Secrets of Sharn - Too Hot to Handle Secret Optional(s)/Mechanic(s)

[Magnus_Arcanis]

Greetings,

You may remember my recent rumblings through Isle of Dread's Dark Secret alternate ending (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3oCUOCpjnc&t) on my twitch channel, Arcanaverse (https://www.twitch.tv/arcanaverse) a few months back.

Post PAX east, I'm hearing some rumblings about a possible secret option for the Masterminds of Sharn raid, Too Hot To Handle (https://ddowiki.com/page/Too_Hot_to_Handle).

I've heard rumors of such things in the past as there were some open ended items/mechanics that were unused or seemingly didn't/don't have a purpose. So, not really sure how much substance there is to these theories, but recently folks have been claiming dev talk, even recent dev talk, about there being something to these rumors.

Not expecting anything on the level of the Dark Secrets, but I'm reaching out for any and all information to see if we can determine that there is indeed something to find. From dev chat sources, lore, odd or unused mechanics, to previously tested mechanics.

To be clear. I'm looking for facts, not guesses or speculation. What did the devs actually say, actual game text, knowledge of game or raid mechanics that do/don't work that may not be well known.

Feel free to post here or join the Discord (https://discord.gg/yPssPn5). Otherwise, join me this Sunday at 4pm est on twitch as we begin the search at twitch.tv/Arcanaverse (https://www.twitch.tv/arcanaverse)

Thanks.
_____
Handy Links:
ThTh Undiscovered Mechanic Master Document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SKjQILpAG5ODC-BOmp_e8vL0WCekgqOcUZyOuhjjNOg/edit?usp=sharing)
Forum Post (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/537929-Secrets-of-Sharn-Too-Hot-to-Handle-Secret-Optional(s)-Mechanic(s)?p=6577979#post6577979)
Wiki (https://ddowiki.com/page/Too_Hot_to_Handle)
Twitch (https://www.twitch.tv/arcanaverse)
Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/@arcanaverse)

[TitusOvid]

Hello all,

the DDO Community Discord (https://discord.com/invite/ddo) opened up a channel for specifically that since about 10 days ago. Feel free to have a look and/or add your facts, ideas and speculations.
Happy hunting to us all!

Cheers,
Titus.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

After a fun weekend of poking around and testing to see what we can find. I believe I've discovered the undiscovered thing that is being rumored.

TLDR: Turn Undead should be use by anyone who can as often as possible.

Its somewhat known that using Turn Undead on a pack of forgewraiths will prevent any who survive from upgrading. What is far less known however is that you don't need to succeed on the turn check to produce a benefit. Paladins, Clerics, and those willing to put points into Exalted Angel's enhancements can make the raid much easier to complete.

Normal Test: Sorc 20 with points in EA for turns
1. Use turn undead on the initial pack. (nothing cowered)
2. destroy a single wraith in the pack
Result = Nothing upgraded

Hard Test: Sorc 20 with points in EA for turns.
1. Use turn undead on the initial pack (nothing cowered)
2. destroy pack with sunburst
Result = One small wraith kept surviving and would upgrade to an orange. Orange named (now immune to instant kill on this difficulty), did not upgraded
3. Follow up, with two orange and a red. Kill 1 orange after re-tagging with turn undead. (nothing cowered)
Result = Other orange wraith did not upgrade to red

All cases, red would refill its hp when those around it were killed.

--------------------------------

So, that's the good stuff. How certain am I that is what the rumor is all about? 75% ish? There are a few factors that keep this from being higher.

The rumor isn't consistent in the community. The only part that is consistent is that there is something we're not doing the makes the raid easier. 4 years of misinformation, vague memory, and lack of sources. When, why, and what was actually said actually makes a big difference. Unfortunately, I've yet to find anything concrete.

That being said, there is enough 'there's something we're not doing' going around to warrant the investigation. However the potential paths is unclear:
1. Undiscovered or incorrectly used mechanic
2. Undiscovered/hidden optional
3. An undiscovered/under utilized tactic (aka player option)
4. Nothing is unknown currently, but was when the raid first came out.

To break down each potential path.

Mechanic
This is the where I'm putting my conclusion in, but there are some other questions in the raid that I don't have an answer for and are mystery.
1. Purple light on the lever puzzle. Quite difficult to test, and I'm not aware of any lore pointing towards it being significant. Which is pretty key for quest/raid mechanics.
2. Lilac Petals collectible from Ruinous Schemes. Frankly there is almost zero information about these. Best I have is a vague memory from someone claiming Lich saying there wasn't time to complete the turn in. shrug.

But to provide some additional evidence for Turn Undead being the thing. The raid dialogue clearly points towards Turn Undead being a prominent mechanic to aid in solving the raid. The misconception that about it only being for success turns I believe kept it out of the public eye as only a few people ever seem to run a turning character. Also, there isn't a visible debuff letting you know that a wraith won't upgrade after being tagged with turn undead.

Optional
Honestly, I straight up personally asked the team and they were kind enough to tell me no.

EDIT: I meant to put more here. Despite the rumor mill claiming hints towards a hidden optional, I was never onboard. Skeletons in the Closet was their first big secret hidden optional. Especially for a raid. This was largely believed to be the case from a Sev Q&A live stream and an interview I did with Torc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaHlWMXTI_0&t=13s). Where the heavy implication was... it was the first.

Also, there isn't any lore pointing towards a secret. Nothing in the dialogue or quests leading up to it that I was able to spot. So the odds that a second chest (or any sort of reward) was never really on the table as far as I'm concerned.

Tactic (player options)
My conclusion also fits into this category. I didn't learn till months later that Turn Undead even prevented upgrades at all. This was despite me testing the mechanic myself on my cleric tank at the time. I just got the whole pack so never noticed. Since were running normal... I even got the oranges. However, there are some open questions I'm sure have been tested in the past but I don't have the answer to.
1. What happens if you charm and put spawn screen on the fanatics?
2. Control Undead angers the wraiths, but I don't know what that means mechanically. What if we spawn screen them?
3. Also, Cold Warlock and now Draconic Epic Moment have the ability to permanently CC mobs. Both were released well after ThTh, but with the 15 wraith ****... seems like a good way to really push the difficulty legitimately. So if the any dev comments that were alluding to a tactic that would make the raid easier were said after these were released... Good chance this is what they were referring to.

No mystery
This still has a large chance of being correct. A few unfinished/cut mechanics is about all we have, but its the timing of comments that really throw things off.

When the raid was released, we struggled to complete normal. Let alone hard or higher. We treated the wraiths as we did in the quests. Whole lot of trying to complete, not so much learning how the mechanics actually work. Most likely it was during this period is when the comment was made, that we were overlooking some mechanics that would make our lives much easier.
1. Lever and trap timing,
2. the fact if you kill the red named that spawns after phase 2 will start phase 3.
3. the importance of the coolant tanks.
4. how you can spam the levers to get the colors to change faster.
etc...

A lot of what we know now didn't come to light until after the nerf happened.

In the end, think I got it. There are some unknown things and only did a weekend's worth of digging, so there is some margin of error. If anyone has any evidence to show otherwise, love to hear it.

Thanks!

[Mamalian]

Let that awful raid die (in a fire).

[Mindos]

Optional
Honestly, I straight up personally asked the team and they were kind enough to tell me no.

Kinda burying the lede here...

[Logicman69]

Forget THTH.. I still want to know what was behind the vault door in Project Nemesis! What is this secret project and why does The Fallen and the devils want it so badly??

[Magnus_Arcanis]

Kinda burying the lede here...

Indeed. If there was something to chase I think they would've been more cagey about it. So I really appreciated the response. That being said, the was more on the table that kind of made this a moot point. Adding the following to the original post:


Despite the rumor mill claiming hints towards a hidden optional, I was never onboard. Skeletons in the Closet was their first big secret hidden optional. Especially for a raid. This was largely believed to be the case from a Sev Q&A live stream and an interview I did with Torc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaHlWMXTI_0&t=13s). Where the heavy implication was... it was the first.

Also, there isn't any lore pointing towards a secret. Nothing in the dialogue or quests leading up to it that I was able to spot. So the odds that a second chest (or any sort of reward) was never really on the table as far as I'm concerned.

[karatemack]

Indeed. If there was something to chase I think they would've been more cagey about it. So I really appreciated the response. That being said, the was more on the table that kind of made this a moot point. Adding the following to the original post:


Despite the rumor mill claiming hints towards a hidden optional, I was never onboard. Skeletons in the Closet was their first big secret hidden optional. Especially for a raid. This was largely believed to be the case from a Sev Q&A live stream and an interview I did with Torc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaHlWMXTI_0&t=13s). Where the heavy implication was... it was the first.

Also, there isn't any lore pointing towards a secret. Nothing in the dialogue or quests leading up to it that I was able to spot. So the odds that a second chest (or any sort of reward) was never really on the table as far as I'm concerned.

If you watch the footage from PAX East, Sev was not willing to comment. The "secret" we all thought/think was in THTH could be the turn mechanic you're mentioning but, as someone who plays Cleric nearly exclusively, I can tell you the mechanic you're describing was not working this way when the raid first launched.

Also- there is dialogue about the Elvish convoy from Aerenal of the Undying Court. Specifically when he says, "All my personnel - no matter the state of their remains - should be accounted for."

I don't think most of the speculation is that there is a second chest... more that there is something that makes the raid far easier to complete.

[1Soulless1]

Indeed. If there was something to chase I think they would've been more cagey about it. So I really appreciated the response. That being said, the was more on the table that kind of made this a moot point. Adding the following to the original post:


Despite the rumor mill claiming hints towards a hidden optional, I was never onboard. Skeletons in the Closet was their first big secret hidden optional. Especially for a raid. This was largely believed to be the case from a Sev Q&A live stream and an interview I did with Torc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaHlWMXTI_0&t=13s). Where the heavy implication was... it was the first.

Also, there isn't any lore pointing towards a secret. Nothing in the dialogue or quests leading up to it that I was able to spot. So the odds that a second chest (or any sort of reward) was never really on the table as far as I'm concerned.


While I was dead in there the other day I was jumping into the lava for fun and profit. Where the skulls spawn was some kind of invisible ledge. Now I didn't try jumping on it while alive. This would also be on the left hand side. I don't know if it's for the skills to spawn on it if you can jump on it while not a stone.

[kmoustakas]

If you watch the footage from PAX East, Sev was not willing to comment. The "secret" we all thought/think was in THTH could be the turn mechanic you're mentioning but, as someone who plays Cleric nearly exclusively, I can tell you the mechanic you're describing was not working this way when the raid first launched.

Also- there is dialogue about the Elvish convoy from Aerenal of the Undying Court. Specifically when he says, "All my personnel - no matter the state of their remains - should be accounted for."

I don't think most of the speculation is that there is a second chest... more that there is something that makes the raid far easier to complete.

This. The first few years of the raid I kept running it with my cleric in hopes of getting the turn undead item and every single time I was explicitly told NOT to turn undead because it turned them into giant forgewraiths. I don't know if the people were simply wrong or they changed the raid in the meantime though.

[karatemack]

While I was dead in there the other day I was jumping into the lava for fun and profit. Where the skulls spawn was some kind of invisible ledge. Now I didn't try jumping on it while alive. This would also be on the left hand side. I don't know if it's for the skills to spawn on it if you can jump on it while not a stone.

Would be nice if there were a way to shut down the elevators so cogs don't spawn.

[Firebreed]

Forget THTH.. I still want to know what was behind the vault door in Project Nemesis! What is this secret project and why does The Fallen and the devils want it so badly??

Preach! *** was up with PN, we have no clue what's going on..

[LightBear]

For what its worth, sunburst kills Forgewraights without them spawning back.

I'm interested to know what happens when players die in the lava.

[Arkat]

I don't think most of the speculation is that there is a second chest... more that there is something that makes the raid far easier to complete.

Agreed. This is the more logical conclusion.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

@SSG team not willing to comment on the 'secret'
Under normal circumstances, this would usually mean that there is something to find. However, I'm told that Torc wasn't at the PAX east meetup. Since he wasn't there, it makes sense to me that other team members weren't able to comment.

@Worker remains potential breadcrumb.
The dialogue about the personnel is refering to Nava.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1089053199689863178/1090289620748599427/THTh_dialogue.PNG

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1089053199689863178/1090289621314834452/thth_completion.PNG

Just in case the pics break.

Grem (the quest giver) has this in his dialogue:
"Speak with the High Priest Mayne Jhaelian" when you get inside. And let me know if you find Nava, will you? All my personnel - no matter the state of their remains - should be accounted for."

After you complete, he says this:
"Bless Kol Korran, I thought this whole venture would have been for nothing. And you found my engineer. Alive, no less!"

@The mechanic not being in place when the raid released.
If we're certain on this, then that most likely move the 'potential' dev hint post raid nerf. Which does make the most sense. "We added a mechanic to make the raid easier that isn't documented in the notes" would fit nicely into the rumor mill.

That being said, the turn mechanic was 100% certain in the raid upon release. I think we just had a misunderstanding of how it worked.

Proof: Strimtom's vid (https://youtu.be/WwXDj5e5CvI?t=20) of our guild's hard run. You can see/hear me use turn undead on a pack contain, 1 yellow 1 orange and 1 red, and the orange named didn't upgrade.

My theory, it was working back on release. The hidden buff is applied to the nearby surviving wraiths detecting/looking to absorb defeated wraiths. Turn undead, suppresses/remove that check. As opposed to dying wraths checking for a nearby friend. Which honestly, think that makes more sense lore wise.

@Sunburst preventing upgrades
If you clear the the whole pack the wraiths can't find a buddy to merge with. So if you mass frog a pack of 6 wraiths and non survive you won't see an upgrade. However, if any wraith in the pack survives the mass kill, they will upgrade (turn undead being an exception of course)

@What happens to players that jump into the lava.
Unsurprisingly, you die. lol. Your stone ports to the centerish of the bottom platform.

@Platform while dead.
Pretty sure this was added later on to prevent a 'reason' if you catch my drift. ;)

@What we're looking for.
We know we're not looking for an optional. At best its a mechanic or tactic. We had someone claim that lilac petals from Ruinous Schemes where dev confirmed not related to ThTh. Leaves the purple light our best chance for something else to be "it".

[Arkat]

@What we're looking for.
We know we're not looking for an optional. At best its a mechanic or tactic. We had someone claim that lilac petals from Ruinous Schemes where dev confirmed not related to ThTh. Leaves the purple light our best chance for something else to be "it".

Any reason to believe the Turn mechanic isn't what you're looking for?

[Reztroll]

Any reason to believe the Turn mechanic isn't what you're looking for?

I do believe cordovan said in a Wednesday livestream a long time ago that it was just turn undead worked in this raid.

[karatemack]

@SSG team not willing to comment on the 'secret'
Under normal circumstances, this would usually mean that there is something to find. However, I'm told that Torc wasn't at the PAX east meetup. Since he wasn't there, it makes sense to me that other team members weren't able to comment.

It wasn't that they weren't able to comment. Sev specifically wouldn't comment. Again- it very well could be that the thing they wouldn't mention is the turn mechanic you think you've discovered.


@Worker remains potential breadcrumb.
The dialogue about the personnel is refering to Nava.

Saying "All my personnel - no matter the state of their remains - should be accounted for." seems like an odd way to refer to a single person. Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but not sure if this is correct either.


@What we're looking for.
We know we're not looking for an optional. At best its a mechanic or tactic. We had someone claim that lilac petals from Ruinous Schemes where dev confirmed not related to ThTh. Leaves the purple light our best chance for something else to be "it".

How do we know we're not looking for an optional? Typically when we discover things, there is some type of confirmation from a dev. I haven't seen anything confirmed yet, so maybe there's still something?

[Magnus_Arcanis]

How do we know we're not looking for an optional? Typically when we discover things, there is some type of confirmation from a dev. I haven't seen anything confirmed yet, so maybe there's still something?



Optional
Honestly, I straight up personally asked the team and they were kind enough to tell me no.



In that no, there isn't an optional.

So again, at best we're looking for a mechanic or tactic.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

Any reason to believe the Turn mechanic isn't what you're looking for?

Good question.

The only other open question left for the raid (as of this moment) is what is the deal with the purple lights on the lever puzzle?

Do they do nothing? Time penalty when you over cycle? Cut iterations of the puzzle? Colorblindness issues? Is there a secret code that clears the room of wraiths? *shrug*

That and without a clear beginning... its tough to know the end has been solved for absolute certain. How the turns actually work fits enough with what I can summarize. Just can't say for 100%. I plan to pay more attention to the raid and check for weird things through my normal playthrough and will revisit if any new information comes to light. Till then, think that's it, but don't let that stop anyone from looking!

[Cordovan]

I am not aware of anything secret or undiscovered in Too Hot to Handle. I believe Sev's comment was along the lines of, "I'm not going to comment on secret content." I appreciate a good tease as much as anyone, but I'd hate to see players dedicate time and resources for a wild goose chase.

[Magnus_Arcanis]

I am not aware of anything secret or undiscovered in Too Hot to Handle. I believe Sev's comment was along the lines of, "I'm not going to comment on secret content." I appreciate a good tease as much as anyone, but I'd hate to see players dedicate time and resources for a wild goose chase.

Can't thank you enough for being considerate.

Puzzles like these can really over take one's life and I for one will sleep better. :)

Thanks again!

[karatemack]

I am not aware of anything secret or undiscovered in Too Hot to Handle. I believe Sev's comment was along the lines of, "I'm not going to comment on secret content." I appreciate a good tease as much as anyone, but I'd hate to see players dedicate time and resources for a wild goose chase.

Well, thanks for putting a pin in it! Off to the next mystery. :P

[Logicman69]

I am not aware of anything secret or undiscovered in Too Hot to Handle. I believe Sev's comment was along the lines of, "I'm not going to comment on secret content." I appreciate a good tease as much as anyone, but I'd hate to see players dedicate time and resources for a wild goose chase.

Speaking of undescovered secrets.... When are we going to find out about Project Nemesis and what is behind that huge **** door!!!!

[Arkat]

I am not aware of anything secret or undiscovered in Too Hot to Handle. I believe Sev's comment was along the lines of, "I'm not going to comment on secret content." I appreciate a good tease as much as anyone, but I'd hate to see players dedicate time and resources for a wild goose chase.

Then a simple statement from you, Sev, or the creator of THTH (Torc?) that answers our question(s) would be much appreciated.

[Arkat]

Well, thanks for putting a pin in it! Off to the next mystery. :P

Except that answer didn't really address the statement by Steelstar (or whomever) that said they were able to do something in-house that allowed them to consistently complete the raid successfully. IIRC, the statement was made very shortly after the raid was released and addressed several posts that complained about the raid difficulty.

That post could have also contained the statement where the Dev told us that at one point, they considered calling the raid "Go Die In a Fire," "Die In a Fire," or something similar. I doubt they were seriously thinking of calling it that, but it was clear they had at least thought of it.

[karatemack]

Except that answer didn't really address the statement by Steelstar (or whomever) that said they were able to do something in-house that allowed them to consistently complete the raid successfully. IIRC, the statement was made very shortly after the raid was released and addressed several posts that complained about the raid difficulty.

That post could have also contained the statement where the Dev told us that at one point, they considered calling the raid "Go Die In a Fire," "Die In a Fire," or something similar. I doubt they were seriously thinking of calling it that, but it was clear they had at least thought of it.

Maybe it's the not-upgrading thing Arcanaverse mentioned?

[Arkat]

Maybe it's the not-upgrading thing Arcanaverse mentioned?

I think that's what it is, too. However, I can't imagine why Cordo couldn't or wouldn't confirm it.

The raid's what, four years old?

Letting the cat out of the bag won't exactly break the raid or result in an undesired "avalanche" of Normal/Hard completions.

[slarden]

Letting the cat out of the bag won't exactly break the raid or result in an undesired "avalanche" of Normal/Hard completions.

To be fair pug groups aren't having trouble completing on normal any more and a reasonably organized party with a few pug spots can handle hard.

The problem with this raid from the start was that it was all about fast boss dps and there were just too many low dps builds out there at the time. The devs teased players were missing something which is why players never stopped looking for what it is they were talking about. As far as I know there were no new discoveries about that raid since the dev comments.

All builds got a boost since then, but some of the lowest single-target builds received the largest increases which effectively solved all the problems with pugging this raid. I mean a party can still blow this raid, but I think it's unlikely they won't be able to recover and complete the next time.

If there is any cheat code for this raid it's sunburst. I remember being told early on not to turn undead because it can fail where sunburst never fails if you have the DC. So this information about turn undead is kind of interesting as a few raid leaders on sarlona would go ballistic if they saw someone turning undead - they wanted sunburst and only sunburst. I guess they were wrong.

If they want to introduce a ftp raid with crazy difficulty I think it's fine, but people spending big $ on an xpac should be able to at least complete a raid on normal even if it takes a few tries. That was not the case with thth - you really needed some people that new how to build for dps to get it done. An average dps group couldn't complete the raid on normal at the time it was released. If they want to make it hard to complete on elite, at mechanics at that level.

[LightBear]

Except that answer didn't really address the statement by Steelstar (or whomever) that said they were able to do something in-house that allowed them to consistently complete the raid successfully. IIRC, the statement was made very shortly after the raid was released and addressed several posts that complained about the raid difficulty.

That post could have also contained the statement where the Dev told us that at one point, they considered calling the raid "Go Die In a Fire," "Die In a Fire," or something similar. I doubt they were seriously thinking of calling it that, but it was clear they had at least thought of it.

First time I did that raid was on R1 as a 12th man for some group of players (one guild) that knew exactly what they needed to do.
The raid was over in less than ten minutes or so.
It was the smoothest run I have ever seen since as no forge wrights merged ever.
Three days after that a PUG was up for a run on Hard.
I joined that one thinking it would be ever faster and smoother than that first run I did.
But nope, I was unpleasantly surprised that we could fail so hard.

[Cordovan]

Then a simple statement from you, Sev, or the creator of THTH (Torc?) that answers our question(s) would be much appreciated.

Get me your specific questions and I can ask around. It sounds like you are asking about strategy?

[Bjond]

Turn Undead [..] How certain am I that is what the rumor is all about? 75% ish?

Thanks for the sleuthing and for posting your findings, reasoning, and speculations. I think you've got it with Turn Undead.

Another point in favor of Turn Undead being the "missing piece" is that Turn is almost universally ignored. Sharn era and later with the new EDs is when SSG started trying to breath new life into bad never-used features.

IMHO, a strong clue should have been woven into Sharn. Maybe part of main sharn story -- so obvious it's ignored; eg. clerics preaching against the wraiths, giving bonus mats for any wraith "turned or killed", etc.. Then we'd look back and think. Duh, they clued us over and over with all the turn-or-kill lines.

Hoping players discover this one in a reasonable time frame meant relying on one of three people game wide (those that use Turn) -- a slim hope indeed.

[karatemack]

Thanks for the sleuthing and for posting your findings, reasoning, and speculations. I think you've got it with Turn Undead.

Another point in favor of Turn Undead being the "missing piece" is that Turn is almost universally ignored. Sharn era and later with the new EDs is when SSG started trying to breath new life into bad never-used features.

IMHO, a strong clue should have been woven into Sharn. Maybe part of main sharn story -- so obvious it's ignored; eg. clerics preaching against the wraiths, giving bonus mats for any wraith "turned or killed", etc.. Then we'd look back and think. Duh, they clued us over and over with all the turn-or-kill lines.

Hoping players discover this one in a reasonable time frame meant relying on one of three people game wide (those that use Turn) -- a slim hope indeed.

I mean, a few of us used Turn Undead (and other abilities) in there from day 1 and all of the wraiths still upgraded. It's neat if it's different now though.

[Arkat]

Get me your specific questions and I can ask around. It sounds like you are asking about strategy?

No, not strategy specifically.

Back when the THTH raid first came out (or shortly thereafter) Steelstar (or one of the other Devs) that said in a forum post that they (SSG employees) were able to do something in-house that allowed them to consistently complete the raid successfully. IIRC, that response was due to several DDO Forum posts that complained about raid difficulty.

This thread puts forth the hypothesis that there is still some "trick" left to find that was enabling the in-house SSG crew to complete the raid fairly easily and consistently. I cannot remember if the post in question mentioned on what difficulty/difficulties they were able to do this or not.


The OP of this thread suggests the Dev that commented was referring to a mechanic that either we haven't found yet (something to do with the purple lights on the color switching puzzles in the upper area of that raid area), OR the fact that Turn Undead (whether successful or not) seems to prevent the Forgewraiths from "upgrading" to orange-named or red-named versions.

Was that Dev referring to either of those? Or were they suggesting something else entirely - maybe another mechanic we haven't seriously considered yet?


EDIT: Sorry for the edits. I wanted to make my post a little more clear.

[Impaqt]

No, not strategy specifically.

Back when the THTH raid first came out (or shortly thereafter) Steelstar (or one of the other Devs) that said in a forum post that they (SSG employees) were able to do something in-house that allowed them to consistently complete the raid successfully. IIRC, that response was due to several DDO Forum posts that complained about raid difficulty.

This thread puts forth the hypothesis that there is still some "trick" left to find that was enabling the in-house SSG crew to complete the raid fairly easily and consistently. I cannot remember if the post in question mentioned on what difficulty/difficulties they were able to do this or not.


The OP of this thread suggests the Dev that commented was referring to a mechanic that either we haven't found yet (something to do with the purple lights on the color switching puzzles in the upper area of that raid area), OR the fact that Turn Undead (whether successful or not) seems to prevent the Forgewraiths from "upgrading" to orange-named or red-named versions.

Was that Dev referring to either of those? Or were they suggesting something else entirely - maybe another mechanic we haven't seriously considered yet?


EDIT: Sorry for the edits. I wanted to make my post a little more clear.

that totally sounds like you are asking what strategy the devs in question were using.

[Arkat]

that totally sounds like you are asking what strategy the devs in question were using.

The Dev I mentioned in the post above distinctly implied there was a mechanic involved that made the raid simpler to complete. Whether it was how the Forgewraiths reacted to Turn Undead or how the purple colors in the puzzles may have affected the trash, Forgewraiths, or skulls, we're talking about a mechanic of the raid.

Now if there's a "safe" spot that all the SSG employees knew about and gathered there to attack the boss Forgewraith with impunity, then we'd be talking about a strategy (e.g. stand in a certain place until X happens).

[Cashiry]

To be fair pug groups aren't having trouble completing on normal any more and a reasonably organized party with a few pug spots can handle hard.

The problem with this raid from the start was that it was all about fast boss dps and there were just too many low dps builds out there at the time. The devs teased players were missing something which is why players never stopped looking for what it is they were talking about. As far as I know there were no new discoveries about that raid since the dev comments.

All builds got a boost since then, but some of the lowest single-target builds received the largest increases which effectively solved all the problems with pugging this raid. I mean a party can still blow this raid, but I think it's unlikely they won't be able to recover and complete the next time.

If there is any cheat code for this raid it's sunburst. I remember being told early on not to turn undead because it can fail where sunburst never fails if you have the DC. So this information about turn undead is kind of interesting as a few raid leaders on sarlona would go ballistic if they saw someone turning undead - they wanted sunburst and only sunburst. I guess they were wrong.

If they want to introduce a ftp raid with crazy difficulty I think it's fine, but people spending big $ on an xpac should be able to at least complete a raid on normal even if it takes a few tries. That was not the case with thth - you really needed some people that new how to build for dps to get it done. An average dps group couldn't complete the raid on normal at the time it was released. If they want to make it hard to complete on elite, at mechanics at that level.


I’m not sure who you have been raiding with on Sarlona. But I take my turn cleric in many pug THTH raids and turn all day long and typically have the highest kill count in either normal or hard settings. I have been doing so for 3 plus years. After my return to the game, my guild mates preferred the sunburst method, however when I showed them what turning could do they welcomed it as it made the raid that much smoother on N/H.

my cleric can turn in R1 THTH. however she doesn’t have the reaper points to be viable yet in that setting.

On a side note: orange wraiths who are warded do cower for a minute when they have been turned.

[Cordovan]

No, not strategy specifically.

Back when the THTH raid first came out (or shortly thereafter) Steelstar (or one of the other Devs) that said in a forum post that they (SSG employees) were able to do something in-house that allowed them to consistently complete the raid successfully. IIRC, that response was due to several DDO Forum posts that complained about raid difficulty.

This thread puts forth the hypothesis that there is still some "trick" left to find that was enabling the in-house SSG crew to complete the raid fairly easily and consistently. I cannot remember if the post in question mentioned on what difficulty/difficulties they were able to do this or not.


The OP of this thread suggests the Dev that commented was referring to a mechanic that either we haven't found yet (something to do with the purple lights on the color switching puzzles in the upper area of that raid area), OR the fact that Turn Undead (whether successful or not) seems to prevent the Forgewraiths from "upgrading" to orange-named or red-named versions.

Was that Dev referring to either of those? Or were they suggesting something else entirely - maybe another mechanic we haven't seriously considered yet?


EDIT: Sorry for the edits. I wanted to make my post a little more clear.

I don't think the comment was meant to indicate a mechanic that hadn't been found yet. At the time players were largely just trying to DPS brute force their way through the raid rather than work through the mechanics, and that comment was (I think) intended to be a general indicator that the mechanics of the raid will help with completion.

[Arkat]

I don't think the comment was meant to indicate a mechanic that hadn't been found yet. At the time players were largely just trying to DPS brute force their way through the raid rather than work through the mechanics, and that comment was (I think) intended to be a general indicator that the mechanics of the raid will help with completion.

Ok, thank you for the response.

Can I ask just one more question on this, then?

What is the purpose of the Violet lights in the four "change the color" puzzles?

[Sqrlmonger]

I don't think the comment was meant to indicate a mechanic that hadn't been found yet. At the time players were largely just trying to DPS brute force their way through the raid rather than work through the mechanics, and that comment was (I think) intended to be a general indicator that the mechanics of the raid will help with completion.

Is there Dev awareness that this raid and Hunter & Hunted tend to generate considerable lag spikes? They occur right when you need to take quick and decisive action to prevent mechanics from spiraling out of control in both raids.

I'm not sure if Devs would see this in testing if it was done on a development server without real-world demands.

[slarden]

I don't think the comment was meant to indicate a mechanic that hadn't been found yet. At the time players were largely just trying to DPS brute force their way through the raid rather than work through the mechanics, and that comment was (I think) intended to be a general indicator that the mechanics of the raid will help with completion.

I think this is a misunderstanding of the problem groups were having. Groups understood and executed on the mechanics very quickly. The problem is that if the group didn't have strong dps to bring down the boss fast they would get overwhelmed and fail.

That is still the case, but in general dps is much better and especially the low end of single-target dps. The quest is very easy to complete with high dps and much harder without it. Now the boss is down in seconds the final time it comes up so the mechanics causing pug groups to fail aren't even seen any more except on higher difficulties.

[cdbd3rd]

....I appreciate a good tease as much as anyone, but I'd hate to see players dedicate time and resources for a wild goose chase.

Like when several of us were abusing Guck when Searing Heights was released hoping for a new version of a Muckbane type weapon? :D :p

(No one would confirm/deny whether any new weapon had been added...)