Old caster trying to make a melee - will you help me?

[Ultinoob]

I have played a caster druid for a long time now and i am really happy with it.

I am trying to make a melee bear build that hopefully can tank in r10 at cap.
He is a first lifer without reaper points.

I wanted to do a centered bear build going for 6 monk and atleast enough druid for dire bear form.
I am level 25 now from ottos boxes.

My question is what should my stats be at level 25 and at cap?
I am talking about melee power, damage, doublestrike, ac, prr, mrr and hp.
A gear setup would be nice.

I tried soloing lord of dust on r1 a level 21 quest and died to the end boss even though i had hirelings.
Is this a stupid split?

I want to make a bear that much is for sure.

I really wanna be able to tank at r10 at cap. Is this even possible with a first lifer?

Any advice is appreciated.

[slarden]

Check out hardcore builds as well, there were quite a few bear-based tank builds on hardcore the past several seasons.

I personally find paladin 20 the easiest and best first-life tank build due to unyielding sovereignty (get out of jail card) and the high saves, immunities, lay on hands, etc. You can also get high ac, prr, mrr, hp #s. It doesn't sound like you are going that direction so I won't provide the target #s you are looking for there, but if you decide to try out another tank build I recommend paladin 20.

Once you get 21 reaper points you will feel much stronger as that is a huge chunk of hp.

Voodu has a caster tank druid if you want to try that out. He does really well with that build and you can watch his streams to see how he plays it.

[C-Dog]

Check out hardcore builds as well, there were quite a few bear-based tank builds on hardcore the past several seasons.
o https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533145-Hardcore-Season-6-Build-Guides-by-Strimtom?p=6528062&viewfull=1#post6528062 (This will get you started)


Voodu has a caster tank druid if you want to try that out. He does really well with that build and you can watch his streams to see how he plays it.
o https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427398-Gingerspyce-s-caster-healer-quasi-tank-build?p=5124460&viewfull=1#post5124460

[Ultinoob]

Thx guys.

Appreciated :)

[Bjond]

centered bear build [..]soloing lord of dust on r1 a level 21 quest and died to the end boss

Something is going wrong. First life melee should blow through that fight assuming it's fully geared and tomed. If you're skimping on gear, you'll definitely have issues.

A centered bear sounds interesting, but Ursa's Protector "Requires bear form, AND shield OR medium/heavy armor", all of which will uncenter you unless bear is somehow special in that regard.

You're going to be restricted to playing essentially as a tanky melee DPS. It can work, but it's definitely harder than a more traditional tank. With cloth armor, make SURE you maximize your dodge. I've tanked R10 in cloth, but doing so does require a healer that's up for it. It's harder to heal a dodgy tank because incoming damage is much less predictable; that particular character has
about 50% dodge 200 PRR 90'ish MRR and a full set of %absorb. Cloth in high reaper wants gear to increase the MRR cap (roughly 100 MRR is fine). Non-Shield in high reaper wants a full set of %absorb in high reaper, too (earth & air, fire & water) because 100'ish MRR just isn't enough. Deflect arrows and a Heart of Suulomades aren't quite mandatory, but I don't tank without them.


I really wanna be able to tank at r10 at cap. Is this even possible with a first lifer?.

Yes. I don't know bear from experience, but I've done it with several types of builds: classic paladin/fighter/artificer (steel-maiden type build leveling as 2H dps swapped to S+B @ cap), monk/rogue Qstaff, swash/rogue SDK, Barb/Swash/Rogue. All the builds that do meaningful/useful DPS are light or cloth armor. Classic "fat" tanks don't do ANY dps at all or so little that it's essentially pointless to even try to DPS -- that's about 99% of all tank builds you'll find posted on the forums.

Here are a couple build/tank maxims: always maximize MDB & dodge. Never use a tower shield.

If you want to try a melee DPS+Tank build, none of them "tank" like you see first time tanks do it; ie. you don't intim and cower behind block. Intim and strafe. The goal is just to keep agro off off others long enough for the group to kill things. You don't have to do that by letting things hit you. Strimtom has a video that highlights his "poison bear" build where he "tanks" by grabbing agro and running behind trees or jumping and strafing. That's the gist, but it can be done with very little actual movement (keeping things still helps your melee groupies). Tilomere had a couple nice ones posted with his "flower" builds, but he took them down (nb: they still work fine).

If you're new to tanking, I'd highly recommend starting with the classic fat tank. It's not much fun, but it is a LOT easier to build and play (PainSteeler's U57 Steel Maiden (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/535618-Steelmaiden-U57-Update) or Tronko's Fun Bear Tank (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/516717-Reaper-Endgame-18-2-Bear-Tank?p=6427876&viewfull=1#post6427876)).

You probably don't want to level those as a tank, but as a DPS and then swap to playing tank only at cap. There's just zero need for a tank sub-cap. My ultra-squishy ranged with no PLs tanks R1 just fine while leveling. Now and then I run into folks that try to tank&turtle sub-cap and it looks frustrating. Everyone yanks agro off them and they end up more or less ignored in group.

[Ultinoob]

Yes i did everything wrong the first time. i tried making him into a tank and not dps at that level. I had no real gear.

I changed a few things. Gave him some gear and made him more dps focused. Now he is doing allright, but it still takes a lot more time to kill mobs than on my caster.

I was able to do the quest and catacombs and druids chain on r1.

With regards to ursars stance i get +25% hp from self defense in henshin. i can live without the others.

Thing is i can get +40% ac bonus just from stances. Bear form gives 15% +5% from perfect natural fighting and then another 20% from monk earth stance.
Then there is gear for 15% and combat expertise which gets me to 65% ac boost.

I am still not sure this is gonna work but i am giving it another go.

[Thumbed_Servant]

I have played a caster druid for a long time now and i am really happy with it.

I am trying to make a melee bear build that hopefully can tank in r10 at cap.
He is a first lifer without reaper points.

I wanted to do a centered bear build going for 6 monk and atleast enough druid for dire bear form.
I am level 25 now from ottos boxes.

My question is what should my stats be at level 25 and at cap?
I am talking about melee power, damage, doublestrike, ac, prr, mrr and hp.
A gear setup would be nice.

I tried soloing lord of dust on r1 a level 21 quest and died to the end boss even though i had hirelings.
Is this a stupid split?

I want to make a bear that much is for sure.

I really wanna be able to tank at r10 at cap. Is this even possible with a first lifer?

Any advice is appreciated.

Is this a joke? You want to play at the highest difficulty at the end game with no past lives no Reaper Points? Really? Put in the work, get the past lives that add to your PRR and MRR and so many other aspects of the character.

Yes BUILD and GEAR make a difference, but the design of the game is NOT for first-life-no-reaper-point toons to be able to do Reaper 10 at any level of the game. The time you are taking to post to forums asking for oxymoronic realities and scratching your head over your gear and build could better be spent playing the game to acquire past lives and reaper points by playing lower reaper levels.

Posted in all sincerity

[slarden]

Yes i did everything wrong the first time. i tried making him into a tank and not dps at that level. I had no real gear.

I changed a few things. Gave him some gear and made him more dps focused. Now he is doing allright, but it still takes a lot more time to kill mobs than on my caster.

I was able to do the quest and catacombs and druids chain on r1.

With regards to ursars stance i get +25% hp from self defense in henshin. i can live without the others.

Thing is i can get +40% ac bonus just from stances. Bear form gives 15% +5% from perfect natural fighting and then another 20% from monk earth stance.
Then there is gear for 15% and combat expertise which gets me to 65% ac boost.

I am still not sure this is gonna work but i am giving it another go.

At least on paladin I was tier 5 KOTC leveling all the way to cap and with 2 cleaves + the bonus dps + holy retribution + strikethrough with dwarven axe I was able to deal with mobs well while leveling and bosses aren't super tough while leveling. We leveled up epics on R10s and I actually led kill count in a few quests due mostly to holy retribution lol. I am not sure that there is an equivalent setup for a bear tank.

In general, there is a massive dps penalty for using a shield with a melee and very little for a caster. This make is easier to build a tankish caster that can still do solid dps although the actual tank abilities tend to be much weaker than a traditional tank.

I built a warlock acoltyte of the skin 12, fighter 6, 2 wizard caster tank tier 5 stalwart defender and was able to get some beefy defensive #s compared to pure warlock 20 ES tank, but dps was still weaker than I hoped- but better than my paladin in tier 5 sacred defender and I was able to solo R7s with it reasonably well, but a little slower than I would like.


Is this a joke? You want to play at the highest difficulty at the end game with no past lives no Reaper Points? Really? Put in the work, get the past lives that add to your PRR and MRR and so many other aspects of the character.

Yes BUILD and GEAR make a difference, but the design of the game is NOT for first-life-no-reaper-point toons to be able to do Reaper 10 at any level of the game. The time you are taking to post to forums asking for oxymoronic realities and scratching your head over your gear and build could better be spent playing the game to acquire past lives and reaper points by playing lower reaper levels.

Posted in all sincerity

I am not sure about the build posted, but a first life paladin tank is fine for most R10s if properly geared and with a balanced party. Most people posting lfms for can complete R10s with the people they have and are just filling out the group. I think it's fine to join and just let them know you are a first life tank still working on your first 21 reaper pts and most groups will be fine with it. If not wish them well and drop group.

R10 pugs I would avoid on a first life paladin tank that is new to tanking (at cap) unless the group drops the skull:

- Slave Lords Chain (really just the last 2, but why join for just one)
- Temple of Elemental Evil Chain, although I haven't tested it since they made some fixes
- Soul Survivor
- I would avoid joining raid groups on reaper in general until you are comfortable tanking difficult content - on any skull - reaper scaling is tougher on raids
- Best laid plans
- Smash and Burn
- Tavern Brawl if not cheesed
- Legendary Shroud flagging
- Age of Rage and Toxic Treatment. Age of Rage isn't that bad, but pugs tend to make the end fight much harder than it needs to be

I am not sure about Isle of Dread, but it seems ok. I am also not sure about the re-tuned black and blue and Newcomers. I would have put on avoid list prior to changes.

Usually in our R10s we have 2-4 and often closer to 4 people working on getting an alt to 21 reaper points. It works out fine, although we have more deaths compared to everyone bringing their best alt and sometimes it gets a little messy with a few weaker alts, but we recover fine.

If you find the build isn't working on R10s don't keep tanking R10s, but I would think a bear tank should be fine if a paladin tank works fine.

[Stradivarius]

In terms of quest difficulty the general rule of thumb (some exceptions) is by release date; that is

IoD about equal to Salt in terms of difficulty, harder than Sharn which is harder than Feywild which is harder than Ravenloft which is harder than FR content (most of it) which is approx equal to most "old eberron" content.

Also the best tanks ironically are caster based (unless you have a lot of PLs and gear). Check this out: https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427398-Gingerspyce-s-caster-healer-quasi-tank-build?p=5124460&viewfull=1#post5124460

[PedXing20]

Also the best tanks ironically are caster based
You really have a hate on for casters don't you.

[Stradivarius]

You really have a hate on for casters don't you.

what I said was true.

[slarden]

You really have a hate on for casters don't you.

It's also not accurate. I have tried many different casters tanks but always go back to a melee tank due to higher AC, prr, mrr, hp and most importantly threat. I mean with alot of past lifes you can make many builds work as a tank, but it doesn't make them better.

Caster tanks are decent for soloing - better soloing than melee tanks since dps is a bit higher due to less of a dps penalty for using a shield. Players should be able to push skulls a bit higher on a caster tank than a caster due to defenses, but a significant amount of threat only works with melee attacks. At least in the limited push raiding I've done, I've never seen a caster tank as main tank. They can serve well as off-tanks.

I play all builds but my preferred tank is a paladin melee even with a bunch of past lifes and reaper points, although in raids I often see Barbarian tanks instead.

[Bjond]

no past lives no Reaper Points? Really? Put in the work, get the past lives

This one is mostly safe to ignore. Go ahead and try it with no PLs. It is possible, but it also takes effort and planning. Many, including me, will jump directly into R8~10 at cap on a first life regardless of the type (ranged, melee, tank, and caster). However, at best you'll just be a solid contributor. You'll need a good group to do R10s and you won't be carrying it. From there, you'll learn exactly which PLs you want to focus on first.

What worked for me was to focus DPS for dps-intended characters, followed by Hamp & PRR. MRR in PL form is only nice if you are running medium or plate and using a shield or you can't hit your cap in Light without it. My tank-intended char skipped the dps boosts and went directly for Hamp/PRR/MRR, but I wish I had done DPS first and skipped MRR. It ended up not needing the MRR since it tanks in light-armor melee dps gear -- I wasn't sure that's where it would end up -- thought it might end up S&B in Med/Hvy where the extra MRR would have mattered.


with alot of past lifes you can make many builds work as a tank, but it doesn't make them better

One of the most useful types of tank is the heal+tank because it's a one-stop shop. It can work with any other mix of 5. Do that with a classic non-dps tank or a dps-capable tank and unless the burst damage is overwhelming, you still need to add a healer. Heal+tanks usually use a caster base, though I know one that is doing great with SF.Paladin as a base.

Personally, I find my current dodgy melee dps tanks to be immensely fun. Slarden seems to like his Paladin S&B tanks best. Stradivarius likes his caster tanks. While they all get the job done, it's certainly more fun to group with players that like their current build than grumps forcing themselves into something just because the forums are buzzing on it.

Here are some tips for leveling as opposed to final capped play:


Heroic: go wild on dps & runspeed, OK to ignore defense until last. This is why DPS PLs are nice -- they speed you out of heroics.
L20~22: Mantle = FOTW (only). Can keep you alive without a hire (or after it dies) and why Hamp is so nice to focus first after DPS.
L23~28: Mantle = EA (only). A better version of FOTW Mantle. Can mostly ignore needing to heal yourself and just run+dps your way to cap.
L29+: now you get to try your intended cap build

If you have the right build for it, FOTW Primal Scream with Unquenchable Rage @ T4 can be enough healing to swap EA out for something more appropriate. If your build has Displace, SD:Mantle is particularly nice -- it stacks with Displace, making it useful even in R10.

My dps tanks make use of two types of CC: salt and AE/trip (via Qstaff). I leveled my stick build before Tabaxi, so it only had one trip every 20s. From what I can tell, Tabaxi trip is essentially the same as Rogue/TA but on a much shorter CD. Salt is via Labrythine or Timeshard + SDK Chains or WWA. I feel chains is a tiny bit nicer due to bigger area, but WWA has a much shorter CD. Salt is nice enough on a tank that I gave up 15x5 Handaxe DPS for 15x3 with salt.

[slarden]

One of the most useful types of tank is the heal+tank because it's a one-stop shop. It can work with any other mix of 5. Do that with a classic non-dps tank or a dps-capable tank and unless the burst damage is overwhelming, you still need to add a healer. Heal+tanks usually use a caster base, though I know one that is doing great with SF.Paladin as a base.

I have a 17 fvs / 3 paladin tank as well that I use as an off-tank and/or healer for raiding. It's solid for many purposes.

[Ultinoob]

Thank you guys for the info.

I am gonna give it another go.

My ac i have calculated to about 250 and 33 dodge...

Let's see if it works.

[slarden]

Thank you guys for the info.

I am gonna give it another go.

My ac i have calculated to about 250 and 33 dodge...

Let's see if it works.

I am not trying to be a downer here, but I think you want a higher AC on an R10 tank although I haven't done specific testing with 250, but I've had non-tank characters around 200 and it's nothing like having 350 in terms of mitigation. A better target is 350. Even though you may not always need 350 you will want a swap weapon loaded with AC as certain enemies like doom reapers are much easier with a high AC.

Here is 350 on a first life paladin. With past lifes and the AC multipliers you get almost 100 AC which allows you to make compromises elsewhere easier.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1povYCS9CjyBhzrAfaEzVrDeeXX8-TqBw0MLGQ1bdEpo/edit?usp=sharing

Dwarf is a good race that provides hp and AC if you can fit in the AP.

You hear alot of mixed feedback here on the forums about AC. I can tell you from tanking hundreds and hundreds of R10s that AC absolutely matters for quests if you get it high enough - maybe not for high R raids - but it's great mitigation for R10 quests and specifically for doom reapers which isn't always a big deal with high dps, but sometimes you get 2 on you and sometimes 3. Dooms are super easy when they are mostly missing you.

[Bjond]

around 200 and it's nothing like having 350 in terms of mitigation.

I can second this thought. IMHO, AC just barely starts to be helpful at cap around 250, but you won't really notice until 350+. My tank's first life started out as a modified version of the Steel Maiden build, altered a bit for leveling as THF with swap to S&B Tank at cap. It had about 420 AC. It VERY nice in quests, since (collectively) trash is far more dangerous than bosses.

However, that character ended up raid-parked where AC is uh, "hit or miss". Some raid bosses simply ignore AC and always hit. Others seem to have almost no accuracy and my tank would rarely get hit at all. It was comically frustrating to go from yawn to "HEAL ME!" based on the raid. So, I rebuilt it as a tank+dps. It uses a mix of PRR, Dodge, and Absorbs now.