Let's be honest: DDO Business Model is awful

[Targal]

When DDO is compared to other game's BM, it's clearly awful, even since 2009? (when DDO Store system started.)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VIP system

VIP or subscription system is supposed to:
- not really necessary for new players
- a big advantages for old players

Meanwhile, DDO is:
- new players should subscription to access 'dungeons' (even if SSG released almost everything for free during the pandemic)
- old players don't have to get subscription because they might have bought everything from DDO store
- old players wouldn't want to lose their ability to buy adventure packs from DDO store because of their subscription status.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adventure pack system


It also goes badly with VIP system.
- old players bought everything
- new players would be supposed to buy these, but it's hell too a lot of packs!! why would they be interested to buy one? They're even supposed to buy expansions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of expansions


Let's say you're a new player and should buy important stuff:


Trove pack: $60
Sharn: $40
Feywild: $40
Saltmarsh: $20
Isle of Dread: $40

total: $200 + $20 (Tax 10%) = total $220!


Okay, this doesn't look right. If you buy a package of a single game, It can provide a lot of playtimes.
but DDO expansions are... a bit weird for that purpose.
I know these are sometimes discounted though... but seeing this price wouldn't make new players to be attracted.


I mean, "selling expansions" IS FINE. but it shouldn't be dumping like this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luxury items

"Luxury" items are something fancy or very convenient - including exp pots.
But due to the awful history of Turbine (anniversay card event) and SSG (dupe issue 1~2 years ago), exp pots are extremely generated and people won't buy exp pots, but also it's a bit expensive.

but also cosmetics are awful.
DDO store cosmetics are awful too.

old players don't have anything to buy because they might have bought every adventure packs.
exp pots, otto, things else are actually not helpful for this because it only shortens your time.
then SSG should suggest that players can't get through their plenty of TIME.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daily Rolling system

It's a hell mess. It's zero motivation for the lottery. They really should know how to be evil for this.
Just dumping things into 100 gold roll doesn't mean you can be evil.

some MMO typically tries 'seasonal lottery' (i.e. Elder Scrolls Online)
but also, it shouldn't tell which roll you got - but 1d100 is kinda a signature for D&D, but I don't know. The current form doesn't look nice to me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bonus DP by favor


It might be clever when the game had not many adventures, but for this state, no, it's bad.
This should be changed too.



DP vs Astral shard

Typically, Astral Shard should be given for free, and DP shouldn't be given for free, in my opinion.
They're doing these reversed.
I mean, the purpose of DP and Astral shards is really weirdly designed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Overall:
- new players feel uncomfortable buying stuff because they don't know they would want to play more.
- new players will often meet cases 'annoying them' if they're not VIP.
- Even if new players subscripted VIP, they'll get annoyed because they didn't buy a lot of expansions.
- but new players are required to buy a lot of stuff in DDO - which makes them p*ssed off. Why would they play DDO by paying these **** money?

- old players don't have anything to buy because they have bought everything they're required.
- VIP isn't really attractive to old players because it's just exp subscription.
- old players can potentailly get a lot of DPs because of their TR'ing
- due to the generating DPs by TR'ing, old players don't have to buy DDO points often.
- meanwhile old players don't have things to buy in DDO store




That's all I can wrote for now - I might have forgotten something.
So, the whole BM of DDO is really really mess and awful.
Putting more benefits to VIP isn't only the way to go. SSG should CHANGE EVERYTHING.

although these were all made when BM theory is well researched, but it shouldn't be kept forever.

[magaiti]

BM = bad manners

I only have 2 issues with VIP:
1) prevents buying content on discount, which is a big fu to customers.
2) the only thing worth paying for is xp bonus, but 10% is not enough to justify the cost, at least for me

XP pots are power, not luxury, as it speeds up accruing PLs.

Daily Rolls are lootboxes, fwiw

Giving away DP for playing the game is an incentive for f2p players to play the game. The more players the better.
Not giving DP in-game will not increase DP sales proportionaly, it's Lost Sales fallacy.

From my experience, new players tend to have the wrong idea on which things are worth/not worth buying (such as veteran status or 32 point builds)
And either spend money on those not worth buying or get scared away, thinking these things are a paywall they are not willing to overcome.

[mikarddo]

The main issue is that it is so very **** expensive for someone new to join the game and play with existing players.

Unless you have pretty much all expansions you will very soon feel left out as you cannot join the groups or raids your friends and doing.

That is the main issue - and part of the reason I would never consider inviting real world friends to play DDO.

DDO needs an affordable option that buys ALL current expansion and quest access. Not all the other goodies from the higher tiers in the expansions but plain access.

[gravisrs]

Still DDO is one of the best revenue per player product in EG7 hands :)


But you are right, it could be better than this.


IMO few small change will get it to the modern standards:
- make all expansions content be a part of VIP (just the quests, not the goodies)
- consolidate all packs (cheapest version) to one $30-$40 trove (that is updated every time new expansion is released BUT not retroactively, if you bought trove with last expansion, you won't get the newest one)
- keep individual collector editions (upgrades) as they are
- if you don't want to bring back daily gold rolls to VIP's - at least give em 5-10 shards every day so they can roll it themselves every few days (or spend it elsewhere)

[Sylvado]

2) the only thing worth paying for is xp bonus, but 10% is not enough to justify the cost, at least for me


I have no need for the XP boost, I want to play the game and I am not in a hurry for past lives. I have one character that has completionist and only once. No Epic completions. VIP value for me is open on elite, saga skip, and 500 points. What I lost was the adventure packs so that is the only drop in value.

So keep in mind that the value is different for different people.

[DaviMOC]

For me it used to be the best f2p/ freemium model I ever seen.

As a f2p you can buy all content including expansions except the latest one that is not mandatory as in other games by just playing the game in a reasonable frequency.
Never saw something like it in anywhere else.

A starting investment would be good for a healthy and enjoyable experience and for that I would say trove or vip.

VIP is great for someone whos starting and cant or dont want to buy expansions. With those first 1k favor bonus per server+ vip you can buy most expansions.

For me that model is getting worse everyday as its shifting over microtransactions and power selling. Game design is compromised by the need for making the store more atractive.
It used to be enough to be vip and/or have all the content. Now, every update they bring another trick to push you to the store.

[mikarddo]

VIP is great for someone whos starting and cant or dont want to buy expansions. With those first 1k favor bonus per server+ vip you can buy most expansions.


Thats the issue. VIP isnt great for someone new. If I ask a friend to join DDO and they only have VIP they wont be able to run half of the quests my group runs. No Ravenloft, Sharn, Isle of Dread etc. is a huge handicap in terms of being able to play with existing players. Not to mention not being able to join quite alot of raids.

As for your suggestion to run 1k+ favor on every server... There is no way anyone new to the game should be asked to do so. If you start on DDO you should focus on one server, making friends, getting into a guild, establishing yourself - not mindlessly running favor on each server.

A $40 purchase max + VIP really need to allow access to all current quests, raids, challenges and raids (but not future). Not races, trees etc, but new players need to be able to run with everyone else in order to experience the game.

[DaviMOC]

Thats the issue. VIP isnt great for someone new. If I ask a friend to join DDO and they only have VIP they wont be able to run half of the quests my group runs. No Ravenloft, Sharn, Isle of Dread etc. is a huge handicap in terms of being able to play with existing players. Not to mention not being able to join quite alot of raids.

As for your suggestion to run 1k+ favor on every server... There is no way anyone new to the game should be asked to do so. If you start on DDO you should focus on one server, making friends, getting into a guild, establishing yourself - not mindlessly running favor on each server.



That is exactly what I did back in 2012 but I guess that is the mindset back there not in the times of tiktok entertainment .
Só i believe you're right to Hook New players they need to join today and be doing the hot stuff tomorrow with the smallest learning curve ever .

[Stradivarius]

curious. I wonder how many players are genuinely new new and how many are just returning?

[archest]

Feywild: $40
Saltmarsh: $20
Isle of Dread: $40

Feywild is a repeat of levels 3-5 and no help to premium players if added for leveling ( but it is epic addons)
not sure of saltmarsh and Isla of the dread I dont have them yet.
waiting on the $10 mark for saltmarsh it will get there maybe another year.
in the mean time I have enough for leveling it would be for equipment and additional content.
though I dont have them are they really an expansion pack or an adventure pack?
ok the sale to buy them for equipment and augments to expand access to those items which aren't available in other adventure packs.
there are non premium, access with vip only adventure packs.
the coupon code gave away a lot of old content to premium players.
but for a new player,

access to the trove is a must for access to evening star.
then the choice is VIP or start buying adventure packs.
Fey is a good expansion pack world. but like i said it repeats levels 3-5 heroics
not a lot of help to new premium players.
so VIP access is next for heroic leveling 3 - 20
and more epic /legendary content.
or
The Giant hold adventure pack
it's popular
levels 13 to 16 with epic content
access to augments with relic trade in
which is an upgrade from only remnants in the hall of hero's.
if your collecting for crafting you will regret trading collectables for augments at the vendors)

Giant hold is accessible with VIP
Vale is accessible with VIP
there is a lot of content access able with VIP if you haven't had access to the free coupon code.

at this point the better bet for the newest of players who dont own any content and havent had access to the free coupon code is the trove 1st and then vip

Trove $60 > value of a new multiplayer video game for PC.
VIP $15 > I think there's a discounted annual cost say $150

$210 the first year to be real comfortable in access to leveling content and LFM group play.
$150 each year after words with parodic purchase of sale item expansions.
if they ever offer another free coupon jump on it then move to premium access if you like.

I think they should add more expansion content to the trove.
( personally I would like to see Gianthold added for leveling access)
as the reasonable expectation would be the ability to level 13 to 30. $65.00.


on a last note: I usually spend 25.00 a year to maintain the game, I'm a premium player been playing for a while and have most of the content available (missing some VIP access adventure packs and the last 2 expansion packs) I had purchased most of the access to the adventure packs which were given out in the free coupon before it had been handed out the 1st time. but not all so I benefited from it. points and expansions.

It was the vip access only adventure packs which were included in the free coupon code giveaways.

[Sylvado]

In the end, as I stated before, F2P ruined online gaming. Go back to a flat subscription fee for all players.

[Stradivarius]

In the end, as I stated before, F2P ruined online gaming. Go back to a flat subscription fee for all players.

Agreed but they make way too much money from "free" 2 play.

[archest]

a new player subscription plan which includes the Trove as a purchased expansion on the account.
$189.00 for the 1st year.

[archest]

In the end, as I stated before, F2P ruined online gaming. Go back to a flat subscription fee for all players.

most people paid for the game and pay for internet access to play it multiplayer..
its never free to play a multiplayer game online .
pay to play is a tax on your internet access.

[Sylvado]

most people paid for the game and pay for internet access to play it multiplayer..
its never free to play a multiplayer game online .
pay to play is a tax on your internet access.

Perfect example of entitlement. Internet access give you internet access, it does not entitle you to any content on the internet.

[Fisto_Mk_I]

In the end, as I stated before, F2P ruined online gaming. Go back to a flat subscription fee for all players.

Exactly opposite, and your statement clearly wrong. It's why all online games currently have f2p parts, include all who begin with mandatory subscription model.

[DaviMOC]

Sub used to be great offering a Fair and equal experience to all but can be a barrier for starters ando also proven to be less lucrative than free models . People Will hate the sub model games even if Its f2p version would be much worse and promote bad experience such as an atractive store that boils down being way more expensive than Just paying the subscription.

[hit_fido]

There's no player, save for some absurd (and perhaps rich) edge case, who's going to drop $200 just to start playing DDO. The price of expansions are not a barrier to entry. People who try this game out are going to jump in for free and run around Korthos/Island for 4 hours or more just getting used to the game and how you play and how you find quests, then they might spend several hours in the harbor. Then they might start all over just to see how a caster seems versus a melee for a while before deciding what to focus on. At that point they're either hooked by the unique feel of DDO (a first person shooter Duke Nukem mixed with Ultima Online wrapped in a pseudo six ability/d20 system) and since they can't find that anywhere else they'll eventually start buying into more content - or they're turned off by the system and seek out some more generic WOW-esque modern MMO.

[Sylvado]

There's no player, save for some absurd (and perhaps rich) edge case, who's going to drop $200 just to start playing DDO. The price of expansions are not a barrier to entry. People who try this game out are going to jump in for free and run around Korthos/Island for 4 hours or more just getting used to the game and how you play and how you find quests, then they might spend several hours in the harbor. Then they might start all over just to see how a caster seems versus a melee for a while before deciding what to focus on. At that point they're either hooked by the unique feel of DDO (a first person shooter Duke Nukem mixed with Ultima Online wrapped in a pseudo six ability/d20 system) and since they can't find that anywhere else they'll eventually start buying into more content - or they're turned off by the system and seek out some more generic WOW-esque modern MMO.

I wouldn't and I have a comfortable income, but everyone has their own values, look at the prices paid to go to the Super Bowl. In the early days of gaming when it was by the hour there were people with monthly bills in four figures.

[boredGamer]

There's no player, save for some absurd (and perhaps rich) edge case, who's going to drop $200 just to start playing DDO. The price of expansions are not a barrier to entry. People who try this game out are going to jump in for free and run around Korthos/Island for 4 hours or more just getting used to the game and how you play and how you find quests, then they might spend several hours in the harbor. Then they might start all over just to see how a caster seems versus a melee for a while before deciding what to focus on. At that point they're either hooked by the unique feel of DDO (a first person shooter Duke Nukem mixed with Ultima Online wrapped in a pseudo six ability/d20 system) and since they can't find that anywhere else they'll eventually start buying into more content - or they're turned off by the system and seek out some more generic WOW-esque modern MMO.

Agree and disagree. There is definitely a feeling of "what will I have to buy to play this game" whenever you start a game. Knowing all the expansions are out there, and that most games just make you buy the "latest expansion", feels a little bad.

I would definitely have it be a "latest expansion" model gets you previous expansions, then from there you can be vip or not. Even if you don't know what "the whole game is" - knowing I drop $70 or whatever and can play "the whole game" is a nice feeling to have.

Then make VIP more worth having, as has been mentioned by many others, and you have a way to get people in and upgrade them to VIP. Seems pretty clear to me.

Also, they really need to look at the pricing model for various items. Many are so expensive it seems like the prevailing sentiment here is no one would ever buy them at that price, but would definitely buy them at a more reasonable price. Things that are 2k should be 200, etc. Make them cheap enough so I actually re-do my sentient items / augments, instead of rarely if ever touching them.

[Sylvado]

Should packs have a heroic quest only package in the store that would allow for a lower buy in for new players?

[mikarddo]

That is exactly what I did back in 2012 but I guess that is the mindset back there not in the times of tiktok entertainment .
Só i believe you're right to Hook New players they need to join today and be doing the hot stuff tomorrow with the smallest learning curve ever .

On the contrary - this does not have anything to do with being "TikTok'ish" - in fact, its the opposite.

Back in 2012 I am guessing you were young with less income or out of work - and thus had the time to do something like that.

I am 52 and have a decent income. If I ask a friend to join DDO they will be adults with a decent income. They will want to play the game, now, with me. Not fool around on 7 severs for free points or wait 6 months for sales.

While they could easily enough pay $250 for everything they wont because thats silly and far more than expected. They would not mind paying $50 to get started but would expect to actually be able to play with me and that means having full access.

So, someone poor or someone with loads of time on their hands might go "farm favor on 7 servers" but someone adult with an income and limited time sure wont do that.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Should packs have a heroic quest only package in the store that would allow for a lower buy in for new players?


I am surprised this hasn't happened yet.


Since DDO went F2P the business model has had it's high and low points, and has kept the cash flowing, so I guess it's ok in that respect.

After buying 7 new titles and a bunch of free ones from Epic, I will say DDO is the most expensive game to get access to all content. And that paywall drives new players away IMO

[Targal]

I also just noticed another problem for new players:

DDO expansions are opened to low level players (especially new players) unlike how MMO expansions are only for end contents - because of the obvious system, Reincarnation.

Let's say you're a new player. You're playing in Korthos with people. To harbor. To Borderland. To Market. All good, UNTIL people decided to play Saltmarsh or Feywild.
Okay, you're not eligible for this - bye bye.

You manage to play other stuff, now your level is 10. People going Ravenloft, and you don't have it. Ok, bye bye...
Now you'll get the same situation for Menace of Underdark / Shadowfell Conspiracy, but these are really not even for end contents.

[Sylvado]

I also just noticed another problem for new players:

DDO expansions are opened to low level players (especially new players) unlike how MMO expansions are only for end contents - because of the obvious system, Reincarnation.

Let's say you're a new player. You're playing in Korthos with people. To harbor. To Borderland. To Market. All good, UNTIL people decided to play Saltmarsh or Feywild.
Okay, you're not eligible for this - bye bye.

You manage to play other stuff, now your level is 10. People going Ravenloft, and you don't have it. Ok, bye bye...
Now you'll get the same situation for Menace of Underdark / Shadowfell Conspiracy, but these are really not even for end contents.

and you skipped IOD

[Arkat]

I wouldn't say it was awful. It is still around 17 years later, after all.

I will say it could be better.

Granted, it is likely hamstrung to a degree by WotC and Hasbro so as not to compete with some of their more "glamorous" properties like Neverwinter Online and possibly some other properties that may not have come out yet.

But I'm sure better strategic thinking about what's offered in the DDO Store and when could help. Also planning the various weekend bonuses and such could also serve to enhance revenue in ways acceptable to the license grantors.

Bug fixing as well as better communications from SSG staff could also help with marketing and player retention.

[archest]

Perfect example of entitlement. Internet access give you internet access, it does not entitle you to any content on the internet.

Entitlement. lol
its an example of inclusion for impoverish patrons.
its affordability.

your philosophy is if you cant afford to play the game you should play checkers.
it were HOA's come from.
you trespass on others liberty because it doesn't effect you.
crawl back in your box.

[DaviMOC]

On the contrary - this does not have anything to do with being "TikTok'ish" - in fact, its the opposite.

Back in 2012 I am guessing you were young with less income or out of work - and thus had the time to do something like that.

I am 52 and have a decent income. If I ask a friend to join DDO they will be adults with a decent income. They will want to play the game, now, with me. Not fool around on 7 severs for free points or wait 6 months for sales.

While they could easily enough pay $250 for everything they wont because thats silly and far more than expected. They would not mind paying $50 to get started but would expect to actually be able to play with me and that means having full access.

So, someone poor or someone with loads of time on their hands might go "farm favor on 7 servers" but someone adult with an income and limited time sure wont do that.

I agree and disagree with you at the same time.

First, my income was lower but my country economy was way better. Nowdays I bought the basic IoD on 25% sales and it was for me after coin exchange almost the same price I've paid for the pre sales for Shadowfell on the highest pack.

The point I'm trying to make is that we used to have fun on the journey and neither us or ddo were focused on optimization and BiS gear. I didnt manage to bring any of my friends to ddo( they were too addicted to WoW to even try it out) and I just enjoyed playing over and over all the narrated dungeons by myself while I was learning the game systems and had some sort of rewards for that. Made friends and joined a guild during that process. I also had the oportunity to see and choose better what server I would join.

I did not need to play the latest content, i did not need to walk at the speed of others or to have the best gear/build. Was just fun to explore the world, play solo or with some people some times, hear the musics get to know some characters, read the quest logs, learn some quests tricks and secrets. That is the starter experience I suppose people should have to really enjoy a new game but what happens is quite the opposite.

The experience needs to be compact as possible, players wants/need to be doing the latest hot stuff being able to compete with veterans in less than 1 month ingame and have their dopamine surges as fast their can or some cheaper and faster oportunity for that will pop up.

We need to do what everyone is doing or its not fun. The top trending is the only fun thing to do.

And DDO adapted to that and learnt from it by monetizing the rush, the power, the progression.

[Aelonwy]

I have been advocating for years for them to retire the oldest paid adventure packs to the Free-to-Play Category. Thus much of what was P2P when the game went F2P would become part of that column and new players would only have to be concerned with purchasing newer packs and expansions.

This would have the added and IMHO much needed extra benefit of opening up many wilderness zones that were previously part of paid packs to the addition of new quests/new paid adventure packs.

For example, they could add a Ravenloft themed mini-expansion of Har'Akir which could have its entrance in an unused corner of either the city area or actual desert of Menechtarun.

Or they could expand Tangleroot Gorge and add a whole new set of adventures. Perhaps Morgrave University discovered previously unknown ruins just beyond where we had ever been able to explore before.

I'm honestly getting tired of and bored of being teleported from quest giver into the quest. To the quest entrance is one thing, because it lets me still have an implicit understanding of where in the world the dungeon is located and how my character could have arrived there... but inside the quest leaves the world disjointed, disconnected, not solid. Yes, I realize its less work for the devs if there's no world to explore and everyone just enters quests immediately after agreeing to the quest giver but its much less satisfying for me as a player. The Madness of Rage pack is a good example because for the most part it takes place here in Stormreach and we could have been teleported to the quest entrances within the city itself which would have created more immersion for me but instead all quest givers pop you right inside the quest.

[Deslen]

Granted, it is likely hamstrung to a degree by WotC and Hasbro so as not to compete with some of their more "glamorous" properties like Neverwinter Online and possibly some other properties that may not have come out yet.

My understanding of Neverwinter Nights Online is that it has gone to absolute heck in a handbasket... Pure loot box pay 2 win rubbish. To think, initially NWNO pulled a good number of players from DDO when it came out. Granted, that was in the days of 4e.

That said, having glimpsed the death rattle of other MMO's that pray for a few whales to keep them afloat through P2W, DDO's business model isn't nearly as bad as it could be. DDO has a lot going for it.

That said, there is absolutely room for improvement. I personally think all heroic content, expansion or otherwise, should have full access on brand new accounts. Let new players taste DDO's best. Then charge for the epic/legendary expansion content. As others have stated, group all old expansions under one bundle. $70 seems reasonable, once someone has tasted just how amazing the game is.

Getting new players to cough up $200 to play everything with their friends who have been playing for years is ludicrous. The reincarnation system is plenty addictive... Let them really experience that first hit.

[hit_fido]

Agree and disagree. There is definitely a feeling of "what will I have to buy to play this game" whenever you start a game. Knowing all the expansions are out there, and that most games just make you buy the "latest expansion", feels a little bad.

I don't think most potential new players are going to research that much before just downloading and trying all the low level free to play stuff. Since they recently made so many formerly premium races free, now a new player hard even more choice and can try some unusual stuff like Tiefling or Dragonborn. But I speculate the new player just wants to try the game system and see how the quests are and see what some of the character customization options are and there's plenty they can do right away without spending anything.

If a new player does conduct a thorough dive into whats possible for how much, it's not nearly as dire as OP makes out anyway.

Ravenloft, Sharn, Feywild are all 2495 DDO points. Which means theoretically someone who subscribed for six months at $10 a month would end up getting access to all of the free to play quests, the "premium" quests, and then had 3000 DDO points to buy any one of those expansion pack quest lines. So that's $60 bucks for your first six months, which gives you probably way more content to try out than you'll be able to finish anyway. That's not counting whatever free favor-based DDO points you're accumulating just playing the game anyway. In a year you'll have paid $120 and you'll be able to fund two expansion quest lines from your VIP points, so that covers what are probably the two "must haves", Ravenlost and Sharn. Now keep in mind the new player didn't have to drop $120 (or $220 as OP suggests) in one lump sum sight unseen. The whole point here is you try it out a little for free, then decide to subscribe for 3 months, you're out $30, if you think the game sucks, fine, no amount of cheap incentives will make you want to play a game you just fundamentally don't like. But if you do, then you drop $30 every 3 months and you'll eventually have all the expansion quest lines by spending the VIP points you're getting.

People either love this game or they hate it. If they love it, there's multiple cost effective ways to play cheaply.

[boredGamer]

I don't think most potential new players are going to research that much before just downloading and trying all the low level free to play stuff. Since they recently made so many formerly premium races free, now a new player hard even more choice and can try some unusual stuff like Tiefling or Dragonborn. But I speculate the new player just wants to try the game system and see how the quests are and see what some of the character customization options are and there's plenty they can do right away without spending anything.

If a new player does conduct a thorough dive into whats possible for how much, it's not nearly as dire as OP makes out anyway.

Ravenloft, Sharn, Feywild are all 2495 DDO points. Which means theoretically someone who subscribed for six months at $10 a month would end up getting access to all of the free to play quests, the "premium" quests, and then had 3000 DDO points to buy any one of those expansion pack quest lines. So that's $60 bucks for your first six months, which gives you probably way more content to try out than you'll be able to finish anyway. That's not counting whatever free favor-based DDO points you're accumulating just playing the game anyway. In a year you'll have paid $120 and you'll be able to fund two expansion quest lines from your VIP points, so that covers what are probably the two "must haves", Ravenlost and Sharn. Now keep in mind the new player didn't have to drop $120 (or $220 as OP suggests) in one lump sum sight unseen. The whole point here is you try it out a little for free, then decide to subscribe for 3 months, you're out $30, if you think the game sucks, fine, no amount of cheap incentives will make you want to play a game you just fundamentally don't like. But if you do, then you drop $30 every 3 months and you'll eventually have all the expansion quest lines by spending the VIP points you're getting.

People either love this game or they hate it. If they love it, there's multiple cost effective ways to play cheaply.

You presume a lot of knowledge for a new player to have. “If they just do this and that, it’s only $60”.

… why not just make it $60?

[hit_fido]

You presume a lot of knowledge for a new player to have. “If they just do this and that, it’s only $60”.

It's not any more knowledge than presuming a new player knows the dollar costs for every expansion pack, and assumes they need to drop an entire $220 to start playing.

But the point is those are both exceptional cases. The rule is new players who consider trying DDO just download the game, jump in and try it out without worrying about it. There's at least tens of hours of activities they can do to experience how the game works, get a taste for how much character customization there is, see how it differs from a traditional generic MMO. At that point they're either sick of it or they really like it and the ones who really like it are going to figure out how to play it for a cost they can live with.

[Sylvado]

Entitlement. lol
its an example of inclusion for impoverish patrons.
its affordability.

your philosophy is if you cant afford to play the game you should play checkers.
it were HOA's come from.
you trespass on others liberty because it doesn't effect you.
crawl back in your box.

So because you have internet access you are entitled to everything connected to the internet in spite of the cost to the provider to maintain that content? So movies be free, should music be free?

[boredGamer]

It's not any more knowledge than presuming a new player knows the dollar costs for every expansion pack, and assumes they need to drop an entire $220 to start playing.

But the point is those are both exceptional cases. The rule is new players who consider trying DDO just download the game, jump in and try it out without worrying about it. There's at least tens of hours of activities they can do to experience how the game works, get a taste for how much character customization there is, see how it differs from a traditional generic MMO. At that point they're either sick of it or they really like it and the ones who really like it are going to figure out how to play it for a cost they can live with.

It’s listed on the web site. Versus understanding Ddo points, packs , what to buy first, etc?

How about just charge me $70 for the game and $10/month to not have to figure things out.

[slarden]

MMOs are all about nudging people to pay to kick through the goalpost only to move the goalposts the next release.

I find the ftp and premium DDO model solid - you can literally earn everything important in game, but spending money allows you to do it faster and/or get exclusive early access to xpacs.

VIP is odd - really it's just an expensive way to buy DDO points with a small amount of bonus xp thrown in. There are people that play this game 40 hours per week and even more - for those folks the xp bonus alone is worth it. It's laughable how little content comes free with VIP. They don't seem super motivated to make the value worth the spend since so many people will retain VIP no matter what they do.

[hit_fido]

It’s listed on the web site. Versus understanding Ddo points, packs , what to buy first, etc?

On ddo.com the big button at the top says "Play Free" and next to it, "download the game", so that's probably where new players go first. Then they play the game. Then they quit or they stay and figure out how they want to keep playing.

If you look under the Shop tab you see links to pages about expansions and a link to VIP which would introduce them to DDO points. Why would any new player think they need all of the expansion to play the game at this point? Unless they dig into the forums here and find some thread claiming the game is basically unplayable without the expansions and that they'll need to drop $220 right away to even have a chance of enjoying the game? But then maybe they'll also see some other poster pointing out how you can actually dip your toe in for free until you decide whether it's your thing or not and then if you do you can get away quite cheaply if you want.

I'm empathetic to players who argue they have an army of friends just waiting on the sidelines, but because they wouldn't want to spend anything to buy Feywild or Ravenloft these great friends aren't playing together and having a wonderful time. Sounds dubious to me but I'll take it at face value, although what I'm hearing in the opposite direction is that you have these friends who could be playing with you, but you value running expansion content without your friends more than you value running free content with those friends. I mean to me, if you really want to play with those friends, just play with them in older content, maybe they'll catch a strong interest and buy into it so they can play more content with you too.

I could see SSG doing something like a one time per account two hour pass to use each expansion pack content. Then your friends who you desperately want to play with you but really really want it to be in expansion content could come along the first time through and see if they like it. Pushing for something like that, which at least builds off an already existing "guest pass" system, is more likely to get traction than suggesting SSG reduce its expansion content revenue by 60%-70%.

[archest]

Ravenloft is included with the Trove extension pack.

[archest]

So because you have internet access you are entitled to everything connected to the internet in spite of the cost to the provider to maintain that content? So movies be free, should music be free?

they are and were free until someone got the idea to charge people for them? just how old are you?

[Sylvado]

they are and were free until someone got the idea to charge people for them? just how old are you?

So the people that make them do not deserve to get paid?

[KoobTheProud]

I think the biggest problem with the business model at this point is that it is overly reliant on a small percentage of the customer base and the customer base is small to start with.

This makes DDO very susceptible to having external pressures dramatically reduce revenue. This is not a recession-proof venture by any means.

[Monkey_Archer]

DDO's business model isn't bad, its just hamstrung by their slow development cycle and refusal to invest in the game's infrastructure.

They could likely increase profits if they focused more on "new shiny" rather than trying to milk the new players. (and thereby chase many of them away)

What I mean is reduce the sticker shock for newer players with a faster obsolescence cycle, ie: Any expansion over 1 year old becomes half price automatically, 2 years old becomes quarter price or free for VIPs. (this would also incentivise VIP subscriptions). They could even raise the price a bit on new expansions.

Make it easier for newer players to get in the door, and make up that lost revenue with a larger player base buying more new content.

Of course, then they would need to invest in proper server architecture and actually release new content to get new income... :rolleyes:

[Smokewolf]

The biggest reoccurring headache for players is the unslotting of Augment and Filgrees. Which, by the games design, is part of every aspect of our gear Tetris. Thus, the sale of tools ends up being DDO's largest money maker by far.

For free-2-play accounts, I can 100% agree that the game should be supported by the purchase of tools. However, VIP players, there should receive substantial store discount, or receive several on a per-monthly basis. After all, VIP players pay for the game upfront to support the game we love. The least we should see, is some love in return.

[Sylvado]

DDO's business model isn't bad, its just hamstrung by their slow development cycle and refusal to invest in the game's infrastructure.

They could likely increase profits if they focused more on "new shiny" rather than trying to milk the new players. (and thereby chase many of them away)

What I mean is reduce the sticker shock for newer players with a faster obsolescence cycle, ie: Any expansion over 1 year old becomes half price automatically, 2 years old becomes quarter price or free for VIPs. (this would also incentivise VIP subscriptions). They could even raise the price a bit on new expansions.

Make it easier for newer players to get in the door, and make up that lost revenue with a larger player base buying more new content.

Of course, then they would need to invest in proper server architecture and actually release new content to get new income... :rolleyes:

You are assuming it is an infrastructure issue. You do not invest in infrastructure you pay for the resources you need on a monthly basis, servers are software designed and the actual infrastructure exists only for the hosting company. I would guess it is more likely a result of a 20 year old data structure that has been built on year after year. The odd part though is that players, like myself, rarely if ever have any lag.

[Alttab]

They want to make as much money as possible. So a VIP for loyal customers that does not give much. Expansion or mini-expansion every year, those are a big paywall for all players, including the VIP.
I tried the VIP during daily gold roll and didn't like it, took a one year break from the game and just came back. I unlocked all the new expansions and quests using DDO points and I am running out of points now.
I think I would just prefer if VIP would unlock all expansions or if it would give 1000 DDO points per month.

[Chai]

The game is no longer the product. Items such as faster progress and direct character power increases sold to you a-la-carte are the product. The game is now simply the environment which will be kept up and running, even when it means it's held together by duct tape and chicken wire - where you use the real product being sold to you. The more the revenue stream relies on those items, the more compromised the game environment becomes.

Chai ~2012.

From a business perspective they might be able to justify it, but its easy to see how from a gamers perspective, this business model is the least perferred. The one way it gets worse is when they turn up the degree of it.

The barriers to entry:
Character power gap between long standing players and new players.
Cost of all expansions where vast majority of BiS loot resides.
Selling the ability to correct a build mistake to new(er) players is a major issue many long time players take for granted.
...also: constantly changing meta incentivizing players ot change their builds.
Hilariously long farm to obtain character power now includes AP increases in multiple progression systems. Expectation is people will buy their way past the farm.

These things only increase in magnitude the more time passes. The "plan" to address them is still to charge for the solution on an a-la-carte basis. This results in a (very) high new player churn rate. This doesn't look good to a gamer, but from the business perspective, every time this catches a new big spender who will pay to catch up in an every added progression system, this model is deemed a success.

[Oxarhamar]

The game is no longer the product. Items such as faster progress and direct character power increases sold to you a-la-carte are the product. The game is now simply the environment which will be kept up and running, even when it means it's held together by duct tape and chicken wire - where you use the real product being sold to you. The more the revenue stream relies on those items, the more compromised the game environment becomes.

Chai ~2012.

From a business perspective they might be able to justify it, but its easy to see how from a gamers perspective, this business model is the least perferred. The one way it gets worse is when they turn up the degree of it.

The barriers to entry:
Character power gap between long standing players and new players.
Cost of all expansions where vast majority of BiS loot resides.
Selling the ability to correct a build mistake to new(er) players is a major issue many long time players take for granted.
...also: constantly changing meta incentivizing players ot change their builds.
Hilariously long farm to obtain character power now includes AP increases in multiple progression systems. Expectation is people will buy their way past the farm.

These things only increase in magnitude the more time passes. The "plan" to address them is still to charge for the solution on an a-la-carte basis. This results in a (very) high new player churn rate. This doesn't look good to a gamer, but from the business perspective, every time this catches a new big spender who will pay to catch up in an every added progression system, this model is deemed a success.

Welcome back

DDO has moved away from subscription and towards pushing more & more expansions instead

[Stradivarius]

It's not awful.

You have to see DDO in context. That "other" D&D MMO is Neverwinter and if you ever played it, it's EA levels of Pay2Win.

DDO, although still not great in terms of monetization, is still one of the best "non-fleecing" MMOs out there. Theoretically you could play the game for free unlocking everything through favors (in theory).

[Valtan]

Problem is not the business model, it is the senior management and leadership team like most American companies. The only difference is Silicon Valley Bank customers pulled their money while SSG customers donate the money (for charity and nostalgia).

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

I haven't seen a balance sheet, a P&L, or a business plan, so I don't feel qualified to judge their business model. :p

[Captain_Wizbang]

Welcome back

DDO has moved away from subscription and towards pushing more & more expansions instead

I don't see that as a legit long-term successful model. *The obvious rebuttal to that is, we're still here, the game is still running...* but... we're losing players little by little. so IMHO it's not sustainable in the current state.

[Scrag]

On ddo.com the big button at the top says "Play Free" and next to it, "download the game", so that's probably where new players go first. Then they play the game. Then they quit or they stay and figure out how they want to keep playing.



This was me (though I had played 10 years ago). I popped in f2p, said why cant i do much with some of my chars, what do i own, and more importantly, why cant i do any of the quests i remembered doing in the past?! (like catacombs or coin lords).

Ultimately I decided to grab 3 months vip, as that was the best bang for my buck and got me everything I wanted. Even not remembering anything, it is engrossing enough for the vip.

Even if someone considers it a fail, 3 months isnt too much money to invest month on, just to putz. And it opens pretty much anything not an expansion.

That be said, the expansions all went on sale _again_. 10$ for ravenloft and the other two was a steal. Likewise sharn? was really cheap. IoD was kind of high, but since I got everything with a mix of points and real money when points were double or real money was extra cheap, I came out significantly on the cheap side to open all the goods.

[M.ham]

When DDO is compared to other game's BM, it's clearly awful, even since 2009? (when DDO Store system started.)

SSG's Business Model is based purely on creating grind and then selling us a way to alleviate the grind. One can choose to not jump on the hamster wheel, but then you would not be a target of their Business Model.

I would be willing to wager that the bulk of their income is generated from the DDO Store. The fact that they stopped the daily gold rolls because it was eating into their drug trade, only illustrates how important the DDO Store is to their Business Model. The fact that they were willing to upset so may players in the process also illustrates the importance of the DDO Store to their bottom line. XP/Loot potions, Astral shards for rerolling chests, XP stones in the various Boxes, Augment/Filigree/Dino tools (having to buy these tools irks me to no end), Stat/Skill Tomes, etc. All designed to make each revolution of the hamster wheel go a little faster.

You can talk about cost of entry all you want, in the end SSG provides a very low cost of entry (it is free to play after all), what they are hoping for, is to get you to power the servers by jumping on the hamster wheel. SSG is essentially the Pusher who wants to get you hooked on the DDO Crack and is willing to give you the free sample in the hope of doing so. Once you jump on the hamster wheel, you can then start calculating the cost (VIP vs F2P, X-Pacs, etc.) each gram of DDO fun is going to cost.

The fact that the game is still running, and as stated, is a large piece of the pie that EG7 calls an income statement, is a testament to the Crack being of such high quality, that we keep coming back to the trough for more.

On that note, if anyone wants to sponsor me for Hamster Wheels Anonymous, I would be willing to take you up on the offer.

Cheers,
M.

[Zites]

When DDO is compared to other game's BM, it's clearly awful, even since 2009? (when DDO Store system started.)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VIP system

VIP or subscription system is supposed to:
- not really necessary for new players
- a big advantages for old players

Meanwhile, DDO is:
- new players should subscription to access 'dungeons' (even if SSG released almost everything for free during the pandemic)
- old players don't have to get subscription because they might have bought everything from DDO store
- old players wouldn't want to lose their ability to buy adventure packs from DDO store because of their subscription status.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adventure pack system


It also goes badly with VIP system.
- old players bought everything
- new players would be supposed to buy these, but it's hell too a lot of packs!! why would they be interested to buy one? They're even supposed to buy expansions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of expansions


Let's say you're a new player and should buy important stuff:

total: $200 + $20 (Tax 10%) = total $220!


Okay, this doesn't look right. If you buy a package of a single game, It can provide a lot of playtimes.
but DDO expansions are... a bit weird for that purpose.
I know these are sometimes discounted though... but seeing this price wouldn't make new players to be attracted.


I mean, "selling expansions" IS FINE. but it shouldn't be dumping like this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luxury items

"Luxury" items are something fancy or very convenient - including exp pots.
But due to the awful history of Turbine (anniversay card event) and SSG (dupe issue 1~2 years ago), exp pots are extremely generated and people won't buy exp pots, but also it's a bit expensive.

but also cosmetics are awful.
DDO store cosmetics are awful too.

old players don't have anything to buy because they might have bought every adventure packs.
exp pots, otto, things else are actually not helpful for this because it only shortens your time.
then SSG should suggest that players can't get through their plenty of TIME.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daily Rolling system

It's a hell mess. It's zero motivation for the lottery. They really should know how to be evil for this.
Just dumping things into 100 gold roll doesn't mean you can be evil.

some MMO typically tries 'seasonal lottery' (i.e. Elder Scrolls Online)
but also, it shouldn't tell which roll you got - but 1d100 is kinda a signature for D&D, but I don't know. The current form doesn't look nice to me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bonus DP by favor


It might be clever when the game had not many adventures, but for this state, no, it's bad.
This should be changed too.



DP vs Astral shard

Typically, Astral Shard should be given for free, and DP shouldn't be given for free, in my opinion.
They're doing these reversed.
I mean, the purpose of DP and Astral shards is really weirdly designed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Overall:
- new players feel uncomfortable buying stuff because they don't know they would want to play more.
- new players will often meet cases 'annoying them' if they're not VIP.
- Even if new players subscripted VIP, they'll get annoyed because they didn't buy a lot of expansions.
- but new players are required to buy a lot of stuff in DDO - which makes them p*ssed off. Why would they play DDO by paying these **** money?

- old players don't have anything to buy because they have bought everything they're required.
- VIP isn't really attractive to old players because it's just exp subscription.
- old players can potentailly get a lot of DPs because of their TR'ing
- due to the generating DPs by TR'ing, old players don't have to buy DDO points often.
- meanwhile old players don't have things to buy in DDO store




That's all I can wrote for now - I might have forgotten something.
So, the whole BM of DDO is really really mess and awful.
Putting more benefits to VIP isn't only the way to go. SSG should CHANGE EVERYTHING.

although these were all made when BM theory is well researched, but it shouldn't be kept forever.

IMO your post has too many words.

The new VIP program will be a failure, the same people that are VIP now will be VIP then.
It won’t attract anyone else, nor will it bring back people that are mad about gold rolls and DDO giving away quest packs free.

Free to play by nature is a bait and switch it can’t be done successfully any other way.
Ultimately, this game will become subscription if it can’t make enough money from selling expansions and store-bought items.

When people TR or during hard-core they’ll pay for VIP so they can open on elite.

If they want VIP to work, they need to double the points 1000 points a month and triple the options in the pickum box.

[Targal]

IMO your post has too many words.

The issue isn't a single thing. Giving VIP new stuff won't solve the whole thing because it's like a lego house with uncompatible blocks.

[archest]

in order to catch the guy with 10 years in the game , your gonna have to put ten years in the game.

[Oxarhamar]

I don't see that as a legit long-term successful model. *The obvious rebuttal to that is, we're still here, the game is still running...* but... we're losing players little by little. so IMHO it's not sustainable in the current state.

Nope it’s not but it temporarily pleases the bean counters to show the influx of cash at each launch

Even if bilking VIP with content is driving them away apparently

[Wizard1406]

I think the biggest problem with the business model at this point is that it is overly reliant on a small percentage of the customer base and the customer base is small to start with.

This makes DDO very susceptible to having external pressures dramatically reduce revenue. This is not a recession-proof venture by any means.

Yep it would be great if they did more for new player aquisition and player retention. Otherwise the population will get too low over time. Marketing seems to be nearly non-existent...not enough people know about DDO or that it is still running strong, with regular new content.

I wonder why they don't have some campaigns like Recruit-a-friend, free-to-play weekend, get rewards for posting about DDD on social media.

Hope they have something good planned for DDO movie release.

[Stradivarius]

We got lots of complaints but not a single answer. Someone here said SSG creates grind and then sell us the means to bypass grind.... OK but isn't that essentially every MMO's monetization strategy?

What can they do to make money while making you happy?

[Zites]

We got lots of complaints but not a single answer. Someone here said SSG creates grind and then sell us the means to bypass grind.... OK but isn't that essentially every MMO's monetization strategy?

What can they do to make money while making you happy?

I will Quote “myself perhaps you missed it while reading all the nonsense.



If they want VIP to work, they need to double the points 1000 points a month and triple the options in the pickum box.

For the record, I’m not unhappy but I will not do VIP if their current offering stands.
I don’t play hard-core, and I know how to play the game without giving them any money.
I’ve given this game thousands of dollars over the years. I don’t want to give them anymore now.
If they make the game where I cant play for free, I’ll just stop playing no hard feelings just good bye.
That being said, I will buy expansions if the interest me.

[Sylvado]

IMO your post has too many words.

The new VIP program will be a failure, the same people that are VIP now will be VIP then.
It won’t attract anyone else, nor will it bring back people that are mad about gold rolls and DDO giving away quest packs free.

Free to play by nature is a bait and switch it can’t be done successfully any other way.
Ultimately, this game will become subscription if it can’t make enough money from selling expansions and store-bought items.

When people TR or during hard-core they’ll pay for VIP so they can open on elite.

If they want VIP to work, they need to double the points 1000 points a month and triple the options in the pickum box.

You want 12000 points for $100 plus a lot of other things. That is a clear loss for SGS.

[Zites]

You want 12000 points for $100 plus a lot of other things. That is a clear loss for SGS.

No, let's try this another way, maybe it will help with cognitive dissonance.

Points are worth a penny a point so 100 points =100 pennies or a dollar, everything else they are offering in the pick-um box has very little value to me and just about everyone else.

Also, I don't need to buy points, and same goes for 50% of the player base, I haven't bought any for the last year or two.

If they want my money and the 40-50% of the player base that will not respond to their latest offering, they will have to sweeten the DEAL.

This is a loss of revenue for them, and unlike 50% of you, I don't care to give them money just because it keeps the lights on, I have other pursuits outside of the game.

All that being said I will buy expansions if they interest me.

[Sylvado]

Also, I don't need to buy points, and same goes for 50% of the player base, I haven't bought any for the last year or two.



but you are asking for 12,000/year, got it.

[Zites]

but you are asking for 12,000/year, got it.

No, I'm making a counteroffer. Let's not forget we are dealing in unrealities it's not $12000, in-fact the work to revenue relationship is greater for long existing gaming companies than Big Pharma.

It is in-fact worthless to all but the 3-5 thousand people playing this game, the people who bought it and those who work for the game.

So, if they want to get more than the folks that feel sorry for them, and the people that can't live without this game, they will sweeten the deal.

[axiom21]

No real different than the Destiny 2 model or really any other popular Battle Royale / Looter-Shooter "Live Service" game model - in a way, Turbine/SSG were pioneers - just with much lower populations.

To get up to speed on Destiny 2 and enjoy all content and raids you're paying in excess of $300-400 if not more for E-Packs, Seasonal Content, not to mention in-game currency to get ahold of items you need but are impossible to farm without the Destiny 2 equivalent of a bunch of "past lives" (not actually, don't want to get too far off).

The real issue DDO has, and so did LOTRO and AC1 & AC2 is that there is no marketing. Sure, you get some small conversion from content creators, but even considering Strim, Voodoo, Axel, et al they do maybe 5-10K max views? And it's mostly other DDO viewers. You'd think a company who had 2 failed MMOs and two of the most exciting IPs in the MMO space (LOTR and D&D ffs) would be able to harness that for some SEO or banner ads or marketing emails off of ZoomInfo from people who play other MMOs or Live Service games.

Without the word out DDO is largely word of mouth or if someone gets interested from seeing a much larger (300K+ sub) YouTuber who talks about MMOs or other RPGs online talk about it and then peter out.

The other issue is the VIP thing and expansions. I'd much prefer if another tier came out that locked you into all e-packs. I wouldn't mind paying $25/month for that just to not have to worry about being gated behind some content but I'd also want more than a measly 10% XP and 10% run speed that only works in public areas.

The cosmetics are stupid and lazy, some like them. I don't mind the Sov II pots and Otto Boxes, I'll buy some every so often when points go on sale. The real issue is none of it is available in-game which makes people sour very quickly on the P2W model - though you don't "win" anything since DDO isn't a PVP game or has some major league six-figure prize pool competition like a PUBG or ForkKnife or Destiny 2 Crucible does.

Then add that the devs & product managers don't seem to play the game and nerf everything, whoever is running SysAdmin probably needs to go back to school or be reminded we aren't on Microsoft Zone anymore and it is not 1999, customer service is non-existent and openly hostile to you, and now server transfer are killing guilds & populations and you can combat the retention issue.

So, business model aside, the current operations aren't great. No active marketing and onboarding of new players (DDO is a hard game compared to most, only DAOC & AC1 kind of compared in depth of systems) and poor retention and apathy will lead to me taking PCAPs and writing tools to read DAT files again I guess

[Oxarhamar]

No real different than the Destiny 2 model or really any other popular Battle Royale / Looter-Shooter "Live Service" game model - in a way, Turbine/SSG were pioneers - just with much lower populations.

To get up to speed on Destiny 2 and enjoy all content and raids you're paying in excess of $300-400 if not more for E-Packs, Seasonal Content, not to mention in-game currency to get ahold of items you need but are impossible to farm without the Destiny 2 equivalent of a bunch of "past lives" (not actually, don't want to get too far off).

The real issue DDO has, and so did LOTRO and AC1 & AC2 is that there is no marketing. Sure, you get some small conversion from content creators, but even considering Strim, Voodoo, Axel, et al they do maybe 5-10K max views? And it's mostly other DDO viewers. You'd think a company who had 2 failed MMOs and two of the most exciting IPs in the MMO space (LOTR and D&D ffs) would be able to harness that for some SEO or banner ads or marketing emails off of ZoomInfo from people who play other MMOs or Live Service games.

Without the word out DDO is largely word of mouth or if someone gets interested from seeing a much larger (300K+ sub) YouTuber who talks about MMOs or other RPGs online talk about it and then peter out.

The other issue is the VIP thing and expansions. I'd much prefer if another tier came out that locked you into all e-packs. I wouldn't mind paying $25/month for that just to not have to worry about being gated behind some content but I'd also want more than a measly 10% XP and 10% run speed that only works in public areas.

The cosmetics are stupid and lazy, some like them. I don't mind the Sov II pots and Otto Boxes, I'll buy some every so often when points go on sale. The real issue is none of it is available in-game which makes people sour very quickly on the P2W model - though you don't "win" anything since DDO isn't a PVP game or has some major league six-figure prize pool competition like a PUBG or ForkKnife or Destiny 2 Crucible does.

Then add that the devs & product managers don't seem to play the game and nerf everything, whoever is running SysAdmin probably needs to go back to school or be reminded we aren't on Microsoft Zone anymore and it is not 1999, customer service is non-existent and openly hostile to you, and now server transfer are killing guilds & populations and you can combat the retention issue.

So, business model aside, the current operations aren't great. No active marketing and onboarding of new players (DDO is a hard game compared to most, only DAOC & AC1 kind of compared in depth of systems) and poor retention and apathy will lead to me taking PCAPs and writing tools to read DAT files again I guess

Agree 100% marketing is non existent when they gave the free quest codes that could have had a much larger influx of players with marketing

Still would need a VIP system that’s worthwhile for subscriptions

[Sylvado]

No, I'm making a counteroffer. Let's not forget we are dealing in unrealities it's not $12000, in-fact the work to revenue relationship is greater for long existing gaming companies than Big Pharma.

It is in-fact worthless to all but the 3-5 thousand people playing this game, the people who bought it and those who work for the game.

So, if they want to get more than the folks that feel sorry for them, and the people that can't live without this game, they will sweeten the deal.

12,000 points not currency, you asked for exactly that. If you want a better selection in the boxes I would agree, but not better boxes and more points. $100 buys you 1312.5 points a month if you wait for a double bonus so asking for 1000/mo and a lot more in the box is asking for a lot for 312.5 points.

[Eantarus]

You'd think a company who had 2 failed MMOs

Point of order: Asheron's Call 1 & 2 were not "failures" by any stretch of the imagination. AC1 was among the longest-running MMOs in history and only shut down because of IP disputes between Turbine and WB when they split off to form SSG. AC2 did not do well at launch but was still popular enough to be resurected years later and ran for a reasonable timeframe.




Without the word out DDO is largely word of mouth or if someone gets interested from seeing a much larger (300K+ sub) YouTuber who talks about MMOs or other RPGs online talk about it and then peter out.

Word of mouth is a serious problem when most of those words are about how terrible the game is. Yet another reason SSG needs to LISTEN to the player feedback and FIX the things we are complaining about.

The best business model in the world won't save this game if they refuse to fix VIP or provide us more storage.





Then add that the devs & product managers don't seem to play the game and nerf everything, whoever is running SysAdmin probably needs to go back to school or be reminded we aren't on Microsoft Zone anymore and it is not 1999, customer service is non-existent and openly hostile to you, and now server transfer are killing guilds & populations and you can combat the retention issue.

This year's producer letter was a complete joke.

[Zites]

12,000 points not currency, you asked for exactly that. If you want a better selection in the boxes I would agree, but not better boxes and more points. $100 buys you 1312.5 points a month if you wait for a double bonus so asking for 1000/mo and a lot more in the box is asking for a lot for 312.5 points.

It is 1.5-3million a year in revenue.
Customer base of 5000 people x $125 a year in vip=$625k,
+expansions 5000x $75-$250=$375k-1.25mil,
+annual store sales 5000x $100-$250=500k-1.25mil

With more points from vip people will spend more actual money in the store on the high ticket items.

Bring back x3 points annually, make available every other month (Bond to Act. Otto’s Box) or wish of inheritance, Tenser's, ect.
Sell exclusive mounts, Hires and Pets in store only if not purchased in ULTIMATE FAN BUNDLE after 1 year.
Create more pay to level fast items in store, pots, boosts and straight power items, that have timers and require group play.
Remove all barriers possible that hinder group play like flagging, level gap and the like.

Pay to catch up appeals to people that cant play the game 12-16 hours a day, because they work.

[hit_fido]

It is 1.5-3million a year in revenue.
Customer base of 5000 people x $125 a year in vip=$625k,
+expansions 5000x $75-$250=$375k-1.25mil,
+annual store sales 5000x $100-$250=500k-1.25mil


As far as I know, the last "official" numbers for DDO from EG7 were from the end of 2020 when they reported 22,000 subscribers out of 46,000 monthly active users, and 9 months of revenue at 6.9MM (https://www.enadglobal7.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/EG7-Investor-Presentation-Dec-2020-Acquires-Daybreak-Games.pdf).

Anyway, for whoever asked for a solution, I'll buy whatever storage they offer, whether it's added space to existing systems, some kind of new player housing system, or even something as simple as a cosmetic item bag. Storage still seems like an under-developed revenue source that would please most players, especially those worried about power creep or "pay to win".

[Loromir]

When DDO is compared to other game's BM, it's clearly awful, even since 2009? (when DDO Store system started.)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

VIP system

VIP or subscription system is supposed to:
- not really necessary for new players
- a big advantages for old players

Meanwhile, DDO is:
- new players should subscription to access 'dungeons' (even if SSG released almost everything for free during the pandemic)
- old players don't have to get subscription because they might have bought everything from DDO store
- old players wouldn't want to lose their ability to buy adventure packs from DDO store because of their subscription status.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adventure pack system


It also goes badly with VIP system.
- old players bought everything
- new players would be supposed to buy these, but it's hell too a lot of packs!! why would they be interested to buy one? They're even supposed to buy expansions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of expansions


Let's say you're a new player and should buy important stuff:

total: $200 + $20 (Tax 10%) = total $220!


Okay, this doesn't look right. If you buy a package of a single game, It can provide a lot of playtimes.
but DDO expansions are... a bit weird for that purpose.
I know these are sometimes discounted though... but seeing this price wouldn't make new players to be attracted.


I mean, "selling expansions" IS FINE. but it shouldn't be dumping like this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luxury items

"Luxury" items are something fancy or very convenient - including exp pots.
But due to the awful history of Turbine (anniversay card event) and SSG (dupe issue 1~2 years ago), exp pots are extremely generated and people won't buy exp pots, but also it's a bit expensive.

but also cosmetics are awful.
DDO store cosmetics are awful too.

old players don't have anything to buy because they might have bought every adventure packs.
exp pots, otto, things else are actually not helpful for this because it only shortens your time.
then SSG should suggest that players can't get through their plenty of TIME.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daily Rolling system

It's a hell mess. It's zero motivation for the lottery. They really should know how to be evil for this.
Just dumping things into 100 gold roll doesn't mean you can be evil.

some MMO typically tries 'seasonal lottery' (i.e. Elder Scrolls Online)
but also, it shouldn't tell which roll you got - but 1d100 is kinda a signature for D&D, but I don't know. The current form doesn't look nice to me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bonus DP by favor


It might be clever when the game had not many adventures, but for this state, no, it's bad.
This should be changed too.



DP vs Astral shard

Typically, Astral Shard should be given for free, and DP shouldn't be given for free, in my opinion.
They're doing these reversed.
I mean, the purpose of DP and Astral shards is really weirdly designed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Overall:
- new players feel uncomfortable buying stuff because they don't know they would want to play more.
- new players will often meet cases 'annoying them' if they're not VIP.
- Even if new players subscripted VIP, they'll get annoyed because they didn't buy a lot of expansions.
- but new players are required to buy a lot of stuff in DDO - which makes them p*ssed off. Why would they play DDO by paying these **** money?

- old players don't have anything to buy because they have bought everything they're required.
- VIP isn't really attractive to old players because it's just exp subscription.
- old players can potentailly get a lot of DPs because of their TR'ing
- due to the generating DPs by TR'ing, old players don't have to buy DDO points often.
- meanwhile old players don't have things to buy in DDO store




That's all I can wrote for now - I might have forgotten something.
So, the whole BM of DDO is really really mess and awful.
Putting more benefits to VIP isn't only the way to go. SSG should CHANGE EVERYTHING.

although these were all made when BM theory is well researched, but it shouldn't be kept forever.

Not sure how you can comment on their "Business Model"....since it's not public record. No one knows if they are making a profit or losing Money. Now you might not like they way they have treated the game....but, if they are profitable....then it's a good business model.

There is a big difference in the way players perceive a game and a business model. They could very well be making money hand over fist...and yet, we as players hate the way the develop the game.

[Oxarhamar]

Not sure how you can comment on their "Business Model"....since it's not public record. No one knows if they are making a profit or losing Money. Now you might not like they way they have treated the game....but, if they are profitable....then it's a good business model.

There is a big difference in the way players perceive a game and a business model. They could very well be making money hand over fist...and yet, we as players hate the way the develop the game.

Most recent information available reported DDO as making more $$$ per player than LoTRO

[DaviMOC]

Not sure how you can comment on their "Business Model"....since it's not public record. No one knows if they are making a profit or losing Money. Now you might not like they way they have treated the game....but, if they are profitable....then it's a good business model.

There is a big difference in the way players perceive a game and a business model. They could very well be making money hand over fist...and yet, we as players hate the way the develop the game.

+1 to you.

I cant understand how the cows are debating better and more effective ways of being milked harder. Our scope as players are the benefits we receive and how cheap for us it could be. And yes, fairness and cheapness should be in our best interest . Even crowdfounded indie games needs to deliver something at some point and its not up to the founder to find out ways to make it work. VIP is not charity there is nothing like paying to keep the lights up but also it shouldnt be a P2W tool or any cute names you guys gives to it as it is bad even for the whales.

[Zites]

As far as I know, the last "official" numbers for DDO from EG7 were from the end of 2020 when they reported 22,000 subscribers out of 46,000 monthly active users, and 9 months of revenue at 6.9MM (https://www.enadglobal7.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/EG7-Investor-Presentation-Dec-2020-Acquires-Daybreak-Games.pdf).

Anyway, for whoever asked for a solution, I'll buy whatever storage they offer, whether it's added space to existing systems, some kind of new player housing system, or even something as simple as a cosmetic item bag. Storage still seems like an under-developed revenue source that would please most players, especially those worried about power creep or "pay to win".

Cooking the books is not new, nor is people spending an exorbitant amount of money on games.
As I’ve stated, Ive spent plenty of money in years past, but not now. Also I know BS when I see it.

They’re feeling the crunch and we’ll see if they make the proper adjustments or just get lucky, and count it to themselves as genius.

[Zites]

As far as I know, the last "official" numbers for DDO from EG7 were from the end of 2020 when they reported 22,000 subscribers out of 46,000 monthly active users, and 9 months of revenue at 6.9MM (https://www.enadglobal7.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/EG7-Investor-Presentation-Dec-2020-Acquires-Daybreak-Games.pdf)..

46,000 per monthly active users, in 9 months is $43.oo per active monthly user 1.9MM. -22,000 subscribers
24,000 x $43.oo per active monthly user 1.MM

22,000 subscribers in 9 months is $272.oo per subscriber 6.MM over 9 months.
Subs cost $99-$180 per year 2.2MM-4.4MM annually, over 9 months 1.6MM-3.3MM.
Leaving 4.3MM-5.3MM to be accounted for by store sales and expansions, depending on if 24,000 active monthly users spend $43. per 9months, which seems reasonable.

Of course, we know these numbers are heavily skewed to look like 46,000 are actively playing.

When it is more like 1000 whales x$100-300 monthly=900k-2.7MM in 9 months making 1/3 of revenue, with expansions, subs, 4000 active players, and 46,000 monthly active users accounting for 2/3s of revenue.

Z- $600 per 5000 active players $2.25MM-in 9 months is how you turn Minnows in to Whales by feeding them what they want.

Edit to correct typos, make it coherent and flush it out a bit more.

In my estimation 75% of actively playing customers that's about 5k people, spend $200-$300 annually, with the prosect of 2-4x if incentivized.

1.Make VIP worth it.

2.Encourage new player recruitment by combining streamers/sales/incentives with a hands-on approach.

3.Sell Pay to catch up items that require group play.

[Targal]

Not sure how you can comment on their "Business Model"....since it's not public record. No one knows if they are making a profit or losing Money. Now you might not like they way they have treated the game....but, if they are profitable....then it's a good business model.

There is a big difference in the way players perceive a game and a business model. They could very well be making money hand over fist...and yet, we as players hate the way the develop the game.

I've hardly seen new players in Korean guilds - especially in past 2 years. I mean, we've been having new players indeed, but 99% of them fail to find the fun of the game before they reach the point where they can feel it at.
I don't think it's different to other communities in DDO. I see the same ones, the same people everyday.

When considering this, DDO is highly reliable on old players, meanwhile the only way to get money from them is usually expansions, more expansions, and more expansions. subscription? maybe.
and then, this makes blocking new players getting into the game because they are supposed to buy a lot of expansions. Old players are fine anyways since they like the game, but what about new players? They only see they should buy a lot of expansions.
The game is supposed to have new players anyways as old players are not forever, but I don't see any attracting point in the game especially when you should buy a lot of stuff at start. I don't think DDO is at "Can I buy this later?" stuff like how other MMO games are.


Yeah, it can be successful anyways, but It's why I don't see it persisting.
even if any record is not public, we might know how it is going since we feel the population and we KNOW the population.

[magaiti]

You want 12000 points for $100 plus a lot of other things. That is a clear loss for SGS.

If 33,500 for 200$ is not a loss, why 12000 for 100$ would be?

[Sylvado]

If 33,500 for 200$ is not a loss, why 12000 for 100$ would be?

You missed the point, the ask was for 12,000 points and 12 boxes with items 3 times the value of the proposed boxes.

[KoobTheProud]

There's no player, save for some absurd (and perhaps rich) edge case, who's going to drop $200 just to start playing DDO. The price of expansions are not a barrier to entry. People who try this game out are going to jump in for free and run around Korthos/Island for 4 hours or more just getting used to the game and how you play and how you find quests, then they might spend several hours in the harbor. Then they might start all over just to see how a caster seems versus a melee for a while before deciding what to focus on. At that point they're either hooked by the unique feel of DDO (a first person shooter Duke Nukem mixed with Ultima Online wrapped in a pseudo six ability/d20 system) and since they can't find that anywhere else they'll eventually start buying into more content - or they're turned off by the system and seek out some more generic WOW-esque modern MMO.

This is who they are fishing for though. They want to hook and reel in the rare customer who will spend $200 right off the bat and then spend a lot more than that on progression once they see how backloaded the game is. They want a low 1,000's customer base of these people who will do the bulk of the spending that keeps the game afloat. The rest of us are just moral support for the few flounders that keep everything going.

[hit_fido]

This is who they are fishing for though. They want to hook and reel in the rare customer who will spend $200 right off the bat and then spend a lot more than that on progression once they see how backloaded the game is. They want a low 1,000's customer base of these people who will do the bulk of the spending that keeps the game afloat. The rest of us are just moral support for the few flounders that keep everything going.

"I know your true intentions, SSG!" - a distant Fallowcrest relative posting to the forum.

By the way, I want those people too. As many as there can be to help this rickety train actually make it to 20+ years. It failed out of the gate and should have been dead around 2009, it wanted to die, it desperately wanted to sleep forever... but some mad scientists resurrected it as free to play and it lingers on despite years of predictions that, now they've done it, the developers/producers have really messed up, this time it's really going to die, this year or next, I swear. Yeah don't worry, this game isn't going to last forever. But no one here has any kind of real insight into whether the game is meeting the expectations SSG or Daybreak has. It's all theoretical mind reading mixed with ignoring what little real data we do have re: revenue and subscriber counts in favor of bitter guesswork.

And I'm no mind reader either, I'm sure SSG also wants that segment of new players who spend $200 spread out over the course of a year, and even players who spend $10 a month and not much more. They'd probably even be pleased just to see new players, period. Apparently, in contradiction to many opinions here, they even want players who only jump in once or twice a year into a hardcore system specifically designed to thwart constant "backloaded progression" by starting fresh each time. Any of these mythical new players all start with actually playing the game and then deciding not only does it not suck but they're going to invest precious time building a virtual doll dressed up with a lot of numbers disguised as virtual swords and sceptres. At that point they'll also decide what level of cash outlay is appropriate for themselves, and the overwhelming majority of them aren't going to feel obligated to dropping $220 having only just played several hours through Korthos and some of the harbor quests - no matter what someone says on the forum they probably didn't read.

The barrier to entry for new players isn't expansion pricing. It's the game itself, same barrier as it was back in 2006 when DDO failed to gain the same kind of high subscriber retention numbers as WOW or Star Wars or even Everquest. If they really like the unique game play, then they're going to continue to play DDO even if they don't immediately have access to all content.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The barrier to entry for new players isn't expansion pricing. It's the game itself, same barrier as it was back in 2006 when DDO failed to gain the same kind of high subscriber retention numbers as WOW or Star Wars or even Everquest. If they really like the unique game play, then they're going to continue to play DDO even if they don't immediately have access to all content.


FYI, DDO had between 2-3 million players, almost daily until 2010-ish.

[Zites]

You missed the point, the ask was for 12,000 points and 12 boxes with items 3 times the value of the proposed boxes.

Was the point lost on you? The ask from the players was 6.9MM over 9 months.
From a active player base of 5k, with very little effort from Sylvado and Company to bring in new players to help carry the burden.
With an obvious decline in out-put from the Team as reflected in Producers Letter.
Not to mention a lack of communication or compromise with the players for what they want.

1.Vip that's worth it.

2.Lag Reduction

3.Actual Effort to give us more people to play with, server merger, cross server grouping, or new player recruitment and retention.

4.Class balance in Reaper, and a stop to using way Over Powered Meta Chasing as a way to create revenue. This started with Warlock and still continues today, its bs because they make the new meta 200%-300% better than every thing else forcing you to play and buy it or eat it.

All while subpar content and poor loot design leaves nothing to chase in subsequent expansions, filled with dungeons that heavily favor ranged and caster play style, with a challenge mode that exasperates these issues to the 9th degree.

So what's it going be SSG do you want our money or don't you?

[Vint]

The game is no longer the product. Items such as faster progress and direct character power increases sold to you a-la-carte are the product. The game is now simply the environment which will be kept up and running, even when it means it's held together by duct tape and chicken wire - where you use the real product being sold to you. The more the revenue stream relies on those items, the more compromised the game environment becomes.

Chai ~2012

Welcome Back! Been way too long

IMHO, I think it comes down to the value of $10, not the extras SSG might give us. This is pocket change for hours of entertainment per month. While I do feel horrible for those that cannot afford to pay and would never make fun or belittle, I think there are too many Karen's on the boards demanding a manager because they want 99% off of everything.

[hit_fido]

FYI, DDO had between 2-3 million players, almost daily until 2010-ish.

This is fantasy, I can't fathom how anyone could believe there were 2-3 MILLION daily active users, at any time, during DDO's history. Where does this come from?

Here's a couple rational sources for historical performance:

https://massivelyop.com/2019/09/21/the-game-archaeologist-the-day-dungeons-and-dragons-online-dropped-the-free-to-play-bomb/


With less than 100,000 players as of 2008, DDO wasn’t exactly the MMO of choice for most players. World of Warcraft was still on its way to peak subscribership, and newer titles like Age of Conan and Warhammer Online captured the excitement of the “what’s next?” crowd. In light of that, it’s not hard to understand why Turbine would take what was then seen as a great gamble with a product that had lost favor with players.


Eberron Unlimited, the relaunch of the game for North American audiences, went live on September 1st, 2009. There was no going back after this moment. Ars Technica reported that by October, massive crowds were pouring into DDO. There were at least double the number of people trying it out than Turbine had anticipated, and even better, subscription numbers were up an amazing 40%. It was an instant success story.


By February 2010 and the game’s fourth birthday, over a million people had sampled DDO’s free-to-play wares. Subscriber counts had doubled since the F2P launch and store sales were allegedly 500% the industry standard (whatever that may be). Turbine was invited to speak on the phenomenon at various industry panels.

https://www.engadget.com/2010-02-26-one-million-new-adventurers-in-dungeons-and-dragons-online.html


That's why it should come as no surprise to hear that since relaunching as a hybrid F2P in September, DDO has managed to amass more than 1 million new players who had never played the game before. According to Turbine, there are over twice as many paid subscribers as there were prior to the change. The revenue from DDO store transactions is now also over 500% -- three times the industry standard for similar titles!

Moving to free to play turned DDO around and brought it back to life, but it still only capped out at around a million or so players trying the game. Some much smaller segment of those people trying a free game ended up falling in love with it, like myself, and stuck around. A steady decline in players occurring over 13 years is where we are now, but at least it's still here.

[Zites]

The game is no longer the product. Items such as faster progress and direct character power increases sold to you a-la-carte are the product. The game is now simply the environment which will be kept up and running, even when it means it's held together by duct tape and chicken wire - where you use the real product being sold to you. The more the revenue stream relies on those items, the more compromised the game environment becomes.

Chai ~2012.

From a business perspective they might be able to justify it, but its easy to see how from a gamers perspective, this business model is the least perferred. The one way it gets worse is when they turn up the degree of it.

The barriers to entry:
Character power gap between long standing players and new players.
Cost of all expansions where vast majority of BiS loot resides.
Selling the ability to correct a build mistake to new(er) players is a major issue many long time players take for granted.
...also: constantly changing meta incentivizing players ot change their builds.
Hilariously long farm to obtain character power now includes AP increases in multiple progression systems. Expectation is people will buy their way past the farm.

These things only increase in magnitude the more time passes. The "plan" to address them is still to charge for the solution on an a-la-carte basis. This results in a (very) high new player churn rate. This doesn't look good to a gamer, but from the business perspective, every time this catches a new big spender who will pay to catch up in an every added progression system, this model is deemed a success.
Ahh, to be at variance with the chai as I prefer coffee.

Question,
What do you think the MAJORITY of People that spent 6.9MM in 9months in 2020 were buying when they reached into there purses?

I use majority in said question as the larger number or part of something just so there is no misunderstanding.

For brevity's sake, 2nd Question.
What do you think the MAJORITY of new players were buying over said time frame?

Lastly, how would you suggest merging these two groups?

Don't forget the Majority wont buy just any prescription, they want, what they want.
If your suggestion fails to bring in the Majority of stated 6.9MM in 9months its a fail.

[Captain_Wizbang]

..

OK, you're the expert. Good luck Einstein. Keep digging, you'll find proof we had that many players

[hit_fido]

OK, you're the expert. Good luck Einstein. Keep digging, you'll find proof we had that many players

Good effort.

[spifflove]

First off thank you for the game model that has preserved this game for so long.

Here is what I would do because yes more players are good:

1. Anyone f2p who joins a vip lead group gets to join if the quest was covered by the last coupon code as a guest pass.

2. Free anniversary armor only free to vip everyone else grinds. (I’m f2p)

3. Archetypes vip only first month

4. Astral shard allotment for gold rolls, chest rolls, wilderness transports etc.

5. Exclusive ddo store access to all discontinued cosmetics and hirelings.

[Zites]

Welcome Back! Been way too long

IMHO, I think it comes down to the value of $10, not the extras SSG might give us. This is pocket change for hours of entertainment per month. While I do feel horrible for those that cannot afford to pay and would never make fun or belittle, I think there are too many Karen's on the boards demanding a manager because they want 99% off of everything.

Speaking of Karen's, I feel not, and the continued placating of those, is to the determent of the game.
Wise to agree, $10 is pocket change for hours of entertainment per month.
Interest in said entertainment wanes, as hours ebb away to other forms of entertainment.

So here's the question that is in need, to retain Karen's interest and her purse strings.

What do you think the MAJORITY of People that spent 6.9MM in 9months in 2020 were buying when they reached into there purses?

What do you think the MAJORITY of new players were buying over said time frame?

How would you suggest merging these two groups?


PS. here is a little math for ya.
3/4 of $100 a year is $75, over 9months X 5,000 active players, falls just a tad short, of what it takes to keep this ship going, to the tune of 6.6MM short.

Just so you get the jest of it its $138.00 a month not $10.

[KoobTheProud]

2020 is a bad comparison. People were trapped in front of their screens for most of the year and so normal outside entertainment dollars went to virtual online stuff instead.

The years I would be looking at for revenue comparisons if I was SSG are 2019 and 2022. Those two years probably offer the best view into where DDO's revenue stream is right now. Masterminds of Sharn dropped mid-2019 and Isle of Dread mid-2022 so they are both major x-pac years for revenues.

[Vint]

Speaking of Karen's, I feel not, and the continued placating of those, is to the determent of the game.
Wise to agree, $10 is pocket change for hours of entertainment per month.
Interest in said entertainment wanes, as hours ebb away to other forms of entertainment.

So here's the question that is in need, to retain Karen's interest and her purse strings.

What do you think the MAJORITY of People that spent 6.9MM in 9months in 2020 were buying when they reached into there purses?

What do you think the MAJORITY of new players were buying over said time frame?

How would you suggest merging these two groups?


PS. here is a little math for ya.
3/4 of $100 a year is $75, over 9months X 5,000 active players, falls just a tad short, of what it takes to keep this ship going, to the tune of 6.6MM short.

Just so you get the jest of it its $138.00 a month not $10.


I make no suggestions for merging anything. I'll give them 10/month and $200/year when points are on sale. If their model fails, that's life and we move on.

It is you who seems to want more. Write Cordovan and your local congressman a sternly worded letter that you want 6 otto's boxes, 10,000 AS, and 3 Big Mac's PER MONTH or you will NEVER go VIP.

[Sylvado]

4. Astral shard allotment for gold rolls, chest rolls, wilderness transports etc.




The 500 points is 100 AS and is across all servers, AS would be tied to a server. Most of my AS spend goes to HC guild ships.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Good effort.


You wouldn't know, you weren't playing back then. Ask a few of the founders how popular this game was pre F2P.

[Zites]

I make no suggestions for merging anything.Didn't expect you had any suggestions.



I'll give them 10/month and $200/year when points are on sale.Like most but not enough.



If their model fails, that's life and we move on.Yep.



It is you who seems to want more.Yep.



Write Cordovan and your local congressman a sternly worded letterNope.



that you want 6 otto's boxes, 10,000 AS, and 3 Big Mac's PER MONTH or you will NEVER go VIP.I don't want 6 otto's boxes, 10,000 AS, and 3 Big Mac's PER MONTH.

My reply was double the points that's 1000 a month, and increase the options in the pick-um box.
Not more boxes just more options to chose from.

[Vint]

I don't want 6 otto's boxes, 10,000 AS, and 3 Big Mac's PER MONTH.

My reply was double the points that's 1000 a month, and increase the options in the pick-um box.
Not more boxes just more options to chose from.

I can and do agree with this. My comment may have been harsh and was not directed at you. Many are wanting the farm included with VIP and it is nuts.

I do wish they would sweeten the pot a bit, not going to hold my breath.

Cheers

[slarden]

My reply was double the points that's 1000 a month, and increase the options in the pick-um box.
Not more boxes just more options to chose from.

Historically this happened for a summer many years ago. I doubt it would be on the table for the simple reason it's cheaper than buying points when they are on sale. That would be 12,000 points for $99.

The value of the 6,000 points is around $50 (the cost of buying points at the highest tier when on sale). For the remaining $50 they are providing a vip xp bonus, allowing you to use some unowned content, doubling the time-out, allowing opening on elite, etc.

[Bunker]

FYI, DDO had between 2-3 million players, almost daily until 2010-ish.

Bwhahahaha.






No

[Captain_Wizbang]

Bwhahahaha.






No


ten ton hammer in 2007 published #'s for WoW & DDO. I'm not making this up muchcacho

[Zites]

Historically this happened for a summer many years ago. I doubt it would be on the table for the simple reason it's cheaper than buying points when they are on sale. That would be 12,000 points for $99.

The value of the 6,000 points is around $50 (the cost of buying points at the highest tier when on sale). For the remaining $50 they are providing a vip xp bonus, allowing you to use some unowned content, doubling the time-out, allowing opening on elite, etc.

I'm aware of of point sale prices, I've also suggested X3 points sale going forward, available on on purchases over $200-.
Doing this as part of a new approach with the goal of growing the game not milking it dry.


1.Make VIP worth it.

2.Encourage new player recruitment by combining streamers/sales/incentives with a hands-on approach.
Hire a few 1-3 well known players and pair them with members of the team, players that like to hand hold,
and pay them to do so. Players that want to build their guilds and lead raids of Newbs.

3.Set up 2 New Leader Boards
One for best Push Raid leaders for highest difficulty completions, 2nd Leader Board for total number of completions each month regardless of difficultly, reward exclusive cosmetics that signify to players who's who, PUSH Raid Leaders or GOOD Teacher Leaders and their Guilds.

4.Sell Pay to catch up items that require group play.

[Chai]

DDO peaked at ~110K active accounts in 2010.
https://i.ibb.co/rmq0vRR/DDO-subs-graph-mmo-data.png

[KoobTheProud]

Tabula Rasa broke my heart. Great concept with really strange mechanics. Running out of ammo was actually running out of ammo.

Richard Garriot game of course. The King of great ideas not followed up to a practical conclusion.