Character Style Balance - Sorc at an Anniversary Party

[Raithe]

Below is a video clip of my sorceror making a standard Anniversary Party run. This is not a speed run, it's just one run of what will end up being dozens. The point of posting this to the forums is for comparison purposes. I plan to use this initial post to illustrate why I think the "character style" (a combination of class abilities and combat style advantages) balance of DDO leaves much to be desired.


https://youtu.be/1SGDbxQ-Fdw

The sorc is first life, 28-point, no raid gear. Yet I use her or a similar sorceror of the appropriate level for any of the following:

1) Crystal Cove for ingredients
2) Cannith challenges for ingredients
3) Anniversary Party for favors
4) Mabar challenges for ingredients
5) Eveningstar challenges for ingredients
6) Saga quests for the purpose of trading the skill tome in for purified Eberron dragonshard fragments.

This has been true for I would say close to 15 years.

I will be running Anniversary Party on other characters, particularly melee characters, and seeing how well I can do in comparison. I will post the best attempts and make comparison comments. You can do likewise, or you can comment on the comparisons I make or any of the videos (I can't prevent you from posting anything you want, of course).

What "character style" do you think works best in this game?

Notes about this initial video (I may update this later):
1) After reviewing it a few times, it seems clear that most things in the challenge are just minor speed bumps, including some of the red-named. I doubt that will be true for most other characters that I use for this thread.
2) In at least one fight, I think I come out of it with more hit points than I went into it, without healing.

[Valerianus]

sorry, maybe i'm misunderstanding, but i have the impression that this would be about the endless game balance thing, but this has nothing to do with game balance, or representative of it whatsoever.


from what you describe the goal is a so-called "challenge farmer" build.

to stay on this topic, yeah i think you are doing it right :)


sure i agree the class, or multiclass, is very important, the character style, usually it's a first lifer and you usually want speed, buffs, dd, self-heal, while having good dps, all tailored for the normal diff the challenges are scaled to so yeah a squishy first life sorc will do good for the goal of mats\min + solo + stay alive, no way you are doing it imho e.g. with a pure fighter, maybe a multiclass swashbuckler for run speed and buffs and heals and dd, but usually casters are used for buffs and dd and aoe damage, aoe damage means speed. for heroics i would not have chosen a sorc, in epics it's a bit different, cocoon for everyone + full ap builds so everything is a lot easier, more build options.

also personal preferences, my old challenge farmer is a lvl 15, the usual golden level, iconic bladeforged pala2\warlock13, no worries about sp, warlock is survivable + easy racial self-heal in heroics, buffs, aoe, dd. when i rolled it was good, now i don't know anymore, i'm not into challenges anymore.



may i suggest you, imho if you have access to falconer, take sprint boost for moar speed.

[mrfantastic1]

Below is a video clip of my sorceror making a standard Anniversary Party run. This is not a speed run, it's just one run of what will end up being dozens. The point of posting this to the forums is for comparison purposes. I plan to use this initial post to illustrate why I think the "character style" (a combination of class abilities and combat style advantages) balance of DDO leaves much to be desired.


https://youtu.be/1SGDbxQ-Fdw

The sorc is first life, 28-point, no raid gear. Yet I use her or a similar sorceror of the appropriate level for any of the following:

1) Crystal Cove for ingredients
2) Cannith challenges for ingredients
3) Anniversary Party for favors
4) Mabar challenges for ingredients
5) Eveningstar challenges for ingredients
6) Saga quests for the purpose of trading the skill tome in for purified Eberron dragonshard fragments.

This has been true for I would say close to 15 years.

I will be running Anniversary Party on other characters, particularly melee characters, and seeing how well I can do in comparison. I will post the best attempts and make comparison comments. You can do likewise, or you can comment on the comparisons I make or any of the videos (I can't prevent you from posting anything you want, of course).

What "character style" do you think works best in this game?

Notes about this initial video (I may update this later):
1) After reviewing it a few times, it seems clear that most things in the challenge are just minor speed bumps, including some of the red-named. I doubt that will be true for most other characters that I use for this thread.
2) In at least one fight, I think I come out of it with more hit points than I went into it, without healing.

Hi Raithe,.
I think I have a interesting approach to this topic. I started forming a cohesive foundation that last night. Looking forward to exploring it more

[Raithe]

...i have the impression that this would be about the endless game balance thing, but this has nothing to do with game balance, or representative of it whatsoever

Please elaborate. I don't exactly follow your point. What part of DDO do you think is unaffected by the comparisons I'm going to make (which I haven't made yet)?



from what you describe the goal is a so-called "challenge farmer" build.


The goal is to make comparisons and have something to look at that backs up the assertion. Challenges didn't exist when the sorc in the initial post was made, which was about 4-5 days after launch of the game. Item #6 in the list isn't related to challenges - it's just completing quests in a strategic manner. My only purpose for playing my own personal version of DDO is to 1) kill time in a diverting fashion, and 2) figure out the best way of doing something. My premise for this thread is that figuring out the best way of doing something (anything in this game really) usually involves a sorceror and rarely involves a melee character.



...so yeah a squishy first life sorc will do good for the goal of mats\min...


"Squishiness" is something I am going to compare, for sure.



...maybe a multiclass swashbuckler for run speed and buffs and heals and dd...


It's funny you should say that...

[LightBear]

Fastest builds are Bard-Barians, swahbuckling not required.
Second fastest are Favored-Fists.
Runner up (pun intended) are Air Sorc with a whip of Barb or a few pinches Bard.

[yfernbottom]

For challenge farming a character that becomes strong at relatively low levels is generally best, at least in my experience. For example, you don't get more party favors for beating something down on an epic rather than heroic character. What you really want is something that is absurdly strong by around level 7 or 8, to max out your ability to blow through mobs that are still low level (your level +5 or so from the dropdown) and relatively weak.

[Rockcrusher99]

From what I've seen, the event isn't intended to be a major challenge for most players. I'm sure that's by design for approachability.

On max-level runs, my caster used to one-shot most of the bosses with a force-based Shiradi before the newer ED changes. We ran 4-man 2:09 runs and 2:30 two-man runs.
With the new EDs, almost every caster and melee build in the game can destroy these bosses quickly.

In a nutshell, I wouldn't use this event or any other as a yardstick for measuring player classes or damage.

[C-Dog]

from what you describe the goal is a so-called "challenge farmer" build.
I find the other end of the spectrum is a "sweet spot", before enemy casters get any real "save or suck" spells.

Level 5 Artificer 3/Barb 1/Fighter 1. Needs the right gear - not elite sets (tho' those would certainly help), but a simple 1-slot CC'd repeater (for +6d6 elemental damage), a few key items of drop gear, a couple easily farmed named items, and I use a Mimic cloak (for that DR). Give them Resilience since repeater Arti's don't need to cast repeated spells, and the kensai +8/+8 boost. Gets the job done (almost always) without fail.

(And there are some flaws in this comparison - obviously can't go for the top-tier Crystal Cove materials. :p)


Maybe what you're observing is less about character balance, and more about how a well-thought out build is superior to a random one, even with similar gear.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I am a strong advocate of a tireless pursuit of balance in games. This does not mean all classes being equally good at all things. 28 pt Sorc being good for speed running easy content is WAI IMO.

[Raithe]

28 pt Sorc being good for speed running easy content is WAI IMO.

Three things:

1) You can take that stance, but it ignores the fact that new players of other characters (non-sorcs, non-warlocks) have to go through character progression. Right now, non-reaper heroic progression (as in the original game up to level 20) is what I would call broken. Yes, you can solo it instead of grouping, but that doesn't exactly appeal to the internet gaming population, and even less to the typical fans of RPGs. No new players (or very few) eventually leads to server shutdown, it would be inevitable.

2) Level 37 on Anniversary Party is a six-star, as in that is as high as it goes. I would call it somewhere between legendary hard and legendary elite on a standard quest, at least as far as CR levels and DCs.

3) I wanted to complete the challenge in the video and make it clear what actually happened, but it wasn't important to the comparisons I am going to make. The point is not the speed run, which it wasn't. The dissection of the differences between "character styles" will be much more nuanced than just looking at the completion time, which is why I posted a video instead of a screenshot.

For anyone wondering, It will likely be a few days before I have comparisons to post. I wanted to post the initial video up front to let anyone wanting to post their own video adequate time before I stop adding to the thread. I actually have to get some of my melee characters to level 32 (from 31) before I can make a fair comparison.

[C-Dog]

Three things:

1) ... Yes, you can solo it instead of grouping, but that doesn't exactly appeal to the internet gaming population, and even less to the typical fans of RPGs.
I am always amused by statements like this.

Have you done a wide poll of "the internet gaming population", or of "typical fans of RPG's"?

I have no problem if you say "of my group" or "of the people I game with" or "in my Guild" - but (I'm confident in guessing) that you really are not in a position to speak for a wide population with any authority.

I'm confident in this, b/c I know a lot of people who enjoy soloing. I sincerely doubt that it's the majority, but they are as "typical" as any other. :cool:

[Raithe]

I am always amused by statements like this.
Have you done a wide poll of "the internet gaming population", or of "typical fans of RPG's"?


No polls are needed, the information is built into the very terms "online" and "role-playing."

1) There are TONS of single-player, non-online games. They are, in fact, more popular than online games. People go to online play to play with other people. The only reason I play solo is precisely what this thread is about.
2) Role-playing means taking part as a sub-construct of a social group. The term "role" is about playing a fighter, or a mage, or a rogue in a group of adventurers.

The part where I may be out on a limb is assuming people won't want to solo to get to the point they can take part in an online social group. I'm willing to take that bet simply because of a long life and experience with humans.

[yfernbottom]

2) Role-playing means taking part in a sub-construct of a social group. The term "role" is about playing a fighter, or a mage, or a rogue in a group of adventurers.



No. That is something very specific to Diku based MMOs. It's not even universally true of PnP DnD, which is where the idea of those mechanical class roles in a party basically game from. The "role" refers to taking on the role of a fictional character, and deciding how they deal with situations and develop over time in the fictional setting they are embedded in. It can be done entirely solo in a CRPG (including a MMO), though to someone roleplaying in the sense of taking on a fictional personality it is pretty pointless without an audience I will allow. In a pen and paper game you generally need at least two players, though there are gamebooks that blur the line.

This is pretty close to the standard definition (from Wikipedia):

"A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game, RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development. Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines."

[C-Dog]

2) Role-playing means taking part as a sub-construct of a social group. The term "role" is about playing a fighter, or a mage, or a rogue in a group of adventurers.
Sorry, when you said "RPG" I thought "MMORPG" - my mistake. I had no idea you were talking about table top.

(Why are you talking about tabletop in a MMO Game? There is not a lot of room for "role playing" in DDO, unless your static group is doing that.)

[Valerianus]

Please elaborate. I don't exactly follow your point. What part of DDO do you think is unaffected by the comparisons I'm going to make (which I haven't made yet)?

The goal is to make comparisons and have something to look at that backs up the assertion. Challenges didn't exist when the sorc in the initial post was made, which was about 4-5 days after launch of the game. Item #6 in the list isn't related to challenges - it's just completing quests in a strategic manner. My only purpose for playing my own personal version of DDO is to 1) kill time in a diverting fashion, and 2) figure out the best way of doing something. My premise for this thread is that figuring out the best way of doing something (anything in this game really) usually involves a sorceror and rarely involves a melee character.

"Squishiness" is something I am going to compare, for sure.

It's funny you should say that...


the "endless game balance thing" i was referring to is the whole "nerf the casters cause balance reasons" endless arguing and i find it weird cause i think there's no balance, it will never be, there is meta-shift. sure it's not nice when happens that something is ridicolously overpowered, but i don't think that it is happening now. about some melee tweak, yes, would be good.
i added that the party event can't be used as a metric imho.
so i wanted to say, yeah i admit what i wrote was not clear, that i expected yet another nerf casters thread but when i saw the party event involved i was not so sure anymore, cause some party event performance comparison means nothing.

but then you wrote "My premise for this thread is that figuring out the best way of doing something (anything in this game really) usually involves a sorceror and rarely involves a melee character" so in the end now i'm confused again, probably just because we see so many threads about nerf casters that even one, like yours, that does not say it explicitly, it triggers the feeling that it is saying it maybe implicitly.
i apologize, maybe the mess it's me thinking wrong and jumping to conclusions.


oh, that swashbuckler thing, i randomly mentioned it cause years ago, don't mind it, when sb was new-ish, i happened to duo some challenges with a friend, he wanted to farm stuff specially in the rushmore mansion series, and he did a pdk bard swashbuckler with some fighter and 1 barb iirc. it was very effective to run fast in that place and single target dps the bosses, with a couple of self buffs and heals. i was talking about challenges and it came to mind for no real reason. also he played it good, i am slow even if you give me a fast char.

after all, if building with a goal, a class is a tool, and we can combine tools for a purpose. so interesting.

anyway, now that i think about the topic, the anniversary event can be done fast by a melee too for sure, by any build that can just solo kill the bosses, if you have to solo. there are no large pack of mobs in this event iirc. also it's not mandatory to stop and kill everything.

you said a really nice thing " My only purpose for playing my own personal version of DDO is to 1) kill time in a diverting fashion, and 2) figure out the best way of doing something" yeah me too, totally what i am doing too, well, what i am trying to do: 1) have fun and 2) the meta aka learn something and try to improve. probably all of us, in some fashion. the problem\boon is we all see and define and prioritize things differently (yes i know, i'm stating the obvious) so we players discuss non-stop but that's why forum is a cool different game inside the game, after all.

ranting again, i'd better stop.

[Stradivarius]

Raithe, post a pure melee (fighter, monk, barb etc.) 28 pt no spectacular gear. Get it on YT, no tricks just vanilla straight up run it. It'll be hilarious.

P.S. Wouldn't be surprised if you even died.

[magaiti]

Fastest builds are Bard-Barians, swahbuckling not required.
Second fastest are Favored-Fists.
Runner up (pun intended) are Air Sorc with a whip of Barb or a few pinches Bard.
Bard-Barian: 30 + 19 fast movement + 10 barb + 15 Fleeting Footsteps
Sacred Fist: 30 + 20 fast movement + (10 SD OR 15 GMoF mantle)

edit: wanted to make an argument for SF being faster, but Sacred Defender 10% and GMoF 15% are both action boost bonuses

[Raithe]

Below is a speed run (as in I was trying to complete as fast as I could) for my primary melee character, which used to be a fighter/rogue (my version of a swashbuckler before the enhancement tree existed), but was reconfigured when the tree was released. The character is first life, 32-point (Drow), and was made a couple of months after launch of the game (when I earned Drow favor).


https://youtu.be/lmAusf30Vgo

Comparisons

Damage
Analysis: The sorceror won all the damage contests, except for Lichabel, which was a tie. Note the sorceror could have used "Awaken Elemental Weakness" against the lich and it would have reduced the fight time dramatically (more than a 50% cut).

Bard-Fighter Melee


Challenge Star Fight
Video Time
Duration


Steelstar
1:01 - 1:45
44 seconds


Cordovan
2:17 - 2:54
37 seconds


Severlin
3:45 - 4:23
38 seconds


Lichabel
5:02 - 6:05
63 seconds


The Dark Overlord
14:42 - 15:00
18 seconds



Sorceror


Challenge Star Fight
Video Time
Duration


Steelstar
0:46 - 1:08
22 seconds


Cordovan
1:33 - 1:48
15 seconds


Severlin
2:33 - 2:45
12 seconds


Lichabel
3:52 - 4:55
63 seconds


The Dark Overlord
12:23 - 12:36
13 seconds



Defense
Analysis: neither character is in danger of dying in this quest, but the following notes could be taken:
1) The melee definitely takes less damage when hit, but spends more time in the middle of a thicket of mobs.
2) The sorc can "fly" away and heal under any conditions that seem problematic, and has "Barrier of Scales" to use and reuse to effectively add ~400 hit points on top of her actual hit points. She also has "Mass Protection from Elements" for a similar effect against elemental attacks.
3) As you raise the dungeon CR levels and damage amounts, the melee is going to have to spend more time healing and less time attacking. Not as true for the sorceror.

General Spelunking
Analysis: The melee character spent 7 minutes and 7 seconds running the kobold gauntlet (video time: 6:33 - 13:40) until he can talk to Jeets without interruption. The sorceror only spent 5 minutes 38 seconds (video time: 5:33 - 11:05) and killed more mobs. The sorceror has a huge advantage dealing with mobs from a distance and using effects like chain lightning that don't require mobs to be closely gathered. Note both characters have dimension door and access to scrolls including 9th level and artificer. The melee cannot use his sprint boost very often, because of the need to use other boosts which can't activate simultaneously.

Overall
I could probably beat the non-speed-run time of my sorc on the melee bard/fighter, with enough practice and optimization. I'm not going to bother. The sorceror simply does better at almost everything.

[Dmitrythewizzy]

I could probably beat the non-speed-run time of my sorc on the melee bard/fighter, with enough practice and optimization. I'm not going to bother. The sorceror simply does better at almost everything.

I can do the same thing as your sorc on my bombadier fire alch so you are balanced with him at least.

[rabidfox]

Nothing lives thru Endless Fusilade on my lowish damage utility artificer with the occasional exception of Steelstar because of how he's scripted. So 18 seconds or less on every fight.

IIRC the hardest part of the anniversary fights is coming in on lower level characters solo that can't deal with certain fights. Lich is a beast that's a pain on lower level casters because of Mantle of Invulnerability. (this is going off memory of my FvS caster not being able to kill Lich in a prior year's event)

[gravisrs]

Don't underestimate low levels :) 13 party favors in 6 mins. I just recorded this for you, so might be not the smoothest run.

First lifer (champion) level 4, no wings, not a sorc, just some easy obtainable gear (except quiver) and SLA with metamagics, some tomes involved. Oh and invis on the long run.

I can build this for every class you want with similar result.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL_Cu_pW8m8

[boredGamer]

OP - I would delete this thread for your own sake.

Thf Barb and horizon walker 13/6/1 rogue did it in 6 minutes.

This shouldn’t be challenging for any character so I’m not sure how you compare not challenging to other not challenging and try to pull comparisons.

Why not just run real content to compare something if you’re trying to make a point ?

[magaiti]

Ranged AoE DPS character completed non-challenging content in 5 minutes.
Melee Single-target DPS character with a suspiciously unoptimised level split completed same content in 7 minutes.
So what?

[scut207]

ROCK IS OVERPOWERED
PAPER IS FINE
Scissors need buffs!!!

-scissors

[slarden]

Ranged AoE DPS character completed non-challenging content in 5 minutes.
Melee Single-target DPS character with a suspiciously unoptimised level split completed same content in 7 minutes.
So what?

OP - I would delete this thread for your own sake.

Thf Barb and horizon walker 13/6/1 rogue did it in 6 minutes.

This shouldn’t be challenging for any character so I’m not sure how you compare not challenging to other not challenging and try to pull comparisons.

Why not just run real content to compare something if you’re trying to make a point ?

I understand a sorc is going to blow through mobs faster than most melees. But at least for me I've always been able to get higher single-target dps with a martial build, but maybe the results are vert different in super easy content such as what is being used by the op since a few big spells are much more impactful in easy content.

I don't know I focus on reaper mode only and while I don't always use perfectly optimized gear I tend to at least use b+ gear even on deep alts. Raid weapons are generally much more impactful for martial builds vs. caster builds.

I tend to invis past a bunch of mobs in that quest - no real point fighting them even if they are easyish.


ROCK IS OVERPOWERED
PAPER IS FINE
Scissors need buffs!!!

-scissors

For sure, although I do think melee can use some help, but dps is not the problem at least based on my experience with assassin and to a lesser extent barbarian. Not sure about the build the op is using.

Trying to make melee a little more solo-friendly perhaps, maybe some universal tactics or defenses in an ED/Enh tree.

As someone that runs many builds I think "better" is very dependent on content run, difficulty level, player objective, # of party members and many other factors.

In the scenario the op is focused on - easy content - yeah high aoe and big burst damage rules easy content. Easy content isn't for me, but I don't understand why anyone has a problem with any build in easy content.

My main complaint with melee is that in R10s some of the cleave and AOE damage around a small # of bosses is over-tuned impacting primarily non-tank melees. So many melee R10 deaths have little to do with what the player does.

[scut207]

OP is taking challenge trash mobs and blowing threw them with a sorc, which has always been the unmitigated king of trash mob clearing.

Meaningless point, outside of folks who play on no harder than normal.

Can a sorc face-tank a doom reaper? Can a sorc disarm traps? Can a sorc outside of WF heal itself?

I don't get this sort of whinging, are there some classes over looked? sure.

I just got done playing a bunch of melee, working on racial lives, I do honestly think most melee enhancement based attacks on ridiculously long CDs and could likely be trimmed by 50% or more. Why the hell are barb CD on 6s, 12s or 30s what most casters can do on a 3 sec rotation. Agreed it's stupid.

However, given how SSG operates, some people calling for buffs of some classes by showing off others performance, haven't yet figured out in 15 years that when they play this performative tantrum about class balance, what they get is just knee jerk nerfs on other classes.

Which doesn't help them or their favorite class, but gets other people mad, which in turn makes people not want to play.

and yes DDO is way too bursty both incoming and outgoing. No one should be getting one shot playing in the "proper difficulty" for their gear/RXP.

I'm still half convinced that some folks would be happy to burn it all down if they dont get what they want.

[boredGamer]

OP is taking challenge trash mobs and blowing threw them with a sorc, which has always been the unmitigated king of trash mob clearing.


Blowing through them? Didn't he post the worst time so far by double?

If we're indeed using this thread as data, which is nonsense, of course, sorc needs to be vastly buffed.

[scut207]

Blowing through them? Didn't he post the worst time so far by double?

If we're indeed using this thread as data, which is nonsense, of course, sorc needs to be vastly buffed.

I'm only going by the data OP is "providing"

which shows his sorc beating is melee but only by 10-12% speed.

however, no one cares. I dont.

I dont think it is possible to "balance" a melee vs a caster in this "ruleset", the fact that people think its important in a non PVP game is bonkers.

[LT218]

Below is a video clip of my sorceror making a standard Anniversary Party run. This is not a speed run, it's just one run of what will end up being dozens. The point of posting this to the forums is for comparison purposes. I plan to use this initial post to illustrate why I think the "character style" (a combination of class abilities and combat style advantages) balance of DDO leaves much to be desired.

The sorc is first life, 28-point, no raid gear. Yet I use her or a similar sorceror of the appropriate level for any of the following:

1) Crystal Cove for ingredients
2) Cannith challenges for ingredients
3) Anniversary Party for favors
4) Mabar challenges for ingredients
5) Eveningstar challenges for ingredients
6) Saga quests for the purpose of trading the skill tome in for purified Eberron dragonshard fragments.

This has been true for I would say close to 15 years.

I will be running Anniversary Party on other characters, particularly melee characters, and seeing how well I can do in comparison. I will post the best attempts and make comparison comments. You can do likewise, or you can comment on the comparisons I make or any of the videos (I can't prevent you from posting anything you want, of course).

What "character style" do you think works best in this game?

Notes about this initial video (I may update this later):
1) After reviewing it a few times, it seems clear that most things in the challenge are just minor speed bumps, including some of the red-named. I doubt that will be true for most other characters that I use for this thread.
2) In at least one fight, I think I come out of it with more hit points than I went into it, without healing.
Picks an AoE nuker class and runs relatively easy content that favors AoE playstyle, then complains that AoE style class is better at AoE than other types?

News at 11, water is wet.


The problem is not that one particular class is better at a specific type of content. They should be. Otherwise, what's the point in having the huge variety of classes and builds DDO offers?

What you should be complaining about is that for the past however many years, the only content the designers and devs seem to know how to create is "enter room with 20 mobs, clear room, maybe do a puzzle or press a button, go to next room with 20 mobs, rinse, repeat" ad nauseum.

If you think about it, the lower heroic content (aka the older stuff) doesn't have packs of 10+ mobs every 20 feet in a quest. The packs of mobs are much smaller and sometimes even have single mobs /gasp!.

This type of content balances out the single-target DPS classes vs the AoErs much better than any half-baked nerfs SSG is likely to shove out in the eternal quest for better balance.


P.S. Out of curiosity's sake, I just did a 15ish minute run on a sword and board 18/2 first-life Paladin/Fighter with mostly heroic gear (no raid gear). Did all the optionals and killed any mobs that aggrod (no invis or zerging past them) mainly because it's been a few years since I've run the anniv quest and didn't remember the optimal order. Could probably knock several minutes off that if I ran it a few times and got the pattern down again.

A proper 2HF paladin or better yet a barb should be able to mow through them much quicker.

[Raithe]

Thf Barb and horizon walker 13/6/1 rogue did it in 6 minutes.


Let's see the videos, post the links. That will let us analyze what the stark differences in time are about, because it may not be about anything I'm discussing here. The point of this thread is not about speed running Anniversary Party. I'm using Anniversary Party because it has discreet red-named fights of various types of mobs, and then a gauntlet run. The gauntlet run isn't really that important.



This shouldn’t be challenging for any character...

It is challenging for some characters, that's what this thread is about. If it was identically easy for every character in the game, then I wouldn't be making any assertions of imbalance.
So speak for your own retinue, or better yet, post your own video of your run on your character, entirely solo.

[Raithe]

I understand a sorc is going to blow through mobs faster than most melees. But at least for me I've always been able to get higher single-target dps with a martial build, but maybe the results are vert different in super easy content such as what is being used by the op since a few big spells are much more impactful in easy content.


No, they aren't. It's all just scaling. Reaper mode is just elite mode (heroic/epic/lengendary) with scaling tacked on. So if a sorc can one-shot a mob in legendary elite, then a melee needs to be able to do almost the same thing, because the sorc's ability is on a cooldown timer and it's going to come back around and do the big damage again if the mob has enough durability. I don't doubt that there are extremely high DPS melee characters in the game that will do way more damage than any of my characters. The point of this thread is that most of the time, they'll never get to the mob to one-shot it if they are running with a pack of casters (or high DPS ranged).

Note "Anniversary Party" is an event for every type of character and has unique offerings that only it provides.

[Raithe]

...although I do think melee can use some help, but dps is not the problem at least based on my experience with assassin and to a lesser extent barbarian. Not sure about the build the op is using.

Trying to make melee a little more solo-friendly perhaps, maybe some universal tactics or defenses in an ED/Enh tree.


A number of comments have tried to segregate, completely, the ideas of damage and defense as if they weren't related. If your melee has no problems with DPS, even while a soul stone, then just have someone carry your soul stone and you can kill everything super quick because they probably won't be attacking back (at least they don't when I'm a soul stone, but then I normally do 0 DPS when in that state).[/end sarcasm]

A melee's damage output is entirely hinged on being able to survive long enough to do the necessary damage. And in today's game, no one is going to be tethered to a melee character nursing his health bar, either (other than a hireling, of course).

[Raithe]

Don't underestimate low levels...

A few observations:
1) Thanks for the video, but the point of this thread is to make comparisons to the initial video, which is hard to do in a level 8? version of Anniversary Party.
2) This thread is not about obtaining party favors or speed running Anniversary Party. The challenge is just being used because of its discreet parts that mimic other parts of the game. I could have used any number of quests, raids, or challenges that had sufficient diversity to do the same thing.
3) Despite me saying the 2 things above, you choosing a warlock to do your party favor farming is actually confirming the assertions I'm making in this thread.

[BotteDaOrbi]

A melee's damage output is entirely hinged on being able to survive long enough to do the necessary damage. And in today's game, no one is going to be tethered to a melee character nursing his health bar, either (other than a hireling, of course).

This is only true if you are not running with competent melee.

[Bjond]

this has nothing to do with game balance

The example video unfortunately uses content that is so ridiculously easy that even melee can blast through it. I've done that one on caster, melee, and ranged. It's absurdly easy for all of them. Some parts are harder for each type and it's a different aspect (eg. casters take out trash faster, but bosses slower).

And, yeah, for a challenge style build, speed is the key not necessarily DPS. If your run to the finish is ever slowed or stopped (even it's by you to kill), your build or play has space for improvement.

DDO is in a weird place for an MMO. The population is far FAR lower than I've ever seen an MMO. Most companies pull the plug much sooner. The devs are all just milking it in and "phoning in" changes. Only the most egregious bugs are addressed while others are left to fester for a decade. So, I wouldn't hope for much (or anything) in the way of a balance update.

Still, I think they could balance casters by increasing the flash and bang while decreasing the AE to line it up more with ranged and melee (eg. by capping total damage and dividing by critters hit). IMHO, for die-hard caster players, the draw isn't only about clearing packs fast. A lot of it is about the boom and crash of meteor/etc.. Cosmetics FTW!

[Raithe]

Below is a video of probably around the 6th or 7th run I attempted on my TWF melee, which is a Ranger17/Fighter2/Druid1 multiclass build. It is not a particularly good showing on any of the metrics being used to compare, but it was the best run of all the ones I attemped. This character is first life, 32-point (after LR), and was created on exactly the same day as the sorc in the initial post. The 2 characters were supposed to be my high-damage frontal assault characters, and for a long time that was actually pretty close to being the result. This character stopped being high damage when Furyshot was removed (and then manyshot being revamped was another minor downgrade), but I would say he's still a decent enough character to play on occasion. I didn't have time to get him to level 32, but he's only down about 3 destiny points, a +1 stat upgrade, and some hit points, so I don't think hitting 32 would make a huge difference.


https://youtu.be/00eOJsqmHyQ

Note: this character was originally a Ranger18/Fighter2, but I recently evaluated the effect of taking the 18th level of ranger against 1 of Druid and found the latter preferable, especially for this character. The level of Druid adds +1 to will and fort saves (-1 to reflex), gives more spell points, gives first level Druid spells, and provides a wolf companion that could be used in quests to operate switches, etc. The loss of 1 BAB when the character has a typical combined attack bonus in the hundreds didn't seem important, either.

Comparisons

Damage
Analysis: Even with "Dance of Death" active, I don't think the TWF is typically doing as much damage as the THF bard/fighter in the previous comparison. Neither does "Adrenaline" make a huge difference, at least for this character. His challenge star fight times were pretty bad, even by my low standards:

Steelstar: 83 seconds
Cordovan: 47 seconds
Severlin: 60 seconds
Lichabel: 62 seconds
The Dark Overlord: 73 seconds

This character can also switch to a bow and do fairly standard damage amounts in Prism, the Shiradi Champion destiny mantle, and using Hunt's End. I think that using ranged would be my normal choice for some of the challenge star fights on this character, but I wanted to demonstrate the difficulties (if any) encountered with melee. I think the ranged fights would last even longer, though involve less risk of death.

Defense
Analysis: As he was intended to be DPS-focused, this character is fairly lacking in defense, even compared to the sorc. The video should make this clear. The only thing that saves him from being a soAul stone on several occasions is retreating from the fight and using his moderate healing capabilities. Note this is also a large part of why the damage output is less.

General Spelunking
Analysis: This character doesn't have high UMD, doesn't have dimension door, and took 9 minutes and 15 seconds to pass through the gauntlet of kobolds. A lot of the slowness, as shown in the video, is directly related to having to chase skitish kobolds around, and he may do better in ranged mode. He has the same issue with using sprint boost that I described in my previous comparison - doing so would take some of his other needed boosts off the table for too long of a cooldown.

Overall
Ok, based on some of the responses that occurred after my first comparison, I'm going to try to fully spell out how this comparison thing is supposed to work:

I am making comparisons between my own characters that have similar amounts of (extremely long duration) attention given to them. These characters have been around for most of the 17 years that DDO has existed. One isn't -way- more progressed than another, and I have typically tried to avoid selecting any feat configurations that I thought were purely exploitative of the game mechanics. These are plain first life characters that should be expected outcomes. If my melee are hugely deficient in a way that I haven't noticed while watching others play (via Youtube and privately), or when I played in groups myself, then the proper course of correction would be to post a video showing a melee that doesn't have the deficiency, which should be pretty self-explanatory. Note that having a melee with tons of raid gear, +8 tomes all around, and completionist past lives is not going to be as convincing for this purpose, because of the extreme amounts of time and money that went into that equalization of the game balance (which my characters did not have to endure).

The object here is to take the separate solo performances and visualize how the 2 characters being compared would operate if they were in the same group, running the same content that is used in the comparison. For example, the end fight takes ridiculously short amounts of time for the sorc, so the TWF is not even going to reach the midpoint of his epic moment before the whole thing is over. That sort of visualization is what makes it clear how the imbalance affects the attractiveness of the game to those who would prefer to play the game swinging a sword. I don't want to make unfounded assertions here, but if I were forced to make a bet, I would say that a majority of the people that would play a game like DDO are in the category of preferring melee. That's just a guess, but one based on a lot of online gameplay.

Regarding this particular character, I would say he is both squishier and less effective damage-wise than the sorc. I am not sure why I would ever play him in a group in the current game.

[Raithe]

I've done that one on caster, melee, and ranged. It's absurdly easy for all of them. Some parts are harder for each type and it's a different aspect (eg. casters take out trash faster, but bosses slower).

No one is going to take your word for it. Post a video to make it clear. You probably only have a few hours left, before Anniversary Party goes away for another year.

[scut207]

I mean if your point is a purposely gimped twf is slower on dps than a well-built THF or a pure caster, you win?

Pure ranger would give you +15% doublestrike + 4 Dex and +10% offhand +10Melee Power vs this atrocity.

[Raithe]

The "role" refers to taking on the role of a fictional character, and deciding how they deal with situations and develop over time in the fictional setting they are embedded in. It can be done entirely solo in a CRPG...

Your last sentence is entirely your preference, your belief, because the "C" in CRPG hasn't been around long enough for anyone to make definitive claims about what is and isn't truly a role-playing game. In my preferential view, a CRPG isn't an RPG unless you can play multiple characters at the same time. If it's just a character whose abilities are gated by statistics, then it's really no different than a Duke Nukem or Unreal avatar. In the case of playing multiple characters at the same time, there are essentially multiple players that happen to be the same person. The point being that having multiple characters interacting is key to the "role-playing."



"A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game, RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development. Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines."

Yes, I was trying to oversimplify. The role in role-playing is not about the mechanical nature of a band of adventurers, and it is as the definitions claim. But as you noted, regardless of either case (mine being incorrect as an oversimplification), the importance of having more than one person involved is paramount.

[slarden]

A number of comments have tried to segregate, completely, the ideas of damage and defense as if they weren't related. If your melee has no problems with DPS, even while a soul stone, then just have someone carry your soul stone and you can kill everything super quick because they probably won't be attacking back (at least they don't when I'm a soul stone, but then I normally do 0 DPS when in that state).[/end sarcasm]

A melee's damage output is entirely hinged on being able to survive long enough to do the necessary damage. And in today's game, no one is going to be tethered to a melee character nursing his health bar, either (other than a hireling, of course).

There are some specific encounters in the game that are very melee unfriendly on R10 - specifically where there are aoe or cleave type attacks that can one shot a melee even if there is a tank holding aggro. In general I think aoe and cleave damage should be reduced as it's punishing to non-tank melees. I would like to see that addressed by either fixing those encounters (ideal) or possibly even giving melees some defensive clickies to deal with such encounters. The latter has the downside of making content outside those fringe cases too easy which is why I prefer toning down cleaves and aoe where melees take damage even when there is a tank with aggro.

As far as the specific content you are commenting on - I would never be a soul stone in the anniversary event on ANY build including melees and that might possibly be an area where we differ. If you aren't able to survive on a melee in the anniversary event there are definitely things that can be done to change that outcome. This is a very easy thing to overcome.


No, they aren't. It's all just scaling. Reaper mode is just elite mode (heroic/epic/lengendary) with scaling tacked on. So if a sorc can one-shot a mob in legendary elite, then a melee needs to be able to do almost the same thing, because the sorc's ability is on a cooldown timer and it's going to come back around and do the big damage again if the mob has enough durability. I don't doubt that there are extremely high DPS melee characters in the game that will do way more damage than any of my characters. The point of this thread is that most of the time, they'll never get to the mob to one-shot it if they are running with a pack of casters (or high DPS ranged).

Note "Anniversary Party" is an event for every type of character and has unique offerings that only it provides. I disagree. There are a few big bursts casters have with longer cooldowns, e.g., greater ruin, ruin, energy burst. Those have cooldowns, but in the anniversary event you can take down the bosses with them. It's fairly simple - max out spellpower and crits and you will look very good in easy content.

Go to the other end of the spectrum and look at R10 raid bosses and you really care about sustainable dps not burst dps. A melee's sustainable dps is much higher than a caster's if you compare two optimized characters. Melees benefit more from raid gear than casters - not sure why that is the case, but you are more disadvantaged as a melee without raid gear than a caster is, although both benefit.

The scaling absolutely matters as that is what makes sustainable dps more valued than burst dps as you cross a certain threshhold. I am not sure where that threshold is exactly, but it is a higher skull than it was in 2017 due to the ED pass.


The point of this thread is that most of the time, they'll never get to the mob to one-shot it if they are running with a pack of casters (or high DPS ranged).

Note "Anniversary Party" is an event for every type of character and has unique offerings that only it provides.

On this we agree, when running easy content ranged and caster long-range aoe will destroy everything. If you instead had a barbarian running with a bunch of twf fighting builds the barbarian would destroy everything due to superior aoe and run speed. There would still be a build that performs better in easy content than other builds. The core problem is the content is too easy for the power level.

Fixing balance in content that is too easy for most players is problematic if it's done without looking at the other end of the scale. The only way to really fix it is to lower the big bursts and then follow that up by decreasing the penalty per skull on just casting dps so that is scales properly up skulls.

If they really want to fix the problem allow the CR to go much higher and scale up the rewards just a little as you go up. People will run the CR that makes sense for them or that they enjoy most.

[scut207]

No one is saying that TWF doesnt need help.

Very few would argue that most melee doesn't need help in some way.


But the issue is not the run time through a challenge, which is the strawman argument you created for some reason.


What melee DPS classes need is better passive and active damage mitigation, and a reduction on AOE and single target attack cooldowns.

I also think that the trips, stuns and sunders should work on more mobs, and the DCs needs to be easier to attain.

I also think that Stunning blow, because it is a feat, should work on mobs like reapers.

It does feel like a lot more work to make a melee class work, but its not casters fault.

Even if they reduce the CDs on melee AoE dam to the point you can bumrush a challenge like a sorc, what does that do for you in R10 when the boss cleaves 1 shot you?

you gonna complain that casters should have to stand in melee range too? Or address the root issues?

[boredGamer]

Let's see the videos, post the links. That will let us analyze what the stark differences in time are about, because it may not be about anything I'm discussing here. The point of this thread is not about speed running Anniversary Party. I'm using Anniversary Party because it has discreet red-named fights of various types of mobs, and then a gauntlet run. The gauntlet run isn't really that important.



It is challenging for some characters, that's what this thread is about. If it was identically easy for every character in the game, then I wouldn't be making any assertions of imbalance.
So speak for your own retinue, or better yet, post your own video of your run on your character, entirely solo.

I'm definitely not going to bother doing this.

But you've certainly lost any credibility about calling other forumites ignorant.

Good luck with your comparison videos proving nothing except you run the anniversary party very slowly on any character you have.

[Raithe]

I would never be a soul stone in the anniversary event on ANY build including melees and that might possibly be an area where we differ.

That's a load of ****. You know how many waves of lag I got running Anniversary Party just a few score of times? Steelstar's pet seems to apply a debuff that makes even characters with high defenses 400% susceptible to electric or acid damage, and his attacks can do well over 1k damage on level 37.



I disagree. There are a few big bursts casters have with longer cooldowns, e.g., greater ruin, ruin, energy burst. Those have cooldowns, ...

And the cooldown fo energy burst and ruin is 15 seconds. I would guess that greater ruin is the same (not able to test it at the moment). The sorc is ready to hit another energy burst in that initial post about 3 seconds after any of the challenge star fights are over. I don't know why you are making excuses, but I'd prefer analysis that explains exactly what is happening that increases melee DPS for fights that last longer, when caster DPS seems to be quite high for the entire 15 second cooldown period. It could be that vulnerability debuffs and damage buffing increases the melee DPS over the long haul, but from my current understanding of the game, I am not aware of those effects that only benefit physical damage and not elemental or magic.



Go to the other end of the spectrum and look at R10 raid bosses and you really care about sustainable dps not burst dps.


All caster DPS is currently sustainable DPS because of the existence of mana pots. That said, I have no doubt that there are R10 raid bosses that outlast even a sizable stack of those, Which is why I would claim that R10 is really just a ploy to keep people shelling out, and doesn't offer anything interesting in the way of new dynamics, just "more" and "bigger" and "longer." I'm not going to join an R10 raid on any character, maxed-out or not, so I guess I don't agree enough to agree to disagree.



On this we agree, when running easy content ranged and caster long-range aoe should destroy everything.


We don't agree. If level 37 is as easy as this game gets, then they really should stack about 15 more levels into the dropdrown list. If they did that, I would probably still only run about level 40 or so. That would put it about on par with level 32 quests on legendary elite.

I appreciate people making arguments, but I think yours needs a little more association with the actual game mechanics and logic in general.

[Zites]

I'm definitely not going to bother doing this.

But you've certainly lost any credibility about calling other forumites ignorant.

Good luck with your comparison videos proving nothing except you run the anniversary party very slowly on any character you have.

LMAO and yet Raithe's money is as green as yours, therefore of no greater or lesser value then your bias opinion, to a company that can't afford to act like netflicks because a 10-15% revenue drop could mean the chickens have come home to roost.

[Valerianus]

That's a load of ****. You know how many waves of lag I got running Anniversary Party just a few score of times? Steelstar's pet seems to apply a debuff that makes even characters with high defenses 400% susceptible to electric or acid damage, and his attacks can do well over 1k damage on level 37.



And the cooldown fo energy burst and ruin is 15 seconds. I would guess that greater ruin is the same (not able to test it at the moment). The sorc is ready to hit another energy burst in that initial post about 3 seconds after any of the challenge star fights are over. I don't know why you are making excuses, but I'd prefer analysis that explains exactly what is happening that increases melee DPS for fights that last longer, when caster DPS seems to be quite high for the entire 15 second cooldown period. It could be that vulnerability debuffs and damage buffing increases the melee DPS over the long haul, but from my current understanding of the game, I am not aware of those effects that only benefit physical damage and not elemental or magic.



All caster DPS is currently sustainable DPS because of the existence of mana pots. That said, I have no doubt that there are R10 raid bosses that outlast even a sizable stack of those, Which is why I would claim that R10 is really just a ploy to keep people shelling out, and doesn't offer anything interesting in the way of new dynamics, just "more" and "bigger" and "longer." I'm not going to join an R10 raid on any character, maxed-out or not, so I guess I don't agree enough to agree to disagree.



We don't agree. If level 37 is as easy as this game gets, then they really should stack about 15 more levels into the dropdrown list. If they did that, I would probably still only run about level 40 or so. That would put it about on par with level 32 quests on legendary elite.

I appreciate people making arguments, but I think yours needs a little more association with the actual game mechanics and logic in general.



respectfully, the one who needs a little more association with the actual game mechanics and logic in general is you and the nerf the casters crowd. a lot of stuff that Slarden said is spot on, i'd like to stress that fact about some random weird damage cause cleaves. i'm totally in favor for some melee adjustment, but it has nothing to do with casters.

casters do fast and easy non-challenging content? so what. melee too btw. a class is a tool to build for a goal, often. sure, the development went on to fill hallways with mobs and casters have more aoe, aslo ranged. anyway, the idea that melee can't compete is totally wrong, i see very successful melee also in R10. not by me, i'm not a good player, i'm slow to act and react, i'd be bad at that. there's also individual player skill and preparation and getting used to things. yes, i don't play melee in high reaper because i suck at that. yes i play ranged or caster for that. a limit of mine. gimme a melee in e.g. R1, i can steamroll. but a caster will blast stuff before....in that case, a caster should eventually cc what the melees are charging at, and nuke\instakill something else. if you play r10 no one cares anyway, the best interest is die as less as possible. no one will complain.

conveniently, a lot pf people forget the fact that a sorc, since you are targeting sorc, has a high burst damage but a less sustained one, forgetting that dps means damage per second, no matter the burst, real dps is sustained. obviously, burst damage is very useful and very effective...when it does matter, what if it instakill stuff on low difficulty, where's the problem? it's the nature of the class. it has good uses but also bad uses. good for something and bad at others. it depends. give it to a total new player, can expect to die in korthos wilderness. such a player will be quite ****ed off, after all that reading about OP solo R10 waltzing in and lolling and stuff just die.


also conveniently, some people never take into account how the best players do things, real stress-tests, like, in last order of appearance

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/537761-Lava-Divers-World-First-r10-Skeletons-in-the-Closet?p=6576150#post6576150

please note what the only overpowered godly sorc is doing there, copypasting, Aasi 14sorc/6clr - CC with DI "Solid Fog Build". pure support i guess, a build tailored for a specific goal.

about keeping it real, in this case like others, do you think that such good players, good builders, good guild, with much organization, preparation, build and role tailoring, resources, if attempting such a top achievement, i can't even imagine how they did that, how many tests and how many times they redid evey single build from scratch...do we really want to think that they do not use an army of sorcs in some top tier achievement r10 raid...just because they don't want to use mana pots thus just casually settling for some other sub-par solutions to dps, to complete a once-and-done top tier achievement????

....please, come on...

"but raids are another setting" yeah, where stuff get real if you crank up the difficulty bar, who cares if a fireball can instakill a couple of kobolds as it is supposed to.



(small edit: no way i'm asking those players to join the conversation, or any comment whatsoever. but please, if the reality is really that sorc dps, real dps, is really that high but it's not viable cause for real it would require an absurd godzillion pots, since i admit my limits and really i have no idea how they managed that, please, just let me know i'm talking ****, and i'll shut up. even by pm. i won't pester you, i'll answer thx a lot for teaching me something and that's it. that would be very kind of you. thx.)

[slarden]

That's a load of ****. You know how many waves of lag I got running Anniversary Party just a few score of times? Steelstar's pet seems to apply a debuff that makes even characters with high defenses 400% susceptible to electric or acid damage, and his attacks can do well over 1k damage on level 37.

Sorry, I have run the event on all playstyles, many many builds and many level ranges although most above 15. I never died, never came close to dying and would never never die period.



And the cooldown fo energy burst and ruin is 15 seconds. I would guess that greater ruin is the same (not able to test it at the moment). The sorc is ready to hit another energy burst in that initial post about 3 seconds after any of the challenge star fights are over. I don't know why you are making excuses, but I'd prefer analysis that explains exactly what is happening that increases melee DPS for fights that last longer, when caster DPS seems to be quite high for the entire 15 second cooldown period.

That's the point right. Things still happen while your bursts are on cooldown in difficult content. Since you mentioned warlock, greater ruin (including ruin intensified) + the inevitable dot set off from the greater ruin accounts for slightly over 50% of the damage on my previous warlock build during a 15 second rotation.

My assassin takes down the purple named dragon rare in IOD wilderness in less than half the time of my warlock and that is not even a melee-friendly encounter. Sustainable dps matters. We used to use bruntmash to test sustainable dps, but his hp are too small now to test sustainable dps. I am not sure what is used now, I haven't submitted dps test results to the raiding google sheet since the ED changes as I just haven't been playing much and haven't done any push raids since then.


It could be that vulnerability debuffs and damage buffing increases the melee DPS over the long haul, but from my current understanding of the game, I am not aware of those effects that only benefit physical damage and not elemental or magic. I am not sure if I am allowed to share the debuff guide someone on Sarlona put together, but the starting point of the document was a doc from another server's discord so the info is out there is and heavily used by serious raiding groups and not really a secret thing. I am not even sure if the person that made the guide is playing much - haven't seen him around so I am not even sure if I will get a chance to ask if I can forward it to you.

In terms of filigree prowess is a unique buff that doesn't work with magic and shattered device is a debuff that doesn't apply from magic. I use both on my assassin. Dust is basically the martial equivalent of ash.




All caster DPS is currently sustainable DPS because of the existence of mana pots. That said, I have no doubt that there are R10 raid bosses that outlast even a sizable stack of those, Which is why I would claim that R10 is really just a ploy to keep people shelling out, and doesn't offer anything interesting in the way of new dynamics, just "more" and "bigger" and "longer." I'm not going to join an R10 raid on any character, maxed-out or not, so I guess I don't agree enough to agree to disagree.
The updgraded rings of spell storing add quite a bit of spell points. Pots do not drop enough to be impactful. I don't know anyone that abuses store pots as much as you are saying - seems more like a forum argument than a real problem although SSG would know how much they sell and I am guessing they want to sell more and not less.



We don't agree. If level 37 is as easy as this game gets, then they really should stack about 15 more levels into the dropdrown list. If they did that, I would probably still only run about level 40 or so. That would put it about on par with level 32 quests on legendary elite. That's exactly what I said in previous points, add more crs as the max is too easy for most people.




I appreciate people making arguments, but I think yours needs a little more association with the actual game mechanics and logic in general. lol, alright I guess you had to get a shot in, no worries, but not buying what you are selling at all. It doesn't match my experience.

Obvious things like builds designed for boss dps clear mobs slower than builds designed for aoe just aren't persuasive to me.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

No one is saying that TWF doesnt need help.

Very few would argue that most melee doesn't need help in some way.


But the issue is not the run time through a challenge, which is the strawman argument you created for some reason.


What melee DPS classes need is better passive and active damage mitigation, and a reduction on AOE and single target attack cooldowns.

I also think that the trips, stuns and sunders should work on more mobs, and the DCs needs to be easier to attain.

I also think that Stunning blow, because it is a feat, should work on mobs like reapers.

It does feel like a lot more work to make a melee class work, but its not casters fault.

Even if they reduce the CDs on melee AoE dam to the point you can bumrush a challenge like a sorc, what does that do for you in R10 when the boss cleaves 1 shot you?

you gonna complain that casters should have to stand in melee range too? Or address the root issues?

I have mixed feelings about this. Would it in general improve melee viability if their basic interactive tools worked on more things? Yes. Does it make sense that I cannot trip or sunder a ghost? Yea, unfortunately it does and if that never changes I think I won't complain about it. More reasonable cooldowns and better active defenses I hard agree with. Better passive defenses gets a bit scary. I do feel that the reward for simply wearing heavy armor is quite minimal and the ancillary build choices to support heavy armor uses are kind of overwhelming in general so I would like to see those things improved a bit. But it has to be noted that there was an era where PRR was just the king defense and heavy armor provided so much PRR relative to other armors and the other existing sources of PRR that everybody was wearing heavy armor. I don't think that's a good thing. Also if heavy armor melees are too strong defensively, passively, then they can easily become the most powerful build overall while also being the most braindead.

I think the main issue facing melees right now is not even that class balance is good or bad (my current opinion is that in most of the game it is bad) but that the challenge presented by reaper to different styles of builds is absurdly different. I find that reapers are substantially more punishing for melees because reapers have fortification but cannot be sundered, do a lot of damage, but cannot be CCed by "normal" melee means. I believe reapers are undead outsiders, and are also incorporeal, so it makes sense that they cannot be tripped, sundered, or stunned normally, but in a game setting this provides an unbalanced level of difficulty. For game reasons I think allowing reapers to be stunned makes sense as a band-aid fix but it also takes away from lore/immersion and takes a unique value from monks as a melee away. I think a better solution would be to add more reapers or mechanics in general that make life for casters a bit harder to even the playing field.

[LT218]

Below is a video of probably around the 6th or 7th run I attempted on my TWF melee, which is a Ranger17/Fighter2/Druid1 multiclass build. It is not a particularly good showing on any of the metrics being used to compare, but it was the best run of all the ones I attemped.

https://youtu.be/00eOJsqmHyQ

Note: this character was originally a Ranger18/Fighter2, but I recently evaluated the effect of taking the 18th level of ranger against 1 of Druid and found the latter preferable, especially for this character. The level of Druid adds +1 to will and fort saves (-1 to reflex), gives more spell points, gives first level Druid spells, and provides a wolf companion that could be used in quests to operate switches, etc. The loss of 1 BAB when the character has a typical combined attack bonus in the hundreds didn't seem important, either.
The build is bad in multiple ways and nowhere near optimal for melee DPS. A pure ranger isn't really an optimal DPS build either these days, but even that would have been better. I was doing as much or more DPS on first life sword and board paladin with mostly heroic gear and having less heal/health issues.

Also, it didn't look like you were using many activated attacks. Where are your other hotbars? What attack sequences are you using? I only saw two hotbars and half the buttons on it weren't going on timer. Seems like there are some dps-centric feats/abilities missing from the bars.

At this point, you're comparing an easy-mode pure sorc that can be reasonably effective just spamming a set of 3-4 spells versus a poorly run, sub-optimal melee build while running easy content that heavily favors AoE vs single target DPS. Hardly a fair comparison.

Class balance doesn't seem to be the real issue here. Looks more like the issue is build complexity vs player skill. Easy builds are easier to run well and sorcs are pretty basic.

Almost any mediocre build that's played at a high level of efficiency will beat a good build that's played at 50% of it's potential. Advanced builds require advanced skills and lots of mental focus to run them well.

[gravisrs]

you choosing a warlock to do your party favor farming is actually confirming the assertions I'm making in this thread.


I can build this for every class you want with similar result.


Sorc is easy button for past lives, ok fine. Same as druid, warlock, wizard, arti, cleric, fvs, maybe quarterstaff monk.

But there is no class that is superior in every case. In r10 endgame content you can put your sorc deep in the... corner. Same for R4+ raids.

Looking at your video you are playing with gamepad or pure keyboard, no wonder why you have limited experience playing anything else than sorc that requires fast rate of turning, fine aiming or quick repositioning.

[LT218]

Here's a 10m 34s completion on CR37 by a level 27 melee build.

Considering this is only the 3rd time I've run the anniv quest in 3+ years, I'm sure I could trim that time down to sub-10 minutes with a few more runs.

Other than the sword and board paladin I mentioned previously, this toon is the closest thing I have to a first life level 32 melee DPS.

It does have 2 TRs, but I figure being lvl 27 and thus lacking the T5 destiny stuff and lvl 30+ gear more than balances any benefits of 2 TRs. It is using mostly the heroic sharn gear with one piece of ML5 Feywild and an ML26 weapon.

I didn't use a single heal potion or scroll. No hirelings. All healing came solely from the Mantle of Fury aura. At no point was I in danger of dying.

You can tell by the stats in the screenshot it's not uber. It is by no means an optimized, min/maxed build. This is just a flavor build I was doing on my alt for fun.

Yet, it's apparently good enough to easily complete the CR37 challenge at level 27 with a time matching or beating your lvl 32 sorc.

https://i.imgur.com/Xjdnw7Q.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/efXvMup.jpeg

[cadaverash]

Wondering if sorc's are going to get nerfed again, after this post is read by the dev's...

[Zites]

Here's a 10m 34s completion on CR37 by a level 27 melee build.

Considering this is only the 3rd time I've run the anniv quest in 3+ years, I'm sure I could trim that time down to sub-10 minutes with a few more runs.

Other than the sword and board paladin I mentioned previously, this toon is the closest thing I have to a first life level 32 melee DPS.

It does have 2 TRs, but I figure being lvl 27 and thus lacking the T5 destiny stuff and lvl 30+ gear more than balances any benefits of 2 TRs. It is using mostly the heroic sharn gear with one piece of ML5 Feywild and an ML26 weapon.

I didn't use a single heal potion or scroll. No hirelings. All healing came solely from the Mantle of Fury aura. At no point was I in danger of dying.

You can tell by the stats in the screenshot it's not uber. It is by no means an optimized, min/maxed build. This is just a flavor build I was doing on my alt for fun.

Yet, it's apparently good enough to easily complete the CR37 challenge at level 27 with a time matching or beating your lvl 32 sorc.

https://i.imgur.com/Xjdnw7Q.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/efXvMup.jpeg

Sorry that level of druid means it's not a true melee, get rid of that blue bar m8 LOL.

[Ereshkigal]

Fastest builds are Bard-Barians, swahbuckling not required.
Second fastest are Favored-Fists.
Runner up (pun intended) are Air Sorc with a whip of Barb or a few pinches Bard.

Well, this is probably a departure from the original post, but as we're talking about speed running here...

If you have some racial TR points, getting dragonborn's memories of flight at level 1 is quite nice, and the +3 action boosts fits nicely too.

I tend to splash a barbarian level onto my casters for the +10% base speed, but you're right a bard-barian would be slightly faster in principle.
But just for Heroics. For epics I find the mulitple leaps on different cooldown timers makes that 10% less relevant, and not worth losing the 2 caster levels for spells.

I think Cleric light casters can complete quests more quickly than sorcerers.

It's all about the shape of the AOE spells. Sunburst, Holy Smite, Bane(From Dark Apostate tree), Divine Wrath, and Celestial Bombardment all benefit from a circular - ranged - area of efect - and one that can be cast using enlarge when you're still quite far away. ( I also use soundburst and comet fall situationally -- constructs resist light damage as far as i can tell )

The fact that you can side-cast (most of)these or cast these far in front of you using enlarge, while you're sprinting towards the end, seriously helps you continue sprinting towards the end while casting.

It's true sorcerers have more spellpoints, but they have fewer AOE SLAs. A DA Cleric can cast Bane (admittedly weak but ok for some of the heroic levels) for 4 sp, Holy Smite for 7 sp, Sunburst for 20sp ---- and for the single targets you 'll have searing light for 4sp, and Sunbeam for 8sp. So spellpoint conservation imo makes up for the fewer spellpoints a cleric has.

So really I think that while Sorcerers are capable of more damage, and thus clearly superior in high reapers, if you're wanting to zerg through heroic or even epic levels for reincarnations, I believe a Cleric can do it faster. -- Or maybe it's just less twitchy and more forgiving than a sorcerer and that's why I prefer it. But it's all about the AOE shape and style allowing you to keep on trucking instead of having to worry about getting close enough for your spells to activate or even bother to take any kind of aim...

[LT218]

Sorry that level of druid means it's not a true melee, get rid of that blue bar m8 LOL.
Can't tell if joking or serious. If serious, that's an odd way to define melee.

So a class with 2 melee-centric trees and rage doesn't count as melee just because it has a blue bar? If that's the case, rangers and paladins don't qualify as melee either.

You think I killed every mob during that 10m 30s run with CL1 Produce Flame and 20sp? https://forums.ddo.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.png

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, especially since every point of damage dealt by the toon was via melee attacks. The only spell points used were for buffs.

[slarden]

Can't tell if joking or serious. If serious, that's an odd way to define melee.

So a class with 2 melee-centric trees and rage doesn't count as melee just because it has a blue bar? If that's the case, rangers and paladins don't qualify as melee either.

You think I killed every mob during that 10m 30s run with CL1 Produce Flame and 20sp? :confused:

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, especially since every point of damage dealt by the toon was via melee attacks. The only spell points used were for buffs.

I would think joking, but who knows. I can tell you when people said it was impossible to solo slavers III on a melee several years back I did get the same pushback when I showed a faster completion than the supposed caster benchmark on my monk/fighter melee build because I had 1 level of fvs. Ironically it was my 11th alt with subpar gear, very few past lifes, etc. If it doesn't match people's narrative they will always find a reason to discount it.