U58 Preview 2: Blightcaster [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

View Full Version : U58 Preview 2: Blightcaster

Torc

01-31-2023, 03:22 PM

Brief Summary on changes from preview 1 to 2

This push is mostly a bug fix pass with only a few minor changes to the design. Art is still pending (but should be in for preview 3).

Design Changes: - see details below

Death Eater's stack size has been distributed along the cores (level 6 starts at stack size 3, then it goes to 4 at the level 12 core, 5 at the level 18 core)
Blighted Breath Updated. (no longer an animal form only spell or a dot, but a CC/damage combo.)
Blighted Charge Updated Design (and it works in this build)
Jaws of Doom Updated Design (and it works in this build)
Howl of Winter in Nature's Warrior Updated

Bugs Fixed

Bunch of issues with thorn spells that would've made them not hit their targets
Fixed errors in thorn spell tool tips
Ravenloft bracers now work with new wild shapes
Elemental Body works with new forms (for now)
Splinterbolt will no longer be resisted by DR like a melee hit
melf's acid sla and enveloping swarm sla no longer share a cooldown
murder of crows rebranded around ravens
thorn knights don't breath underwater anymore
meta magics have their antireqs now
removed some cure spells that weren't supposed to be in the book.
Fixed issue with some imbues not working in their correct wildshapes

Blightcaster

New Archtype for Druid

New Tree: Blightcaster
Replaces: Nature's Protector.

Themes: Death, Famine, Decay, Plague, Poison, Insects, Moss, Fungus. Bleached Bones. Scavengers.

Summary:

Thesis statement: Death is a necessary part of life.

A dark take on druid that celebrates the cycle of death & decay. This druid's power still comes from the "cycle" of nature, it just focuses at the end of that cycle.

BASE CLASS PROGRESSION:

LEVEL 1: Disease Immunity - (applies to natural diseases like other immunities)

LEVEL 2: Wild Shape - Plague Wolf (note All wildshapes are using PLACE HOLDER ART in this build)

Basic Wolf Form replaced by Plague Wolf: Transform into a magically diseased wolf.

10% Combat Style bonus to attack speed, a +3 bonus to attack while flanking
+10% enhancement bonus to movement speed.
While in wolf form, you gain access to a number of spells and enhancements that require Wolf form, but the cooldowns on your non-animal form spells are increased to 2.5 times their normal length.

Bonus Feat: Imbue Toggle that only functions when in any animal form, pick 1 of 2.

Biting Acid: 1d6 acid damage with all melee attacks. Scales with spell power. This can only be used in Wolf or Hive forms.
Biting Poison: 1d8 poison damage with all melee attacks. Scales with spell power. This can only be used in Wolf or Hive forms.

LEVEL 4:

Minor Elemental Kin Form Pick (1 of 2)

WildShape - Thorn-Kin:

You create a suit of living thorny wood around your body armoring you from harm. Note: Note this will be gearset over-ride instead of an animal form so the player will fight with their regular weapons. Basically you become a knight in plate mail made of wood and thorns.

+1 bonus to caster level and max caster level of Physical and Poison spells
10% exceptional bonus to armor class and 50% fortification.
You gain access to the thorn imbue.
10% vulnerability to fire damage

WildShape - Hive Keeper:

You give part of yourself to the hive, gaining insect like reflexes and senses. Your bodily fluids become poisonous to others, and the swarm is always close.

+1 bonus to caster level and max caster level of Poison and Acid Spells
You gain 25% concealment and Evasion.
Your reflex saves are increased by 1 for every 3 druid levels.
10% vulnerability to cold. Your diplomacy checks are reduced by 5 (Jeff Goldblum early in The Fly)

BONUS FEAT - Thorn Imbue: Your weapons sprout sharp thorns adding 1d6 piercing damage to all your weapon attacks. Scales with spell power.

LEVEL 5: Venom Immunity

LEVEL 8: Minor Elemental Kin Form Pick (1 of 2) - lets you pick the other form from level 4

LEVEL 11:

Wild Shape - Blighted Wolf

Plague wolf upgrades into Greater Plague Wolf:

you gain a 15% Combat Style bonus to attack speed, +5 bonus to attack while flanking
Grants +1 imbue dice while in this form.
+1 per druid level (max 30%) bonus to movement speed.
If unarmed, your natural attacks do 1d10 damage, do both piercing and slashing damage, and critically hit for triple damage on a roll of 19 or 20.
You are considered a magical beast
Wolf spell access as above.

BONUS FEAT: Imbue Toggle pick the other one from level 2.

LEVEL 13:

You gain access to full Elemental forms

WildShape - Thorn Knight: - (upgrade to thorn kin)

A more advanced version of Thorn Kin where you actually become a plant under the armor.

You are considered a plant for purposes of most immunities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stun, mind effects. You can no longer drown in water.
+3 bonus to caster level and max caster level of Physical and Poison spells
You gain 10% absorption against piercing damage and 5% absorb against blunt damage.
You gain +2 imbue dice
10% exceptional bonus to armor class and 100% fortification.
15% vulnerability to fire damage

WildShape - Hive Master:

You have become one with the swarm. Your body shifts between yourself and a cloud of insects, as you merge in and out of the swarm.

You are considered vermin for the purposes of immunities and are immune to mind effects and knock down.
+3 bonus to caster level and max caster level of Poison and Acid Spells
You are ethereal to monsters while tumbling.
You gain 50% concealment as displacement and Improved Evasion.
You gain +2 Imbue Dice and +1 to Reflex saves for every 2 druid levels (Max 10)
15% vulnerability to cold and -15 on diplomacy checks (Yeah Jeff is just pretty creepy now).

LEVEL 15:

Timeless Body (as druid)

LEVEL 17:

2nd Wildshape Elemental Form Pick (Thorn Knight, HiveMaster)

....

DRUID FEATURES REMOVED FROM SUBCLASS

No Wild Empathy (Or empathy in general...)
No Goodberry
No Wolf Companion
No Bear Form
No Fire or Water Elemental Forms
No Auto Memorized Spells

SPELL BOOK ADJUSTMENTS:

New Spells:

These appear in BOTH base druid and Blightcaster books.

Thorn Strike- Level 1: Conjuration - Cost: 2 Sp, Cooldown 2.0 seconds. You hurl a magical thorn at your target dealing 5 to 7 points of Piercing damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 50 to 70 damage at caster level 10).

Thorn Bloom- Level 3: Conjuration, Cost: 15 SP, Cooldown 3.5. Point Blank AOE - Thorns blast out from your body inflicting 5 to 10 points of Piercing damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 50 to 100 damage at caster level 10) to all nearby foes. Reflex save for half.

Plant Growth- Level 4: copy of Animal Growth for Plants (Not in this build)

Thorn Wave- Level 6: Conjuration, Cost: 25 SP, Cooldown 4.5. Cone - You hurl a wave of magical thorns in front of you dealing to all targets in front of you for 6 to 11 points of Piercing damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 90 to 165 damage at caster level 15). Reflex save for half.

Grasping Roots- Level 6: Conjuration, Cost: 30 SP, Cooldown 20 seconds. Duration 10 seconds. Powerful thorny vines rip out of the ground seizing all enemies in the area. Enemies save vs Reflex or become entangled, with a re-occuring Strength save to break free. Targets also take 1d6 in piercing damage every 2 seconds. All enemy movement through the area is slowed by 30%, no save. Area of effect fire spells will destroy these vines and free any entangled creatures. Incorporeal creatures and oozes are naturally immune. Fire elementals and other fire creatures are immune because they burn through the plants.

Thorn Lance-Level 8- Conjuration, Cost: 20 SP, Cooldown 5.5. Bolt - You hurl a great thorn lance at your target dealing 9 to 14 points of Piercing damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 180 to 280 damage at caster level 20). The lance will damage all enemies in front or behind the target.

Blight Caster Only Spells:

Blighted Breath - Sends out a breath of poisonous gas in a frontal cone dealing 1d8+2 points of Poison damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 45 to 150 damage at caster level 15) with a Reflex save for half damage. They must also make a Fortitude save or be Blinded for 10 seconds. If you are using the Biting Acid Imbue this damage is converted into 1d6+2 Acid damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 45 to 120 damage at caster level 15).

New Animal Spells: - Blight Caster Only

Blighted Charge- Requires Any Wolf - Cost: 25 sp Cooldown: 15. You leap forward with the speed and ferocity spewing blight around you as you pass. You attack enemies in your path, dealing an extra 5(W), with a +1 bonus to critical threat & multiplier, and targets caught in your wake are Blinded and Helpless for 8 seconds. A successful reflex save negates this effect. For 10 seconds after the charge you gain +3 Imbue Dice. Stun vs Reflex DC: 10 + Druid Level + Highest of Wisdom, Dexterity or Strength + Necromancy Bonuses."

Jaws of Doom- Any Wolf - Cost: 20 Cooldown: 30 seconds. As your jaws close over your enemies, they feel their life end. This attack deals an extra 10(W), +1 bonus to critical threat and multiplier, and your foe must save vs Fortitude or dies as if slayed by a vorpal weapon (Does not affect Oozes, Undead, Constructs or Elementals). Death vs Fortitude DC: 10 + Druid Level + Highest of Wisdom, Dexterity or Strength + Necromancy Bonuses.

Blighted Bite- Valid Forms: School: Evocation Cost: 10 sp. Any Plague Wolf. You gain +2 Imbue dice while in any wolf form for 20 minutes.

Revamped Spells: - applies to all class versions of these spells.

Contagion - focused down to 3 versions instead of 7.

Blinding Sickness: Target goes blind and they take 1d4 ability damage to strength and dexterity
Cackling Fever - Target is stunned for 6 seconds and takes 1d4 ability damage to wisdom and intelligence
Slimy Doom - Target takes 4d6 acid damage +1 per caster level every 3 seconds

Melf's Acid Arrow - Now does 1d6 acid damage per caster level (Max caster level 10 for 10d6). Applies damage and ticks twice again over 4 seconds (Damage occurs 3 times in total)

Black Dragon Bolt - is being updated to do 1d10 acid damage per caster level (Max caster level 25, caps at 25 to 250 damage). Applies damage and ticks twice again over 4 seconds (Damage occurs 3 times in total)

Spells Added to the Druid spell book for Blightcaster

1st level - Night Shield, Thorn Strike, Chill Touch, Acid Spray

2nd level - Gets Contagion at level 2 instead of 3, Melf's Acid Arrow, Web

3rd level - Acid Blast, Thorn Bloom, Stinking Cloud

4th level - Fear, Acid Rain, Plant Growth, Wave of Fatigue

5th level - Negative Energy Burst, Blighted Breath, Cloud Kill

6th level - Negative energy ray, Jaws of Doom, Blighted Bite, Thorn Wave

7th Level - Acid Fog, Wave of Exhaustion, Horrid Wilting

8th level - Black Dragon Bolt, Thorn Lance

9th level - Acid Well, Wail of the Banshee, Rend the Soul, Blighted Charge

Spells Removed from Druid Book for Blightcaster

No Animal Summons
No Basic Cure Wound Spells or the Heal Spell (you keep Vigor but get them 1 level later, no mass regeneration)
No Fire Spells
No Sun Spells
No Fire Shield
No Bear Spells
No Elemental Fire/Water Elemental Form Spells

Skills: as Druid

Past Life

Blightcaster:

Past Life: x3 (stacks)

+5 Acid and Poison Spell Power

BLIGHT CASTER TREE:

Core 1:

The Cycle of Decay - You gain 5 Force, Poison, Negative, and Acid Spell Power per core in this tree.

Core 3:

Spread the Blight - Your offensive spells now apply a 10 second debuff called Blight: reduces saves by 1 and incoming positive healing by 20%.

Core 6:

Death Eater - You gain 1 temporary hit point equal to your wisdom score whenever you kill an enemy (Creatures 2 levels below you do not count). These hit points remain until damage removes them or the quest ends. This can stack 5 times and is refreshed on each kill.

Core 12:

Know the End - You gain Know the End which acts as a permanent Death Block. Blight effect is improved to reduces saves by 2 and incoming positive healing by 40% for 10 seconds.

Core 18:

Vile Eruption - Earth Quake now deals 2d6 + 1 per caster level in acid damage every 3 seconds in addition to it's regular effects.

Core 20:

Master of Decay:

+2 Wisdom & Con
SLA Creeping Doom Cost: 20 spell points Cooldown: 15 seconds
Blight now reduces saves by 4 and positive healing by 60%

TIER 1:

Prickly: 1/2/3 PRR, rank 3: +1 to damage with weapon attacks.

Kiss of the Blight: You gain 5/10/15% Absorption against Poison and Acid Damage.

Pick Your Poison I Multi Selector

SLA: Thorn Strike 3 ranks, cooldown 7/5/3 Spell Cost 3,2,1
SLA Acid Spray 3 ranks Cooldown 12/8/4 seconds , 4/3/2 SP cost

Sharp Edges 1: Spell Crit +1 to Force/Neg/Poison/Acid Spell Crit Chance. (costs 1 AP, instead of the usual 2)

Lore of the Great Plagues: You gain a +1/2/3 saving throw bonus against poison and disease. Rank 3: Gain 5 Poison and Negative Spell Power.

TIER 2:

Defiled Growth - Your Entangle and Spike growth spells now cause 1d4 negative energy damage per spell level every 2 seconds.

Meta Selector, Empower, Max, Quicken

Pick your Poison II Mutli Selector

SLA Splinter Bolt 3 ranks, Cooldown 8/6/4, Spell Cost, 6,4,2

SLA Melf's Acid Arrow 3 ranks, Cooldown 8/6/4, Spell Cost, 6,4,2

Sharp Edges II: Spell Crit +1 to Force/Neg/Poison/Acid Spell Crit Chance. (costs 1 AP, instead of the usual 2)

Every Rose Has it's Thorn - Spike Growth damage is increased by 100%.

TIER 3:

Out Break - upgrades the contagion and insidious spores spells to also hit enemies near the primary target.

Meta Selector - Empower, Max, Quicken

SLA Enveloping Swarm - 3 ranks, Cooldown 16,12,8, Cost 8,6,4

Sharp Edges III: Spell Crit +1 to Force/Neg/Poison/Acid Spell Crit Chance. (costs 1 AP, instead of the usual 2)

Stat Boost - Wis/Con

TIER 4:

Fast Acting Poison - The Poison spell now does 1d6 per druid level poison damage every 3 seconds for 15 seconds in addition to its original effect. A successful Fort save applies this dot at half strength.

Unkindness of Ravens - 120/90/60 second cool down, A swarm of ravens blasts through you and a narrow path ahead. Enemies in the way take 1d3 piercing damage per druid level and must save vs confusing and blind separately DC: 20+ druid level + Conjuration DC. If you have a raven summon active from the falconry tree when you used this ability you gain the More Unkindness to Come effect for 10 seconds; All your spells and attacks apply 1d6 piercing damage to blind targets for every druid level. This damage can only apply once every two seconds.

Pick your Poison III Multi Selector

SLA Thorn Bloom - 3 ranks, Cooldown 16, 12, 8, Cost: 20,15, 10

SLA Acid Rain - 10 SP cost, Cooldown 20/16/12 seconds

Sharp Edges IV: Spell Crit +1 to Force/Neg/Poison/Acid Spell Crit Chance. (costs 1 AP, instead of the usual 2)

Stat Boost, Wis/Con

Tier 5:

Thorns in your side - Multi Selector -

Poisoned Thorns - Your Splinter Bolt and Thorn Spells now also cause additional 2 points of Poison damage for every spell level. This scales with spell power.

Vile Thorns - Your Splinter Bolt and Thorn Spells now also cause additional 1 point of Acid damage for every spell level. This scales with spell power.

SLA Grasping Thorns - Spell Like Ability: Powerful thorny vines rip out of the ground seizing all enemies in the area. Enemies save vs Reflex or become entangled, with a re-occuring Strength save to break free. Targets also take 1d6 in piercing damage every 2 seconds. All enemy movement through the area is slowed by 30%, no save. Area of effect fire spells will destroy these vines and free any entangled creatures. Incorporeal creatures and oozes are naturally immune. Fire elementals and other fire creatures are immune because they burn through the plants.

Everything Decays - Gain 5/10/15 Acid & Poison Spell Power Rank 3: Your spells remove Acid and Poison Immunity for 30 seconds.

Doomsayer - Gain a +1 Bonus to Conjuration, Evocation and Necromancy DCs

ADDITIONAL CHANGES....

Changes to Seasons Herald

Core 3 (level 6) updated to : +1 to max caster level of your season. Your Shillelagh does one extra W of damage. Your plant spells like entangle, spike growth and grasping thorns will no longer be dispelled by fire effects.

Changes to Nature's Warrior: -

Howl of Winter renamed and changed to Howl of the Hunter: Casting Howl of Terror now grants you the effect Howl of the Hunter for 10 seconds which grants a +10 exceptional bonus to Double Strike, 5% bonus to spell crit and 15% to spell crit damage to all spells. This will only occur once every 30 seconds. Passive: You gain a +5% primal bonus to Max Hit Points

Great White Wolf Gets a multi selector with the alternate called Bad Wolf - 10/20/30 acid spell power, 10/20/30% Acid Resistance

Jaws of Winter get's renamed "Feasting Jaws" - Gain 10 times your character level in temporary HPs for 30 seconds after using Jaws of Winter or Jaws of Doom

Cold Breath damage will be updated to match current spell damage formulas

Notes on things coming down the line:

Will be adding a Flame Blade equivalent to the Blightcaster (scimitars yes but probably also a staff, it didn't quite make it in this build).
Elemental Body was fixed to work with the new forms is probably gonna get replaced by a new spell or enhancement in Blightcaster (We've thinking Thorn and Hive are not going to be considered elementals but they are wildshapes so elemental bonuses will not apply to them but wildshape bonuses will for things like gear and feats will)
We are looking at making the wolf forms traits, or at least Blighted wolf a bit more distinctive from their standard druid counterparts.
An additional Thorn Kin perks or two in the works through enhancements or spells

KNOW ISSUES

NO ART IS IN YET (it's all place holder on the wildshapes. Only a few spells have a basic vfx pass)
Contagion still has some issues where it's not doing multiple stat damage types on two of it's types.
Nature's Warrior T4 Great White Wolf doesn't have it's Blight Wolf option in yet
Immunities on Hivemaster aren't in yet
Blight debuff sometimes applies to the player for things like entangle
Haven't updated standard druid Cold Breath yet.
Plant Growth not done yet

Zeklijan

01-31-2023, 03:32 PM

Currently, druid elemental forms and their imbues drop on death. You also have to enable both separately. This is true for both the Blight and Base Druids.

Since some spells and effects will have different functionalities depending on which imbue you have enabled, it would be a really nice QoL of these imbues and forms were not removed on death.

newmart

01-31-2023, 03:36 PM

I asked for a debilitator plague spreader!!!

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/536348-Dark-Apostate-and-diseases?p=6561086#post6561086

Zeklijan

01-31-2023, 03:41 PM

Pretty_Good_Old_One

01-31-2023, 03:47 PM

I like the change to blighted breath. I think it'll make a very good spell to cast alongside Acid Well.

I wonder though, why is the damage lower than the other level 5 spells? 1d6+2/CL instead of 1d6+5/CL like the others, such as lightning ball and cone of cold.

I’d guess that it is because of the added functionality: 10s of blind and choice between 2 damage types, 1 at 1d8+2/CL

Zeklijan

01-31-2023, 04:01 PM

I’d guess that it is because of the added functionality: 10s of blind and choice between 2 damage types, 1 at 1d8+2/CL

That is true, however other spells such as cometfall and tsunami do not have lower damage despite having a CC component as well.

The formula the devs seem to have adopted with the spell pass for most instant damage spells is 1d6+level of the spell/Caster level. So most 5th level spells are 1d6+5, and 6th levels 1d6+6, etc.

I wonder why this spell detracts from that formula with 1d6+2/1d8+2 instead of 1d6+5.

For reference, 1d8+2 is also lower damage than 1d6+5. Per dice you get:
1d8+2 - minimum 3 maximum 10, average 6.5
1d6+5 - minimum 6 maximum 11, average 8.5

droid327

01-31-2023, 04:06 PM

You gain 50% concealment as displacement

Does that mean its negated by True Sight enemies?

This would seem to be a case where the concealment is not magical or illusory, but you're actually being obscured by the cloud of bugs around you - so it should work more like the Cloud conceal effects that arent negatable. Maybe that means it has to become "when you hit or are hit by enemies, they suffer 50% concealment chance as blinded" instead, but that'd make it far more universally useful...both against True Sight enemies, and in higher Reaper where a 50% concealment "buff" would get reduced to 20% (but not the "debuff" version)

Scrag

01-31-2023, 04:14 PM

Can we get the changes blue'd like DH? I am having trouble seeing what actually was changed.

Thank you!

Xezom

01-31-2023, 04:25 PM

Wise choice to spread out the death Eater point along the core. It feels more progressive that way. Still strong at level 6 but not obscene. Getting ready to start my testing again, I will update this post as I get going.

An oops I've noticed already. Casting Buff Spells/Vigor line on yourself or allies applies your Spread the Blight Healing debuff when it's supposed to only be your offensive spells that trigger it.

One Hour Feedback:

Thorn Spells are WAY WAY WAY better! Thank you! The targeting and tracking are miles better and seem to be functioning properly.

Thorn Spells are properly triggering the Primal Avatar mantle now, so also bravo. (I still think Darconic Poison Dragon is better, but thorn PA works well too now).

I personally like that Death Eater Scales up with level. Feels more appropriate in power.

Fixes Needed: (Apart from the one's already listed in the known issues list)

Blight is applying on all Buffs. Even when you use Shard Storm in Epics. Shouldn't be applying to your self.

The only issue I noticed with thorn spells was that if you use Quicken on Thorn Bloom, it always misses.

**Edit 2: After further testing, the Poison strip is not working. Tested on Water elemental in Isle of dread Legendary Elite. Thorn strike with added poison damage from Poison thorns shows immune on elementals even after being hit with another spell. Poison DoT from Draconic also fails to bypass. So immunity strip still needs fixed.

That's really all the feedback I have. I think this is a great tree and with the pass on the thorn spells feels way better to play. Slap some polish on it and it's ready to ship imo. I'd play it tomorrow if it was released live even as is. Excellent work on this one. Excited to get it live and make it my new main.

Abilbo

01-31-2023, 06:08 PM

Neither the feat nor the ability granted by way of Draconic.

Xezom

01-31-2023, 09:41 PM

I've run the iterations of the Blightcaster that appeal to me: DoT-Hive Master and Thorn Knight using both level 7 starts and an ungeared level 32 reincarnation Druid. I've tested everything that I can think to test, although I'm sure there is more, so this will be my final thoughts on the Archtype for this iteration on Lamannia.

Positive Changes since Preview 1:

-The thorn spells are miles better and actually function properly. A lot have no saves making them very cheap and reliable damage even without much DC speccing. I personally like that, and they feel good to use.
-Progression with Death Eater in the cores. Death Eater at level 6 was obscene in the first preview. It feels more appropriate to scale up with the cores as you go, and gives more incentive to go further up the cores and dis-incentivizes Blightcaster splash to just get Death Eater.
-Primal Avatar Thorn mantle now properly triggers on Thorn spell hits. Opens up that option to use on top of the potential for Draconic.

Bugs that still need squashed:

-Poison immunity stripping from the Everything Decays point does not work. Needs to be adjusted as it heavily gimps the poison options both DoT wise and Thorn Caster (since their spell level benefits apply to physical and poison)
-Spread the Blight and it's progressions apply to friendly targets and self when casting buffs. Definitely needs to be fixed as applying a 60% healing penalty to your teammates or self is REALLY bad. I know Blightcasters like death, but lets not make it our party's.
-Thorn Bloom when using quicken, always misses. Obviously this can be worked around by not using quicken, but it definitely shouldn't have to be that way.

In regards to things coming down the line:

-It's noted that there is a perk or two for the thorn kin coming either in enhancements or spells. I'm curious what the idea is behind it. From my testing thorn casters are pretty good. I will grant you that they don't feel very "Thorn Knight"-ish, but if you are taking them as a caster, they're really not that bad. Personally, I really enjoy the play of them. Low SP cost, Low CD SLAs, reliable damage via few saves needed, durable with the Death Eater points. I don't really feel like the AC boost is all that impactful unless we can get some good caster Heavy Armor that is made of wood to not break Druidic Oath, so you're not really much of a tank/knight as you are a physical caster. Even Stacking things like Barkskin with it doesn't really make you very tanky. Personally, I don't mind that since it is still, at it's core, a caster tree. I wish I could give some better feedback as to what the perks coming could or should look like, but I like it how it is. All I would ask is that whatever the perk is, that it not be a double edged sword or poach from another unique playstyle (ie. Old Knights transformation where spells became touch range). I use Knight's transformaiton because it specifically says Knight and the Thorn kin becomes a Thorn Knight. Please don't do that, that'd create some pretty prickly feels.

Preview 2 ratings for the two builds I tried:

Thorn Caster
Theme: 9/10
Unique Playstyle: 5/10 (pretty standard cast and run, see what happens with the thorn Kin Perks come around later)
Durability/Solo-ability: 9/10
Party Friendly: 8/10
Functionality: 9/10 (greatly improved, only thing keeping it from a 10 is the immunity strip and quicken on thorn bloom issues noted above)
Look/Aesthetic: 3/10 (I know that the FX's are not finished, so this is once that I know will improve. As is it's very bland looking)
Epic Destiny Synergy: 9/10 (Works decently well with Primal Avatar, Draconic Incarnation, and even magus depending what DC you stack up and spell power you focus.)
Late Game Gearing: 8/10 (Surprisingly there is a good amount of gear that works well for physical/poison casters. Morgrave Staves are great)

DoT Caster
Theme: 9/10
Unique Playstyle: 8/10 (Very very active on keeping DoTs going on bosses. A bit of a tag along in the clear speed but to be expected)
Durability/Solo-ability: 7/10 (surprisingly not as bad as you'd think for a DoT character. Death Eater and displacement are a strgon combo. Easy leveling, but not the fastest thing in the world thanks to the nature of DoTs)
Party Friendly: Both 9/10 and 3/10. (9/10 on bosses for the DoT power that rips through their HP pools safely and consistently, 3/10 for the clear speed and because you cause A LOT of screen noise. When I say a lot, I mean A LOOOOOOOT. Acid Rain, Storm of Vengeance, Earthquake, Grasping Vines, Web, Spike Growth, etc.).
Functionality: 9/10 (fix the immunity strip and we'll be in good shape here, otherwise most everything else functions great with the DoTs)
Look/Aesthetic: 3/10 (I know that the FX's are not finished, so this is once that i know will improve. As is it's very bland looking)
Epic Destiny Synergy: 9/10 (Works decently well with Primal Avatar or Draconic Incarnation. I took Draconic for the poison/Acid DoT from the Mantle to add more DoT power, worked amazing)
Late Game Gearing: 8/10 (Still a good amount of gear for DoT since its basically just regular caster gear. Conjuration and negative/poison spell power is an odd mix tho, so it's easier to focus more on Acid.)

That's all I've got, I'll be hanging around the thread to see what others think and contribute, but for feedback this is all I can think of. Well done guys! I thoroughly enjoyed testing this one on lamannia and look forward to it's polished and finished look on live.

Ultinoob

02-01-2023, 07:52 AM

I tried to lesser reincarnate a druid 17 monk 2 wizard 1 i copied from live servers into a blightcaster and could not do it.

When taking the monk levels my crossclass skills was the same as for the druid. so somehow it did not see me as monk with regards to skills but druid.

When i tried taking the wizard level i had to select 5 spells. only one spell was selectable and that was fire shield. That is kind of odd as i was only level 1 wizard and it was a higher level spell.

When i selected the spell and could press finish with that level it gave me a bug and i was not able to take that level.

Please fix this before live.

Arkat

02-01-2023, 11:22 AM

Can we get the changes blue'd like DH? I am having trouble seeing what actually was changed.

Thank you!

Ditto.

neain2008

02-01-2023, 12:15 PM

Can we get the changes blue'd like DH? I am having trouble seeing what actually was changed.

Thank you!

I will also get behind this, I can't tell if I found everything that changed or if I'm missing something that looks minor/unchanged but can end up being significant.

I can tell that I'm looking forward to the archetype for my favorite class though. Thanks for the content and keep up the good work!

Lotoc

02-01-2023, 01:15 PM

An additional Thorn Kin perks or two in the works through enhancements or spells

Personally would love to see some tanky multiselectors in tree for it, the shape bonuses kind of imply tank but there's a kind of lacking support for playing in such a way.

Xezom

02-01-2023, 04:09 PM

It's been asked so I compiled a list of changes made since preview one according to Patch note differences and in game references. I think I got them all, but if I missed one, feel free to add it or let me know and i'll add it for cleanliness.

• Death Eater's stack size has been distributed along the cores (level 6 starts at stack size 3, then it goes to 4 at the level 12 core, 5 at the level 18 core)
• Thorn Strike increased from 1d6+2 up to 1d3+4
• Thorn Wave reduced from 1d6+6 down to 1d6+5
• Thorn Wave Max caster level reduced from 20 to 15
• Grasping Vines no longer does double damage against entangled enemies
• Grasping Vines base damage increased from 1d4 to 1d6
• Grasping Vines Slow reduced from 35% to 30%
• Murder of Crows Changed names to Unkindness of ravens (same effects)
• +2 Imbue dice removed from Thorn Knight (there in the patch notes, not in game)

• Blighted Charge Changes:
o Increased from 2(w) to 5(w), added crit threat and multiplier.
o Added Helplessness to Blighted Charge
o Added 3 Imbue dice for 10 seconds after use.

• Jaws of Doom Changes:
o Increased from 6(w) to 10(w)
o No longer a sneak attack or stuns. Now has a death check that functions on target vulnerable to vorpal

• Blighted Breath Changes: (Works in all forms not just wolf)
o Sends out a breath of poisonous gas in a frontal cone dealing 1d8+2 points of Poison damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 45 to 150 damage at caster level 15) with a Reflex save for half damage. They must also make a Fortitude save or be Blinded for 10 seconds. If you are using the Biting Acid Imbue this damage is converted into 1d6+2 Acid damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 45 to 120 damage at caster level 15).

• Howl of Winter changed to Howl of the Hunter:
o Casting Howl of Terror now grants you the effect Howl of the Hunter for 10 seconds which grants a +10 exceptional bonus to Double Strike, 5% bonus to spell crit and 15% to spell crit damage to all spells. This will only occur once every 30 seconds. Passive: You gain a +5% primal bonus to Max Hit

Edit/Bug: While doing this I noticed a few inconsistencies:

Thorn Strike: The spell book version lists: 5-7 per caster level (1d3+4), but the SLA version lists 2-7 (1d6+1)
Grasping Vines: The Spell book version lists 1d6 in damage, and a 30% slow, with no doubling. The SLA version lists 1d4 in damage, 35% slow, and still says it's doubled on entangle.

The patch notes seem to support the spell book version of these spells not the SLA's. Guessing the SLA tool-tips just need to be updated and fixed for the adjustments.

Torc

02-01-2023, 04:25 PM

Arkat

02-01-2023, 04:26 PM

• Murder of Crows Changed names to Unkindness of Ravens (same effects)

I was wondering whether they'd get that right.

They did.

Scrag

02-01-2023, 06:45 PM

splash 2 ES sorc for +2 caster level to earth/acid spells, double boost to 18 core earthquake?

Xezom

02-01-2023, 06:49 PM

Sorry for littering this thread with posts but found another bug/weird interaction.

I was doing some more testing and figured out what is going on with the immunity stripping. The Immunity strip is working on your natural spells (creeping doom, insidious spores, contagion, Enveloping swarm, all the spells you naturally get as a druid.) It does NOT work on any of the new Thorn spells. So the issue is actually that the stripping immunities is not working on the thorn spells, not just in general.

Secondly, the immunity stripping lasts for 10 seconds not the 30 seconds that is listed in the tooltip and patch notes when it does get applied from one of your "natural" druid spells.

plant_power

02-01-2023, 06:57 PM

We have repro'd this internally and think we know where the problem is.

-T

I actually ran into something similar lessering a multiclassed dark apostate on live. I was rogue/dark apostate/wizard shadar kai with 8 int, and I noticed that once I started taking dark apostate levels, I was only getting 1 skill point per level on subsequent rogue and wizard levels. I also couldn't select any wizard spells while leveling up to inscribe.

Strimtom

02-01-2023, 07:00 PM

Here are some bugs I found:

(BUG) Blight debuff applies when casting spells on yourself or friends, which is a bug
(BUG) Blighted Breath does 0 damage
(BUG) Spike growth does not appear to be effect by child of summer or Thorn kin, when it is both a thorn and a force spell.
(BUG) Thornbloom doesn't fully cast when you use quicken, making it do nothing if quickened

Zeklijan

02-01-2023, 07:15 PM

(BUG) Blighted Breath does 0 damage

I've encountered this bug when I first logged in, and when I turned on an imbue it now applies damage. Since then, I've been unable to replicate any condition that would make it stop doing damage anymore. It seems to be a one time thing?

Atremus

02-01-2023, 07:32 PM

WildShape - Hive Master:

You have become one with the swarm. Your body shifts between yourself and a cloud of insects, as you merge in and out of the swarm.

You are considered vermin for the purposes of immunities and are immune to mind effects and knock down.
+3 bonus to caster level and max caster level of Poison and Acid Spells
You are ethereal to monsters while tumbling.
You gain 50% concealment as displacement and Improved Evasion.
You gain +2 Imbue Dice and +1 to Reflex saves for every 2 druid levels (Max 10)
15% vulnerability to cold and -15 on diplomacy checks (Yeah Jeff is just pretty creepy now).

Was knocked over in Grim & Barret end fight. Not sure if knock down immunity works or knock over immunity is bypassed just because the monsters are plants. Rerunning to see if it happens again.

Melf's Acid Arrow - Now does 1d6 acid damage per caster level (Max caster level 10 for 10d6). Applies damage and ticks twice again over 4 seconds (Damage occurs 3 times in total)

Black Dragon Bolt - is being updated to do 1d10 acid damage per caster level (Max caster level 25, caps at 25 to 250 damage). Applies damage and ticks twice again over 4 seconds (Damage occurs 3 times in total)

Both of these still feel underwhelming even with Master of Earth boosting Melf Arrow.

Skyael

02-01-2023, 07:55 PM

Xezom

02-01-2023, 08:55 PM

Blighted Breath's damage is underwhelming, 1d6+2/CL is too low damage for a 5th level spell.

Also, most of the new spells use irregular formulas. Allow me to explain what I mean. When the spell pass happened, the general formula for most spells seemed to be 1d6 + 1 per level of the spell / caster level. For example, a first level spell would deal 1d6+1/CL and a 4th level spell 1d6+4/CL. Most spells scale up to maximum CL 10 for 3rd levels and under, most 4th-5th levels scale to 15 CL max, 6th-7th up to 20 CL, and 8+ 25 CL or higher. I imagine this was the design for consistency between different casters, but I could be wrong.

Now let's look at the new spells.
1st level: Thorn Strike - 1d6+1/CL max 10. This is exactly the expected numbers with the above.
2nd level: Splinterbolt - 1d6+4/CL max 10. The expected numbers would be 1d6+2/CL
3rd level: Thorn Bloom - 1d6+4/CL max 10. The expect numbers would be 1d6+3/CL (The same as fireball and Acid Blast)
5th level: Blighted Breath 1d6+2/CL or 1d8+2/CL max 15. The expected numbers would be 1d6+5/CL (Like Cometfall or Lightning Ball)
6th Level: Thorn Wave 1d6+5/CL max 15. Expected numbers would be 1d6+6 max 20 (Like chain lightning and Ottilukes sphere)
8th level: Thorn Lance 1d6+8/CL max 20. The dice here is correct, but the expected CL would be 25 (like polar ray)

Now, those are all design choices, and if the devs decided those were appropriate numbers for the spell and intentionally differed from other comparable spells... then there is not much I can add here. It is entirely in their right to do so. However, wether they decide to keep the current values as they are or not, one thing is clear to me.

1d6+2/CL for blighted breath is low damage for a 5th level spell.

They're even more irregular than even this post suggests.

Thorn Strike is actually 1d3+4 not 1d6+1. The SLA is wrong in it's numbers. The spell book version is correct (5-7 range).
Splinterbolt still has its mini-hit on it (no idea where the extra damage is coming from but it does). Giving it more damage than it's higher than average damage number would even suggest.
Grasping Thorns is WAY off if you look at spells by level 1d6 for a level 6 spell is way low, but given it's capacity as a hard CC and damage spell it's understandable. It also matches Blade Barrier, another physical area persistent effect, so not sure.
My thought on Thorn Bloom being a little higher than average is because it's a short range cone spell, so it's less spammy in most circumstances due to it's short range.

Blighted Breath is definitely a strange one since it's average damage even with the riskier poison version is about 25% less than you'd expect from a level 5 spell, using standard progression (6.5 vs 8.5 standard). I think the idea was that since poison is a riskier choice to use, due to many things having immunity to it, it should be stronger than the fairly safe acid damage which is about 35% lower than standard (5.5 average vs 8.5).

Although correct me if I'm wrong but cometfall is a level 6 spell and is 1d6+3 is it not (at least on FVS I know it is)? Making it's progression even with Blighted Breath Poison form and it's one spell level higher.

I do agree that it could use a bump up. To say that the numbers in this archetype are atypical is a bit of an understatement, though they did tell us when archtypes started part of the reason for doing them was to be able to do some funky things. Number progression must be one of them. When effects start getting added to spells (blind from Blighted Breath, knocked down from Comet Fall) it starts getting messy as it then becomes a matter of determining how much damage that form of CC is worth. I personally like atypical progressions. It keeps things from feeling like just a reskinned version of every other spell out there.

Zeklijan

02-01-2023, 09:31 PM

I've found a few bugs that are new from this preview, some of which were in the last. Many were fixed, so that's pretty good to see :)

Here's what's broken in this preview:

Spell Bugs
Greater Vigor is missing from the level 6 spells
Black Dragon Bolt (8th level spell) only deals it’s damage 2 times instead of 3
The new thorn spells are not affected by Draconic Incarnation Core 3's Eschew Material. (It will still consume material)
The new thorn spells are not affected by the bonus to caster level from season herald's Child of Summer
New thorn spells missing their DnD Dice in descriptions
Thorn Bloom does not deal damage with Quicken Enabled

Blighted Breath does not benefit from Bonus to caster level from Hive/Thorn Forms (Both Poison and Acid versions of the spell)
Blighted Breath does not have a listed spell school
Blighted Breath DC does not benefit from +Spell focus Mastery items

Enhancement Bugs
Everything Decays only lasts 10s instead of 30s
Vile Eruption (Core 5 from Blight tree) does not apply its’ damage reliably. It sometimes “Skips” applying damage every few 3s ticks
Elemental Forms Legendary Feat is not applied to hive/thorn elementals

Wild Shape Bugs
Hive Master elementals are not immune to Burning Blood (Intended or not?)
Hive Master does not provide bonuses to Acid caster level (it does for poison)

Xezom

02-01-2023, 09:40 PM

Everything Decays only lasts 10s instead of 30s

It also does not work on the new Thorn Spells, at least the SLA's. I'll have to double check if they do on the spell book version.

Hive Master elementals are not immune to Burning Blood (Intended or not?)

This one I think is intentional. Hive master's are Vermin NOT elemental. Most vermin do actually have blood. It was stated in the OP that these new forms are not to be seen as elementals but as wildshapes, which is why the elemental spells are getting removed and replaced (supposedly), and boosts for elementals will not work on them but gear for wildshapes will.

Elemental Body was fixed to work with the new forms is probably gonna get replaced by a new spell or enhancement in Blightcaster (We've thinking Thorn and Hive are not going to be considered elementals but they are wildshapes so elemental bonuses will not apply to them but wildshape bonuses will for things like gear and feats will)

The in game feat should reflect this better. The feat Should just read like this in game:

Plant Form: You become a full Thorn Knight. You are considered a plant for purposes of most immunities, poison, sleep, paralysis, stun, mind effects. You can no longer drown in water.

Gain +3 bonus to caster level and max caster level of all Physical and Poison spells
10% absorption against piercing damage and 5% absorb against blunt damage.
10% exceptional bonus to armor class and 100% fortification.
But you are 15% vulnerability to fire damage.

This is a wild shape only for the purposes of gear and feats. Elemental benefits do not apply to you while in this form.

The same with Hive Master. That was it is very clear what does and does not apply and what the forms are and are not.

ned_ellis

02-02-2023, 09:29 AM

A few not very detailed points having tried a lvl30 / 20 blight hive caster :
- Targeting of new spells is better but not yet fully functional; especially the two that blast from your body rarely hit
- Some cool new effects
- Spell damage scaling is indeed odd as others have said
- The hp shield from killing mobs is underwhelming (specially as dot's rarely kill before your teammates!)
- The two forms are not sufficiently differentiated; please further develop the differences
- Seasons herald tree has virtually no synergy sadly; it’s a caster druid with only one tree available (again!)
- The murder of ravens ability is underwhelming considering it involves (a very cool!) synergy with falconry

In general, as a dot caster this build has some inherant limits : mostly conjuration, it’s heavy hitter new spells are acid and negative (necromancy). Anything evocation falls by the side…plus there is virtually no DC support. The problem with this is the cc is limited since it grabs plenty aggro (multiple hit/shard spells that hit multiple targets for low dmg and aoe and dot’s that do dmg but over time – considering even your healing is delayed, incoming dmg is incredibly erratic compared to other casters.

Compared to my live build (fire ele) I lose the ability to play as secondary healer to gain…some really cool spells that are really hard to make the most of ?
I’ll try again with some tweaks later and see if I can come up with some ideas but if the ‘displacement’ from hive master is excluded from reaper like the spell, defensively (and the possibility of acting as a healer) an elemental version wins hands down what is otherwise a really cool archetype.

Other things : great tweak to spiprtit blade feat!! As others said, pleaasepleaseplease make the art cool (no barkskin/bee swarm and call it a day please!)

Ultinoob

02-02-2023, 12:34 PM

Skyael

02-02-2023, 02:21 PM

Ultinoob

02-02-2023, 02:36 PM

Good catch.

The same can be said about enhancements that boost the pet wolf, despite not having one, making them near-useless.

It can be said but i don't think it is the same. Brother wolf from nw is not a prerequsite for anything and it does give you +3 attack and damage.

Shared spirit from seasons herald gives you +3 universal spell power.

So i don't think either of these are as useless as spending 3 points on flight to get fight which is really good for a melee.

Those 3 points are a waste as it is now. Both the enhancements that gives to the pet also gives you something else. I don't think they are a waste in the same way.

Scrag

02-02-2023, 03:03 PM

- Seasons herald tree has virtually no synergy sadly; it’s a caster druid with only one tree available (again!)

I must not be looking in the same place. I see combined 12% crit to acid, earth, physical spells between seasons herald and blightcaster. 1 max level, 1 caster levels for your season (pick phys or acid, its nice to have). Points can be spent in SH for efficient mm to get the tasty +8% crit, since you were (probably) going to get efficient mm in blightcaster anyway, allowing you to get more with less locked in one tree..

Thats my thoughts there.

Ultinoob

02-02-2023, 03:44 PM

Maybe change flight to a multiselector that gives what it does now or 1/2/3 dodge cap?

SilentRunning

02-03-2023, 03:55 AM

Arkai

02-03-2023, 04:07 AM

Since they are revamping some spells, what do you guys think about Horrid Wilting state? I see awful damage even in a full equiped force necro, and afair it didn't get its base damage doubled like Elemental spells in the last pass. What are your thoughts?

Edit to show some data. Those pictures are taken on a level 32 character will all relevant equipment and feats to cold, force and necro. I put special attention to the critical damage we get in every spell. All are AOE spells using the same metamagic:

https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/328672981_1366583024086604_3788003794659628784_n.j pg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=1oVUQoBH6WsAX9wEcxF&_nc_ht=scontent-mad1-1.xx&oh=00_AfDdGdtQM6nBjLGJ-hlOZdLJWSmK6kNhoBQ-DuaRw9ymgg&oe=63E15EF9
Necrotic Blast
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/328895853_1098255124904354_5262709722832762530_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=oDdfiVHG1kEAX9E6dVC&_nc_oc=AQmmgMWvhIscAFql8lKG4l6isfSqMPn_bWUDEOyOhWY SyLWMb5mV2MzBUY5n3n7B5NA&_nc_ht=scontent-mad1-1.xx&oh=00_AfBg-7pDz14svyf9blTbwxm6YjVcJwSk32xqGzhLyRTh4Q&oe=63E12150
Arcane Tempest
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/329137016_918213699491948_669084398060706190_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=j_Z3k72zXlcAX-vf8Uc&_nc_ht=scontent-mad1-1.xx&oh=00_AfA8novrXe1mA3zN3BxvqYfg29LHhuXti_4NttNYzy0_ ew&oe=63E1BAE3
Horrid Wilting 1
https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/323632307_1379053869588129_238253498147007425_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=J3GKsq8_8k0AX-cJC6G&_nc_ht=scontent-mad1-1.xx&oh=00_AfBo8frjXrYoETCDYMtqvobO5J-dOWCarP3s65TApTyrSA&oe=63E2927C
Horrid Wilting 2

I think critical damage is low if I see force spells, and that even if it's necro spell (idk what energy type you are using at the end, I thought It was force or untyped), critical damage perhaps it's not applying correctly.

Arkai

02-03-2023, 05:13 AM

Also, the "negative damage" on Wilting screenshots are Draconic mantle, it's not even the spell effect, to get how low the actual damage is.

neain2008

02-03-2023, 11:46 AM

Seeing as how this Druid seems to focus around: Death, Famine, Decay, Plague, Poison, Insects, Moss, Fungus. Bleached Bones. Scavengers.

Shouldn't it be able to heal from negative energy? Seeing as how it seems to revolve around it.

No. No no no no no.

While it would be quite thematic to have a full party of undead, all healing each other, in practice the more undead the harder on the healer(s) trying to keep people alive. They rarely heal each other and in the case of needing emergency healing, they heal less and so are far more likely to die if there is something still attacking them.

Xezom

02-03-2023, 02:10 PM

No. No no no no no.

While it would be quite thematic to have a full party of undead, all healing each other, in practice the more undead the harder on the healer(s) trying to keep people alive. They rarely heal each other and in the case of needing emergency healing, they heal less and so are far more likely to die if there is something still attacking them.

I kinda have to agree here. I don't think I've seen many Archetype threads where someone ISN'T asking for them to be healed by negative energy. Right now we've got pale masters (and any splash into), Abyss Warlocks (albeit very rare to see), and Dark Apostates (and any splash) that can heal from negative energy. I don't think we need a whole lot more otherwise it loses its uniqueness as a mechanic. If there were another class that I'd say SHOULD have a negative healing option, it would be something like an Oathbreaker Paladin (Dark Paladin). I don't think, or personally even want, every class to have an option to heal from negative energy.

Torc

02-03-2023, 02:39 PM

capsela

02-03-2023, 03:37 PM

Why not update acid rain/fog so that they... Hmm, I don't know, hmm, let's think about this together...
I got it! Make them actually do something! Yeah, that would be cool.

Bjond

02-03-2023, 07:25 PM

Sick concept. Sorry, couldn't resist. :p

Don't have much feedback for this one, since I don't play druids. Here's a little bit: add scaling notes to the descriptions (I'm assuming all the piercing things are force-power scaled thought I didn't see it stated). Perhaps include something more substantial rather than just damage type and artwork changes: disease & poison are rather naturally associated with reduced performance. This entire theme would really fit quite nicely into a debuffer role: movement, attack rate, M/PRR, accuracy, (etc) reductions would fit very well here and would put a big draw on playing or having one of these types of characters in a group or raid -- it would be more than a "three and done" class for completionists.

The only disagreeable part to me is the removable of heal and mass regen. They're utterly central to druids and it rather guts the class. Reducing it's heal output in any way puts it in competition with Sorcerer as a pure-DPS and there's nothing even remotely close to making it on-par with Sorc in the changes I've seen.

droid327

02-03-2023, 08:16 PM

The only disagreeable part to me is the removable of heal and mass regen. They're utterly central to druids and it rather guts the class. Reducing it's heal output in any way puts it in competition with Sorcerer as a pure-DPS and there's nothing even remotely close to making it on-par with Sorc in the changes I've seen.

Burst self-healing is far more of a concern for soloing than grouping...and for soloing, you're going to be stacking lots of Death Eater stacks. That constant stream of temp HP is going to offset a lot of incoming DPS, which makes HOTs like Vigor more practical than they are for standard Druids.

For healing others, yeah its not a heal class...but I'd compare it more with a Wizard than a Sorc, since it seems to have more martial abilities similar to an EK/PM. Neither of the Blight forms seem as purely glass-cannon caster as Elemental forms do for standard Druid.

Bjond

02-03-2023, 08:43 PM

constant stream of temp HP is going to offset a lot of incoming DPS, which makes HOTs like Vigor more practical than they are for standard Druids

Unfortunately, it's an on-kill ability and only applied to the druid; ie. it's going to suffer the same fate as blackrazor and souleater -- use in a group makes it pointless since you didn't get the kill. It's also self-applied temporary HP, which is only useful if you're tanking, but the tanking tree was removed. I'd guess when grouped for XP, you might build up a little buffer for taking an extra hit, but that's it (a 500 HP stack at cap is worth less than half of one hit there). Completely pointless in most raids where there's just not enough trash regularly dying specifically to you to trigger it.

HA! Here's an idea: sure, strip Heal and all the vigors and regen, but replace with versions that apply a stacking (with themselves not each other) TMP HP buff to the target; eg. blightshield for regen that pops a power-scaled tmp-hp buff to the target where each of those buff stacks with itself (only) and applies the same debuff cleansing effect, but when the stack is destroyed rather than on application. Now that would be an interesting kind of "healer" -- kinda like the FFXIV Scholar. I had a lot of fun playing that in FFXIV. The style permits you to be proactive on heals, but otherwise work a rotation for some extra DPS.

The problem with adding a "tmp heal" healer, though, is it's synergistic balance effect on grouping and raiding when there's potentially a regular healer and a tank, too. It would definitely need some serious balance attention.

Xezom

02-04-2023, 01:02 AM

That makes sense. The thorns spells are their own type (and force) but are not considered acid or poison spells in of themselves.

-T

Glad to help figure out what the culprit was. Hopefully the immunity strip will work on the thorn spells in preview 3/live since there’s t5 point that adds poison or acid to your thorn spells. It also helps with using the poison or acid dragonic mantle. Poison especially since poison force is easier to build as negative and force do come together but poison is harder to use due to immunities.

If they’re not supposed to strip immunity, I’d add a note that states that, “your poison and acid spells remove poison and acid immunity.” Rather than “your spells remove poison and acid immunity.”

Lotoc

02-04-2023, 01:20 AM

I kinda have to agree here. I don't think I've seen many Archetype threads where someone ISN'T asking for them to be healed by negative energy. Right now we've got pale masters (and any splash into), Abyss Warlocks (albeit very rare to see), and Dark Apostates (and any splash) that can heal from negative energy. I don't think we need a whole lot more otherwise it loses its uniqueness as a mechanic. If there were another class that I'd say SHOULD have a negative healing option, it would be something like an Oathbreaker Paladin (Dark Paladin). I don't think, or personally even want, every class to have an option to heal from negative energy.

Considering Oathbreaker is a 5e thing (DDO paladins don't even have oaths to break, they're deity focused) and the archetypes thus far are pretty much centered around 3.5 prestige classes Bone Knight is probably the more likely undead archetype for martials, especially considering it's an Eberron setting prestige class related to Karnath as a region.

Xezom

02-04-2023, 02:48 AM

Considering Oathbreaker is a 5e thing (DDO paladins don't even have oaths to break, they're deity focused) and the archetypes thus far are pretty much centered around 3.5 subclasses Bone Knight is probably the more likely undead archetype for martials, especially considering it's an Eberron setting prestige class related to Karnath as a region.

Oath breaker was just a name I was throwing out, and wasn’t intended as a point of reference to any certain dnd edition. My point was just that the only remaining archetype/subclass set up that I could justifiably see needing negative healing would be a fallen Paladin/tank of some sort. A Bone knight sounds more fitting by the name (know nothing of the actual subclass but one can guess).

I’m not 100% sure where the infatuation with negative healing came from (my guess is the popularity of pale masters and introduction of dark apostates), but to me it should be a flavor used sparingly, not a spice thrown into every recipe.

Lotoc

02-04-2023, 04:57 AM

I’m not 100% sure where the infatuation with negative healing came from (my guess is the popularity of pale masters and introduction of dark apostates), but to me it should be a flavor used sparingly, not a spice thrown into every recipe.

personally I mostly like undead builds for the immunities and when it comes to Dark Apostate it's very satisfying having spells which heal yourself and nuke everything around you (Mass Inflicts) that don't fall off hard after level 10 like NEB.

Zeklijan

02-04-2023, 11:56 PM

Perhaps include something more substantial rather than just damage type and artwork changes: disease & poison are rather naturally associated with reduced performance. This entire theme would really fit quite nicely into a debuffer role: movement, attack rate, M/PRR, accuracy, (etc) reductions would fit very well here and would put a big draw on playing or having one of these types of characters in a group or raid -- it would be more than a "three and done" class for completionists.

I agree! I'm definitely hoping to see some interesting debuff spells that are form-specific to Hive and Thorn. :)

The only disagreeable part to me is the removable of heal and mass regen. They're utterly central to druids and it rather guts the class. Reducing it's heal output in any way puts it in competition with Sorcerer as a pure-DPS and there's nothing even remotely close to making it on-par with Sorc in the changes I've seen.

Personally, I don't think it's that bad. Mass Greater Vigor is still a really good spell, and you have regenerate for your own self healing. Even without heal, cure spells and Mass regenerate, Blight druid will be far ahead in terms of healing to a sorcerer, who needs to use epic destinies to get any healing.

Base druid will be the better choice for a healer, and I think that's okay.

Duhboy

02-05-2023, 03:55 AM

The only things I have a problem with Blightcaster other than losing Heal is that alot of the acid spells such as Acid Rain for example is not being able to be heightened and "Thorns in your side is not affecting the new Grasping Thorns spell despite it being a thorn spell.

Xezom

02-05-2023, 03:54 PM

I agree! I'm definitely hoping to see some interesting debuff spells that are form-specific to Hive and Thorn. :)

Personally, I don't think it's that bad. Mass Greater Vigor is still a really good spell, and you have regenerate for your own self healing. Even without heal, cure spells and Mass regenerate, Blight druid will be far ahead in terms of healing to a sorcerer, who needs to use epic destinies to get any healing.

Base druid will be the better choice for a healer, and I think that's okay.

I like the idea of form specific debuffs. That would definitely help differentiate the two set-ups for casters even better. Right now the forms are very close, as is the Water and Fire elementals, but there is lots of room to make them more defined. Thorn kin focus more of physical spells and splash poison, so debuffing around PRR would be a solid way to go, while Hive is more Acid and Poison so MRR would be better for them. Provides a way to contribute meaningful debuffs to a team on top of your 4 penalty to all saves.

I also agree I'm okay with base druid being better for healing than Blight casters. Thematically it makes more sense. Blightcasters aren't really supposed to be healers, kinda goes against the whole celebrating death thing. I NEVER want an Archetype to be released that is just the outright equal and/or better than the base class in all capacities. The idea was that Archetypes explore different play-styles, hit different marks, and fill different roles than their base types. Under no circumstance should an Archetype just be "base class 2.0." Which is why I'm perfectly fine with Archetypes losing something "signature" to the base class. Without that old signature, it pushes them into having to define their own niche, not just replay the old one with a new name.

Playing with the HoT's only means needing to be a more proactive healer, not reactive healing. For a damage dealing caster, Blightcasters are miles ahead in terms of healing than sorcs or non-pale master wizards. I sorta view their healing capacity like that of a bard. They have the ability to contribute heals in a pinch, but it shouldn't be their main focus. They're still useful in groups, as it's never bad to have more access to party healing. Where they really shine is small group and solo. Between Death Eater and self sustain they are very safe solo/small group casters since maintaining Death Eater is much easier in smaller groups than in say raids. Sorta reminds me of the old days of seeing Warforged Wizards running around for the ability to self-repair.

Skyael

02-05-2023, 11:02 PM

I like the idea of form specific debuffs.

I agree that a few unique debuffs would fit perfectly with the theme of Blightcaster too.

newmart

02-06-2023, 02:08 PM

Xezom

02-06-2023, 03:40 PM

I think that removing all summons and pet is overpenalyzing the bligthcaster. Removing all fire spells, access to better defence in protector and healing spells its more than enough to compensate the improved instakiling, supposing that either water, fire, thorn or hive does equal dmg. Water still has a good debuff and CC through Mantle of Icy Soul, not present here. You could add a more restrictive list, of plant and insect summons. Spider ally would be TOP.

I would add one of the removed diseases and give them a slow effect. The decreased PRR for Thorn spells and MRR for Hive spells i see as a must. This would give a more defined debuff aspect of the class.

I hate, in any game, when in the sake of balance they turn all classes the same thing with same numbers, only changing the color of the numbers. Classes and archetypes must be different from each other, to shine in different moments.

Definitely agree with the last part. I'm not a huge fan of reskins. I like different play-styles and niches between classes and set ups.

Its a bit late in the development for it, but now that you mention it it would be cool if instead of a wolf companion Thorn Kin could raise a Needle Blight (think Yester Hill) and the Hive Master could raise a biting swarm. I know pets and summons are kind of a pain on the server load and getting them to function correctly, especially the equip-able ones.

I still hold out hopes that one day we will see a dedicated ACTIVE summoner. There is a lot of support in the game spread out all over pertaining to charmed, hirelings, pets, summons. I'm waiting for the day when true summoners make their way to DDO. Where your active skills/spells are ordering your summons. There would be a pretty good amount of engineering and AI work needed I'm sure sure to make that possible, but I'm way off subject now.

newmart

02-06-2023, 05:43 PM

Definitely agree with the last part. I'm not a huge fan of reskins. I like different play-styles and niches between classes and set ups.

Its a bit late in the development for it, but now that you mention it it would be cool if instead of a wolf companion Thorn Kin could raise a Needle Blight (think Yester Hill) and the Hive Master could raise a biting swarm. I know pets and summons are kind of a pain on the server load and getting them to function correctly, especially the equip-able ones.

I still hold out hopes that one day we will see a dedicated ACTIVE summoner. There is a lot of support in the game spread out all over pertaining to charmed, hirelings, pets, summons. I'm waiting for the day when true summoners make their way to DDO. Where your active skills/spells are ordering your summons. There would be a pretty good amount of engineering and AI work needed I'm sure sure to make that possible, but I'm way off subject now.

Yeah, its a bit late, that's because I suggested a simple summon, already at disposal (the spider). Using pets with reasonable durability already demands a lot of feats, including the legendary feat, which is a lot for a caster build. Keeping the companion and summons will not raise this archetype above others by any means, but expand the possibility of a more summon oriented caster. The tree also has synergy with Feydark illusionist in the force spellpower, so its an additional way to justify augument summoning taking. Also has a striking synergy with Primal Posion path, that has an thematic appropriate summon (that could be modified to use some of the new spells, contagion and poison), in order to do less dmg than cold path, but a bit more debilitation and overtime decay.

The way the tree is now it's very hard to justify augment summoning taking early lvs to use the lv30 summon so late.

The tree also indicates a pet, the raven, and while I believe that is an inexpensive and interesting synergy between trees, any summoning would remove this pet (this should really be changed since keeps working, but despawns the animation) so the way to go its to keep an ally. Since they are giving a new ally to the ranger, I really believe they will rework all these pets someday, but when we reach out there, a spider companion with some web lands and the poisonous attack would be VERY thematic and appropriate (casting posion and melf acid arrow spell at later levels could u imagine that! Think in whispherdoom!!!). Obviously, there are other insects like beetles and bees already at our disposal and would be very interesting to have them as options to summon.

Druid class also has its brandmark versatility, cutting tanking options, healing, AND summoning seems too much, keep the pet options and reduced tanking and healing its very ok.

Gnominal_Aphasia

02-07-2023, 09:50 AM

So the blightcaster gets no wild empathy.

Taking extra wild empathy in natures warrior tier 1 does not grant you any wild empathy feat.

This means we can't use the tier 2 "Flight" which is really good and a prerequisite for other enhancements.

Is this working as intended?

Seems off.

This is pertinent. Nature's Warrier has two tier 1 "abilities" that effect Wild Empathy charges:
(1) Extra Wild Empathy: +1/+2/+3 Wild Empathy and Improved Wild Empathy uses per rest, and +5/+10/+15 Positive Spellpower;
(2) Athletic: tier 3 +1 WE and IWE use per rest.
These both fuel the tier 2 ability (3) Flight which provides +20% dodge for 10/20/30 seconds (Activation cost is 1 WE charge).

To keep the same spirit of the mechanic but respecting SSG's decision to remove WE as a theme for Blightcaster, it would be perhaps elegant to change the NW tier 1 into multisectors based on Druid type as well as the tier 2 offering an alternative to Flight for the Blightcaster...

(1') Extra Blight Bite [see below] charges; +1/+2/+3 and +5/+10/+15 Acid, Force and Poison Spellpower;
(2') Athletic: tier 3 +1 Blight Bite charge, and
(3') Blight Bite Action Boost replacing Flight as a multiselector option adding [say] +1/+2/+3 imbue dice for 20 seconds.

It would be one way out of the problem.

capsela

02-07-2023, 11:23 PM

ACID FOG
Description:
A billowing mass of misty vapors causes several effects:

Slows movement (~-5%).
Obscures sight, giving all creatures in the fog concealment (Attackers have 20% miss chance).
Deals 2d6 acid damage every 2 seconds to targets within the cloud.
Enemies within this cloud also suffer a -4 penalty to their armor class.
Notes:
The movement speed reduction is very small and almost un-noticable after recent nerfs. Perhaps -5% at best.

Also unlike many other persistent AOE, it has no initial tic, making this a rather poor spell for dealing damage. Acid Rain is far superior for this purpose.

Immunity notes:
Purple named are immune to most effects of this spell - only the damage and armor class penalty applies.

Red named are immune to only the slowing portion.

Also due to the way freedom of movement is programmed, in addition to preventing the slow, it also provides immunity to the miss chance from this spell for any monsters that cast/possess it.

2d6
2d6
2d6
2d6
lol 2d6
i cast it and say "I farted" in chat
That's the only purpose of "acid fog". All the persistant AOEs need updating. Whatever, don't do it. I don't even care.

Scrag

02-08-2023, 10:04 AM

ACID FOG
Description:
A billowing mass of misty vapors causes several effects:
...
That's the only purpose of "acid fog". All the persistant AOEs need updating. Whatever, don't do it. I don't even care.

I have posted elsewhere about acid rain, acid fog. i picked up ice storm because it has some sort of slow that doesnt seem to work frequently. niacs biting cold... doesnt bite. I can spend an equal amount of sp on a maximized (insert anything i have lots of spellpower for) aoe spell and blow things out of the water with one shot, maybe two. I only use ice storm as a precursor and then spam acid blast and cone of cold when I am pretty outgunned. Otherwise, these dots just don't do anything for me! :/

droid327

02-09-2023, 07:43 AM

All the persistant AOEs need updating. .

Yes, and they need more than just damage scaling too - though that's a big part of it

Damage scaling first, but they're always going to be disadvantageous mechanically because DDO doesnt really reward you - especially casters - for staying in one spot and facetanking packs of enemies. So they either need to do REALLY BIG damage to warrant the sacrifice to mobility (or having to chain it with CC spells, which require a whole separate set of tradeoffs to be effective)....or they need to be "sticky" DOTs that apply in the field but keep ticking even if the mob leaves...or they need to have a useful secondary debuff component that will give the spell value beyond its pure DPS

The update to BDB (and Melfs for lower level) is a good start, shortening the tick time shows they understand that long DOTs arent tactically useful in a fast-paced game like DDO...hopefully they keep the ball rolling down the Acid spell list.

Bjond

02-09-2023, 11:14 PM

Neither of the Blight forms seem as purely glass-cannon caster as Elemental

They're worse defense-wise than Elementals, IMHO. Next char I'm working on is a caster/tank druid. I tried mocking up blight caster to see if I should wait. Nope, water elemental isn't just a little better. It's phenomenally better as a tank: PRR+40, MRR+27, Slow debuff, Immunity Strip, Heals, and there's a matching Draconic form for the breath strike. There's no force-dragon for blight. You're stuck with acid and no immunity strip. Blight defense shines in heroic R1, but that's "uh, who cares?" The only thing that improves heroic XP rate is runspeed. More survival doesn't matter in heroics. Sadly, even more DPS/AE doesn't matter as much as runspeed for heroic.

IMHO, they've got a great overall thematic pick. Good job on that one. Next step is to decide exactly what the finale role of each type is supposed to be and give them the features they need to fit that role. They seem to have skipped that stage and are just fishing about with tiny fluffy thematic changes. Make it really work first. THEN go back and fluffy it up with nice stories and text about the how/why of the mechs to fit the theme. Story is oh so much more malleable than meta.

WildShape - Thorn Knight:: immune to mind & drown, 10% pierce, 5% blunt, 10% exceptional AC

WildShape - Hive Master:: immune to mind & and KD, tumble ethereal, 50% concealment, Improved Evasion, diplomacy-15

Knight's AC bonus is pointless in both heroic and epic. In heroic you have so much that more doesn't matter and in epic you need so much to make a difference that this does nothing. The 10/5 absorb is OK, but a fair bit worse than the 40 PRR an Elemental has (20 Protector 20 Elemental Toughness), particularly since it doesn't cover slashing. And, it has no magical defenses compared to the 20~26 MRR gained from protector for an Elemental.

Hive's concealment is a troll. Looks cool, does nothing due to the reaper nerf. Only raids are run non-reaper and some raids also just ignore it, particularly VOD which also includes agro-rinse on all the mobs (thus everyone might take a hit now and then before tanks can reacquire). If you want this to be nice, you've got a mandatory "run in SD Mantle" requirement to boost total conceal to 75% (25% in reaper). I've done that with a couple tanky builds and it's "OK". It is definitely nicer sub-cap mid-reaper or versus trash, but does nothing for bosses. I ultimately punted this style, though, because other ED Mantles gave better results in terms of both my char tanking/surviving and group surviving (US & EA .. particularly EA).

If you have decent reflex, I.Evasion and Evasion are effectively identical. It's more of a cheap way to gain NFOO if you're in SD Destiny. I used to love NFOO Reflex, but then I started running without it to actually see how much it mattered (ie. did I love it due to the concept or the reality?). It really does almost nothing. Now and then you take a manageable hit. If you need to choose NFOO feats, it's Fortitude >> Will >> Reflex. I want to like this one, but I know better.

So, effectively defenses are worse than water elemental EXCEPT for non-reaper or r1 heroics. Then it has more or even a lot more.

BTW, the interesting defense pieces to me when making a tanky caster are the mind & KD immunity. I'd assume KD isn't true immunity, just what we have now, but that's still nice enough to permit avoiding US (with a shield) or GMOF and taking a real caster tree -- that's pretty big. However, they're obviously aiming these at DPS by stripping out defenses and heals. DPS doesn't much care about KD immunity. Tanks and healers NEED it. DPS just likes it.

Mind? Let's just say SSG's track record with the word immunity is so bad I wouldn't even believe them if they jumped up and down shouting "it works, it's real, it works!" And, by works, I mean everywhere and all cases (aka immunity rather than "immunity"), including versus all Kopru & Flayer abilities. If it doesn't work versus those, it's pointless flavor text.

Minor peeve: WATER elementals can drown, at least according to wiki. This seems like a gross thematic faux pas to me, worsened by fire elementals being able to breath water (fire ele should instantly die, loose their form, or at least take a cold dot while in water, not grin and sing "splish splash, taking a bath!"). In-water features are extremely fluffy, but I'd do 'em like this:

water: breath & swim+50 .. water is their natural home
fire: looses form, small cold dot, or Hamp-50 .. should HATE being in water (really steams 'em up ..)
thorn: small HOT, debuff cleanse, or Hamp+50 bonus .. plants feed on water, should grow/heal in it
hive: swim-50, Hamp-20, no ethereal tumble .. normal flying insects drown in it and certainly can't "fly" in it.

Bjond

02-10-2023, 12:37 AM

Forgot to add that Blightcaster should have a pet goat instead of a wolf. That would be enough to ensure it's played well and often.

BUTT BUTT BUTT ...

Exactly.

Lotoc

02-10-2023, 04:49 AM

Been thinking about the tree a bit, the t5 and the capstone are really kind of dull, not weak per say but dull.
Creeping doom isn't a very exciting spell, even as an SLA, the capstone overall is quite underwhelming compared to practically every other caster capstone enhancement and could do with at least granting +1 CL/MCL to bring it up to parity with season's herald (honestly I'm half expecting a 3X/41 blightcaster/season's herald to end up outperforming actually going 41 BC) For comparison BC capstone is 2wis/con, an improvement to an earlier debuff and an SLA for a DOT spell that moves so slowly that by the time it reaches something you'll probably have finished 2 quests since you cast it vs SH being 2 wis/con, 1CL/MCL to all relevant spells, +1DC to evo/trans spells.
The t5 feels like it lacks some oomf, whether it be power or flavor it just could do with something that drives home being an harbinger of decay. Heck something as niche as a Crown of Summer counterpart.

newmart

02-13-2023, 03:53 PM

I forgot to add that a overtime effect caster its more appropriate to summon use. Since u are theorically waiting mobs to die, from my experience, investindo in The summons is a efficient way to tank and distract enemies. Moreover, a debuffer has The role of increase The efficiency of other party members attacks, including summons. A spider ally that does increased dmg in diseased fies, or a plant pet doing bonus dmg to entangled enemies its very nice. Prima pet is already in good form and thematic to bê used by this class, so no work here! It Would be very sad that this class cant use lv30 summon because u dint have any pet original summons all those lvs.

Hope u take this opinion on consideration, i hoped for it for a lonng time!