Reaper for Wilderness Areas?

[Ghop15]

One thing that really bothers me with the game is that it has cool content in the form of Wilderness areas, but I literally never touch them because there is no incentive or reward for me since they only offer regular xp. This is probably true for many other people as well.

The game gives so much xp just by doing regular quests that there is no reason to touch wilderness areas.

I personally think a solution for this would be to allow you to do the wilderness areas on Reaper difficulty for a small amount of Reaper XP. It would open up a bunch of content that people have never touched before and more stuff to do is always great for a game. I am not a developer or programmer so I have no idea how hard this would be for the team to implement on their end.

Let me know what you thing. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with this idea or has any other suggestions.

[AbyssalMage]

They need to make them n/h/e before they introduce reaper.

[droid327]

Yeah I dont really see Reaper mode applying to Wilderness areas, because they dont reset when you leave...you could rack up 999 kills in Normal, and then recall out, set the zone to Reaper, and get full Reaper XP bonus for your 1000th kill

I do think Wildernesses need tuning for XP/min, but it can just be regular XP, not RXP. The mobs should be able to scale NHE, and the mob density too like they do in quests, but again the XP rewards cant scale with difficulty without creating cheesing issues...so maybe like kills in Hard mode count 2x and kills in Elite count 3x (or 1.5x/2x or something, ie the same effect as Slayer pots, but stacking with them). That, plus increased spawn density, should make the XP/min a lot more competitive, outside the few places (Orchard, Tholme) where it already is.

[MatteKudesai21]

i like the idea of reaper wilderness and reaper xp for a few reasons.

Running around at cap, in some wilderness areas always seems like a waste to kill anything. especially if you are still doing epic tr's, and might be saving that for after. being able to get any amount of reaper xp out of it would be helpful.

Isle of dread seems like the ideal wilderness area for me. you have plenty of reasons to run out there, good challenge in some fights, and it drops usable gear. only issue is that i am usually 32 by the time i get out there. most 30+ quests, that reward lots of xp, are all waste on me, as im 32, and just running around trying to gather reaper xp. at this point, feeling pretty far behind on that, i will take whatever help i can get.

getting into reaper can be daunting, starting off with no points can be pretty rough. wilderness might be a nice inlet for newer players.

with some of the fights in isle of dread being a challenge, i would be really interested in seeing what they could do with a reaper scale. i think a n/h/e/r would be nice. normal would be nice for new players who can still struggle with getting through some wilderness areas to get to the quests. i still remember (many) years ago, being afraid to go into the subterrane with my first lifer, because i would just die.

most of the wilderness areas are beautiful. i would love a reason to go out there, wander around, explore, and kill things. isle of dread set a pretty decent standard for fights, items, rewards, and usefulness for crafting. hopefully its a standard going forward. its just missing the xp, (for me) but i might try to fit it into my cycle for tr.

as far as programing, im sure they can figure it out. either have entirely separate xp trackers, elite would keep a separate count, vs reaper, or something to that affect. i am sure they can manage a solution to that.

wilderness are a nice option. take it or leave it. but i love ddo for its variety, and options. and, im all for making it ease for them if we can. like they have a great base already, so with a few small changes, (hopefully not alot of work for them) we would have a few more options for the game.

[Ereshkigal]

One thing that really bothers me with the game is that it has cool content in the form of Wilderness areas, but I literally never touch them because there is no incentive or reward for me since they only offer regular xp. This is probably true for many other people as well.

The game gives so much xp just by doing regular quests that there is no reason to touch wilderness areas.

I personally think a solution for this would be to allow you to do the wilderness areas on Reaper difficulty for a small amount of Reaper XP. It would open up a bunch of content that people have never touched before and more stuff to do is always great for a game. I am not a developer or programmer so I have no idea how hard this would be for the team to implement on their end.

Let me know what you thing. I'm curious if anyone else agrees with this idea or has any other suggestions.

I feel like the open areas would be challenging to try and make tiered difficulties, as the player can have a lot more control in regards to what they are going to face and how they are going to face it. I'm not opposed, I just wouldn't want to see reaper XP handed out for something that wasn't at least as dangerous as an R1 quest.

[MatteKudesai21]

I feel like the open areas would be challenging to try and make tiered difficulties, as the player can have a lot more control in regards to what they are going to face and how they are going to face it. I'm not opposed, I just wouldn't want to see reaper XP handed out for something that wasn't at least as dangerous as an R1 quest.

scaled spawns, and teleporting reapers should bring it up to R1. im picturing something like the hounds from hardcore. again, the work for that is already done.

[ahpook]

Yeah I dont really see Reaper mode applying to Wilderness areas, because they dont reset when you leave...you could rack up 999 kills in Normal, and then recall out, set the zone to Reaper, and get full Reaper XP bonus for your 1000th kill

First, I don't think reaper needs to be extended to explorers. But if it was, then reaper XP could be allocated based on Reaper kills with Reaper being a new independent Slayer count.

[Firebreed]

The less impact Reaper has, the better.

[EdsanDarkbane]

The less impact Reaper has, the better.


Well said, while reaper is what it is. I hope we are all becoming more vocal about what we want in terms difficulty and game balance.

This is based on DnD 3.5 and should capitalize on that great system and it's products. I am salty still about the changes to AC. The nerf to evasion. The addition of Prr and MRR.

Someone talked about other options that were in the 3.5 systems that addressed SSGs concerns about what was happening back then. But instead of turning to the rulebook, they just invented systems that they now have to balance at an extra cost to us, the player base.

Hopefully we are seeing this change. We the players love the game and SSG, do not scorn us!

[Ereshkigal]

Well said, while reaper is what it is. I hope we are all becoming more vocal about what we want in terms difficulty and game balance.

This is based on DnD 3.5 and should capitalize on that great system and it's products. I am salty still about the changes to AC. The nerf to evasion. The addition of Prr and MRR.

Someone talked about other options that were in the 3.5 systems that addressed SSGs concerns about what was happening back then. But instead of turning to the rulebook, they just invented systems that they now have to balance at an extra cost to us, the player base.

Hopefully we are seeing this change. We the players love the game and SSG, do not scorn us!

DDO used to be based on 3.5e - that ship has sailed. Like a really long time ago. I'm not saying I know that they won't roll everything back, but they won't roll everything back. Time to pick a new fight.

[ahpook]

The less impact Reaper has, the better.

we should all close every post with this sentence

[EdsanDarkbane]

we should all close every post with this sentence

So so true.

[Ereshkigal]

So so true.

I marvel at the hatred for Reaper. I assume it must have to do with being harder to find Elite groups because most are doing R1+

R1 is easier than Elite once you have a few reaper points.

If you think it becomes too easy, then don't use all your reaper points...

I don't understand the drama about it. Not at all.

[EdsanDarkbane]

I marvel at the hatred for Reaper. I assume it must have to do with being harder to find Elite groups because most are doing R1+

R1 is easier than Elite once you have a few reaper points.

If you think it becomes too easy, then don't use all your reaper points...

I don't understand the drama about it. Not at all.

Reaper is a product of too much tinkering with the games defensive mechanics, and the way mobs were stat'ed. Early end game was raid soloing and build theory into build creation testing and build completion.

Enter a new set of rules(AC changes, PRR/MRR/Dodge) that requires re-gearing mains and alts. Compound that issue by expanding TR capabilities, and you have destroyed the old meta in favor of a much more unwieldy one that requires much more work on DDO developers. Now you have a lot of casual players able to manage epic elite, and they are bored, because they think the game is now too easy.

And now you create Reaper mode. A difficulty totally divorced from 3.5 and DnD. It has its own progression system! And now what happens? Players want are clamoring for more connectivity in pick up groups. Players are looking to play Dungeons and Dragons. And Reaper mode is not DnD.

So now we have two more problems. How to get players feeling like they are playing through a dungeons and dragons quest?

How do we keep the long-term casuals gaining more power, but still not let them solo raids with said power gains?

It's not hate though, it's deep sadness. Alot of those changes divided the community and we lost a lot of great players and great people.

[Tyrande]

Don't make reaper commonplace folks.

Even in D&D lore an adventurer will 99.99% not see a reaper unless he or she is almost dying or at death's door and has see invisible/true seeing.

[ahpook]

I marvel at the hatred for Reaper.

No hatred for reaper. I almost exclusively play in reaper mode. But it never should have been built out to affect non-reaper play. Reaper trees are another stat-flation mechanism that defeat the point of reaper mode. It encourage reaper play for those that don't even want reaper because of the XP boost while leveling and the benefits that work outside of reaper. It should have stayed an optional challenge mode with cosmetic and non-gameplay benefits only IMO.

[Drunkendex]

No hatred for reaper. I almost exclusively play in reaper mode. But it never should have been built out to affect non-reaper play. Reaper trees are another stat-flation mechanism that defeat the point of reaper mode. It encourage reaper play for those that don't even want reaper because of the XP boost while leveling and the benefits that work outside of reaper. It should have stayed an optional challenge mode with cosmetic and non-gameplay benefits only IMO.

Well said.

when reaper was announced it was sold as "challenge for the best" with no bonus stuff for running it, only an option for "game easy, me bored" crowd.

it turned into meta with all benefits of running it over elite. few reaper points and R1 is easy mode next to elite.

I find reaper boring and tedious. (in no small way due to mandatory option to hit incorp mobs in every quest)

and will never forgive Flimsy for ruining Amber temple to "combat" (not really) RXP exploiters there. you changed it so that they no longer get easy RXP there, bring mobs back to what they were. Turn Amber temple into one of the best quests in game again.


EDIT: forgot to answer OP's suggestion.

NO!

[Ereshkigal]

Reaper is a product of too much tinkering with the games defensive mechanics, and the way mobs were stat'ed. Early end game was raid soloing and build theory into build creation testing and build completion.

Enter a new set of rules(AC changes, PRR/MRR/Dodge) that requires re-gearing mains and alts. Compound that issue by expanding TR capabilities, and you have destroyed the old meta in favor of a much more unwieldy one that requires much more work on DDO developers. Now you have a lot of casual players able to manage epic elite, and they are bored, because they think the game is now too easy.

And now you create Reaper mode. A difficulty totally divorced from 3.5 and DnD. It has its own progression system! And now what happens? Players want are clamoring for more connectivity in pick up groups. Players are looking to play Dungeons and Dragons. And Reaper mode is not DnD.

So now we have two more problems. How to get players feeling like they are playing through a dungeons and dragons quest?

How do we keep the long-term casuals gaining more power, but still not let them solo raids with said power gains?

It's not hate though, it's deep sadness. Alot of those changes divided the community and we lost a lot of great players and great people.

Thank you for the explanation.

I enjoy reaper mode. But mostly because I play a caster and I like the lost soul drops. I'm no fan of R10, just low end reapers, though I suppose that might change as the strength of my character grows.

I skipped the latest season of Hardcore, because I was not interested in any of the rewards and so I've gone through 21 racial reincarnations since the end of September and I'm starting to feel that desire to do something other than the zergy R1+ grind for a little bit. This, and maybe more to your point, is where I would enjoy the feeling of playing 3.5 DnD. The main time I feel that way is the very first time I play a quest. If you do it when it first comes out, it's not so hard to find a group of people who are also doing it for the first time and the play becomes very different and enjoyable. But once I've gone through the quest once, the only way to recapture even a tiny bit of that feeling is to become a "guide" of sorts for other players that haven't been there - not giving anything away, but ensuring they don' t miss any hidden bits by giving them clues, and also by providing clues if they get stuck in terms of progressing the quest. But that's not nearly as enjoyable as doing it for the first time yourself. There's no new quests at the moment, so I find myself just chatting more in-game and visiting the forums more instead of actually playing.

The only solution that I see is to create a dungeon, that would be random - with everything being procedurally generated. Everything. From the material of the walls, floor, ceiling, to the Boss and the minions, and the traps, and layout and levels of the dungeon, and even the random critters that just happened to take up residence in the dungeon. The whole thing would be completely different every time. Preferably there would be an enormous list of possibilities for each thing, so that repetition would be rare. Of course should be a random encounter roll in addition to the procedurally generated dungeon that would spawn not only random combat encounters, but also random traps and puzzles, and even random npcs that might give a side quest, or be a traveling merchant, or just some NPC that's lost and wants to offer to pay you if you'll let them tag along with you so they can ultimately follow you to the safety of the outside -- and sometimes that tag-a-long might be a thief ( that you could try and sense with a skill check ) that will just turn on you the next time you enter combat.

Anyway, I could keep typing forever, but unless they create something that is completely randomized and different every time, I don't see a way for folks to ever be able to have the kind of experience you're talking about except for a small window when new quests first come out. Personally I wish they would have introduced random dungeons like this instead of challenges. i dislike challenges intensely, and I never see LFMs up for them so I can only guess that they are largely unpopular with everyone.

As far as soloing raids, I don't see the problem with people soloing raids, so long as it is very difficult and requires much grinding combined with a some creativity and skill at playing. If the few very top players are able to solo some dungeons, I don't see much of a problem. Having a few lengendary powerful beings out there is very much a part of D&D, and if a handful of those are actually players, even better. If, however, it becomes too commonplace, well, then I agree that something should be done. Like I think that's a fine goal for many players to have, so long as that goal isn't very achievable.

One final note, I think that the hounds from the prior hardcore season was pretty effective at making old quests seem at least a little more like DnD as groups would stick together, and were more focused on that common threat that could occur without much warning. Perhaps there's something to be learned from that experience that could be applied to DDO in general. I'm not sure.

[Ereshkigal]

No hatred for reaper. I almost exclusively play in reaper mode. But it never should have been built out to affect non-reaper play. Reaper trees are another stat-flation mechanism that defeat the point of reaper mode. It encourage reaper play for those that don't even want reaper because of the XP boost while leveling and the benefits that work outside of reaper. It should have stayed an optional challenge mode with cosmetic and non-gameplay benefits only IMO.

Well.

Yes, I enjoy the extra XP provided by playing R1 vs. Elite and it does speed up the grind.

However, if you took that XP bonus away, I would still play R1 insted of Elite, because R1 becomes easier and faster than elite once you have some Reaper points to spend. And because of the lost souls casters can more easily skip the shrines.

If you took away the reaper trees and the lost souls then i would not play R1 instead of Elite because the extra XP wouldn't be worth the extra time it would take me to complete the missions. I suppose there would still be some that would do it, but even if they did, I don't think most would be getting extra XP / minute when they did it.

So, I do see what you're saying, and you're correct that the reaper trees are part of the problem. I don't think the extra XP is really the problem, but rather a symptom of the problem.


Taking away the Reaper Trees now would be unfair for those that have spent so much time developing them - unless, of course, you could think of something to give them as a replacement - but what replacement could possibly serve as a substitute that would make everyone happy without becoming a problem itself?

Do you have any ideas for a solution that wouldn't enrage many players?

[Ghop15]

Well said, while reaper is what it is. I hope we are all becoming more vocal about what we want in terms difficulty and game balance.

This is based on DnD 3.5 and should capitalize on that great system and it's products. I am salty still about the changes to AC. The nerf to evasion. The addition of Prr and MRR.

Someone talked about other options that were in the 3.5 systems that addressed SSGs concerns about what was happening back then. But instead of turning to the rulebook, they just invented systems that they now have to balance at an extra cost to us, the player base.

Hopefully we are seeing this change. We the players love the game and SSG, do not scorn us!

Honestly, I completely agree with you. I joined this game in late 2019, and after playing it for close to three years I don't see why they put in things like PRR and MRR and Dodge being a separate % miss chance.

Adding all that stuff just made the game harder to balance with more layers of defence that the developer has to take into account.

"Everyone was playing a character with light armor and two levels of rogue for evasion." Well just get rid of dodge being a percentage chance to miss and make it a bonus to AC. Give heavy armor and shield users tons of AC and make it the only physical defence so people will play them. They also have tons more hits points than light armor classes so problem solved.

[Drunkendex]

Do you have any ideas for a solution that wouldn't enrage many players?

Reaper and Elite giving same XP bonus.

Wanna play reaper? please do.

don't wanna? you're not hurting your XP gain

[EdsanDarkbane]

Thank you for the explanation.

I enjoy reaper mode. But mostly because I play a caster and I like the lost soul drops. I'm no fan of R10, just low end reapers, though I suppose that might change as the strength of my character grows.

I skipped the latest season of Hardcore, because I was not interested in any of the rewards and so I've gone through 21 racial reincarnations since the end of September and I'm starting to feel that desire to do something other than the zergy R1+ grind for a little bit. This, and maybe more to your point, is where I would enjoy the feeling of playing 3.5 DnD. The main time I feel that way is the very first time I play a quest. If you do it when it first comes out, it's not so hard to find a group of people who are also doing it for the first time and the play becomes very different and enjoyable. But once I've gone through the quest once, the only way to recapture even a tiny bit of that feeling is to become a "guide" of sorts for other players that haven't been there - not giving anything away, but ensuring they don' t miss any hidden bits by giving them clues, and also by providing clues if they get stuck in terms of progressing the quest. But that's not nearly as enjoyable as doing it for the first time yourself. There's no new quests at the moment, so I find myself just chatting more in-game and visiting the forums more instead of actually playing.

The only solution that I see is to create a dungeon, that would be random - with everything being procedurally generated. Everything. From the material of the walls, floor, ceiling, to the Boss and the minions, and the traps, and layout and levels of the dungeon, and even the random critters that just happened to take up residence in the dungeon. The whole thing would be completely different every time. Preferably there would be an enormous list of possibilities for each thing, so that repetition would be rare. Of course should be a random encounter roll in addition to the procedurally generated dungeon that would spawn not only random combat encounters, but also random traps and puzzles, and even random npcs that might give a side quest, or be a traveling merchant, or just some NPC that's lost and wants to offer to pay you if you'll let them tag along with you so they can ultimately follow you to the safety of the outside -- and sometimes that tag-a-long might be a thief ( that you could try and sense with a skill check ) that will just turn on you the next time you enter combat.

Anyway, I could keep typing forever, but unless they create something that is completely randomized and different every time, I don't see a way for folks to ever be able to have the kind of experience you're talking about except for a small window when new quests first come out. Personally I wish they would have introduced random dungeons like this instead of challenges. i dislike challenges intensely, and I never see LFMs up for them so I can only guess that they are largely unpopular with everyone.

As far as soloing raids, I don't see the problem with people soloing raids, so long as it is very difficult and requires much grinding combined with a some creativity and skill at playing. If the few very top players are able to solo some dungeons, I don't see much of a problem. Having a few lengendary powerful beings out there is very much a part of D&D, and if a handful of those are actually players, even better. If, however, it becomes too commonplace, well, then I agree that something should be done. Like I think that's a fine goal for many players to have, so long as that goal isn't very achievable.

One final note, I think that the hounds from the prior hardcore season was pretty effective at making old quests seem at least a little more like DnD as groups would stick together, and were more focused on that common threat that could occur without much warning. Perhaps there's something to be learned from that experience that could be applied to DDO in general. I'm not sure.

Yes. I can easily echo your thoughts here. I also would like to add the rest of that missing DnD piece. The quests do get repetitive. And lose their sense of danger. It's only when we the players buy the fantasy of being our character in that quest that we can re experience some sense of wonder, only this time through our character and the gameplay design we use to express them.

This last thought is hard for me to articulate. But DnD is always broken and always has its balance issues. But it doesn't stop players (tabletop) from enjoying a less meta build.

When I say 'your characters eyes' think of a neat build you enjoyed and built story around, now when he levels up what spells would your character choose? What weapons? Why does that character express that Way?

I'm trying to say we can run builds that solo raids. We can also make characters we enjoy, and maybe that character needs a group? Who cares? That makes him stronger not weaker. Strong is the man with many friends.

I don't feel like I am doing you justice. But in summary: if more time was spent enhancing this other gameplay, and mirroring what you stated about the hounds, adding an element of danger, but expanding the way we see quests by bringing more roleplay to character creation and rewarding that during quest, and I think of the adding Languages as a separate skill. Some races have access to more as a feats, some classes too. But spreading the power around that way. Not trying to turn it into a console game.

[Ereshkigal]

Reaper and Elite giving same XP bonus.

Wanna play reaper? please do.

don't wanna? you're not hurting your XP gain

I agree that this change would be the least rage-inducing.

However I would still view playing Elite as an XP loss because I could complete R1s faster than elites - with fewer shrines being necessary from Lost Soul magic points and because of the Reaper Tree Enhancements.

So, I'm not sure it would have much effect on folks feeling like they could just do elites without losing anything - although the loss would be reduced for sure.

[ahpook]

...

Do you have any ideas for a solution that wouldn't enrage many players?

Nope. But my reading on this crowd is that you couldn't change the color of magic missiles without enraging a goodly number.

Probably the least that could be done is remove the bonus XP you get from reaper over elite but that would likely have to be done as part of an overhaul of how First Time and Bravery Bonus and Quest XP all work. I doubt anyone trusts SSG at this point to pull that off. Or at the very least move Elite Bravery up to the Reaper bravery numbers.

Likely the best that can be done is that Reaper is left untouched and not enhanced to make an even bigger reaper shaped hamster wheel. Which brings me back to the reminder to devs to not touch this mess they made:

The less impact Reaper has, the better.

[Ereshkigal]

Nope. But my reading on this crowd is that you couldn't change the color of magic missiles without enraging a goodly number.

Probably the least that could be done is remove the bonus XP you get from reaper over elite but that would likely have to be done as part of an overhaul of how First Time and Bravery Bonus and Quest XP all work. I doubt anyone trusts SSG at this point to pull that off. Or at the very least move Elite Bravery up to the Reaper bravery numbers.

Likely the best that can be done is that Reaper is left untouched and not enhanced to make an even bigger reaper shaped hamster wheel. Which brings me back to the reminder to devs to not touch this mess they made:

The less impact Reaper has, the better.

now that I understand a bit better where you are coming from, this seems like good advice.

[ChaosBuddha]

yes. good idea. right now there r no reason to do wilderness after cap

[cru121]

It would be nice to have reaper option for wilderness. If for nothing else, for item drop rates. Even without rxp.