Dark Hunter archetype thoughts.

[Eantarus]

So I actually really like the Dark Hunter in concept. A pure ranger that can trap is really cool. I'd love to see the concept applied to some of the pure-caster classes like wizard or sorc.

[droid327]

So I actually really like the Dark Hunter in concept. A pure ranger that can trap is really cool. I'd love to see the concept applied to some of the pure-caster classes like wizard or sorc.

Counterpoint...the only meaningful difference I see between DH and a Tempest Trapmonkey is the capstone. Which, while the Tempest capstone is pretty good, IDK if its enough to define an entire subclass...

We'll have to see how things shake out with DH tweaks through the next few previews, but I dont think it really does enough to separate itself from existing Rangers in ways that players will actually be able to leverage - things like the Wolf pet are non-starters in higher difficulties, and stealth gameplay is a meme right now. So you get...5d6 sneak die. And /2 Rogue already let you pick up 3d6.

While there very well may be good ways to fold trapping into Wizard, I wouldnt advocate for doing it a priori. It'd have to be a thematically appropriate part of some Wizard subclass concept. Especially since a wiz that traps is basically just an Arti with more steps.

[unbongwah]

I'd love to see the concept applied to some of the pure-caster classes like wizard or sorc.
It'd be interesting to see them implement Arcane Trickster (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) as a wizard archetype. E.g., trade Eldritch Knight for Arcane Trickster tree; add the trapper skills as class skills; gain sneak attacks as you level (let's say +1d6 SA per AT core) which apply to single-target spells; AT capstone lets you add sneak attacks to your AoE spells.

Obviously I'd want them to buff Archmage while they're at it so it's a viable alternative to the other wizard trees and not just the unwanted stepchild of the arcane family. :p

[Eantarus]

It'd be interesting to see them implement Arcane Trickster (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) as a wizard archetype. E.g., trade Eldritch Knight for Arcane Trickster tree; add the trapper skills as class skills; gain sneak attacks as you level (let's say +1d6 SA per AT core) which apply to single-target spells; AT capstone lets you add sneak attacks to your AoE spells.

Obviously I'd want them to buff Archmage while they're at it so it's a viable alternative to the other wizard trees and not just the unwanted stepchild of the arcane family. :p

I would much rather keep EK and trade Archmage for a new archetype :P I have sincere doubts that if the archmage pass ever comes its not going to be any good.

[ned_ellis]

It'd be interesting to see them implement Arcane Trickster (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) as a wizard archetype. E.g., trade Eldritch Knight for Arcane Trickster tree; add the trapper skills as class skills; gain sneak attacks as you level (let's say +1d6 SA per AT core) which apply to single-target spells; AT capstone lets you add sneak attacks to your AoE spells.

Obviously I'd want them to buff Archmage while they're at it so it's a viable alternative to the other wizard trees and not just the unwanted stepchild of the arcane family. :p

Absolutely Arcane Trickster - possibly my fave pnp class! - however there is already an add sneak attack to spell ability in the Shadowdancer ED iirc.
Depending on what they (may?!) do to better archmage it might even be one of the caster trees to make way for EK to make a skirmisher AT? I'd prefer your version though ;)

For the ranger archtype it would probably be better if they went all out on the 'urban ranger' theme and just added the dog to either version of ranger class.

[Valerianus]

don't worry, i think your wish will be granted...but in reverse

the rogue archetype will be anything but something roguish i think.

maybe a wizard\warlock-ish, more archmage than the archmage itself and will have more to do with shadowdancer than rogue.

or maybe a healer, alchemist-like, throwing healing bottles at ludicrous speed at your face with deadly precision, or sneakily pinning darts into your opened wounds, obviously coated with arcane concoctions...healing salve! directly where needed. all for your own good, turning sneak damage into sneak healing


hehehehe

[salmag]

Why remove cure spells and add admixtures?

They are very 'clunky,' for lack of a better term, to use.

So I guess Arcane Archers don't get a pet?
Can AAs, at least, name the Bird from Falconry?

One more thing:
Do the sneak attacks in this tree stack with Tabaxi sneaky attacks too?

[C-Dog]

The most significant aspect of this is that we now have a 3rd Trapper class, which (in theory) opens up new trapper builds.

In practice, I'm not sure the new builds will be significantly different, but time will tell on that. I would certainly look forward to being proved wrong. :cool:


So I actually really like the Dark Hunter in concept. A pure ranger that can trap is really cool.
The problem I have with it is two-fold: 1) that it's only subtly different from a trapmonkey build, so largely already exists, and 2) I'm not 100% feeling the "of course rangers can trap" argument.

(In tabletop, it would make perfect sense for them to be "outdoor trap" masters - in DDO, that distinction doesn't exist.)


I'd love to see the concept applied to some of the pure-caster classes like wizard or sorc.
These make even less sense to me. Of all the classes, Bard would be the only that seems to me to have any arguable affinity to traps, because "they know things about stuff".

[unbongwah]

the rogue archetype will be anything but something roguish i think.
Arcane Trickster: if it's not implemented as a wizard archetype, it'll probably be a rogue one instead. Though I'd prefer to see something new like Soulknife, which would also introduce psionics to DDO.

So I guess Arcane Archers don't get a pet?
Elven Dark Hunters can still take their racial AA tree, though the 14-AP "tax" is steep.

that it's only subtly different from a trapmonkey build, so largely already exists
I've always wanted trap skills and the Tempest capstone so I will finally have that option. Yay! Gaining 5d6 sneak attacks free in exchange for the "good" FE feats seems like a reasonable tradeoff, since you can supplement them with Enhancements or EDs. Also it gets Cure Critical Admixture, while regular ranger tops out with CSW.

If DEX-based:

42 Tempest for tier-5s + capstone
24 DWS for +1 crit range and Killer
14 Horizon Walker for No Step Missed and Haste SLA

If STR- or INT-based:


42 Tempest for tier-5s + capstone
24 DWS for +1 crit range and Killer
12 Harper for Know the Angles and extra Favored Enemy (or Strategic Combat)
2 Vistani for FE:Undead

Zero APs spent on Dark Hunter Enhancements, because the best parts of DH are the free / inherent class abilities and the worst part about it is its own tree. :rolleyes:

[droid327]

The most significant aspect of this is that we now have a 3rd Trapper class, which (in theory) opens up new trapper builds.

In practice, I'm not sure the new builds will be significantly different, but time will tell on that. I would certainly look forward to being proved wrong. :cool:



/2 Rogue trapper builds offer Evasion. Best suited for Cloth/Light armor classes without Evasion
/2 Arti trapper builds offer Runearms and Rapid Reload. Best suited for Inquis. Or possibly CHA builds, since you get Magical Training for Feydark (if any such build exists).
/2 DH offers Rapid Shot and TWF. Best suited for non-RXB ranged (RR vs RS is a push for Inqui), and maybe Unarmed builds (since they seem to really be pushing that on us lately)

Depending how much AP you have to spare outside your main build, DH also offers 2 Sneak die for 4 AP in DWS, and another 2 in DH for 7 AP

I think DH may end up being more of a /1/1 split with something like FvS, to pick up Trapping + 2 cheap sneak die + Trance, for classes that can go 18/ but dont have an obvious /2 handcuff

Or, of course, go /6 DH for Sniper Shot, but that's pretty much just going to be a palette swap from builds that already do that with regular Ranger. DH will give you 2 more Sneak die, which is nice.

[EdsanDarkbane]

It'd be interesting to see them implement Arcane Trickster (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) as a wizard archetype. E.g., trade Eldritch Knight for Arcane Trickster tree; add the trapper skills as class skills; gain sneak attacks as you level (let's say +1d6 SA per AT core) which apply to single-target spells; AT capstone lets you add sneak attacks to your AoE spells.

Obviously I'd want them to buff Archmage while they're at it so it's a viable alternative to the other wizard trees and not just the unwanted stepchild of the arcane family. :p

I could write up a post for the arcane trickster, wouldn't mind talking about this one. Been trying to play this since the cap was 10.

What do you think?

[droid327]

If DEX-based:

42 Tempest for tier-5s + capstone
24 DWS for +1 crit range and Killer
14 Horizon Walker for No Step Missed and Haste SLA

If STR- or INT-based:


42 Tempest for tier-5s + capstone
24 DWS for +1 crit range and Killer
12 Harper for Know the Angles and extra Favored Enemy (or Strategic Combat)
2 Vistani for FE:Undead

Zero APs spent on Dark Hunter Enhancements, because the best parts of DH are the free / inherent class abilities and the worst part about it is its own tree. :rolleyes:

Yeah the way Ranger divvies up its crit bonuses deep in two differnet trees makes it real hard to do anything off-page with it...you're basically locked into that 42/24 right out of the gate, and that only leaves 14 points to pick up a must-have (for TWF) Trance, which leaves nothing left for DH tree

Even on a non-pure DH, the only reason I can see DH might ever be anything more than a 7 AP splash for 2 Sneak Die is if you were trying to leverage the +2 Crit Mult in the T5 with something like Swash for range on shortswords with a Leg Cutthroats Smallblade. 13-20/x4 on a L32 tier weapon. But even then, you'd probably still be better doing it on a Barb instead since DH doesnt seem to offer much on the way up to T5. Bard already locks you out of Paladin and Monk anyway on that approach too.

[EdsanDarkbane]

As an fyi I would archetype arcane trickster as a wizard archetype.

[Coffey]

Are you able to Lesser Heart rebuild out of Archetype to regular Ranger and vice versa?

[droid327]

Are you able to Lesser Heart rebuild out of Archetype to regular Ranger and vice versa?

Yes, you'll get the option when you take your first Ranger level same as you would if you were normally leveling up

[Fauxknight]

I've always wanted trap skills and the Tempest capstone so I will finally have that option.

It definitely has the potential to make a more versatile Tempest build. I could see it becoming the new norm for Tempests. I literally have one character as a rogue/Ranger Tempest that this archetype would just be straight up better for.

[Coffey]

I dont understand why this Archetype adds trapping and takes away Evasion. From a Heroic perspective this is a vulnerability in Trapping. Epic Destinies practically gives away Evasion for nothing.

I suppose you would MC in HCL for Evasion and just do without on the regular servers until Epics.

[MJtheKing]

I dont understand why this Archetype adds trapping and takes away Evasion. From a Heroic perspective this is a vulnerability in Trapping. Epic Destinies practically gives away Evasion for nothing.

I suppose you would MC in HCL for Evasion and just do without on the regular servers until Epics.

It doesn't remove Evasion. You still get it at level 9

[Yamani]

I dont understand why this Archetype adds trapping and takes away Evasion. From a Heroic perspective this is a vulnerability in Trapping. Epic Destinies practically gives away Evasion for nothing.

I suppose you would MC in HCL for Evasion and just do without on the regular servers until Epics.

They took away evasion??? What???

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/536624-UPDATE-58-PREVIEW-1-Dark-Hunter-Ranger

Don't see anything about that in the initial post.

[Coffey]

They took away evasion??? What???

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/536624-UPDATE-58-PREVIEW-1-Dark-Hunter-Ranger

Don't see anything about that in the initial post.

Ahh right!

Thanks for clarifying that. I didnt see it listed but they did in a different way.

Ranger Features Removed:

All Favored Enemy feats that are not: Vermin, Elf, Aberration, Animal, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid

Its good to ask questions! I feel much better about this now :cool:

[Assassination]

Zero APs spent on Dark Hunter Enhancements, because the best parts of DH are the free / inherent class abilities and the worst part about it is its own tree. :rolleyes:

Really like the Dark Hunter, too bad it's enhancement tree is a dumpster fire. Could they step up and make it good?? Only SSG can answer that.

[amessi1]

I spun up a tempest in anticipation of Dark Hunter b/c it's been a while since I played a melee style ranger. After playing through a few dungeons it was clear run speed is missing from ranger, as an offensive usage this was no big deal, but defensively running away from a caster shooting force magic killed me a couple times and just felt sluggish overall.

[unbongwah]

Yeah the way Ranger divvies up its crit bonuses deep in two differnet trees makes it real hard to do anything off-page with it...you're basically locked into that 42/24 right out of the gate, and that only leaves 14 points to pick up a must-have (for TWF) Trance, which leaves nothing left for DH tree
At this point I think they should have +1 critical threat range in all of the level 12 cores and +1 critical multiplier in all of the tier-5s to keep things consistent. What would distinguish them is which weapons / combat styles they work with: i.e., Tempest's only works with dual-wielded weapons, Arcane Archer's only works with short- and longbows, etc. In the case of Deepwood Stalker, they could turn Head Shot into a multi-selector, so you get one or the other:

Head Shot: Ranged Attack. +5[W] attack that is automatically considered a critical threat. On hit, blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fortitude save negates, 14 + Ranger level + Dexterity Mod + Tactical Feat DCs) Cooldown: 12 seconds. You also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with any ranged or thrown weapon.
Head Strike: Melee Attack. +5[W] attack that is automatically considered a critical threat. On hit, blinds the opponent for 6 seconds. (Fortitude save negates, 14 + Ranger level + Dexterity Mod + Tactical Feat DCs) Cooldown: 12 seconds. You also gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with any melee weapon. While you have a melee weapon equipped in your main hand, you gain +20% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.


I spun up a tempest in anticipation of Dark Hunter b/c it's been a while since I played a melee style ranger. After playing through a few dungeons it was clear run speed is missing from ranger, as an offensive usage this was no big deal, but defensively running away from a caster shooting force magic killed me a couple times and just felt sluggish overall.
You can pick up Sprint Boost from either Tempest, Dark Hunter, or Falconry; though that means either giving up my preferred AP split (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/536701-Dark-Hunter-archetype-thoughts?p=6565106&viewfull=1#post6565106) or giving up Haste Boost, neither of which is ideal. But the lack of Fast Movement in the ranger trees is pretty glaring at this point IMO. It's annoying that rogues, bards, barbarians, and monks are all a lot zippier than my Tempests. :(

[amessi1]

You can pick up Sprint Boost from either Tempest, Dark Hunter, or Falconry; though that means either giving up my preferred AP split (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/536701-Dark-Hunter-archetype-thoughts?p=6565106&viewfull=1#post6565106) or giving up Haste Boost, neither of which is ideal. But the lack of Fast Movement in the ranger trees is pretty glaring at this point IMO. It's annoying that rogues, bards, barbarians, and monks are all a lot zippier than my Tempests. :(

i thought about that, but giving up action boosts for run speed is a bit of a non-starter for me b/c it means I won't have attack speed boosts during fights...which ultimately means I won't be playing a melee ranger for very long b/c there are too many much better choices (as you noted).

I should also note, i'm playing a tabaxi with full racials, so i've got the tabaxi speed boosts going and it's just not enough, or rather it times out when I need it most, to escape a combat situation i'm losing :(

[amessi1]

maybe if Dark Hunter had an ability like Spring Attack, but the damage dealt to enemies was on the launch and not the arrival, so a reverse spring attack...and maybe it granted 30% action boost to run speed for 5-10 seconds...maybe call it "Run to the Hills" (run for your lives).

[HuneyMunster]

Arcane Trickster: if it's not implemented as a wizard archetype, it'll probably be a rogue one instead. Though I'd prefer to see something new like Soulknife, which would also introduce psionics to DDO.

Elven Dark Hunters can still take their racial AA tree, though the 14-AP "tax" is steep.

I've always wanted trap skills and the Tempest capstone so I will finally have that option. Yay! Gaining 5d6 sneak attacks free in exchange for the "good" FE feats seems like a reasonable tradeoff, since you can supplement them with Enhancements or EDs. Also it gets Cure Critical Admixture, while regular ranger tops out with CSW.

If DEX-based:

42 Tempest for tier-5s + capstone
24 DWS for +1 crit range and Killer
14 Horizon Walker for No Step Missed and Haste SLA

If STR- or INT-based:


42 Tempest for tier-5s + capstone
24 DWS for +1 crit range and Killer
12 Harper for Know the Angles and extra Favored Enemy (or Strategic Combat)
2 Vistani for FE:Undead

Zero APs spent on Dark Hunter Enhancements, because the best parts of DH are the free / inherent class abilities and the worst part about it is its own tree. :rolleyes:

Arcane Tricksters start as Rogues don't they or does't it not matter what comes first?

As for the builds you listed I was thinking the same as Tempest/Deepwood to get the past lives. For 1-20 I would skip Horizon and spend a few points into Dark Hunter.

[LightBear]

Would love to stack sneak attacks on eldritch blast.

[Ereshkigal]

So I actually really like the Dark Hunter in concept. A pure ranger that can trap is really cool. I'd love to see the concept applied to some of the pure-caster classes like wizard or sorc.

I would like to not see this happen. I believe they should enhance the benefits of multi-classing, not start putting them into class enhancement trees so that multiclassing becomes less important.

I do understand their angle on a hunter that uses traps in the woods, but those traps are different from many of the kinds you see in a dungeon and I think there should be a differentiation somehow from what rogues can do with traps.

Along that same line of thought, WhThFu does picking locks have to do with a hunter in the forest? What use do they have for that skill?

I mean if we were doing an Urban Hunter - like a bounty hunter - then o.k. - but that's not how this was presented by SSG ---- picking locks in the forest to make it easier to catch that prey... ok.

[EdsanDarkbane]

I would like to not see this happen. I believe they should enhance the benefits of multi-classing, not start putting them into class enhancement trees so that multiclassing becomes less important.

I do understand their angle on a hunter that uses traps in the woods, but those traps are different from many of the kinds you see in a dungeon and I think there should be a differentiation somehow from what rogues can do with traps.

Along that same line of thought, WhThFu does picking locks have to do with a hunter in the forest? What use do they have for that skill?

I mean if we were doing an Urban Hunter - like a bounty hunter - then o.k. - but that's not how this was presented by SSG ---- picking locks in the forest to make it easier to catch that prey... ok.

I hear your thoughts on this. The almagamation of rogue and ranger. To me this represents that the devs are adapting the ranger class to what we the players use it for. So Dark Hunter is really a player concept that the devs are validating.

[unbongwah]

Arcane Tricksters start as Rogues don't they or does't it not matter what comes first?
Well the first question is: which version of Arcane Trickster are we talking about? In 3.xE, it's a prestige class (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm) meant for arcane casters with a splash of rogue. In 5E, it's a rogue subclass (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/rogue:arcane-trickster). DDO started out being based on 3E but concepts from later editions have been "bleeding" into DDO for a long time now. And since DDO doesn't have prestige classes, Arcane Trickster will have to be implemented as either an archetype or possibly an Universal Enhancement tree.

Likewise Dark Hunter is originally a 3E prestige class (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/prestigeCwar/darkHunter.html) which SSG has decided to implement as a ranger archetype rather than, say, rogue.

[Coffey]

I hear your thoughts on this. The almagamation of rogue and ranger. To me this represents that the devs are adapting the ranger class to what we the players use it for. So Dark Hunter is really a player concept that the devs are validating.

They just need to rebuild most of the enhancement tree to make it palatable.

The ranged death attack seems to be a failed idea atm because of the inability to consistently target ranged mobs. I think an oh **** AOE attack if you get surrounded would be a better way in the games current state.

[Ereshkigal]

I hear your thoughts on this. The almagamation of rogue and ranger. To me this represents that the devs are adapting the ranger class to what we the players use it for. So Dark Hunter is really a player concept that the devs are validating.

it was already valid with multiclassing.

Multiclassing is my favorite part about d&d and about ddo, but ddo seems adamant that they want to keep moving further and further away from allowing it to be optimal.

I will never understand.