Bavoria. No one told us

[Altra]

So, Husband and I have been playing about a year and a half.

One of my goals since I kinda figured out what parts of the game we like was clearing a wilderness area.

We decided on Barovia; well, it just kinda happened. We got all the scrolls and the slayer was close to cap, so we just thought we'd go all the way and take out the rares.

We didn't know <sob> we. didn't. know.

(Yeah, we finally wound up in the cave. Took us almost 3 hours nothing but chasing it. Wiki was no help.)

[Mindos]

(Yeah, we finally wound up in the cave. Took us almost 3 hours nothing but chasing it. Wiki was no help.)

It's a really cool location! There's a nice chair to sit on. :)

[droid327]

The Wiki page for Cebruvass says one of his portal spawn points is just east of Argynvostholt...couldnt you just keep porting there, checking for the Mists, and then recalling until you get it?

The fact that this isnt more common knowledge (I just learned about it through this thread lol) shows the downside of having auto teleport to quest giver...the wilderness itself becomes niche knowledge

[ahpook]

The Wiki page for Cebruvass says one of his portal spawn points is just east of Argynvostholt...couldnt you just keep porting there, checking for the Mists, and then recalling until you get it?

The fact that this isnt more common knowledge (I just learned about it through this thread lol) shows the downside of having auto teleport to quest giver...the wilderness itself becomes niche knowledge

its not a factor of the teleport. In absence of teleport it would just be characters riding to the quests and ignoring the wilderness. The issue is the size and total randomness making the rares somewhat pointless. You could runaround for days and without the use of the wiki most people would not know about Cebruvass no matter how much time they spend running to quests.

[Aelonwy]

I've done ALL the locations at least twice although usually its a once through grabbing whatever I see easily but the rares out there are exceptionally rare and owing to the rares spawning in many far flung random locations... really just NOT WORTH THE EFFORT. It would have been 10x better to have had 2 or even 3 times as many rares but with standard specific locations, even if the xp per rare were far less. Its not as though a wilderness that large doesn't have enough cool, mysterious locations for a plethora of rares.

The problem was too much RANDOM.

[Altra]

The Wiki page for Cebruvass says one of his portal spawn points is just east of Argynvostholt...couldnt you just keep porting there, checking for the Mists, and then recalling until you get it?

The fact that this isnt more common knowledge (I just learned about it through this thread lol) shows the downside of having auto teleport to quest giver...the wilderness itself becomes niche knowledge

We did that for about an hour and a half. Then he thought, "if it's random if he spawn there, would it also be random WHERE he spawns?"

So we ran out of the inn to the first mist, recall, break party, re-form party, go back out. He finally showed up, (long time. Long, long time)

We can say we did it. I'll never do it again! I love Ravenloft, but I have had enough of it for a good long time.So frustrating.

[droid327]

its not a factor of the teleport. In absence of teleport it would just be characters riding to the quests and ignoring the wilderness. The issue is the size and total randomness making the rares somewhat pointless. You could runaround for days and without the use of the wiki most people would not know about Cebruvass no matter how much time they spend running to quests.

If you had to run out to Berez manually every time, then occasionally people would stumble across the teleport spot that appears on that road, and the info would make its way into general knowledge. Eventually, everyone would stumble across it sooner or later - even if most didnt know there were other places to find access too

[ahpook]

If you had to run out to Berez manually every time, then occasionally people would stumble across the teleport spot that appears on that road, and the info would make its way into general knowledge. Eventually, everyone would stumble across it sooner or later - even if most didnt know there were other places to find access too

If it is consistent, (not certain that it is) it still looks like a random mist so anyone running to a quest would NOT click on it. It has been found because people were interested in running around the explorer and tried things out. That is how I found it, random luck while exploring. In the case of the OP they decided to get dedicated and continually click on mists to find it. They were not running to a quest and stumbling on it. The presence of teleports is not a factor because people using teleports are not interested in exploring the area (unless they are teleporting to that area to explore and not run a quest of course). Omitting teleports does not make explorers a better use of game time. Better explorer areas make a better use of game time.

[KoobTheProud]

I found him maybe the third time I ran the wilderness. Never once in 5 years since then. I just don't ever need Barovia wilderness as a complete process and so I don't hunt him down.

[Antheal]

Rare encounters should either be "random location but guaranteed spawn" or they should be "guaranteed location but random spawn".

Not BOTH random. That's just terrible design.

[ahpook]

Rare encounters should either be "random location but guaranteed spawn" or they should be "guaranteed location but random spawn".

Not BOTH random. That's just terrible design.

Very much this.

Although for Cebruvass, he could be a guaranteed spawn but since he is hidden behind a random mist any where on the map where investigating the mist will take you different area on the map he might as well be absent. The reward for finding him is certainly not worth it though the cool factor of finding him once is nice. Would anyone else have preferred that the mists activated by running into them rather than clicking and using the dialog (like they do in "into the mist"). They are pretty easy to avoid if you don't want to teleport.

[Xgya]

Rare encounters should either be "random location but guaranteed spawn" or they should be "guaranteed location but random spawn".

Not BOTH random. That's just terrible design.

It would be fun with that first option.

Make people to explore most of the map to look for rares, but no duplicates (I've faced the same rare in the map IIRC), and locations all over.

Guaranteed spawn but a few known locations would give it the old "The witch lives in this hut, but she hunts mushrooms in the forest to the north" feel old paper adventures had.

[droid327]

If it is consistent, (not certain that it is) it still looks like a random mist so anyone running to a quest would NOT click on it. It has been found because people were interested in running around the explorer and tried things out. That is how I found it, random luck while exploring. In the case of the OP they decided to get dedicated and continually click on mists to find it. They were not running to a quest and stumbling on it. The presence of teleports is not a factor because people using teleports are not interested in exploring the area (unless they are teleporting to that area to explore and not run a quest of course). Omitting teleports does not make explorers a better use of game time. Better explorer areas make a better use of game time.

I dont think its that much different than, say, the Yuan-ti optional in High Road. That's another randomized special-instance encounter, and it'd be pretty unfamiliar too if there was a teleport-to-quest option for that zone. But because you see it on the way, occasionally, some people will check it out.


Rare encounters should either be "random location but guaranteed spawn" or they should be "guaranteed location but random spawn".

Not BOTH random. That's just terrible design.

Collect crests/do puzzle is also OK - I dont mind the crests in Blands or IoD, nor the puzzle in Saltmarsh, as guaranteed spawns in guaranteed locations.

[J1NG]

I dont think its that much different than, say, the Yuan-ti optional in High Road. That's another randomized special-instance encounter, and it'd be pretty unfamiliar too if there was a teleport-to-quest option for that zone. But because you see it on the way, occasionally, some people will check it out.

The only thing is, Barovia (the explorer) is (much, Much) MUCH larger than the High Road. And the High Road also has one of the highest rare spawn chances in any explorer. So the chance of running into that encounter is much greater, despite it also using the same scenario of a random spawn at random location.

Incidentally, it is possible to reach that Message from the Yuan-Ti through other indirect methods as well. Unlike the Barovia one that requires an actual teleport to reach a location that is otherwise entirely unreachable.

J1NG

[Oxarhamar]

Rare encounters should either be "random location but guaranteed spawn" or they should be "guaranteed location but random spawn".

Not BOTH random. That's just terrible design.

Too much random is terrible indeed

I've seen this rare doing slayers




I like red named non rares in IOD every less

[Oxarhamar]

The only thing is, Barovia (the explorer) is (much, Much) MUCH larger than the High Road. And the High Road also has one of the highest rare spawn chances in any explorer. So the chance of running into that encounter is much greater, despite it also using the same scenario of a random spawn at random location.

Incidentally, it is possible to reach that Message from the Yuan-Ti through other indirect methods as well. Unlike the Barovia one that requires an actual teleport to reach a location that is otherwise entirely unreachable.

J1NG

Agreed like Epic Gainthold Random rares are alright because it's not so vast

[ahpook]

I dont think its that much different than, say, the Yuan-ti optional in High Road. That's another randomized special-instance encounter, and it'd be pretty unfamiliar too if there was a teleport-to-quest option for that zone. But because you see it on the way, occasionally, some people will check it out.

This is getting somewhat off topic but it is very different than the Yuan-ti optional. The Yuan-ti optional is an obvious rare that you will go kill and then an unusual bowl that you may click on to discover a teleporter to the caves. Cebruvass' teleporter is a mist. Like dozens of other mists that randomly teleport you around Barovia. No one running to a quest is going to click on a mist for a random teleport. You may never get to the quest if you did that.

And the number of times, I have run by the Yuan-ti and ignored them on the way to the quest is greater than the number of times I have killed them. I kill them when I want to do the explorer area. I ignore them when I don't. A teleporter to the quest would acheive the same results with less server resources.

An explorer area that is worth exploring will be explored. An explorer area that is not worth exploring will be ignored. Teleporters just make it easier to do the second choice. It does not make the first choice more attractive. IOW, A stick does not make something better but a carrot does.

[Oxarhamar]

This is getting somewhat off topic but it is very different than the Yuan-ti optional. The Yuan-ti optional is an obvious rare that you will go kill and then an unusual bowl that you may click on to discover a teleporter to the caves. Cebruvass' teleporter is a mist. Like dozens of other mists that randomly teleport you around Barovia. No one running to a quest is going to click on a mist for a random teleport. You may never get to the quest if you did that.

And the number of times, I have run by the Yuan-ti and ignored them on the way to the quest is greater than the number of times I have killed them. I kill them when I want to do the explorer area. I ignore them when I don't. A teleporter to the quest would acheive the same results with less server resources.

An explorer area that is worth exploring will be explored. An explorer area that is not worth exploring will be ignored. Teleporters just make it easier to do the second choice. It does not make the first choice more attractive. IOW, A stick does not make something better but a carrot does.

The teleporter should always be there every instance in a set location and the rare should be random would be a better way

Still I don't like the teleport system anyway if I'm running a slayer I'm clearing it out systematically being teleported is counter to this

[Wahnsinnig]

So we ran out of the inn to the first mist, recall, break party, re-form party, go back out. He finally showed up, (long time. Long, long time)

You do not have to break party. The party leader can reset the instance on the entry screen.

[SilentRunning]

The randomness of getting this particular "rare" is why I never bothered.

Instead of randomness, perhaps a jump through the hoops approach would be better, maybe as a final encounter type. You get all the other rares and then you get info from an npc to go to a location and take the mist at that location to that encounter.

Some people may not like this approach, but it would be more consistent.

[Oxarhamar]

The randomness of getting this particular "rare" is why I never bothered.

Instead of randomness, perhaps a jump through the hoops approach would be better, maybe as a final encounter type. You get all the other rares and then you get info from an npc to go to a location and take the mist at that location to that encounter.

Some people may not like this approach, but it would be more consistent.

That’s not a bad compromise

I have done every slayer to cap at least once

When I first started I didn’t leave Korthos until I finished the slayer area

This one is the most annoying rare

[ahpook]

The randomness of getting this particular "rare" is why I never bothered.

Instead of randomness, perhaps a jump through the hoops approach would be better, maybe as a final encounter type. You get all the other rares and then you get info from an npc to go to a location and take the mist at that location to that encounter.

Some people may not like this approach, but it would be more consistent.

You know I am fine with it being a bizzare and unlikely event whose discovery is its own reward. It is really not required for anything and the "All Rares" reward is already sufficiently implausible that it doesn't really make it much worse. I treat it like an easter egg that few will find. But yeah, if they had a better "tell" and more consistency it also would not be ok.

My issue is when "No one is finding Cerbuvass because of quest teleports" is being used as some kind of evidence that quest teleports are a problem.

I should add that this is still better then the Kings forest Rares. I still don't even know if some of them exist and work properly.

[SilentRunning]

ahpook

You know I am fine with it being a bizzare and unlikely event whose discovery is its own reward. It is really not required for anything and the "All Rares" reward is already sufficiently implausible that it doesn't really make it much worse. I treat it like an easter egg that few will find. But yeah, if they had a better "tell" and more consistency it also would not be ok.

My issue is when "No one is finding Cerbuvass because of quest teleports" is being used as some kind of evidence that quest teleports are a problem.

But is it really, its own reward?

I mean do you get random loot as a reward from the chest, or do you get a named item?

Getting random loot you can get from any other encounter doesn't sound rewarding whether or not you find this rare.

[Oxarhamar]

You know I am fine with it being a bizzare and unlikely event whose discovery is its own reward. It is really not required for anything and the "All Rares" reward is already sufficiently implausible that it doesn't really make it much worse. I treat it like an easter egg that few will find. But yeah, if they had a better "tell" and more consistency it also would not be ok.

My issue is when "No one is finding Cerbuvass because of quest teleports" is being used as some kind of evidence that quest teleports are a problem.

I should add that this is still better then the Kings forest Rares. I still don't even know if some of them exist and work properly.

Quest teleports aren’t the problem they are a good solution for travel and they reduce lag of running through

I don’t think players would find it running out to the quest as they would likely just ignore if they passed any mist since the goal is to run to the quest




The problem is with the rare + randomness the not finding is happening when players are looking for it not skipping the explorer

[ahpook]

But is it really, its own reward?

I mean do you get random loot as a reward from the chest, or do you get a named item?

Getting random loot you can get from any other encounter doesn't sound rewarding whether or not you find this rare.

"Its own reward" in the same way other video games Easter Eggs are a reward: satisfaction at finding it. The value of that may be zero to some. If you are asking is it rewarded adequately, in the typical of DDO currencies of loot and XP, for the effort required, then: No, It is Not. Not even close. But that is not a significant problem for something that can be ignore IMO.

[ahpook]

Quest teleports aren’t the problem they are a good solution for travel and they reduce lag of running through
I don’t think players would find it running out to the quest as they would likely just ignore if they passed any mist since the goal is to run to the quest
The problem is with the rare + randomness the not finding is happening when players are looking for it not skipping the explorer

Indeed (this "indeed" is in lieu of rep as I must spread rep before giving to Oxarhamar again).

[Onyxia2019]

I love the area. The storyline is great as is the varied terrain. There are only a couple of thing I would change given the chance.
1) Alter how/when the mist to Cerbruvass cave appears.
2) Why are the minotaur skeletons in the forest? This, for me, breaks the mood. They are so out of place. Just have a band of human skeletons. That would at least keep with the areas theme.

[LazarusPossum]

...And the High Road also has one of the highest rare spawn chances in any explorer. So the chance of running into that encounter is much greater, despite it also using the same scenario of a random spawn at random location...
J1NG

But the weird thing for me is why does my rogue acrobat (who was a wizard at first roll, but gave me much frustration to play in 2008 so I re-rolled him) consistently have a better chance of pulling rares, both encounters and items? Going to the High Road? Boom, Yuan-Ti. Need a weapon mat to craft? Boom, one with two augment slots is in the chest.

My rogue assassin never had success like this. Always zilch, zilch, zilch, zilch, zilch. I eventually decided to just let him be my crafting character, and do all my farming with the acrobat.

[Raithe]

Rare encounters should either be "random location but guaranteed spawn" or they should be "guaranteed location but random spawn".

Not BOTH random. That's just terrible design.

You are creating a dichotomy that doesn't exist. There is no guarantee in a particular instance that you will get ANY rare, so there is no fixed point position to say "I'm here but the rare isn't," or "I found the rare but not where it's supposed to be," or "I'm here but it's the wrong rare." You might get a rare somewhere in the instance. That is the only "random" aspect. You are clearly no expert on terrible design, because that is most definitely NOT terrible design. It's simply a feature of the game that can't be metagamed, otherwise known as good game design.

This entire thread is a real head scratcher, full of ridiculous comments and people who assume that every aspect of game design was made with them in mind. "Rare" encounters can be as rare and dilute as any designer wants to make them. You are not handicapped in any fashion by not getting all the rares in a wilderness instance, and I have very seldom tried.

If you don't like something, stop doing it. And yes, I do mean playing DDO.

[Aelonwy]

You are creating a dichotomy that doesn't exist. There is no guarantee in a particular instance that you will get ANY rare, so there is no fixed point position to say "I'm here but the rare isn't," or "I found the rare but not where it's supposed to be," or "I'm here but it's the wrong rare." You might get a rare somewhere in the instance. That is the only "random" aspect. You are clearly no expert on terrible design, because that is most definitely NOT terrible design. It's simply a feature of the game that can't be metagamed, otherwise known as good game design.

This entire thread is a real head scratcher, full of ridiculous comments and people who assume that every aspect of game design was made with them in mind. "Rare" encounters can be as rare and dilute as any designer wants to make them. You are not handicapped in any fashion by not getting all the rares in a wilderness instance, and I have very seldom tried.


Now I'm scratching my head. Some rares ARE guaranteed after completing specific efforts like gathering all crests, or solving a puzzle. Some maps like Menechtarun have a guaranteed rare in a specific area but its random which of a select group will be the one in that instance. Vale has the gnoll surrounded by mephits that is ALWAYS there. Though I cannot confirm it because my searchfu is not the best I seem to recall someone saying most rares have a 30% chance each to spawn in any given instance.

When people are discussing too much random in regards to rares it is that MOST rares spawn in a specific location and the only random is will-it-spawn. If the location(s) for the rare is/are also random and you cannot know if it has spawned then that is random+random that is both time-consuming and potentially frustrating. Yes getting all the rares in a wilderness area is nowhere required, very little is "required" in a game, but everyone is empowered to set their own goals. Succeeding at a minimal goal of getting all rares while passing time in a wilderness area should not IMHO be made so onerous. Its meant to be fun, yes?


If you don't like something, stop doing it. And yes, I do mean playing DDO.

While that is a valid option, it is just as valid for those that enjoy wilderness zones to give their opinions (much of what this thread is) on what could be improved to make such game experiences even better.

[PurpleSerpent]

First of all, I've updated the wiki's page on Barovia to direct people to the notes on Cebruvass's page; I should really have done this earlier, so sorry for any confusion caused.

Secondly, while I agree getting all the rares in Barovia can be a thorough chore, I would like to posit that it is by no means the worst offender in this regard. What about the Restless Isles, where one of the rares can't be accessed without using a one-use-only consumable item from near the end of a long quest that you have to repeat if the rare isn't there? What about the King's Forest, where some of the rare encounters fail if you mess up a skill check and others have extremely low spawn chances that only work at night? Worst of all, what about the Storm Horns and Wheloon, where due to missing encounters in the former case and a couple of bugs in the latter, completing the lists is literally impossible?

Plus there's the Cogs, which is basically Barovia with better lighting and lots of vertical traversal. The rares there don't even have fixed spawn locations (Barovia's do, although there are probably a bunch that haven't been recorded yet.) I've never even bothered to try that one.

[Aelonwy]

First of all, I've updated the wiki's page on Barovia to direct people to the notes on Cebruvass's page; I should really have done this earlier, so sorry for any confusion caused.

Secondly, while I agree getting all the rares in Barovia can be a thorough chore, I would like to posit that it is by no means the worst offender in this regard. What about the Restless Isles, where one of the rares can't be accessed without using a one-use-only consumable item from near the end of a long quest that you have to repeat if the rare isn't there? What about the King's Forest, where some of the rare encounters fail if you mess up a skill check and others have extremely low spawn chances that only work at night? Worst of all, what about the Storm Horns and Wheloon, where due to missing encounters in the former case and a couple of bugs in the latter, completing the lists is literally impossible?

Plus there's the Cogs, which is basically Barovia with better lighting and lots of vertical traversal. The rares there don't even have fixed spawn locations (Barovia's do, although there are probably a bunch that haven't been recorded yet.) I've never even bothered to try that one.

Those are good points especially the bugs and missing encounters that do not reflect well on the game that such issues were allowed to remain for years. It would be a kindness to either have rares ONLY spawn in permanent non-random locations or at the very least have map notes appear when a random location rare has definitively spawned. Not that, that is guaranteed to work as High Road often has map notes and even encounter information that spawns without the actual rare/encounter truly spawning. I guess they would need to actually make that work first.

[kpak01]

I should add that this is still better then the Kings forest Rares. I still don't even know if some of them exist and work properly.


They do and are. They were bugged for years, but I have completed them all multiple times since then.

Storm Horns, on the other hand, I have no confidence is actually working right. I have never completed all rares there. (And always missing 1 in Epic Wheloon, too.)

[btolson]

I greatly respect the amount of work that goes into wilderness areas. I think Barovia's is one of the most impressive, great voice acting and interesting story, and cool atmosphere (as with the entirety of RL).

That said, I skip wilderness areas as much as I possibly can. I don't like the randomness of the newer areas, and I don't like the trivial challenge they present either. There are almost always better things to do with my time. Once in a while though I try to take the time to at least do the explorer points once (as in ever, as a lifetime achievement sort of thing). Some slayers are worth dipping into. I don't farm rares and never will. And I love teleports because I don't have to waste tons of time being bored with running past things that can't hurt me or catch me.

[Altra]

You know I am fine with it being a bizzare and unlikely event whose discovery is its own reward. It is really not required for anything and the "All Rares" reward is already sufficiently implausible that it doesn't really make it much worse. I treat it like an easter egg that few will find. But yeah, if they had a better "tell" and more consistency it also would not be ok.

My issue is when "No one is finding Cerbuvass because of quest teleports" is being used as some kind of evidence that quest teleports are a problem.

I should add that this is still better then the Kings forest Rares. I still don't even know if some of them exist and work properly.

We start to completely light the map when we enter a wilderness, it's lit up by the time we're done. It's a goal we set for ourselves.

Transports are NOT the problem some players seem to think they are.

When we wanna do slayers, we do slayers. When we wanna quest, we teleport (if available).

[SilentRunning]

Barovia's teleports at least bring you to general location of the quest if not on the doorstop, it's one of the things I like about that place.

The problem imo is that in some of them you have to have completed a quest first to get transport to the location, case in point: Three Barrel Cove wilderness, probably quite a few others as well.

[droid327]

My issue is when "No one is finding Cerbuvass because of quest teleports" is being used as some kind of evidence that quest teleports are a problem.


I never said it was a problem. I was just commenting that apocryphal slayer areas are one outcome of having instant quest teleports. Its just one factor to consider when advocating for one design over the other.

[adamkatt]

I've done ALL the locations at least twice although usually its a once through grabbing whatever I see easily but the rares out there are exceptionally rare and owing to the rares spawning in many far flung random locations... really just NOT WORTH THE EFFORT. It would have been 10x better to have had 2 or even 3 times as many rares but with standard specific locations, even if the xp per rare were far less. Its not as though a wilderness that large doesn't have enough cool, mysterious locations for a plethora of rares.

The problem was too much RANDOM.

I agree, i hate random rares like epic gh or necro.. I just dont ever get those rares done because it just not worth the effort.. at least they did most if not all of the newer areas like the desert.. once you know where a rare is you can go after it until you get it.

[Oxarhamar]

I never said it was a problem. I was just commenting that apocryphal slayer areas are one outcome of having instant quest teleports. Its just one factor to consider when advocating for one design over the other.

It’s the random rare spawns combination with the mist teleport that is the issue quest teleportation has nothing to do with it