So let me get this straight...

[Deslen]

My main is a pure class melee fighter. I peeked at the imbue change previews a while back before going on vacation.

I hop on for a bit and see that my sentient set now grants bonus imbue dice. Fighters don't get any imbue. My race (Tabaxi) does not get imbue. The universal tree I use (Falconry) does not get an imbue.

I get some self healing! La-de-freaking da. I'm a high reaper tank. Slap that on the hotbar far from center.

So... Just a giant middle finger? I loose the sentient damage proc, and have nothing to show for it?

You will never hear me complain about other classes getting new toys. It's a balancing act that swings around. But a nerf of this calliber? Ouch.

Maybe I need to take a break from DDO.

[Tyrande]

Either use the +3 Lesser Heart of Wood Lyrin got for free to swap out 2 levels of fighter for 2 levels of rogue to get Venom Blades imbue in the assassin tree or

swap out 3 levels of fighter to 3 levels of paladin and get "Slayer of Evil II" in the KOTC tree for imbue.

[Deslen]

Loose a feat and the kensai capstone, plus have to see that "can't evade in heavy armor" message? No thanks.

Loose two feats and 15% AC? No thanks.

Guess the devs just hate pure class fighter that much.

16d6 epic proc gone... 56 damage per swing. Not exactly a small nerf.

I get that it amounts to a nerf to others as well, but at least their imbue dice scale with power.

[rabidfox]

plus have to see that "can't evade in heavy armor" message? No thanks.

This can be turned off via a setting =) (a shame about the loss of that filigree damage for you)

[Stravix]

16d6 epic proc gone... 56 damage per swing. Not exactly a small nerf.

I get that it amounts to a nerf to others as well, but at least their imbue dice scale with power.

I mean, a flat non-scaling 56 damage can't honestly be a significant portion of your DPS, is it?

[amessi1]

its rough for sure, and given you play melees i'm guessing you haven't played enough to find they accidently put a lot of the melee active abilities on the same cool down...so that's hosed, but torc is on it. i'm just taking a break waiting for the patch to roll in.

just some conspiracy theory here, but the last few release have pushed melees into some very, very defined lanes if you wanna do well at end game. it's not the builds are difficult to design, they're kinda boring, which, if I put on my optimist hat, they're doing this for some future state of the game where more levels re-introduce build diversity.

i've always liked your agro tank Lyrinn...a tank that does good dps is rare in ddo...i hope you find a way to rebuild, i'd be super sad if that build is dead. a couple racial trees have imbue toggles, but i didn't see one that compliments your build..maybe inquisitive, but it's gonna cost you a lot.

[rabidfox]

i've always liked your agro tank Lyrinn...a tank that does good dps is rare in ddo...i hope you find a way to rebuild, i'd be super sad if that build is dead. a couple racial trees have imbue toggles, but i didn't see one that compliments your build..maybe inquisitive, but it's gonna cost you a lot.

Inquisitive would move him into a ranged build since that imbue requires specific weapons so racial is probably the only option for grabbing one.

[ahpook]

Inquisitive would move him into a ranged build since that imbue requires specific weapons so racial is probably the only option for grabbing one.

A better plan is likely to swap the filigree set to something more useful. The 56ish damage was never the most awesome use of filigrees. I wouldn't be swapping levels or enhancements to make use of the 2 imbue dice.

I will say that the change to add Imbue dice should have come with an imbue toggle for those that don't have any imbue.

[Deslen]

I mean, a flat non-scaling 56 damage can't honestly be a significant portion of your DPS, is it?

iirc, I hit for ~250 on a normal, non-doublestrike, non-crit hit. I dual wield. I run haste boost plus reaper doublestrike boosts up to 96%. My character's DPS is death by a thousand cuts, not single huge swings. Doublestrike *does* effect that damage.

So yeah, ~56 damage per swing certainly adds up. Straight fighter DPS is getting nerfed harder than anyone else. On top of that, I have to figure out how to re-do my filigrees. Not just my main weapon set filigree, EVERY WEAPON SET FILIGREE. My main weapons, my thrower, my piercers, my blunts. I have 4 sentient weapons at end game, and I was proud of myself for narrowing it down so much. JFC, the devs hate melee. Casters can just pick an element and use it on everything. Immunity? Lol what's that?

As others have said, Melee gets hit harder and harder, over and over again. I understand that power swings wildly, that some builds are better than others at different times. The reign of casters has gone on for *years*.

With all the attention to other classes, Fighter should have gotten something like 1d6 slashing imbue as part of the kensai capstone, 1d6 blunt for stalwart defender capstone, and 1d6 piercing for vanguard capstone (shield spikes). Would have given us something without breaking anything else.

[Smurgels]

iirc, I hit for ~250 on a normal, non-doublestrike, non-crit hit. I dual wield. I run haste boost plus reaper doublestrike boosts up to 96%. My character's DPS is death by a thousand cuts, not single huge swings. Doublestrike *does* effect that damage.

So yeah, ~56 damage per swing certainly adds up. Straight fighter DPS is getting nerfed harder than anyone else. On top of that, I have to figure out how to re-do my filigrees. Not just my main weapon set filigree, EVERY WEAPON SET FILIGREE. My main weapons, my thrower, my piercers, my blunts. I have 4 sentient weapons at end game, and I was proud of myself for narrowing it down so much. JFC, the devs hate melee. Casters can just pick an element and use it on everything. Immunity? Lol what's that?

As others have said, Melee gets hit harder and harder, over and over again. I understand that power swings wildly, that some builds are better than others at different times. The reign of casters has gone on for *years*.

With all the attention to other classes, Fighter should have gotten something like 1d6 slashing imbue as part of the kensai capstone, 1d6 blunt for stalwart defender capstone, and 1d6 piercing for vanguard capstone (shield spikes). Would have given us something without breaking anything else.

I wish fighters got more love i rarely if ever see them anymore

[Kithyx]

Wolf druids didn't get an imbue either, guessing there's more classes not only left out but lost a chunk of dps from the filigree change. But elemental forms got an imbue even though the only player i've ever see do a bow build in elemental form was myself 5 years ago.

[Fnordian]

I haven't been playing a whole ton lately but still playing about once a week or so and was playing my Purple Dragon Knight yesterday.

So...I looked to see if there were any imbue toggles for fighters and couldn't find any on their enhancement trees.

And we realized that the Artificer Elemental Weapons and Greater Elemental Weapons spells (that we've always used a lot) are now a lot less useful since they seemingly won't help fighters (and probably several other classes) at all. This is sad. :(

Am I missing anything here?

[Fnordian]

I will say that the change to add Imbue dice should have come with an imbue toggle for those that don't have any imbue.

I absolutely agree with this suggestion.

[Strider1963]

This is the trouble with the whole imbue system. Its like you have to multiclass or be a certain class or race to get an imbue, so actually theres less diversity in the game than there was before. At times, I think the devs simply want to introduce new things just to keep the players busy changing their builds. I still am waiting for the totally op builds to come out using the imbue system, and the inevitible nerfs afterwards.

[Sqrlmonger]

This is the trouble with the whole imbue system. Its like you have to multiclass or be a certain class or race to get an imbue, so actually theres less diversity in the game than there was before. At times, I think the devs simply want to introduce new things just to keep the players busy changing their builds. I still am waiting for the totally op builds to come out using the imbue system, and the inevitible nerfs afterwards.

I was one of the few on the Lamma forum pointing out how the starting point for this imbue system was taking things away from existing builds and selling it back as feats, AP respecs, and filigree etc.. Essentially opportunity costs being presented as freebies.

Worse though, your notion that there will be OP builds featuring imbues is, as far as I can see, very likely wrong, at least in terms of capped level 32 builds. Just running the math on what imbues are capable of even 30+ dice scaling at 100% of 1100 spell power is doing <2k extra damage at a massive opportunity cost in terms of APs, feats, and filigrees. Similarly, ranged/melee builds are looking at 200% scaling on 300 MP/RP doing around 1200 damage, but again the problem is a huge opportunity cost in your APs, feats, and filigrees. To be perfectly clear, even getting 30+ dice is already not easy even when literally going all out for it and sacrificing every other option.

This, compared with existing builds that are routinely slapping raid bosses for 6 digits, is not remotely close to being on the same level. Essentially imbues are just a little extra bonus that if you happen to get some benefit from on your way to other good items for your build is a nice extra. Which is pretty much what it was before only now it's a bit worse in some ways and a bit better in others.

PS - To be fair, in heroics imbues can actually put in some real work, but the MP/RP/SP values are so much lower it's hard to see them really breaking the game open compared to what casters (e.g. sorcs/alchs) are already doing in the level 5-20 rat race.

[Deslen]

And we realized that the Artificer Elemental Weapons and Greater Elemental Weapons spells (that we've always used a lot) are now a lot less useful since they seemingly won't help fighters (and probably several other classes) at all. This is sad. :(

As another poster stated, wolf druids also have no imbue.

So yeah, more abilities taken away from those who do not conform to certain builds.

Devs, I'm all for giving other builds new toys. I have no problem with that. I'm not asking that they be nerfed. I'm just asking that you refrain from giving some builds new toys at the expense of other archetypes.

[Nickodeamous]

As another poster stated, wolf druids also have no imbue.

So yeah, more abilities taken away from those who do not conform to certain builds.

Devs, I'm all for giving other builds new toys. I have no problem with that. I'm not asking that they be nerfed. I'm just asking that you refrain from giving some builds new toys at the expense of other archetypes.

This wont help, but my shinto monk got jack squat from imbues. I also mentioned this, but a 20 shintao monk is never going to get more dps. Lol. Sorry bud. It's a crappy situation.

Nico

[Mamalian]

I wish fighters got more love i rarely if ever see them anymore

Having just finished Horc lives I did some as a THFing fighter and some as a THFing barbarian.

I think the Fighter may have done more damage and it's tactics were amazing. But barbarian is a ton easier to play, especially when leveling as a ravager where you simply can't die in R4 or less.

Fighter may be peak performance but it requires so many more button pushes to get there. The juice isn't worth the squeeze.

[Deathromancer]

Yes a lot of tunes can fix this with a heart of wood and changing enhancements and feats around, but if you have favorite tune with a favorite playstype thats not OP or bugged you shouldn't have to change it around because the chosen few like it a different way, this was a major nerf to a lot of players and while its fixable in some cases, not all, some will require TRs switching to an imbue format taking away from ppls favored builds, So DDO is no longer about choice its about being forceffed changes weather you like them or not. and the negative feedback is ignored so you have to imbue up or quit, not a very appealing set of options!

[LavidDynch]

Yes a lot of tunes can fix this with a heart of wood and changing enhancements and feats around, but if you have favorite tune with a favorite playstype thats not OP or bugged you shouldn't have to change it around because the chosen few like it a different way, this was a major nerf to a lot of players and while its fixable in some cases, not all, some will require TRs switching to an imbue format taking away from ppls favored builds, So DDO is no longer about choice its about being forceffed changes weather you like them or not. and the negative feedback is ignored so you have to imbue up or quit, not a very appealing set of options!

The op is a fighter and a tank, why on earth would he need to imbue up, perhaps spend those slots on fighting and tanking? With that said, he got all the rights in the world to complain at the current state of melee, but imbues ain´t it -- not by a mile. What if sorcs get a buff next update will you then complain about your inability to cast fireballs due to your +50 spellpower filigrees?

[slarden]

A better plan is likely to swap the filigree set to something more useful. The 56ish damage was never the most awesome use of filigrees. I wouldn't be swapping levels or enhancements to make use of the 2 imbue dice.

I will say that the change to add Imbue dice should have come with an imbue toggle for those that don't have any imbue.

Yes, some people used that filigree to add a little bit of damage, but any way you look at it's a tiny # at end game since it didn't scale. Replacing 56 flat damage with something equally useful shouldn't be hard. I've tanked many many R10s and never required this filigree.

[droid327]

iirc, I hit for ~250 on a normal, non-doublestrike, non-crit hit. I dual wield. I run haste boost plus reaper doublestrike boosts up to 96%. My character's DPS is death by a thousand cuts, not single huge swings. Doublestrike *does* effect that damage.

So yeah, ~56 damage per swing certainly adds up. Straight fighter DPS is getting nerfed harder than anyone else. On top of that, I have to figure out how to re-do my filigrees. Not just my main weapon set filigree, EVERY WEAPON SET FILIGREE. My main weapons, my thrower, my piercers, my blunts. I have 4 sentient weapons at end game, and I was proud of myself for narrowing it down so much. JFC, the devs hate melee. Casters can just pick an element and use it on everything. Immunity? Lol what's that?

As others have said, Melee gets hit harder and harder, over and over again. I understand that power swings wildly, that some builds are better than others at different times. The reign of casters has gone on for *years*.

With all the attention to other classes, Fighter should have gotten something like 1d6 slashing imbue as part of the kensai capstone, 1d6 blunt for stalwart defender capstone, and 1d6 piercing for vanguard capstone (shield spikes). Would have given us something without breaking anything else.

If you're doing 250 damage per hit in high reaper, that's not 56 from the filigree. It's being reduced by reaper reduction, so its only a fraction of your total dps

Not every single build needs an imbue, or else it's not anything special that sets apart classes, it's just background universal damage.

There are definitely two filigrees you can use to replace your proc damage that are better than even the old version of the procs anyway.

[Fnordian]

edit. Droid327 makes an excellent point on the post above this:

Not every single build needs an imbue, or else it's not anything special that sets apart classes, it's just background universal damage.

Nevertheless, damage bonuses that a Fighter (or wolf Druid) could gain a benefit from before (and often did with the group I play with), such as the Artificer Elemental Weapons, can no longer be gained by the Fighter (or wolf Druid).

[LavidDynch]

Nevertheless, damage bonuses that a Fighter (or wolf Druid) could gain a benefit from before (and often did with the group I play with), such as the Artificer Elemental Weapons, can no longer be gained by the Fighter (or wolf Druid).

When u first pick it up, at lvl3, you can´t even use the spell on yourself without gimping yourself.

[Fnordian]

When u first pick it up, at lvl3, you can´t even use the spell on yourself without gimping yourself.

Good point. So basically they made the Artificer Elemental Weapon spell even more useless than I realized. And it was one of the more useful buffs before this.

[LavidDynch]

Good point. So basically they made the Artificer Elemental Weapon spell even more useless than I realized. And it was one of the more useful buffs before this.

Swings and roundabouts; worse/useless early on, gets better with age. There is no denial that this is somewhat of a nerf for certain builds (more so on HC-server then live), but there is also no denial that pointing it out is nitpicking. Overall I think this imbue change is more interesting and fun then what we had. Mainly a buff to oldskool thrower builds and a nod to the general ranged community. Fairly sure there are some other odd builds out there that can benefit from this too.

[Fnordian]

Sings and roundabouts; worse/useless early on, gets better with age. There is no denial that this is somewhat of a nerf for certain builds (more so on HC-server then live), but there is also no denial that pointing it out is nitpicking. Overall I think this imbue change is more interesting and fun then what we had. Mainly a buff to oldskool thrower builds and a nod to the general ranged community. Fairly sure there are some other odd builds out there that can benefit from this too.


Yes. While imbues are potentially interesting and unifying system, right now it's both confusing and seems that a number of builds (and even classes) were effectively excluded from it, and that even when you do have imbues available it sometimes requires spending extra points that you didn't have to spend before to get the toggle for a particular bonus (although I think that generally means you'll get at least one extra dice from the imbue).

So if the various issues are corrected, including making it easier for players to actually figure out where all the imbue toggles are and what they need to do to get them all, this could be a good thing for the game. But for the moment it seems a bit of an uneven mess.

[Deslen]

The op is a fighter and a tank, why on earth would he need to imbue up, perhaps spend those slots on fighting and tanking?

Perhaps you missed the part where I said two weapons? My tank is also DPS. Not top tier by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly able to contribute.

I worked for years to earn all of her past lives to let me hybridize tank and DPS.

[Maldorin]

After having just played through a few lives of swf melee artificer with a toggle and the ability to get 7-9 imbue dice at cap depending on destiny, feat and filigree choices, I found I liked the imbue changes on that build.

I just TRd into a pure fighter, also swf. The problem with the current system is if your class or race doesn't have access to a toggle you do lose out on potentially a not insignificant source of damage.

I don't believe fighter is so op as to justify the absence of at least 1 die and a toggle. I do not want to splash rogue which seems to be the most viable route to get an imbue for a fighter.

So I'm going to add my 2 cents here and agree with others, and request they please add a toggle of some type to fighter trees or at least low in one tree.

[Eantarus]

I feel like if SSG is going to go balls to the wall on the imbue system, then they had better make sure every single class gets an easily-accessible imbue toggle.

[yfernbottom]

To me it would make a lot of sense for abilities that grant imbue dice to grant you imbue dice whether you have one of the pther abilities that they are meant to stack with or not.

To add to the list of classes that has issues with this, for a pure artificer that doesn't decide to focus on inquisitive the spell Elemental Weapons does literally nothing for you when you first get it now. You need to be much higher level before you will get a starter ability it will stack with. It's still useful for buffing others, but that's about it. It also no longer lets you take advantage of elemental weaknesses, so it's overall a huge nerf to one of the signature spells of the class.

Edit: I see someone already mentioned this above. Maybe I'll read the whole thread first before posting next time . . . .nah, probably not ;-)

[yfernbottom]

I feel like if SSG is going to go balls to the wall on the imbue system, then they had better make sure every single class gets an easily-accessible imbue toggle.

This, 100%.

[Aelonwy]

I feel like if SSG is going to go balls to the wall on the imbue system, then they had better make sure every single class gets an easily-accessible imbue toggle.

Perhaps fighter's could be in the Kensai tree? It could be 1d6 slash/bludgeon/or pierce dmg multiselector based on highest of melee/ranged power? Could be tied somehow to Kensai weapon focus group but I'm not sure how. There's an open spot on tier 2 or... could move extra action boost up to tier 2 just above the action boost multiselector on tier 1 and have Kensai imbue on tier 1 but... idk that would probably upset some ppl.

[yfernbottom]

After having just played through a few lives of swf melee artificer with a toggle and the ability to get 7-9 imbue dice at cap depending on destiny, feat and filigree choices, I found I liked the imbue changes on that build.

I just TRd into a pure fighter, also swf. The problem with the current system is if your class or race doesn't have access to a toggle you do lose out on potentially a not insignificant source of damage.

I don't believe fighter is so op as to justify the absence of at least 1 die and a toggle. I do not want to splash rogue which seems to be the most viable route to get an imbue for a fighter.

So I'm going to add my 2 cents here and agree with others, and request they please add a toggle of some type to fighter trees or at least low in one tree.

Fighter, wolf, and something lower in their tree for melee artificers would be nice. I am sure there are some other builds I'm fogetting.

[Aelonwy]

To add to the list of classes that has issues with this, for a pure artificer that doesn't decide to focus on inquisitive the spell Elemental Weapons does literally nothing for you when you first get it now. You need to be much higher level before you will get a starter ability it will stack with. It's still useful for buffing others, but that's about it. It also no longer lets you take advantage of elemental weaknesses, so it's overall a huge nerf to one of the signature spells of the class.

Yes. This was an incredibly lame and aggravating change. I almost feel like there should have been a new spell added rather than changing the original so drastically.

[Diracorvus]

Please no imbue for every class, especially fighter. The best thing about fighter is that it needs no magic, no spell points, no imbue. It's unique in that way. I think a better idea would be to look at greater weapon focus/specialization, make those feats stronger and balance out the damage discrepancies that way. Or just put a "you get +1 weapon attack and damage per imbue dice" skill into kensai.

[gravisrs]

Or just put a "you get +1 weapon attack and damage per imbue dice" skill into kensai.

Like mentioned 1d6 slashing imbue scalable with MP/RP :)

[Smokewolf]

My main is a pure class melee fighter. I peeked at the imbue change previews a while back before going on vacation.

I hop on for a bit and see that my sentient set now grants bonus imbue dice. Fighters don't get any imbue. My race (Tabaxi) does not get imbue. The universal tree I use (Falconry) does not get an imbue.

I get some self healing! La-de-freaking da. I'm a high reaper tank. Slap that on the hotbar far from center.

So... Just a giant middle finger? I loose the sentient damage proc, and have nothing to show for it?

You will never hear me complain about other classes getting new toys. It's a balancing act that swings around. But a nerf of this calliber? Ouch.

Maybe I need to take a break from DDO.

Yeah, those changes absolutely had you in mind.

[Eantarus]

but... idk that would probably upset some ppl.

Its DDO, literally any change is going to upset somebody. For reference: see this very thread, full people complaining that pure fighters don't get an imbue and others saying they'll quite the game if fighters are given an imbue. That's just how toxic this community is.

That said:


Perhaps fighter's could be in the Kensai tree? It could be 1d6 slash/bludgeon/or pierce dmg multiselector based on highest of melee/ranged power? Could be tied somehow to Kensai weapon focus group but I'm not sure how. There's an open spot on tier 2 or... could move extra action boost up to tier 2 just above the action boost multiselector on tier 1 and have Kensai imbue on tier 1 but... idk that would probably upset some ppl.

I like this idea. It should be in Tier 1 like Venom Blades on Rogue. That way if someone happens to be playing a none-kensei fighter they can get it without a huge point investment. I especially like the slash/bludgeon/pierce multi-selector.