Level Progression and its feel.

[Bagel99]

Hello all, just some small food for thought and wanting to bring up an odd gameplay feature that i find stilling my want to play. Heroic XP .... yeah its one of those threads where i gripe about the 3.8m XP to level to 20 and all that good jazz ... sort of. With level 40 on the horizon and the use of old quests inevitably being recycled into the new Legendary status as Epic had, i find the 3.8m xp slog to be ... just that a giant slog. Marketing this, Xp pot sales that, XP tomes, previous reductions in Lvl 20 xp to what it is now aside im coming at it from a fresh 1 to 40 point of view.

1-20: Currently sucks, levels 1-5 are always easy and fun, mindless really. 5-10 are ok, starting to run a few key quests a couple times to get a good leveling experience. 10-15 ..... Help me lord if this isnt leveling purgatory. I get on, run VON until i am now the inevitable grinder of Constructs, Mists until my side hobby is slaying zombies and then slaying their severed limbs, Gianthold until i cut giants down to my size enough to .... idk i zone out in here and then hope i have enough from the Sagas to get me into some of the later chains and Sharn. 16-20 Usually not too bad but Cogs, Sharn, Necro 4 sometimes and some other chains, character feels good at this point and the build usually takes shape.

20-21: Oh my what a breeze, fresh Keep on the Borderlands content, looty goodies, destinies! and more. Quest XP that suddenly doubles or triples from before AND i only need the initial what is it ... 600k. also a HUGE boon is amount of players to run quests with suddenly seems 100x greater!
21-28: Feels wonderful, bashing Drows, catacombs cause i didnt need the xp early on etc etc. Gianthold is enjoyable now as its with a good setup toon, XP feels chunky like chicken noodle soup and whatever chain i go into, even if the baddies kill me a few times due to eatin pizza or whatever, it feels like steady progress. CASE IN POINT THE XP IS STEADY, you dont need an XP pot but i get a couple sometimes to make it a nice weekend Dungeon crawl!
29-32: Good challenging content, baddies are bad*** and wont hesitate to slay you ... slay them first! Abilities ... awesome, XP slowing down alittle as it should but still feelin good, Loot cool as hell, Destinies ... my god they are beautiful and the build, almost complete.

30-40: Presumably going to feel similar to Epics and keep a steady XP to level feel etc, im sure itll be adjusted many times as levels are added and all.

TLDR: Heroic XP doesnt keep up with the old system of lives stacking XP requirements, it makes it sluggish even with pots and not necessarily because of the XP but the sheer amount of repetition to get key milestones before you can continue inducing burnout, etc. Personal opinion and all that. It just doesnt feel necessary to have quests designed around a 2m ish life and you the player running a 3.8m ish life when in Epics and Legendary the XP will not change per attempt/ reincarnation. I would propose a new XP requirement for Heroics be 2.25m XP period.

Heroics: 2,250,000xp per life, regardless of Champ,Hero,Legend Status.
Epic: Stays its 8,250,000xp per life, feels extremely balanced and a great job by the devs.
Legendary:1,600,000 for 31, 2m for 32, seems like a scale of 400K additional XP a level on top of the previous. Hopefully, and i pray that XP feels as good as epics.

I feel like many might gripe that this undermines previous achievements, and it may feel that way BUT with the goal posts being moved out with level 40 i think itd be a nice consideration to allow Heroics a gust of wind to get people into the content that the Devs work on, market and on that upper end train faster. XP pots will still be used, i know ill buy em still, and it might seem like itd diminish returns but i find myself holding onto them to get into Epics to have that nice streamlined 1 time completion per Epic attempt and it feels fresh.

Let me know the thoughts on this, i know a Dev might see this or Vets will see this and scoff about the grind but its a consideration for new players, those catching up on lives, the uniform rules of the game for reincarnation and the lack of time compared to previous years due to work or life events to play. And im sure with Legendary content, there will be more than enough in expansions, pots and sales to keep on keeping on in the office. Even if i had to pay a larger VIP amount to get a change like this through i would. I dont see the Dev time on tweaking some numbers being hard? Possibly unifying the XP per life mechanic might take a minute but still food for thought.

Im ranting at this point aimlessly so ill cut it off here. Thoughts everybody? Ill take the good and the bad, all criticism is welcome here!

Happy questing!
~Mike

[mr420247]

I here that why i dread doin racials on the alt for the frags

Most levels pretty decent now its just level 12 and 26 quests that are a wasteland for xp n good gear

And some cool heroic raids again like come on aint seen a heroic raid since shroud or

[Wizard1406]

Agree, heroics are a slog because

- High xp requirement for 3rd lifers compared to the amount of good/worthwhile quests in some level ranges

- Lack of players and LFMS, soloing is boring and feels less "alive" and MMO'ish

- Build is not complete you end up using the same few abilities over and over

- Some quests are not so great (sewers, sewers everywhere)

- No use in pushing the skulls (especially before like lvl 15), since the rxp payout is so low, making heroics a "spam super easy R1" quest run - boring unless you really like speedrunning

[Bagel99]

Agree, heroics are a slog because

- High xp requirement for 3rd lifers compared to the amount of good/worthwhile quests in some level ranges

- Lack of players and LFMS, soloing is boring and feels less "alive" and MMO'ish

- Build is not complete you end up using the same few abilities over and over

- Some quests are not so great (sewers, sewers everywhere)

- No use in pushing the skulls (especially before like lvl 15), since the rxp payout is so low, making heroics a "spam super easy R1" quest run - boring unless you really like speedrunning

Dont even mind the R1, i play most of the time solely on r1-r3. But its that mid land purgatory ( in it now actually ) keeping me away from the game. Aside from some less than fortunate decisions in my favorite tree Warpriest.

This summarizes it up nicely though, and even with the extra pace i dont think itd hurt those who picked up the game more recently to have a slightly easier time getting into the meat and potatoes of reincarnation.

[Smokewolf]

If your having problems mid-heroics its most likely because your running content that's not within your level range.

Basic examples just off the top of my head but by no means complete....

Character lvl 14, Mission Level 12 - Lords March and Raven Loft Sagas, Zawabi's Refuge

Character Lvl 15, Mission Level 13 - Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener, Giant Hold, Trials of Archons

Character Lvl 16, Mission Level 14 - Reminder of Giant Hold Saga, The Necropolis Part 4, Gate Keepers, Disciples of Rage

Character lvl 17, Mission Level 15 - Tethyamar and Sharn Saga part 1

Character lvl 18, Mission Level 16 - Cogs Saga and Sharn Saga part 2

Now with the Saga bonuses you should hit cap by the end of Sharn. Otherwise if not go run the Sharn lower docks or Slayers to grind out the rest. Also please note that you at the very least should always be running R1 or higher. Not only does this net you some RXP but with your Reaper abilities factored in, you'll actually run the missions faster than if you had chosen EE difficulty.

Side Note: Because some of these quests have Epic versions of the same content, they're often better run in Epics to maximize the RXP earned from the 1st time bonus. My regular group typically saves these missions for later in Epics when we can run them at R10. You saving them or not is entirely up to you and the leveling plan your following.

-Smoke

[KoobTheProud]

Heroic XP increase is an anachronism in the current age of DDO.

It's not like any other XP process has an increase in later lives.

It's really time to drop it back to 1.9M for all heroic lives. This would be a new player friendly move from a game that is exceedingly harsh to new players at this point.

[Wizard1406]

If your having problems mid-heroics its most likely because your running content that's not within your level range.

Basic examples just off the top of my head but by no means complete....

Character lvl 14, Mission Level 12 - Lords March and Raven Loft Sagas, Zawabi's Refuge

Character Lvl 15, Mission Level 13 - Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener, Giant Hold, Trials of Archons

Character Lvl 16, Mission Level 14 - Reminder of Giant Hold Saga, The Necropolis Part 4, Gate Keepers, Disciples of Rage

Character lvl 17, Mission Level 15 - Tethyamar and Sharn Saga part 1

Character lvl 18, Mission Level 16 - Cogs Saga and Sharn Saga part 2

Now with the Saga bonuses you should hit cap by the end of Sharn. Otherwise if not go run the Sharn lower docks or Slayers to grind out the rest. Also please note that you at the very least should always be running R1 or higher. Not only does this net you some RXP but with your Reaper abilities factored in, you'll actually run the missions faster than if you had chosen EE difficulty.

Side Note: Because some of these quests have Epic versions of the same content, they're often better run in Epics to maximize the RXP earned from the 1st time bonus. My regular group typically saves these missions for later in Epics when we can run them at R10. You saving them or not is entirely up to you and the leveling plan your following.

-Smoke


For me it's not about having problems and more about boredom and falling behind in levels by the mid heroics. Sure there are enough quests, but a lot of them I can't run fast enough (solo) to make it worth it. I really lack navigation, puzzle and "super mario" skills. Wiki helps but not always.

Sands is slow solo (I need to skip Chains, zero navigation skillls makes this take ages...) and Necro 4 is worse. In a group it's much better, but often there are not enough players. Is Tethyamar worth doing now? I remember it being scaled really high and thus not worth the time in heroics.

Newer/ Expansion quests (from Ravenloft onwards) are much better usually. I enjoy them both heroic and epic/legendary. But there's a gap for xp ~11-14. And if you start Sharn "too early", you end up barely lvl 18 and all good quests/chains already completed.

I think the level up path in DDO is far too rigid if you want good xp/min. Also a reason why LFMs fill slowly. No point in repeating, disencouraged from starting "too early".

[thedip]

I would love them to reduce the amount of xp needed to get from 1 to 20 so that I could pick and choose which quests that I want to do each life. I always seem to be going backwards as new races and archetypes/classes are added quicker than I can level from 1 to 20.

In addition to reducing the amount of xp if would be nice to retain the bags and bank space between lives. Each life I have to run the same quests to get the favour to buy the bag space. I would love to start in the Borderland, but no I have to start in Korthos as I need the coin lords favour.

If you won't/can't reduce the xp needed then double the dungeon and/or optionals xp on non hard-core servers, we have to put up with nerfs on normal servers based on what is seen to be "too powerful" on hard-core- let's balance it with some benefits.

[Bagel99]

If your having problems mid-heroics its most likely because your running content that's not within your level range.

Basic examples just off the top of my head but by no means complete....

Character lvl 14, Mission Level 12 - Lords March and Raven Loft Sagas, Zawabi's Refuge

Character Lvl 15, Mission Level 13 - Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener, Giant Hold, Trials of Archons

Character Lvl 16, Mission Level 14 - Reminder of Giant Hold Saga, The Necropolis Part 4, Gate Keepers, Disciples of Rage

Character lvl 17, Mission Level 15 - Tethyamar and Sharn Saga part 1

Character lvl 18, Mission Level 16 - Cogs Saga and Sharn Saga part 2

Now with the Saga bonuses you should hit cap by the end of Sharn. Otherwise if not go run the Sharn lower docks or Slayers to grind out the rest. Also please note that you at the very least should always be running R1 or higher. Not only does this net you some RXP but with your Reaper abilities factored in, you'll actually run the missions faster than if you had chosen EE difficulty.

Side Note: Because some of these quests have Epic versions of the same content, they're often better run in Epics to maximize the RXP earned from the 1st time bonus. My regular group typically saves these missions for later in Epics when we can run them at R10. You saving them or not is entirely up to you and the leveling plan your following.

-Smoke

I have no issue capping toons, its just Heroics tend to have a different feel to them compared to Epics in enjoyability due to the XP per quest: Xp required ratio. I follow this same path actually except i despise Sands so i always skip it 110% of the time. Its not so much a gripe on being able to cap a third life plus toon, but the fact that its not a set XP that allows for different paths to be taken and to follow suit with the Epic and Legendary leveling models. I find it to be alittle outdated and may be challenging for new players who cap their toon and reincarnate to realize the journey just became 50% longer because ..... stuff.

[Bagel99]

Heroic XP increase is an anachronism in the current age of DDO.

It's not like any other XP process has an increase in later lives.

It's really time to drop it back to 1.9M for all heroic lives. This would be a new player friendly move from a game that is exceedingly harsh to new players at this point.

I proposed 2,250,000xp per life in Heroics period. With more content and pots/tomes this seems reasonable on a playtime basis and allows you to save some quests or change it up depending on likes and dislikes allowing for a more enjoyable experience.

I agree, its a relic of an old game model where level 20 was the end all be all. Not only that back then 3 pali lives and some key others were usually where folks stopped and alts didnt seem as dauntingly behind.

[Bagel99]

I would love them to reduce the amount of xp needed to get from 1 to 20 so that I could pick and choose which quests that I want to do each life. I always seem to be going backwards as new races and archetypes/classes are added quicker than I can level from 1 to 20.

In addition to reducing the amount of xp if would be nice to retain the bags and bank space between lives. Each life I have to run the same quests to get the favour to buy the bag space. I would love to start in the Borderland, but no I have to start in Korthos as I need the coin lords favour.

If you won't/can't reduce the xp needed then double the dungeon and/or optionals xp on non hard-core servers, we have to put up with nerfs on normal servers based on what is seen to be "too powerful" on hard-core- let's balance it with some benefits.

I dont agree on increasing xp as itll mess with pots and tome interactions. My sentiments exactly though on reducing the xp a life, at a leisurely pace, a toon may take a very very long time, especially if new to get going without money being spent.

I dont notice bags disappearing? unless you mean the Favor granted options. It makes sense to have these though although Favor needs its own entire rework. Most people rarely go collect anything but their House K favor due to inventory.

[Malveaux]

I proposed 2,250,000xp per life in Heroics period. With more content and pots/tomes this seems reasonable on a playtime basis and allows you to save some quests or change it up depending on likes and dislikes allowing for a more enjoyable experience.

I agree, its a relic of an old game model where level 20 was the end all be all. Not only that back then 3 pali lives and some key others were usually where folks stopped and alts didnt seem as dauntingly behind.


lol You think they will keep the xp per quest the same. If one gets the xp cut so will the other. And you will be back saying the same thing. Just like the argument we need more gear for pass through levels. Same players we need more space. lol We need more space but not for more trash gear.