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View Full Version : Warpriest was nerfed hard U57



Bagel99
11-10-2022, 06:45 PM
Hello, all i have posted recently proposed changes for Warpriest multiple times in the Imbue changes 57.1 & 57.2 and as its own post over on the lamania discussions board. The feedback listed over there had not been considered and or heard to my knowledge and i would like to at least point out a set of simple crippling facts about the Live U57 Warpriest tree.

Old Wrathful weapons was a 10d6 Light Damage on Vorpal for 12 sec proc. Easy to upkeep, dealt a good chunk of damage and was a nice thematic fit. New Wrathful weapons is 3d6 Light Damage on Vorpal or 3 Imbue Dice, and converting the new toggle of 1d6 Fire to light for a total of 4d6 or 6d6 if your level 12, 7d6 at 18 with no other sources. The OPPORTUNITY COST is extremely high to retain what was a simple 2AP enhancement from before and underperforms without gear, dark apostate enhancements and the toggle cost.

In short we made an already top heavy AP tree, have more cost for its previous benefits and made it underperform previous numbers with no addition considerations.

The New toggle is in T4, Level 4, 20 points spent. Extremely clunky considering most toggles are gained early on and help the leveling process along, look at Dark Apostate. Not only that only 3 of the 6 cores add dice, to a fire imbue ... which will most certainly be taken as an absolute last resort. 1 Paladin level is stronger than Wrathful weapons as it stands with the toggle by itself simply for Damage reduction purposes. If anything the toggle needed to be 1d4 Fire and 1d4 Light Damage for 2d4, and Wrathful weapons a flat +3 Imbue dice with all cores adding dice for a total of 10d4 fire and 10d4 light.

In Short the new toggle is low die at 1d6, fire which has many mobs resisting its damage and its savior in T5 trees like paladin or Sacred fist have nice remedies for the whole fire to light conversion.

In essence you would only go to T5 for Divine bastion and Divine Power and compared to other trees like EK which offers BAB to level and melee power ON TOP OF Evocation DCs, to hit bonuses and more, its severely lacking.

I really .... cant stress this enough ... reeeaallllyy hope Warpriest get some love and in a good healthy direction, no shortcuts and no lackluster boons due to potential multiclassing. Multiclassing for more power always has drawbacks and was the shining light of DDO for years, balancing trees for multi class abuse dissolves power for Pure classes and hurts the feel of playing that class. I hope this isn't taken as a direct insult or flames towards this patch, i enjoy the imbue system and what it can do to help an old engine and open the doors of a mechanic to newer folks in an easy to grasp way BUT an already weakened class tree is now hurting because of the direction taken.

Sincerely,
~Mike

Update: 11/12/22
Lyn has posted about problems in the Warsoul tree and likely many of these concerns are known already. I'll consider this thread moot at this point. Thanks to all those who responded, especially with criticism, helps perspective!

Coffey
11-10-2022, 11:00 PM
Totally agree with you.

At least change the tier 5 Wrathful Weapons to 6d6 Light on vorpal.

And what are the damage dice scaling with now? Fire and Light SP? Because it doesnt say anywhere.

Bjond
11-11-2022, 03:46 AM
Old Wrathful weapons was

A lot of old imbue builds got destroyed. Hmm. I actually don't know of a single one that gained from the imbue change. Most seemed to take a hefty nerf. My own Warpriest builds got destroyed from this change, too, but mine were "paper-only" -- I'd not yet made them real. Imbues look highly exploitable for a rebuild, though.

BTW, my major problem with Warpriest/soul hinges around the bonus damage and how it's too small and tied to favored weapons. Priest doesn't get it's critical bonus, too, unless it takes War Domain and then not until L14 when other melee get theirs between L3~6. And, they ripped out the 2x melee & ranged power scaling from what should be a PHYSICAL dps tree.

Favored weapons should be a thing, but not a locked-in mandatory thing. Let the extra deity feats provide the differentiation rather than heaping on the bonuses everywhere to the point where ONLY favored weapons work.

grudgebear
11-11-2022, 04:31 AM
A lot of old imbue builds got destroyed. Hmm. I actually don't know of a single one that gained from the imbue change. Most seemed to take a hefty nerf. My own Warpriest builds got destroyed from this change, too, but mine were "paper-only" -- I'd not yet made them real.


Melee bards and Melee Arty's gained a huge boost to their damage. It's what made those classes who lean to martial side much more. No there's a good reason to have Sonic or Eletctrit SP. My bard does at level 15 around 25 -60 sonic damage with only three dice and 180 Sonic sp, this will go bonkers when I will have 23+ dice and 800 SP.

Warpriest is rotten even bofore this update. Lack of critical profile expansion, uncompetitive T5's, no options for Charisma (6th core, Stat increase), silly melee attacks. Unlike Warsoul which is way more solid.

I hate that they where given fire instead of light. Warpriest needs to be remade and deva should not shy away from giving warpriest actual power for Melee Clerics. Also they need to be loaded more with dice and they should be in cores not T5's, cause most likely you wanna have raidant servant's t5.

Firebreed
11-11-2022, 05:36 AM
Sounds reasonable.

Bjond
11-11-2022, 07:46 AM
23+ dice and 800 SP

I think you're greatly overestimating both dice and SP unless you're not really a melee or not only a bard, but more of a new SP-focused Imbue/Swash: 4~6 dice from bard, 3 scion for 7~9d6 @ 300~600 SP would be more typical from a slightly updated current melee build. You can likely hit that 23 using extras (fillies, augs, feats, trees), but I suspect you're well past the sacrificing physical for sonic stage; 23d6 @ 800 is ~1400 per hit with 100 DS, but imbues don't crit.

It's great if you're not sacrificing physical DPS, but 23 @ 800 SP makes me think you have little physical to go with it. For comparison, my swashy tank does ~1400 base with 4~6k crits.

BTW, new Warpriest has 7 imbue dice available for L18 v Bard's 6 for L20. Dice-3 and 1xSP versus 2x RP or 2x MP is a nerf, but it's better than the new Swash by 1 die for 10 less AP.

What really hurts is that yesterday's Warpriest was expecting to be a 10d6 imbue build scaled on 2x MP/RP and got the rug yanked out: worse damage with worse & different scaling requiring more cleric levels; ie. you can't even fix it with a TR+20 heart.

Yesterday's Warchanter/Swash had unscaled 1d4 ice -- so very much NOT an imbue build, but U57 suddenly grants it 4~9d6 @ 1xSP. So, yeah, not fair that the planned build got hammered and a random one got buffed.

If your above swash is newly built for U57 you have to compare to a new imbue'ish Warpriest rather than a messed up old one. Cleric does have potentially a bigger imbue than bard if it uses Dark Apostate for extra dice and stays mostly pure to milk the cores. DA also has an evil imbue in T1.

"Favored Weapon Only" is still what kills Warpriest/soul for me, though there's potential in there somewhere. I suspect SWF will still beat TWF; my calcs for an old Swash/Warsoul build with 20d6 @ 2xMP had SWF still winning over TWF.

Coffey
11-11-2022, 02:10 PM
What really hurts is that yesterday's Warpriest was expecting to be a 10d6 imbue build scaled on 2x MP/RP and got the rug yanked out: worse damage with worse & different scaling requiring more cleric levels; ie. you can't even fix it with a TR+20 heart.

This is the crux of it. I thought i was safe from the nerf bat in such an unpopular enhancement tree.

So now i have to adopt a lawful good paladin splash version of the Str THF i was running before or dump Warpriest and go back to Str Tempest splash.

I am nowhere near optimized on any of my characters but i enjoy playing them when i want to. Someone who has built a character based on max MP will be ****ed off.

Seems like same old DDO story. And that is (population) control out of chaos. Get it boiling and give it a stir.

Bagel99
11-11-2022, 02:58 PM
This is the crux of it. I thought i was safe from the nerf bat in such an unpopular enhancement tree.

So now i have to adopt a lawful good paladin splash version of the Str THF i was running before or dump Warpriest and go back to Str Tempest splash.

I am nowhere near optimized on any of my characters but i enjoy playing them when i want to. Someone who has built a character based on max MP will be ****ed off.

Seems like same old DDO story. And that is (population) control out of chaos. Get it boiling and give it a stir.

Pally splash works wonders btw if you want something super simple. 14DA or Clr your choice and 6 Pali or 4 Pali, 2 rog/arti choice of flavor. Sometimes 2 ftr for extra feats etc.
Personal Favorite is the 14DA,3Pali,3Ftr. T5 Warpriest for all the goodies ... even nerfed wrathful, to get the BAB. +6 Str, Armor, take enough to get T3 KOTC for Favored weapon GS and Divine Might and smites, 3 in Stalwart for the +6 strength and some armor and threat goodies. Gains a lot in feat economy if fighter is taken after/ around level 15. Not as much melee power as a pure pali but the core 1 of KOTC fixes the light damage issue.

ALL this good stuff aside we are stuck with a meh tree turned rotten, its shining light being Wrathful weps and yes dice are available, im not saying its all bad but for splits and multi classes 14 War clergy of some kind felt really niche, and frankly fun. Stick build with rog and your cleric. Greatswords with Pali splash, falchions with Wood elf racials. Favored weps are not weak choices, not cookie cutter but not weak and that mechanic is fine. We need a boon back though, maybe Sanctuary being replaced with a core 3 that allows all Simple and martial weps to be considered favored weapons while wielded?

Anyhow not to get sidetracked *grumbles in lacking imbue dice and discontent* it was a valid point though to see Warchanter become viable in its own right yet a tree far weaker than it previously tuned down.