About that self heal penalty in r10

[Zites]

So about that self heal penalty in R10 since thats all I play.


It is a heal and will be effected by reaper, and it's a bit of an odd duck because what it really scales with is your hit points (and amp) as supposed to positive spell power.

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

To whom it may concern, if this fighter love aka (Second Wind) don't work in r10 its useless.

The way I see it ether nerf ("healers" focused builds) to be as bad at doing damage or insta killing as fighter are at healing or continue to watch melee players leave the game.

Institute some real cost for playing range/casters equal to melee cost in REAPER or continue .....................

Finally, when it comes to dodge and hate mechanics, ARMOR-UP 2.0 or everyone that is not a tank will play high dodge, low hate builds.

-Z

[Tyrande]

So about that self heal penalty in R10 since thats all I play.

There are people who exclusively only play heroics, people who only play Elite (i.e. no reaper) and people who exclusively play R1.
Should we be catering to them only? (or too?)




To whom it may concern, if this fighter love aka (Second Wind) don't work in r10 its useless.

If second wind works in R10 to heal that fighter to half the maximum HP, i.e. without any reaper penalty, you are going to see builds splashing 2 levels of fighter including caster EK builds.



The way I see it ether nerf ("healers" focused builds) to be as bad at doing damage or insta killing as fighter are at healing [...]

What did your healer do to you making you say this? If you love healing why not play a healer or TR into one yourselves!?!
Have fun watching the bars and not playing the game.



or continue to watch melee players leave the game.

What does people leaving the game have anything to do with healing?

[Zites]

There are people who exclusively only play heroics, people who only play Elite (i.e. no reaper) and people who exclusively play R1.
Should we be catering to them only? (or too?) Cater to the majority, everyone knows that reaper points help in the Past-lives grind.



If second wind works in R10 to heal that fighter to half the maximum HP, i.e. without any reaper penalty, you are going to see builds splashing 2 levels of fighter including caster EK builds. Put it in core tier 5 and increase its potency in cores 4-5.





What did your healer do to you making you say this? This is a very contemporary argument, asking who hurt you, when faced with facts. Emotions are not part of my reasoning.


If you love healing why not play a healer or TR into one yourselves!?!
Have fun watching the bars and not playing the game. I don't love it, in fact no one does. Why not delete it? or Go back to defined roles for every class not just melee who dont-cant play with out a healer.





What does people leaving the game have anything to do with healing?
People are faced with 2 things when playing melee play with healer that wants to heal or dont play melee. Some choose to not play.

[slarden]

All my melees are getting a big buff with U57 and a I am interested in trying out a few new melee builds and melee/caster hybrid builds with the changes.

Can't you test out this ability on Lam or is the ability not working there yet?

In general I am not a huge fan of all-or-nothing-ness on R10. Healing is debuffed massively while temp hp isn't debuffed at all. Displacement and ghostly are debuffed massively while dodge isn't debuffed at all.

It is what it is and fighters are in a significantly better position with U57 than they were the day before U57.

U57 is a significant buff for many builds and I think they should see where the dust settles before considering additional changes.

As for the ability in question based on Torc's description it is a heal and not something like unyielding sovereignty that bypasses the reaper penalty and plague reaper debuff. I am encouraged they are taking a deeper look at the topic in the future.

It's not useless - still seems good it's just debuffed on R10 like other forms of healing rather than being one of the exceptions.

[droid327]

To whom it may concern, if this fighter love aka (Second Wind) don't work in r10 its useless.


Literally every self-heal works the same way. There is no reason Fighter would need to work different. Self-heals becoming useless in a mode that is specifically designed to negate self-healing is not a problem.




The way I see it ether nerf ("healers" focused builds) to be as bad at doing damage or insta killing as fighter are at healing or continue to watch melee players leave the game.



There's no reason that healing has to be a 1:1 tradeoff with damage. Healers DO give up some damage capacity for their healing ability, compared to a pure no-heal DPS. They dont need to give it ALL up, though.

Besides, as a non-self-healing fighter, dont you want everyone else to have healing for you?



Institute some real cost for playing range/casters equal to melee cost in REAPER


MRR cap. 25% lower HP.

Also they dont balance the game around reaper, and shouldnt ever either

[Zites]

Literally every self-heal works the same way. There is no reason Fighter would need to work different. Self-heals becoming useless in a mode that is specifically designed to negate self-healing is not a problem.

Not literally every self healing works the same way for each class, 2 factors HEAL-AMP and SPELL-POWER put a Fighter at a serious disadvantage and other classes feel this as well but not to the same degree.




There's no reason that healing has to be a 1:1 tradeoff with damage. Healers DO give up some damage capacity for their healing ability, compared to a pure no-heal DPS. They dont need to give it ALL up, though.

By your line of reasoning Fighters should have a greater capacity to absorb incoming damage, closer to the formula used to output damage, from say a Favored Soul for example. While taking into consideration, the range of combat in relation to the regularity of damage a character takes fighting from a distance.


Besides, as a non-self-healing fighter, dont you want everyone else to have healing for you?

Not necessarily, I want have fun playing the game, and this is much harder playing melee than ranged or caster.


MRR cap. 25% lower HP.

Not severe enough to offset the imbalance.


Also they dont balance the game around reaper, and shouldnt ever either

Well let's see there are 13 levels to this game and 10 of them are Reaper, Reaper points help you in n/h/e, and 80% play reaper 90% of the time. In Raids reaper points help you complete them. Let's do what best for the over whelming majority.

[Mindos]

Well let's see there are 13 levels to this game and 10 of them are Reaper, Reaper points help you in n/h/e, and 80% play reaper 90% of the time. In Raids reaper points help you complete them. Let's do what best for the over whelming majority.

Filthy casual difficulty makes 14 levels?

[Tyrande]

Not literally every self healing works the same way for each class, 2 factors HEAL-AMP and SPELL-POWER put a Fighter at a serious disadvantage and other classes feel this as well but not to the same degree.

AFAIK Second Wind does not heal based on positive spell power. Its based on maximum hit points and healing amplification.
Therefore, fighter does not have disadvantage there. Its an advantage.



By your line of reasoning Fighters should have a greater capacity to absorb incoming damage, closer to the formula used to output damage, from say a Favored Soul [...]

You sounded like a favored soul stole all your fighter's kills and never heal your fighter?
If you want damage mitigation use a shield, get into stalwart defender's stance.

With this Second Wind ability, that fighter can absorb more damage... In fact 3 times more because of those extra 6 times Second Wind if my calculations are correct, perhaps even more, if the Heal Amp is great.

What does it matter. That favored soul kill things, your fighter tanked the dungeon by supporting the favored soul so that the dungeon gets completion. Everyone gets loot and XP. What's wrong with this picture?

Also, that favored soul probably quits already because of the latest nerf to the favored soul cores in extra CL damage.



Not necessarily, I want have fun playing the game, and this is much harder playing melee than ranged or caster.

Really, have you played ranged or caster. Have you heard them talk about when firing arrows and bolts and them not doing anything as if the missile was never fired?
Have you heard spells that just bounced off monsters and then nothing happens?

Especially on R10, have you heard people say that they were one-shot by any monster in that dungeon?

Ranged and casters, there are disadvantages.
BTW, most of the achievements I read in R10 completions are from melees. Okay, maybe the casters or ranged that you grouped with were great.

But the casters and ranged that my characters grouped with? Some were great, some were okay, but some were really bad... actually most of them were bad.




Not severe enough to offset the imbalance.

If there are more offsets, people will stop playing those classes.
Say if MRR capped at 50 like monk. -50% hp by playing a caster. Actually, these numbers may not be that far off. Great melees I have seen rocked with 6000 to 8000hp. Great Casters? 2000-3000hp. 50% of 6000 is 3000 and 6000 is the low end. MRR capped at 50 if the character is wearing robe anyways. Are these penalties not enough?




Well let's see there are 13 levels to this game and 10 of them are Reaper, Reaper points help you in n/h/e, and 80% play reaper 90% of the time.[...]

Where did you get the data that 80% of the players play reaper 90% of the time?

DDO Players Audit does not show that.
My characters have been in 200 guilds and have been in role playing casual guilds.

The role playing casual guilds they do not even do Elite difficulty let alone reaper. The hardest they will attempt is hard. They also have restrictions on gear and races, and builds. Then, there is the perma-death crowd. Some never done reaper.

Also, you missed a difficulty: solo/casual.

Actually in reaper difficulty, its just one difficulty. The monsters CR are the same across all reaper difficulties. The difference being the damage scaling factor and the healing factor, the chance of obtaining named loot from chests and the type of reapers in each R. So, in essence, we have 5 difficulties: Casual/Solo, Normal, Hard, Elite and Reaper, with Casual/Solo being easiest and Reaper being hardest. I think it would be extremely unfair to force everyone like the roleplayers and the permadeathers to do reaper when they do not want to.


Also, there is the problem of sustainability. For people like Arazen and Firegoddess who have more than 170 reaper points, every dungeon became easy. Some they may be able to do them walking backwards blindfolded... ok, exaggerating. But do we increase dungeon difficulty for the rest of the folks because of them? Of course not... They are on the extreme right of the bell curve.

[Zites]

filthy casual difficulty makes 14 levels?

lol:)

[droid327]

Not literally every self healing works the same way for each class, 2 factors HEAL-AMP and SPELL-POWER put a Fighter at a serious disadvantage and other classes feel this as well but not to the same degree.



No, not every heal is classified as a Positive heal. 50% of your max health is more than some self-heals can achieve even with maxed out spellpower and amp. The important thing isnt how it scales, its how much it can heal you for. And if you have like 6000 HP at L32, then a 3000 HP heal is among the better non-healer-class heals in the game.

For comparison's sake, 3000 HP is equivalent to a LoH on a 20 Paladin with 200 Hamp and 78 CHA




By your line of reasoning Fighters should have a greater capacity to absorb incoming damage, closer to the formula used to output damage, from say a Favored Soul for example. While taking into consideration, the range of combat in relation to the regularity of damage a character takes fighting from a distance.




You keep trying to make 1:1 correlations everywhere, and I think that's why you're so upset about everything

Mobs have far more HP than we ever can and do far less damage than we do, so you cant compare, e.g., FvS DPS to Fighter TTK





Not severe enough to offset the imbalance.




Other people being penalized more isnt going to make your experience any better. If your fun depends on other people having less fun than you, then sorry, but your fun doesnt matter.

[jskinner937]

Cater to the majority, everyone knows that reaper points help in the Past-lives grind.


Put it in core tier 5 and increase its potency in cores 4-5.




This is a very contemporary argument, asking who hurt you, when faced with facts. Emotions are not part of my reasoning.

I don't love it, in fact no one does. Why not delete it? or Go back to defined roles for every class not just melee who dont-cant play with out a healer.





People are faced with 2 things when playing melee play with healer that wants to heal or dont play melee. Some choose to not play.

The problem with reapers are the trees. R10 at cap was never intended to be the defacto difficulty, however due to the power increase from reaper trees and the extra xp, it has become compulsory and reduces the challenge. Get rid of reaper enhancement trees solves a lot of issue.

[jskinner937]

All my melees are getting a big buff with U57 and a I am interested in trying out a few new melee builds and melee/caster hybrid builds with the changes.

Can't you test out this ability on Lam or is the ability not working there yet?

In general I am not a huge fan of all-or-nothing-ness on R10. Healing is debuffed massively while temp hp isn't debuffed at all. Displacement and ghostly are debuffed massively while dodge isn't debuffed at all.

It is what it is and fighters are in a significantly better position with U57 than they were the day before U57.

U57 is a significant buff for many builds and I think they should see where the dust settles before considering additional changes.

As for the ability in question based on Torc's description it is a heal and not something like unyielding sovereignty that bypasses the reaper penalty and plague reaper debuff. I am encouraged they are taking a deeper look at the topic in the future.

It's not useless - still seems good it's just debuffed on R10 like other forms of healing rather than being one of the exceptions.

Also considering heal scales on spellpower, Second Wind scales with HPs. I think it will be better in the end on a beefy HP build, which fighter should be with the stacking HP buffs.

[Dalsheel]

Also they dont balance the game around reaper, and shouldnt ever either

Sadly, they do balance the game around reaper. Otherwise there wouldn't be reaper points/trees.
Reaper was supposed to be the hardcore difficulty and it ended up being just another power creep... it's sad, but it is what it is... this ship sailed long time ago.

[LavidDynch]

So about that self heal penalty in R10 since thats all I play.



To whom it may concern, if this fighter love aka (Second Wind) don't work in r10 its useless.

The way I see it ether nerf ("healers" focused builds) to be as bad at doing damage or insta killing as fighter are at healing or continue to watch melee players leave the game.

Institute some real cost for playing range/casters equal to melee cost in REAPER or continue .....................

Finally, when it comes to dodge and hate mechanics, ARMOR-UP 2.0 or everyone that is not a tank will play high dodge, low hate builds.

-Z

Well, said.

There are more abilites like the one you mentioned that needs to function in high R´s in order to make melee just somewhat something...

[yfernbottom]

To whom it may concern, if this fighter love aka (Second Wind) don't work in r10 its useless.




I see no reason why fighter self healing should be special in that regard. It needs to be penalized to exactly the same degree as any other form of self healing in reaper. To do otherwise would fly in the face of the design goals of reaper.

It would also create a glaring and insane imbalance among class builds in R10. 90% of r10 players would splash fighter for that one ability. It would be considered mandatory to the degree that a lot of PUGs probably wouldn't even take on a melee that lacks it.

[Alternative]

No self healing works on r10, so that's the rule they introduced.

Now if second wind was working without the same kind of penalty it would be breaking their own rules.

It's bad enough that temp hp already doesn't follow them.

[Strider1963]

No self healing works on r10, so that's the rule they introduced.

Now if second wind was working without the same kind of penalty it would be breaking their own rules.

It's bad enough that temp hp already doesn't follow them.

I agree with this, IMHO there should have never been reaper to begin with. When reaper first came out there was no reaper tree and people were whining about how hard it was so the devs gave in and gave them the tree. Now, people complain reaper 10 is too hard? Really? Its supposed to be hard. Actually, R10 quests really shouldn't be able to be completed, even by the best players. Now, apparently, the devs are supposed to give in to these players yet again and give them another easy button?

[Bjond]

If second wind works in R10 to heal that fighter to half the maximum HP, i.e. without any reaper penalty, you are going to see builds splashing 2 levels of fighter

It's per rest with a low use count. That makes it a pointless gimmick right there. So, your splash can heal ONCE. Great. Now don't get hit again!


All my melees are getting a big buff with U57

One of my builds is staying about the same. Most are getting hammered.



U57 is a significant buff for many builds

I think it's more of a hard nerf to build creativity. It only buffs what I'd call stale retread builds that blindly dump a lot of AP deep into a single tree.


I agree with this, IMHO there should have never been reaper to begin with

If it's there, it has to be considered for balance. I do think that the reaper self-heal penalty wasn't even a notion half-warmed in an easy-bake oven. That's the one part I think has to be removed. There wouldn't even need to be any rebalancing -- just enable full self-heal. The only builds it would help are the ones that take forever to whittle the packs down. The groups that one-round R10 packs wouldn't be affected, since they're already taking very little to no damage.

[helpfulguy1234]

I'd like to see the penalty at r1 reduced, but then the increase per skull increased to that it is roughly the same at r10.
Start at -10% at r1, and them incrementr per skull so the r10 penalty is about the same.

[Zites]

I see no reason why fighter self healing should be special in that regard. It needs to be penalized to exactly the same degree as any other form of self healing in reaper. To do otherwise would fly in the face of the design goals of reaper.
Second Wind is penalized to a greater degree on Lam so its doesn't work as well as other form of self healing in reaper.

Reaper as it stands flys in the face of design goals. 1. The imbalance between armor types which requires you to play high dodge+low threat generation build, or don't play reaper.

2. The imbalance between classes to survive, be it through combat range, self heal, or DPS AOE output.



It would also create a glaring and insane imbalance among class builds in R10. 90% of r10 players would splash fighter for that one ability. It would be considered mandatory to the degree that a lot of PUGs probably wouldn't even take on a melee that lacks it.

NO put it in tier 5 and increase its potency in the cores 4,5,6, locking out splashes to the full monty.

[slarden]

Second Wind is penalized to a greater degree on Lam so its doesn't work as well as other form of self healing in reaper.

I was not aware of this and it certainly doesn't make much sense to me, what additional penalty is applied to second wind in reaper mode?


One of my builds is staying about the same. Most are getting hammered.

I think it's more of a hard nerf to build creativity. It only buffs what I'd call stale retread builds that blindly dump a lot of AP deep into a single tree.

Cleric and Fvs were directly nerfed. This was intended. It's meant to primarily be a melee buff.

It's definitely theoretically possible for a melee to lose hp with U57, but can you provide details of which builds are losing hp? I mean the hp pass is mostly requiring tier 5 of a melee a tree to get the full 25% bonus, but if you do this epic destinies remain unchanged, non-caster class trees get the same 25% hp buff that epic defensive fighting provided without the drawbacks and base hp is doubling with melee feats.

At least at first glance it seems any paladin/fighter tank, fighter dps, paladin dps, rogue melee, barbarian is going up.

EK and bard melees might be more situational, but those trees also support ranged so it's a more complicated proposition.

[LilacDragon6]

Just remove the penalty when not in combat. Problems more or less solved.

[slarden]

I'd like to see the penalty at r1 reduced, but then the increase per skull increased to that it is roughly the same at r10.
Start at -10% at r1, and them incrementr per skull so the r10 penalty is about the same.

I think the a lower curve up to R4 which is basically solo/intro skull levels and increasing more sharply after that, but I would personally prefer the self-heal penalty to be maxed at 85% even on R10. I don't really solo R10 - this is from the perspective of the healer getting a little relief by players being able to heal themselves a little better and the healer being able to heal themselves a bit better.

It's not something I feel so strongly about I would spend time arguing - I just think it would be an improvement.

[Zites]

I was not aware of this and it certainly doesn't make much sense to me, what additional penalty is applied to second wind in reaper mode?

Comparatively in its application and effectiveness, its not as strong as lay on hands and only works on self making it non party friendly.

More importantly when held up to Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, Pale Master, and their ability to stack positive and negative spell power coupled with their heal amp its falls way behind especially in Reaper.

So its only practical application is for new players when they grind out there Fighter past lives on n/h/e and realize how much Fighter sucks than TR into Ranged or Caster gods.

So why no Imbue for Fighters???

Edit to add= Not to mention how much this will make Fighter the new HARDCORE god, in hardcore only, which I don't play. Making it a complete wast of time when they have to nerf it because everyone will be playing fighter in hardcore and casters ranged players will complain massively.

[donblas]

Well let's see there are 13 levels to this game and 10 of them are Reaper, Reaper points help you in n/h/e, and 80% play reaper 90% of the time.

I'd be interested in your source for this statistic.

100% of the people I play with play reaper 0% of the time.

[LilacDragon6]

100% of the people I play with play reaper 0% of the time.

Then why are you even posting in this thread? if you don't reaper why do you care about the mechanics at all?

[vryxnr]

Then why are you even posting in this thread? if you don't reaper why do you care about the mechanics at all?

I'm not the person you are asking, but I can guess. Curiosity? Seeing what others are saying because you care about the game as a whole? Replying to a quoted statistic that does not match one's own experience?

It's also been shown time and time again that what happens in reaper does influence non reaper despite the devs saying they do not balance around reaper. Actions speak louder than words, and as history has shown, even non-reaper players need to care about what happens in reaper.

(they also said the people they play with, which does not necessarily mean themselves as well. I solo reaper, but some of my friends cannot and would rather do elite instead, and that is okay).

[slarden]

Comparatively in its application and effectiveness, its not as strong as lay on hands and only works on self making it non party friendly.

More importantly when held up to Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, Pale Master, and their ability to stack positive and negative spell power coupled with their heal amp its falls way behind especially in Reaper.

So its only practical application is for new players when they grind out there Fighter past lives on n/h/e and realize how much Fighter sucks than TR into Ranged or Caster gods.

So why no Imbue for Fighters???

Edit to add= Not to mention how much this will make Fighter the new HARDCORE god, in hardcore only, which I don't play. Making it a complete wast of time when they have to nerf it because everyone will be playing fighter in hardcore and casters ranged players will complain massively.

Lay on hands on myself isn't going to save me in most R10 emergencies, but unyielding sovereignty will as it bypasses the reaper penalties and plague reaper debuffs.

I don't think second wind needs to match the functionality of lay on hands or healing classes, but half your hp x healing amp isn't a small #. I didn't test it on Lam, but if the #s were too low you should share what you were seeing on elite in case there is some bug.

[Zites]

Lay on hands on myself isn't going to save me in most R10 emergencies, but unyielding sovereignty will as it bypasses the reaper penalties and plague reaper debuffs.

Thus, the ineffectiveness of lay on hands and how much more so Second Wind.

Not to mention and I see you didn't mention Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, Pale Master, and their ability to stack positive and negative spell power coupled with their heal amp and how far behind Second Wind is in Reaper, Hence no true love for FIGHTER.

No Imbue.

No defensive bump.

No balancing of ranged and caster dominance over melee in reaper.

Just a bait-and-switch.



I don't think second wind needs to match the functionality of lay on hands or healing classes, but half your hp x healing amp isn't a small #. I didn't test it on Lam, but if the #s were too low you should share what you were seeing on elite in case there is some bug.

Often when we converse I find you taking the discussion in a different direction I don't play elite nor does the majority out side of raids.

There is no bug it's not working, meaning just as they intended it to not work.

In a attempt to not talk passed each other, riddle me this, how will this effect HARDCORE? and how long till they nerf it making it a complete wast of time?

[droid327]

Imbues are going to be equally pointless in high reaper because of how resists are calculated, so that's not really a huge benefit for non fighter

And yeah if you want pure fighter to have self healing equal to a pure healer, without any kind of tradeoff or penalty, you're tilting at a windmill, that's an objectively unfair request.

[Tyrande]

Thus, the ineffectiveness of lay on hands and how much more so Second Wind.

Not to mention and I see you didn't mention Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, Pale Master, and their ability to stack positive and negative spell
power coupled with their heal amp and how far behind Second Wind is in Reaper, Hence no true love for FIGHTER.

Source? Please point me to the ability to stack BOTH positive and negative spell power for healing? I think if they come from different people and the target is an undead, sure. As far as single self healing is concerned, I think it takes the highest spell power, but feel free to correct me.

Also that Favored Soul and Cleric are getting the hit points cut in less than half.
Stout of Heart was giving 10hp per level. On Lammania its only 4hp per level.
Animal domain was giving 10hp per level. On Lammania its only getting 4hp per level.
There's your fighter advantage.



No Imbue.

No defensive bump.

No balancing of ranged and caster dominance over melee in reaper.

Just a bait-and-switch.

You're asking for the best hit points, best healing, best defense, best absorption for that one class?
Don't you think its asking too much?

BTW, if the character is tanking, usually as a DPS we do not expect the tank to have any kills. Imbue on the tank does not make sense unless it helps in tanking.

As for defensive bumps, do you mean more AC? more PRR? more MRR? less damage taken as in absorption?
Some trees do have those.

I think the dev is trying to avoid the scenario where the player can have cake and eat it too scenario.
Note that Second Wind is also usable while being crowd control whereas a FvS or Cleric being frozen, turned to stone, dazed, etc., can't.

If your fighter takes 6 levels of paladin/cleric/fvS your fighter also can have Unyeilding Sovereignty, which heals to full while in R10.


[...]
There is no bug it's not working, meaning just as they intended it to not work.

In a attempt to not talk passed each other, riddle me this, how will this effect HARDCORE? and how long till they nerf it making it a complete wast of time?

Its intention is not for the fighter to be able to solo R10, that I figured.

As for the effectiveness of Hardcore, it will be pretty effective. Once you hear people getting maximum favors and 5k favors first and level 20 first, I believe it will get nerfed to the ground.

There are already current nerfs of FvS and future nerfs of cleric based on Hardcore healing and popularity.

[slarden]

Thus, the ineffectiveness of lay on hands and how much more so Second Wind.

Not to mention and I see you didn't mention Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, Pale Master, and their ability to stack positive and negative spell power coupled with their heal amp and how far behind Second Wind is in Reaper, Hence no true love for FIGHTER.

No Imbue.

No defensive bump.

No balancing of ranged and caster dominance over melee in reaper.

Just a bait-and-switch.

Often when we converse I find you taking the discussion in a different direction I don't play elite nor does the majority out side of raids.

There is no bug it's not working, meaning just as they intended it to not work.

In a attempt to not talk passed each other, riddle me this, how will this effect HARDCORE? and how long till they nerf it making it a complete wast of time?

I did not intend to take the discussion in a different direction, but to get a baseline # elite tells you what the # is at 100% so I always test self-healing and other #s there first so I know what my baseline # is. Non-crits on my wizard's reconstruct are like 120 in R10 and I have massive investment in spellpower - enhancements, ED, gear, past lifes. It might save me against a really small dot, but not much.

I am not currently playing a fighter, but I am playing an assassin which has no self-healing option at all which seems decidedly worse than second wind. I am happy with my ability to contribute in a party and fine with my role being different. I guess because I play so many different builds and play styles I have a different viewpoint - I play whatever the party needs and am always able to find a way to contribute regardless of playstyle.

I am really confused about the comparison between a cleric's healing and a fighters. I mean wouldn't anyone playing this game or familiar with D&D expect clerics to have better healing?

From my perspective melees are getting a big bump in hp and losing all the annoying things that came with EDF. I am looking forward to the bump on my assassin and am really interested in reviving my barbarian again. When the dust settles I assume the devs will do more if it's needed.

I can't even begin to describe the level of annoyance when I tried to raise, heal or restore with my assassin only to realize I forgot to turn off EDF which costs me a bunch of hp. What a massive improvement it is to get the hp without barriers making harder to help out teammates.

[Zites]

Imbues are going to be equally pointless in high reaper because of how resists are calculated, so that's not really a huge benefit for non fighter
Its a small to midland benefit bump for non fighter.


And yeah if you want pure fighter to have self healing equal to a pure healer, without any kind of tradeoff or penalty, you're tilting at a windmill, that's an objectively unfair request.

Yep about as fair as stand today looking at it for its current orientation primarily from a melee's perspective.

Look there are many ways to skin a cat and they go from wrong to right. I'm not offering any solutions because they resent it if they dnt come up with it themselves.

Just pointing out the obvious,

1. The cost for playing range/casters as apposed to melee in REAPER.

2. Dodge and hate mechanics in relation to armor types and classes in REAPER.

3. Healers focused builds doing damage or insta killing and its inequities to fighter at healing and damage.

[slarden]

. Healers focused builds doing damage or insta killing and its inequities to fighter at healing and damage.

They previously nerfed caster fvs/clerics dps and now they are nerfing hp. They are basically taking away the hp from fvs/animal domain, but then giving it back if you have melee feats. In other words it's a loss for casting divines and probably about break-even for melee divines.

So I think they are trying to address it. Whether or not it's fully addressed I don't have a clue, but I am sure we will hear complaints from divines when U57 hits if history is any indication. I spent considerable time playing a nuking fvs, but am not playing it currently. I loved favored soul, but I didn't like having to respec for different roles and alot of rigid expectations for how healers should be spec'd from raid leaders. Now I just keep a 17fvs/3paladin deep alt around that is spec'd for healing and off-tanking. Seems every raid leader is ok with that build although I sometimes get flack about not having enough sp even though I haven't yet run out.



1. The cost for playing range/casters as apposed to melee in REAPER.

2. Dodge and hate mechanics in relation to armor types and classes in REAPER.

3. Healers focused builds doing damage or insta killing and its inequities to fighter at healing and damage.

My main beef with playing melee on my assassin is some cleave or aoe force attack mechanics seem unfairly punishing to melee. If there is a tank with aggro I shouldn't get one shot by a cleave with no tell. Fortunately it's not too prevalent, but I consider that bad design.

I agree dodge is too good relative to other things in high R, but some people might have an aneurysm if SSG tries to change it.

As far as damage, some aoe casting damage might need to be looked at in terms of #s or cooldown. Or possibly even reaper penalty for dps which was softened a few years ago.

Your fighter should be doing significantly better single-target damage if it's spec'd right - and I am sure it is.

[axel15810]

I've gotta disagree with Torc. I play anything from R6-R10 normally and I wouldn't want to see the reaper self heal penalty lessened at all. It's good for grouping and support roles. I'm surprised at Torc's comment there - I don't at all think it's too harsh. That penalty is one of the features that gives reaper its challenge and encourages teamwork. Without it, how do you challenge players in a feasible and interesting way? Or will it necessitate a lot of oneshot mechanics? (not enjoyable game design). DDO overall has absurdly good self-healing which is why the penalty was needed in the first place. Currently R10 endgame stuff (Saltmarsh, Dread, etc.) is not even that unreachable, I see regular PUGS for it. Lessening self healing is just not needed at all. I get that I also do play a healer build and so will be biased as I want to see support playstyles supported. I vividly remember the full on BYOH era and I vastly prefer the current experience.

[Zites]

I get that I also do play a healer build and so will be biased as I want to see support playstyles supported. I vividly remember the full on BYOH era and I vastly prefer the current experience.

Yea I can see why you would as battle cleric's dps and healing is lacking.


I've gotta disagree with Torc. I play anything from R6-R10 normally and I wouldn't want to see the reaper self heal penalty lessened at all. It's good for grouping and support roles.

Yea may be hard to find a r10 group unless one builds for a more dedicated healer role.


I'm surprised at Torc's comment there - I don't at all think it's too harsh. That penalty is one of the features that gives reaper its challenge and encourages teamwork.

Team work is good and a balance must be struck here. They can do this many ways but as it stands, it is harsh for actual melee DPS builds that don't heal. Although is a battle cleric an adequate melee dps or a healer? Maybe R10 should be harsher for non-specializes builds.


Or will it necessitate a lot of oneshot mechanics? (not enjoyable game design).

Seems a bit of a stretch to think this would fix anything.


DDO overall has absurdly good self-healing which is why the penalty was needed in the first place.

Not for the Majority of actual DPS melee builds in R6-10.


Currently R10 endgame stuff (Saltmarsh, Dread, etc.) is not even that unreachable, I see regular PUGS for it.

Its been my experience that these form, from 75% known players that can handle r10 or they fall apart real fast.


Lessening self healing is just not needed at all.

They can address it in many ways but this is certainly the situation=

1. The cost for playing range/casters as apposed to melee in REAPER.

2. Dodge and hate mechanics in relation to armor types and classes in REAPER.

3. Healers focused builds doing damage or insta killing and its inequities to fighter at healing and damage.

[axel15810]

Yea I can see why you would as battle cleric's dps and healing is lacking.

Na, healing isn't lacking at all. Not that hard to gear as a healer. T5 radiant servant + renewal + high positive spellpower + metas + quickened mass cures is all I need for any situation. The only situation I could imagine really needing more is if I were to heal mid/high skull raids then you probably should go full on healbot turtle shield user just for the survivability needed but I don't run raids above R1 much ever.



Yea may be hard to find a r10 group unless one builds for a more dedicated healer role.

Na, never been for me though I usually run R6 as of late, not R8-R10 that often. Usually start my own groups though so I don't know really. Could vary by server. I haven't found people to be picky about their healers though.



Team work is good and a balance must be struck here. They can do this many ways but as it stands, it is harsh for actual melee DPS builds that don't heal. Although is a battle cleric an adequate melee dps or a healer? Maybe R10 should be harsher for non-specializes builds.

Battle cleric definitely isn't a very meta or optimal build and struggles more than most in high skulls. They're hard for me but I feel like I can contribute if I'm geared to the teeth without being a piker. Definitely adequate in the healing department so can healbot even if nothing else.



Seems a bit of a stretch to think this would fix anything.

Question here is more a game design one. How do devs adequately challenge players if the self-heal penalty was eliminated? Reaper will become far easier if it is removed. And many would argue it's already too easy. How do they compensate for the massive drop in challenge that eliminating the self-heal penalty would bring?


Not for the Majority of actual DPS melee builds in R6-10.

Sure, but I was referring to self-healing generally. Melee builds should have other advantages to compensate for lack of self-healing rather than just giving every class great self-healing in reaper. It's a more interesting game design approach - there's more diversity and team play. And if that's not being achieved (which many would say isn't and melees are lagging behind in reaper) then that's a whole different discussion of how to make that happen. But it should happen. IMO the all out melee DPS builds should be on paper the best DPS in the game since they have the least amount of utility.


Its been my experience that these form, from 75% known players that can handle r10 or they fall apart real fast.

It's definitely hard, most can't run it. I struggle a lot there. Not saying it's not hard, but it's gotten easier over time and R10 pugs aren't rare.



They can address it in many ways but this is certainly the situation

1. The cost for playing range/casters as apposed to melee in REAPER.

2. Dodge and hate mechanics in relation to armor types and classes in REAPER.

3. Healers focused builds doing damage or insta killing and its inequities to fighter at healing and damage.

1) is a hard challenge for sure. Monster design rewarding melee more IMO is probably the best way to balance melee in reaper going forward. 2) Not quite sure what issue you're referring to exactly. 3) Well hopefully design generally gives those with less self-healing such as fighters proper recompense in other areas to compensate for lack of utility - higher DPS, HP, better tactics, etc. to still encourage group play. The game should make sure that the DPS fighter is worth having a healer to heal them in reaper.

[Drachmoril]

So about that self heal penalty in R10 since thats all I play.



To whom it may concern, if this fighter love aka (Second Wind) don't work in r10 its useless.

The way I see it ether nerf ("healers" focused builds) to be as bad at doing damage or insta killing as fighter are at healing or continue to watch melee players leave the game.

Institute some real cost for playing range/casters equal to melee cost in REAPER or continue .....................

Finally, when it comes to dodge and hate mechanics, ARMOR-UP 2.0 or everyone that is not a tank will play high dodge, low hate builds.

-Z

Ok but let's be real - if someone is playing melee at R10, as much as they want to, they aren't going to leave the game due to a self-healing change.

Source: someone who's "quit" DDO before!

[LavidDynch]

Ok but let's be real - if someone is playing melee at R10, as much as they want to, they aren't going to leave the game due to a self-healing change.

Source: someone who's "quit" DDO before!

"What we´ve got here is failure to communicate..."

You make no sense. Why would a melee quit, if he gets buffed? Or do you mean that they don´t quit and just rolls something like ranged/casters -- then you are 100% correct. Will always be outliers in an MMO; that guy who is constantly logged in at the market bank, that dude who has never TR´d or changed gear since 2007 etc...

[Tilomere]

Once you all realize you are really all just asking for the same thing, it will make sense. You are all just asking to make it an all-healing penalty, and leave it as-is. :)

A couple melee who can dodge tank and/or undying vangaurd temp hp tank can deal with red names, CC/instakills should deal with everything else in a dungeon. Reaper is meant to be played strategically, with CC, but it is too easy to the point a pure 20 dex rogue assassin can already tank R10. That's why SSG wanted to nerf dodge.

There is no reason to avoid increasing the regular healing penalty up to the self-healing penalty so they are the same. Having groups have easier rules they play under than solo players doesn't promote teamwork and strategic play, it promotes grouping and zerging.

This way everyone is happy. There is no longer a self-healing penalty punishing soloing, so soloist are happy. Reaper retains and even gains difficulty, so hardcore players are happy. At 96% healing penalty, healing and preventing damage will then become more of a group responsibility, promoting teamwork, so teamwork promoters will be happy. Plus dedicated healers will be prized, since it will take serious horsepower to heal through a 96% R10 barrier, so healers will have something to do, so they will be happy. Everyone is a winner!

https://i.postimg.cc/13Xc56zS/6yqn4r.jpg

R6 at 80% is already reasonably solod on any melee, R7 at 84% is reasonably solod on any self-healing focused melee, and R8-9 at 88-92% is already reasonably solod on casters. That leaves 96% penalty for grouping in R10.

If a group can't clear a dungeon under the same conditions that someone can solo it, they certainly don't deserve to earn reaper rewards for "working together." At best a participation prize, but certainly not reaper xp.

[Bjond]

96% penalty for grouping in R10.

A number of years ago I mentioned to an MMO friend that a game with ZERO in-combat healing would be really interesting as a close mirror to reality; in RL, at best you're going to get the equivalent of a "stop dying" (subject to available skill/tech) + ship to medic for real healing. Heal to full and keep fighting isn't even a thing in the overwhelming majority of epic fantasy or sci-fi.

Anyway, it actually happened about a year after my comment: GW2 released with pretty much zero in-combat healing or at least no dedicated healers. I had lots of fun playing it. In order to adapt that model to DDO, though, there would need to be one change: ultra-fast out-of-combat healing.

I'm OK with zero heals during high reaper quest fights, but not OK with hammering heal spells to cure 10hp a pop for 20m afterwards. I'd expect every single character to heal to full in 3s for zero resource cost when out of combat; ie. HP would represent something closer to stamina than outright injury.

[Zites]

Once you all realize you are really all just asking for the same thing, it will make sense. You are all just asking to make it an all-healing penalty, and leave it as-is. :)

A couple melee who can dodge tank and/or undying vangaurd temp hp tank can deal with red names, CC/instakills should deal with everything else in a dungeon. Reaper is meant to be played strategically, with CC, but it is too easy to the point a pure 20 dex rogue assassin can already tank R10. That's why SSG wanted to nerf dodge.

There is no reason not to avoid increasing the regular healing penalty up to the self-healing penalty so they are the same. Having groups have easier rules they play under than solo players doesn't promote teamwork and strategic play, it promotes grouping and zerging.

This way everyone is happy. There is no longer a self-healing penalty punishing soloing, so soloist are happy. Reaper retains and even gains difficulty, so hardcore players are happy. At 96% healing penalty, healing and preventing damage will then become more of a group responsibility, promoting teamwork, so teamwork promoters will be happy. Plus dedicated healers will be prized, since it will take serious horsepower to heal through a 96% R10 barrier, so healers will have something to do, so they will be happy. Everyone is a winner!

https://i.postimg.cc/13Xc56zS/6yqn4r.jpg

R6 at 80% is already reasonably solod on any melee, R7 at 84% is reasonably solod on any self-healing focused melee, and R8-9 at 88-92% is already reasonably solod on casters. That leaves 96% penalty for grouping in R10.

If a group can't clear a dungeon under the same conditions that someone can solo it, they certainly don't deserve to earn reaper rewards for "working together." At best a participation prize, but certainly not reaper xp.

Or
1. Nerf dodge 50%
2. Create new Reapers specifically to haunt caster/ranged players and give them nightmares. I'm sure with all your creativity you could come up with some good new Reapers.
3. Remove 50% of spell balls replace with heal balls.

[adamkatt]

LOL @ the Oprah pic.....

[Tilomere]

I'm OK with zero heals during high reaper quest fights, but not OK with hammering heal spells to cure 10hp a pop for 20m afterwards.

Radiant servant healer cleric casts heal at level 24 = 240 base, x8 (1200 spell power (600 effective + 100 empower)) x2 (crit/multiplier) * .04% (R10 proposed penalty) * 5 (400 AMP) = 768 point heal

Plus HoT auras, + chain heal/cures + unyielding +olladra/2nd unyielding/Rejuv of Dawn.

A single RS cleric could keep a tank and nearby melees up in R10 dungeons even through a 96% healing penalty.

It's not 10 a pop, it is 7-800.

Alchemist heal has 100% spell power scaling and metas, so double that, but less aura/other support. FvS matches cleric, but with healing wall instead of aura.

The real truth is people say they want to promote teamwork, or support healers, but really they just want to promote group zerging. That's why they want to only penalize solo players when the mathematics fully support penalizing everyone equally at the current solo penalty levels.

[Eantarus]

As covered in the title to this thread, this penalty is only to "self" healing.

So why not play R10 according to the way the devs intended? Like WoW with tank/dps/healer?

[slarden]

The real truth is people say they want to promote teamwork, or support healers, but really they just want to promote group zerging. That's why they want to only penalize solo players when the mathematics fully support penalizing everyone equally at the current solo penalty levels.

I partially agree, the self-healing penalty was promoted and pushed by raiding guilds that don't solo, pug or short-man as much as the overall population. So yes I do agree they were promoting a concept that would hurt them less than others. However, I do think there is some merit to the concept of the penalty applying to self only.

I think the idea of teamwork is great for R10, but the reality is there are some really high spikes in damage - most notably horrid wilting which flat-out kills alot of people that aren't immune (PMs). Sometimes the reapers spawn behind you and throw out a horrid wilting before you even know they are there. In R10 Slaver Lord III We zoned in to the end fight and were all dead without even having a chance to move - checking combat log everyone was killed by horrid wilting including the tank who hadn't respec'd after the ED changes and losing the draconic twist (don't fail fort saves on a 1) - that would be me - rolled a 1 and died before I even zoned in - hadn't yet respec'd to take epic fort saves after losing the twist. We were able to jibbers, recover and complete, but it's the kind of weird stuff you run into in R10s. Sometimes half the party is dead and you are effectively short-manning to at least complete the current battle.

Some builds are not very good at cross-healing and I can see a global healing penalty reducing build diversity or putting more emphasis on builds that can cross-heal effectively despite the penalty.

[Tilomere]

I think the idea of teamwork is great for R10, but the reality is there are some really high spikes in damage - most notably horrid wilting which flat-out kills alot of people that aren't immune (PMs).

If one is dying to spells one hasn't mastered one or more game mechanics of spell absorb rotation combined with CC/instant killing dangerous casters first, positioning, movement, immunities, and evasion to bounce/avoid/prevent every single spell that isn't bugged to bypass absorb.

In such a case of a person not mastering game mechanics, they should die in R10. Evasion/saves/immunities/Spell absorb rotation on a caster looks like this (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/529855-Basic-Caster-Druid), on a melee it looks like this (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/531863-Assassin-framework). I used to have it on my ranged build as well, but SSG nerfed dark imbuement so I took it down.

[Bjond]

why not play R10 according to the way the devs intended? Like WoW with tank/dps/healer?

Because Trinity play is not D&D. In real D&D, there are no "tanks". Instead, all melee are "front line" and keep things off the squishies by body-blocking. There's no assumption that high mitigation requires heavy armor and a shield. There's no taunt effect to force things to attack you.

By trying to enforce trinity play and heavy armor tanking, they're taking DDO quite a ways off from it's D&D roots.


teamwork is great for R10, but the reality is there are some really high spikes in damage - most notably horrid wilting which flat-out kills

The team play in DDO typically only exists in two places: upper reaper and raiding. Everything else, IMHO, is just boring grind to prepare for or reach those two spots.

BTW, Wilting Vengeance is funny. The damage is so high that it one-shots my tanks (and not just on a "1"), which makes no-fail-on-one for Fortitude rather pointless. Fortunately, it's ultra-rare.

It's rarity is why I don't build for it. I'll typically die to wilting maybe once every other epic life and only when questing. Worst case, a "key" char death + wipe in a quest is an inconvenience (6 peeps @ 10m spent = 1H lost). A key death + wipe in a raid truly hurts (12 @ 20~40m = 4~8H wasted), but I don't raid @ R6+.

[Zretch]

If one is dying to spells one hasn't mastered one or more game mechanics of spell absorb rotation combined with CC/instant killing dangerous casters first, positioning, movement, immunities, and evasion to bounce/avoid/prevent every single spell that isn't bugged to bypass absorb.

In such a case of a person not mastering game mechanics, they should die in R10. Evasion/saves/immunities/Spell absorb rotation on a caster looks like this (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/529855-Basic-Caster-Druid), on a melee it looks like this (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/531863-Assassin-framework). I used to have it on my ranged build as well, but SSG nerfed dark imbuement so I took it down.

Spell absorb is just no fail dodge and should have been nerfed when dodge was nerfed. Immortality gear is a bad game mechanic, just like immunity on mobs is a bad game mechanic leading to inane stuff like immunity breaking skills that only some classes receive or spell absorb items that have no value other than to dodge mechanics that were meant to kill you for playing as sloppy as you are.