What is the max ranged attack speed bonus for throwers right now?

[Abilbo]

Tried consulting the wiki, but the pages are way out of date, and very confusing in the layout.

With 0 gear on, and no points in enhancements or destiny's, my character has 21% Ranged attack speed bonus. Equipping gear and training destiny and enhancements brings it up to a 36%. If I add points into shiradi and take whirling writs, its brings it up by 0.

Just wondering if 36% is the actual cap, or if I am bugged in someway.

[Bjond]

Rate-of-Fire for both bow and thrown is hard-capped at 86/m. There is more haste in game than you need to reach that cap. You can't skip whirling wrists, but iirc, whirling + haste = 86/m. Pre-squish, you didn't even need haste, whirl+bab21+ was enough.

It's similar for bows from what I recall, with the extra alacrity on some bows being pointless.

[Abilbo]

Rate-of-Fire for both bow and thrown is hard-capped at 86/m.

Do you mean that the most ammount of projectiles you can throw is 86 or that when I look at my character sheet, I should see a Ranged Attack Speed boost of 86, because currently, my thrower can't break 36%

[Tyrande]

Rate-of-Fire for both bow and thrown is hard-capped at 86/m. There is more haste in game than you need to reach that cap. You can't skip whirling wrists, but iirc, whirling + haste = 86/m. Pre-squish, you didn't even need haste, whirl+bab21+ was enough.

It's similar for bows from what I recall, with the extra alacrity on some bows being pointless.

AFAIK, haste => 22% ranged alacrity.

Whirling wrists = 30% ranged throwing alacrity.

That two along adds up to 52%... So its hard capped at 86 missiles per minute. Is that equal to 36% alacrity capped?

Sounds like there is no point in running a throwing build with Horizon Walker here.

[Abilbo]

AFAIK, haste => 22% ranged alacrity.

Whirling wrists = 30% ranged throwing alacrity.

That two along adds up to 52%... So its hard capped at 86 missiles per minute. Is that equal to 36% alacrity capped?

Sounds like there is no point in running a throwing build with Horizon Walker here.

I am currently throwing around 42 daggers every 30 seconds. If 86 is hard cap then that seems about right. It's just strange that my character only shows a 36% bonus to ranged attack speed.

[Wahnsinnig]

I am currently throwing around 42 daggers every 30 seconds. If 86 is hard cap then that seems about right. It's just strange that my character only shows a 36% bonus to ranged attack speed.

Attacks per minute and bonus to ranged attack speed is not the same thing. 36% bonus gives about 86 attacks per minute.

What you are doing is like looking at tire revolutions per hour hour as a speed measurement for cars without realizing different cars have different tires.

[Brac]

Attacks per minute and bonus to ranged attack speed is not the same thing. 36% bonus gives about 86 attacks per minute.

What you are doing is like looking at tire revolutions per hour hour as a speed measurement for cars without realizing different cars have different tires.

What?!? They are wondering if 36% is the cap. It is a yes or no question. Your car analogy adds nothing.

[Wahnsinnig]

What?!? They are wondering if 36% is the cap. It is a yes or no question. Your car analogy adds nothing.

Read the post I replied to and then read my reply again.

[Yamani]

Rate-of-Fire for both bow and thrown is hard-capped at 86/m. There is more haste in game than you need to reach that cap. You can't skip whirling wrists, but iirc, whirling + haste = 86/m. Pre-squish, you didn't even need haste, whirl+bab21+ was enough.

It's similar for bows from what I recall, with the extra alacrity on some bows being pointless.


Bows are not hard-capped at 86...
After the bow update its more like this:

MS= Manyshot
Base: ~77/min
Base+2 haste: ~93/min (about 8 extra per haste)
Base + 5 MS: ~86/min (guessing this is what you're looking at)
Base + 10 MS: ~94/min. This one can be a bit off due to lag/abilities not firing correctly. But to get 10 MS in a minute you need a starting point of 6 MS. the 11th would regen at the last second so didn't count it.
Base + 2 Haste + 5 MS: ~100/min
Base + 2 Haste + 10 MS: ~106/min. Variable here can be higher/lower due to using MS under haste boost or not. Ideally you want to use both together.

All were done with 20% alacrity bow, and 25 BAB.

Also correcting another post here: Haste spell only gives 15% alacrity, same for blinding speed. You can however get the 22% again in lord of blades with the power of the forge buff.

As for throwers, they are still under the hard cap for now. Do believe they've mentioned elsewhere about eventually updating thrower to similar model as bows.

[Coffey]

Bows are not hard-capped at 86...
After the bow update its more like this:

MS= Manyshot
Base: ~77/min
Base+2 haste: ~93/min (about 8 extra per haste)
Base + 5 MS: ~86/min (guessing this is what you're looking at)
Base + 10 MS: ~94/min. This one can be a bit off due to lag/abilities not firing correctly. But to get 10 MS in a minute you need a starting point of 6 MS. the 11th would regen at the last second so didn't count it.
Base + 2 Haste + 5 MS: ~100/min
Base + 2 Haste + 10 MS: ~106/min. Variable here can be higher/lower due to using MS under haste boost or not. Ideally you want to use both together.

All were done with 20% alacrity bow, and 25 BAB.


I remembered this statement:

To clarify: Manyshot's animation is intended to fire 3 arrows in 1.16x the amount of time a standard attack takes to fire 1 arrow, scaling with attack speed. (It should be slightly longer than a standard attack, but nowhere near twice as long as a standard attack).

That said, it's definitely doing that while moving, but it looks like the standing-still version may not be scaling properly with attack speed - We'll take a look at that.

I dont know if there were any changes made to MS or not since then. The animation does seem clunky (and takes longer than 1.16x normal fire rate) but it is far better than No Holds Barred delay! So idk if the standing attack animation has been addressed or not.


Rate-of-Fire for both bow and thrown is hard-capped at 86/m. There is more haste in game than you need to reach that cap. You can't skip whirling wrists, but iirc, whirling + haste = 86/m. Pre-squish, you didn't even need haste, whirl+bab21+ was enough.

It's similar for bows from what I recall, with the extra alacrity on some bows being pointless.

Edit: I remembered wrong. Rapid Shot was not reduced from 20% to 10%.

Need a thrower to test this out.

[Coffey]

Tried consulting the wiki, but the pages are way out of date, and very confusing in the layout.

With 0 gear on, and no points in enhancements or destiny's, my character has 21% Ranged attack speed bonus. Equipping gear and training destiny and enhancements brings it up to a 36%. If I add points into shiradi and take whirling writs, its brings it up by 0.

Just wondering if 36% is the actual cap, or if I am bugged in someway.

Rapid Shot adds 21% Ranged Att Speed to the Character page

Blnding Speed 15% gives 36% on both the Character page and the "+" tab on right side of the Character page
Whirling Wrists:
Tier 1 0% Throwing Att Speed under the "+" tab 36%
Tier 2 10% Throwing Att Speed under the "+" tab 46%
Tier 3 20% Throwing Att Speed under the "+" tab 56%

Vistani Capstone 5% Throwing Att Speed under the "+" tab 61%

[Bjond]

Bows are not hard-capped at 86...
After the bow update its more like [..] ~106/m

I haven't tested bows since forever; so, I'm definitely operating under old data on there.


Rapid Shot adds 21% [..] Vistani Capstone 5% Throwing Att Speed under the "+" tab 61%

Throwing I've checked since U51. You'll hit the hard-cap with throwing with just Haste + Whirling. (I wanted to be sure I could skip Haste as I had been doing pre-51 .. but nope, it matters now.) You'll want the usual ranged feats, haste, & whirling, but no need to consider any extras past that. They won't have any effect.

The other thing I checked was Xbow ROF, which never reached the hard-cap; ie. all the haste you can get for it will matter at least a little bit. The exception was NHB, which took it well over the 86/m cap.


Sounds like there is no point in running a throwing build with Horizon Walker here.

Carpone did a fantastic comparison (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/530531-U53-Ranged-Showdown-Damage-Calculations-for-17-Builds) of a number of ranged builds.

IIRC, throwers pull ahead on very long fights and get more out of Shiradi Moment, while bows are much more front-loaded burst (hence why bows do so well on the kobold comparison). They're both VERY strong ranged DPS styles. Which you pick is more a matter of taste and circumstance than science.

IMHO, the real surprise is how bad Inquisitive is. It pretty much aspires to someday being permitted to scrape the bottom of the barrel the other ranged builds are in (barely more than half a good thrower or bow). Repeaters and Gxbow both far outperform INQ.

[LightBear]

AFAIK, haste => 22% ranged alacrity.

Whirling wrists = 30% ranged throwing alacrity.

That two along adds up to 52%... So its hard capped at 86 missiles per minute. Is that equal to 36% alacrity capped?

Sounds like there is no point in running a throwing build with Horizon Walker here.

Well let's see
0.3 from whirling wrists * 0.22 from haste = 0.066
0.3 + 0.6 (rounded down) = 0.36

Not saying that the math is done in the right way but you do get up with a number that is close to 36%.

Haste gives a plus of 15% to attack speed, so if you're seeing a number of 22 than you have something else accounting towards attack speed.
Whirling Wrists gives a plus of 30%, also to attack speed. So this makes a number of 22 not possible.
Also, speeds don't stack, right? Could be that some other specific source does add to speed but haste from an item, spell or that epic feat is always the "exact" same thing.

Since we're talking about throwers, 10% ranged alacrity is the best I can find, it's on a famous quiver.

Other than that:

Universal ranged feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Precision, Improved Precise Shot, Combat Archery, Shot on the Run (not worth it for throwers IMO)
Throwing-specific feats: Quick Draw, Brutal Throw (do not take), Improved Critical Thrown, Weapon Focus / Specialization Thrown
Shuriken-specific feats: Shuriken Expertise, Ten Thousand Stars (req's monk 6)
Darts and thrown daggers only: Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise, Multitude of Missiles

So your first big decision is which weapon to focus on: shuriken or darts/daggers? Shuriken builds are always monk-based to take advantage of TTS and Advanced Ninja Training. STWE is what's being nerfed in the next update so simple throwers will see their DPS drop significantly.

Not gonna list everything which boosts thrown weapons but the major class trees are: Vile Chemist (Alchemist) for simple weapons; Ninja (monk) for shurikens only; Deepwood Stalker (ranger); Swashbuckler (bard); Mechanic (rogue). And Vistani Knife Fighter for daggers, of course. There's also generic DPS bonuses in trees like Kensei (fighter), Assassin (rogue), and Knight of the Chalice (paladin) which will apply to thrown weapons. Broadly speaking, apart from generic damage bonuses, you're looking for anything which boosts your Doubleshot, Ranged Power, and attack speed. Also critical threat range, of course, but remember that most class bonuses are Competence and don't stack.

Primary stat is DEX unless you're going the Alchemist Simple Thrower route in which case you have the option of making INT primary thanks to Vile Chemist's level 12 enhancement ("If you have Simple Thrown Expertise, you now use the higher of your Intelligence and Dexterity to determine how much Doubleshot you gain from that feat."). Note that you do not get DEX to damage inherently; you need an enhancement like halfling's Skillful Thrower, ranger's Improved Weapon Finesse, or Advanced Ninja Training (shuriken only). In the next update, bard's Different Tack will apply to all Swashbuckling weapons, not just SWF melee.

For shuriken builds, your second-most important stat is WIS for the bonus to Ranged Power from TTS. For Simple Throwers, it depends on whether you can grab a Battle Trance to add a mental stat to your damage.

That's a broad summary. Here's a few builds:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/516585-Throwing-Vile-Chemist-help-wanted?p=6342515&viewfull=1#post6342515
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/516648-Daggerwood-Stalker-A-Lowbie-Thrower-Build-for-the-Monetarily-Challenged
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/511002-U44-1-20-Monk-Shuriken-Executioner-(High-Reaper)

[Coffey]

Throwing I've checked since U51. You'll hit the hard-cap with throwing with just Haste + Whirling. (I wanted to be sure I could skip Haste as I had been doing pre-51 .. but nope, it matters now.) You'll want the usual ranged feats, haste, & whirling, but no need to consider any extras past that. They won't have any effect.


Yea im not sure about the rate of fire yet but i found a discrepancy on a rebuild that looks like Vistani Capstone is a must have in this type of build unless there are items (Gilvaenors Necklace for 1 eg) that can make up the difference.

Level 30 Aasimar Scourge

Rapid Shot level 2 Character Sheet at 21%
At level 27 added Blinding Speed (15%) Character Sheet at 36%
At level 30 with no items or enhancements "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 0.

Added Vistani Core 2 (5%) "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 5%
Edit: Added Vistani Core 3 "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 21% Attached to Quick Draw? Does the Quick Draw feat do the same?
Added Vistani Capstone (5%) "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 31%??? Edit WAI adding 5%

Added Whirling Wrists Tier 1 "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 41%
Added Whirling Wrists Tier 2 "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 51%
Added Whirling Wrists Tier 3 "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 61%

It looks as if Rapid Reload took a twist through the spaghetti to the "+" Thrown Attack Speed. Edit 21% added to Quickdraw.

So the Tier 1 Whirling Wrists is counting now. Some how it wasnt last time i looked at this.

[Coffey]

Level 30 Aasimar Scourge

Rapid Shot level 2 Character Sheet at 21%
At level 27 added Blinding Speed (15%) Character Sheet at 36%
At level 30 with no items or enhancements "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 0.

Added Vistani Core 2 (5%) "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 5%
Added Vistani Core 3 "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 26%
Added Vistani Capstone (5%) "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 31%
Added Whirling Wrists Tier 1 "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 41%
Added Whirling Wrists Tier 2 "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 51%
Added Whirling Wrists Tier 3 "+" Thrown Attack Speed is 61%