U57 Preview 2 Hit Point Pass

[Torc]

Hey this is an update to the hit point pass for Lammania preview 2. It's more buffy and less nerfy to people who are really on the high end, has some fighter perks in it.

A Quick Overview Part 2:



Epic Defensive Fighting is going away. We are replacing it with many other options.
Replacement Competence bonuses have been spread around the trees mostly in T5 of melee focused trees. (new T4 in Occult Slayer)
Heroic Durability will now give a passive hit point bonus scaled off your class level and how many combat style feats you have (up to 4)

Changes from Preview 1

In regards to this pass we won't be touching destinies so disregard preview 1's statements about unyielding or fury
Competence bonuses in certain trees got upped, a few bonuses moved to different enhancements. New enhancement in Occult Slayer.
Some Fighter love occurred (Enhancement section & bottom of the post)
Adjustment to Stout of Heart and Animal Domain is slightly more mild



HP PASS:

Part 1 - Grant HP for investing in melee feats magnified by class picks.

-Heroic Durability updated:

Heroic Durability - +30 Hit Points. In addition, for every melee combat style feat you take you gain a 25% bonus to the hit points gained from your class levels. Epic and Legendary levels count at half value. This bonus can only stack up to 100%.





-Boosting the Base Hit Die of certain classes:


To keep the delta between a wizard and a barbarian tighter we shift the class dice around a little.


-All Classes with a Hit Die of d4 is increased to D6.

-Bard, Arty and Rogue are increased to D8s

-Ranger increased to D10s


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1006253242637889539/1031964014806306846/unknown.png


Note there was some confusion about epic/legendary levels changing HD value. They are still going to give 10 hit points a level it's just the combat style bonus of heroic durability treats them at half value.

Part 2 - Melee enhancement trees Competence hit point bonuses



So the 2nd pass pretty much breaks the trees into three categories

Primary melees who get 25% (the tank trees got increased to)
Caster/Range Melee Hybrids who only get 20% though you can still splash into fighter/paladin/bear and now now occult slayer
Nuker Melee Hybrids who get only 15% (again they can still splash)








Alchemist
T5 - Chemical Weapon gets multi selector called Chemical Body - grants 15% comp bonus to hit points and 10 melee power.

Artificer
T5 - Battle Engineer - Reconstructed Arms & Edges grant a +20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to their original bonuses.
T5- Regenade Mastermaker - MasterMaker - You gain a 20% competence bonus to max hit points in addition to it's original effect.

Barbarians
T5 - Ravager - Uncanny Balance gains +25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Frenzied Berserker Healing or Hurt: Either of these enhancements selected grant a +25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T4 - Occult Slayer - Rune Carved Armor - 2 AP You gain a +25% competence bonus to max hit points and +2 to all saves vs magic while wearing medium or heavy armor.


Bards
T5 - Swash Buckler - Second Skin, AP cost reduced to 1. Updated to: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 Max Dex Bonus to Armor. Rank 3 grants a +20% competence bonus to hit points.
T4 - On the Mark: AP cost reduced to 1 per rank
T5 - WarChanter - Howl of the North will now also grant a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Cleric
T5 - Warrior Priest - Divine bastion - Gain 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
Core 4 - Warrior Priest - Warcasting - Sacred hit point back up to 10%. (so reverted change from preview 1)
Class Feat - Cleric Animal Domain hit point bonus reduced to 4 hit points per level (net: 128 by level 32)
Divine Bastion Updated: No longer increases threat but grants a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Druid
Core 4 - Nature's Warrior - Howl of Winter now grants a passive 5% primal bonus to max hit points in additional to it's previous effects.
T3,4,5 - Nature's Protector - Ursa line's restriction updated to be usable by druids in bear form either using shield or wearing medium or heavier armor.

Favored Soul
Class Feat - Stout of Heart Changed reduced to : 4 hit points per level (net: 128 by level 32)
Divine Champion: Updated: No longer increases threat but grants 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Fighter
T5 Kensai- Weapon Master - Grants 25% competence bonus to hit points if a melee weapon focus was selected in core 1 in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 Stalwart Thick of Battle replaced with a flat passive 100% threat bonus & grants 60 hit points
T5 - Against the Odds grants 60 hit points in addition to it's original effect
Core 4 Stalwart - Stand Fast - grants a 10% quality bonus to hit points in addition to it's original effect
T5 Block and Cut: Updated - Perform a melee attack with your main hand weapon, 2/4/6 W On Damage gain a 10/15/25% morale bonus to double strike and a 10/15/25 bonus to armor class for 5 seconds. Cooldown 10 seconds.
T3 Stalwart Defensive Stance increased to a 25% competence bonus at rank 3.
T5 Vanguard - Brutal Impact - Grants 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Monk
new T5 for Henshin Mystic & Ninja Spy - Self Defense - Grants +5 MRR, MRR Cap and 25% competence bonus to Hit Points
T5 Shintao - Meditation of War reverted to it's previous state (so as it is on live)
T5 - Shintao - Empty Hand Mastery - gets 25% competence bonus to Hit Points in addition to it's original effects

Ranger
T5 - Tempest- Dual Perfection grants a 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Rogue
T5 Assassin Light Armor Mastery Rank 3 - Grants a 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Acrobat- Staff Specialist - Grants 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Paladin
T5 - KOTC - Vigor of Life grants 25% competence bonus to hit points
T5 Vanguard - Brutal Impact - Grants 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 Sacred Fist - Divine Strike renamed Divine Striker, grants a 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original effects.
T3 - Tenacious Defense upped to 25% like fighter

Sorc/Wiz
As in preview 1.

Knight's Transformation Updated: While this toggle is active your base attack bonus is increased to equal your character level. When you successfully hit with an Eldritch Strike you gain Knight's Strike: +30 universal spell power and +3% Critical Spell Damage for 30 seconds.

Improved Knight's Transformation Updated: While Knight's transformation is active you gain a +1 comp bonus to your weapons crit multipler. When your Eldritch Strike hits you gain the additional bonuses to your Knight's Strike of +3 to Hit, Damage and 3% double strike. Passive Bonus: You gain 15% competence bonus to Max Hit Points (regardless if the toggle is on or not)

Knight's Striker: Knight's Strike gains +2 Evocation and Conjuration DCs and +20 melee power. Passive: You gain mobile spell casting.
Knight's Controller: Knight's Strike gains +2 Enchantment DCs, +2 Illusion DCS, +4 Spell Penetration and +20 Melee Power. Passive: You gain mobile spell casting.

Warlock
(No Updates to enhancement trees. Warlock enlightened spirit already has a comp bonus in their tree).

Falconry
T5- Dangerous- changes and get a multi selector option called Swift. Dangerous: +10 melee power, +25% competence bonus to hit points. Swift: +3 reflex saves, 10 ranged power.

Vistani
New Enhancement called Grudge Bearer, Multi selector off of Whirling Blades, grants +25% competence bonus to hit points for 2 AP.

New Fighter Perk

Second Wind Auto granted for fighter level 2. Active this ability to regain 50% of your max hit points. 15 second cool down. You can used this once per rest, with an additional charges gained at Fighter levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. At level 8 Second Wind removes negative effects like the Panacea spell.


Additional Follow Up:

Improved Natural Fighting: Wolf form competence bonus increased from 15% to 20%.

Epic Defensive Fighting: Will be removed from the game. (still)

[drewollice]

BUG: Rogue hit dice not increased.

rolled 1 rogue on orien and 1 rogue on lamania. Both matching feats and con. same hp.

i took lvl 2 on both and same hp still.

so the d6 -> d8 doesnt seem to be in effect at least for rogues.

EDIT: those 2 toons were both drow.
i just rolled 2 shadarkai with matching stats and the +2 hp is showing as expected.
will test more.

[Stravix]

A lot of the holes in coverage seems to have been closed up nicely in this pass, and I personally love the Second Wind feature, even if it will just be a panacea in reaper content.

Overall, this has shaped up nicely, IMO.

[Zer0AcmE]

Why was Paladin SD overlooked?

[Stravix]

Why was Paladin SD overlooked?

Guessing a typo, since StD in fighter had it's HP buffed.

[Black_Ninja]

New Fighter Perk

Second Wind Auto granted for fighter level 2. Active this ability to regain 50% of your max hit points. 15 second cool down. You can used this once per rest, with an additional charges gained at Fighter levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. At level 8 Second Wind removes negative effects like the Panacea spell.


This looks really cool! Will this be "Healing" and therefore affected by Hamp/Reaper penalties, or is it just a straight up 50% hp regained regardless of bonuses/penalties/what you are healed by?

[Kielbasa]

Looks like an improvement from preview 1 nice job.

[BigSlugger]

Why was Paladin SD overlooked?

Sacred Defender already has a competence bonus to HP, but if you feel like it's still missing something don't hesitate to suggest it, devs do actually read these threads.

[TPICKRELL]

This is much better than preview 1, thank you.

[rabidfox]

Why was Paladin SD overlooked?

The extra 5% is there, just looks like it got missed in the notes.

https://i.imgur.com/uFPNLIf.jpg

[Zer0AcmE]

Sacred Defender already has a competence bonus to HP, but if you feel like it's still missing something don't hesitate to suggest it, devs do actually read these threads.

It's been updated...

[Stravix]

Apparently its on Lama but just missed int he notes here...

That being said, I don't like that Fighter now gets 10% Quality HP in tier 4 (only 4 levels required) while Paladin gets stuck with 10% Sacred in Core 4 (18 levels requried and robbing it of truely bennifiting from being Aasimar race)

Paladin should have it adjusted to Quality/tier 4 as well.

Note says that fighter gets it in Core 4, is it in T4 instead?

That said, I can see the whole aasimar/pally anti-synergy as a bad thing, but to be fair, they have mechanically had a bunch of overlap for forever, no?

[Cashiry]

Fighter
T3 Stalwart Defensive Stance increased to a 25% competence bonus at rank 3.



Paladin
T5 - KOTC - Vigor of Life grants 25% competence bonus to hit points
T5 Vanguard - Brutal Impact - Grants 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 Sacred Fist - Divine Strike renamed Divine Striker, grants a 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original effects.
(still)

So Why does Paladin Sacred Defender not get a 25% bonus when Fighter Stalwart Defense does?

[Talnar00]

So Why does Paladin Sacred Defender not get a 25% bonus when Fighter Stalwart Defense does?[/INDENT]


The extra 5% is there, just looks like it got missed in the notes.

https://i.imgur.com/uFPNLIf.jpg

Just was missed in the notes.

[Zeklijan]

Alchemist
T5 - Chemical Weapon gets multi selector called Chemical Body - grants 15% comp bonus to hit points and 10 melee power.

Artificer
T5 - Battle Engineer - Reconstructed Arms & Edges grant a +20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to their original bonuses.
T5- Regenade Mastermaker - MasterMaker - You gain a 20% competence bonus to max hit points in addition to it's original effect.


Sorc/Wiz
As in preview 1.

Knight's Transformation Updated: While this toggle is active your base attack bonus is increased to equal your character level. When you successfully hit with an Eldritch Strike you gain Knight's Strike: +30 universal spell power and +3% Critical Spell Damage for 30 seconds.

Improved Knight's Transformation Updated: While Knight's transformation is active you gain a +1 comp bonus to your weapons crit multipler. When your Eldritch Strike hits you gain the additional bonuses to your Knight's Strike of +3 to Hit, Damage and 3% double strike. Passive Bonus: You gain 15% competence bonus to Max Hit Points (regardless if the toggle is on or not)

Knight's Striker: Knight's Strike gains +2 Evocation and Conjuration DCs and +20 melee power. Passive: You gain mobile spell casting.
Knight's Controller: Knight's Strike gains +2 Enchantment DCs, +2 Illusion DCS, +4 Spell Penetration and +20 Melee Power. Passive: You gain mobile spell casting.


I'm very confused why Vile Chemists are getting 15% competence. Alchemists, bards, artificers are all 6th level spells casters. Why is alchemist getting lower competence HP than the other 6th level casters?

I'm not sold on the idea that wizards/sorcs should get 15% either, but as 9th level spellcasters I kinda get it. Alchemists though, not so much.



Druid
Core 4 - Nature's Warrior - Howl of Winter now grants a passive 5% primal bonus to max hit points in additional to it's previous effects.
T3,4,5 - Nature's Protector - Ursa line's restriction updated to be usable by druids in bear form either using shield or wearing medium or heavier armor.


I believe Howl of Winter is core 5? Are they getting the 5% primal at level 12 or 18?

[Xgya]

Small curiosity about Fighter Second Wind: does it scale in any way?
It scaling off the character's highest Amp (so, repair, positive or negative) would probably make a lick of sense.

If it DOESN'T scale, can you mayhaps think it won't scale at all ever? (so no Healing Amp, but reaper/champion/mummy curse/cursed wound penalties also stay at the door?)

[Torc]

Why was Paladin SD overlooked?

It was just missing from the notes, but it should be 25% on Lammania right now.

[Pandjed]

New Fighter Perk

Second Wind Auto granted for fighter level 2. Active this ability to regain 50% of your max hit points. 15 second cool down. You can used this once per rest, with an additional charges gained at Fighter levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. At level 8 Second Wind removes negative effects like the Panacea spell.

A big fat THANK YOU!

[Zer0AcmE]

Yeah they just WAY over powered Fighter compared to Paladin.

Guess they forgot that Fighter already gets all the extra Feats to balance it out, now they get extra HP and self healing.

Paladin needs more HP/feats or something to balance it...

Paladins also needs Last Stand, Eternal Defender is garbage.

[Zer0AcmE]

Bug: new barb 25% from Occult Slayer tree not applying to WF/BF with adamantine body feat.

[Cashiry]

Just was missed in the notes.

Thanks, I just logged and saw this..

[Monkey_Archer]

Yeah they just WAY over powered Fighter compared to Paladin.

Guess they forgot that Fighter already gets all the extra Feats to balance it out, now they get extra HP and self healing.

Paladin needs more HP/feats or something to balance it...

Paladins also needs Last Stand, Eternal Defender is garbage.

Nope. Paladins are still probably stronger tanks.

Better saves, better dps inherently, healing for party. Fighter finally has a point to being played: a bit more hp now.

[Erofen]

Sorc/Wiz
As in preview 1.

...

Epic Defensive Fighting: Will be removed from the game. (still)

So my pure wizard zombie tank is still getting a 25% hp nerf. :thumbsdown:

[Torc]

Bug: new barb 25% from Occult Slayer tree not applying to WF/BF with adamantine body feat.

confirmed and fixing

[Baahb3]

So you are apparently fine with FvSs and Animal Clerics who don't fight, just heal people so they can fight longer, getting a rather large reduction in HPs? Am I reading that right?

[rabidfox]

So you are apparently fine with FvSs and Animal Clerics who don't fight, just heal people so they can fight longer, getting a rather large reduction in HPs? Am I reading that right?

They should make a T5 in FvS/clerics heal trees grant an extra +6 HP per level (if one has stout/animal); seems like a fair trade-off for those who go that deep in the tree to grab that HP back. And ideally shove % competence to HP in the level 20 heal tree cores to tempt healbots away from the 17/3 splashes.

[Pandjed]

Yeah they just WAY over powered Fighter compared to Paladin.

Guess they forgot that Fighter already gets all the extra Feats to balance it out, now they get extra HP and self healing.

Paladin needs more HP/feats or something to balance it...

Paladins also needs Last Stand, Eternal Defender is garbage.

Yeah, way overpowered. I mean, what does the paladin has that the fighter doesn't (not counting enhancements):

Divine Favor, which is like 2 fighter feats (weapn focus, weapon specialization)
Angelskin as a 2nd level spell, which is like an ungated Heavy Armor Mastery and Heavy Armor Champion (though 1 PRR/MRR less)
Righteous Command as a 2nd level spell, which grants more melee power than all of the weapon focus and weapon specialization feats combined
Zeal as a 4th level spell, which grants a bonus a fighter can't even accomplish with feats, but is double what the destiny feat brings, so let's count it as 2 feats


So the paladin has spells, which are around 8 feats worth, some of them rather high level. I didn't even count the bless, the prayer, and other party buffs, though the paladin has always access to it. Then we also got the HP to condition heals, and of course Lay on Hands. Not to forget Holy Sword, which enables Paladin trees to waive the enhancement for crit improvement.
Add to it that imo the KotC is a far superior tree to Kensei and Stalward Defender is for the most part inferior to Sacred Defender, you may notice a pattern here.

So the fighter having access to a bonus feat which more or less counterbalances Lay on Hands, ever improving Remove Disease, Smite Evil, several feat replacements in KotC, a much better tank tree, and such doesn't strike me as overpowering the fighter at all, but making the fighter catching up to the paladin.

The make and break point would be how reaper scaling affects it. LoH on a paladin usually restores most if not all HP per charge on non-reaper, and get less useful with higher ones. If Second Wind ends up scaling down like normal in reaper, then this would be helpful in usual r1 leveling, but LoH would definitely overtake it with r5+. Especially given that it can be used on others.

Also question is, whether it's a good idea to tack it on level 2 fighter, as this is the usual multiclass dip, as it means two more feats.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot about Divine Health, important to mention. If we would compare it to the feats that improve saves... well, a lot of stacks of Luck of Heroes.

[Arjen]

Rogue
T5 Assassin Light Armor Mastery Rank 3 - Grants a 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.


Would you possibly consider putting this bonus in Knife Specialization instead?

[GramercyRiff]

Does Paladin's Righteous Command spell still not get the bonus caster levels from epic and legendary? If it doesn't will you fix this ever?


Second Wind is pretty cool. Hopefully the healing matters, but even getting a Panacea is quite strong.

[Caarb]

So my pure wizard zombie tank is still getting a 25% hp nerf. :thumbsdown:

Seems an easy enough fix. Add a new undead form (mummy?) or re-purpose Zombie or Wraith. Add some casting penalty like double cooldown or something and give the form 20% Competence bonus in T5.

[Zhyano]

Preview1 was awful

This however, is looking quite good! Not sure if all the changes work the way you intend them to, but at least it doesnt kill a whole host of builds and balances HP a bit.

Curious to see how new fighter things perform, looking forward to live!

props to listening to the community!

[Snormal]

Melee characters that go to tier 5 PM are taking a bit of a hit here. Vampire specifically encourages melee (heal on hit and para on hit) but now has less HP than any other melee build. Giving the competence bonus in vampire form obv wouldn't work since then people would take vampire for caster, but maybe increasing the proc chance on both heal and dominate would work since that's only a boost for melees and indirectly increases effective HP.

[jskinner937]

I do not know what happened between u56 and the u57 preview, but clearly feedback was recognized.

Even though not everything made it in preview 2, I just wanted to say thank you for listening and this is a move in a positive direction.

[Erofen]

Seems an easy enough fix. Add a new undead form (mummy?) or re-purpose Zombie or Wraith. Add some casting penalty like double cooldown or something and give the form 20% Competence bonus in T5.

Double cooldown? Heck no. Reduce my casting range like the original EDF did? Sure.

[Xgya]

Melee characters that go to tier 5 PM are taking a bit of a hit here. Vampire specifically encourages melee (heal on hit and para on hit) but now has less HP than any other melee build. Giving the competence bonus in vampire form obv wouldn't work since then people would take vampire for caster, but maybe increasing the proc chance on both heal and dominate would work since that's only a boost for melees and indirectly increases effective HP.

Yup, some PMs go melee.
The only form that DOESN'T get some form of reliable extra survivability is Vampire.
Liches get extra MRR Cap. Wraiths have the highest Ghostly on the block. And Zombies get HPs.

Meanwhile, two forms gets Melee-exclusive perks.
Vampires drain life and paralyze.
Zombies get Melee Power.

The Devs stuck a Melee-only interesting ability (the vampire's paralysis) in Tier 5 of a tree that otherwise gets nothing to help it go toe to toe with enemies.

I agree, the buff should probably be to those abilities.
First, make the healing both healing AND temp HP. So it acts as a buffer and extra survival.
Or better yet, make the negative level inducing attack also grant scaling temp HPs like it would tabletop spectres and vampires. That way actual Vampires can double-dip, and non-melee Palemasters stay as they are. It also adds an extra layer of protection to non-Vampire melee PMs without needing to directly buff their hit points.

[Azoyhn]

Nope. Paladins are still probably stronger tanks.

Better saves, better dps inherently, healing for party. Fighter finally has a point to being played: a bit more hp now.
So, the difference between Paladin and Fighter has been very clear to me. Fighter can dump a bunch of run into roughly 10,2k hit points in reaper and still survive on decent PRR. If they're trying and need some MRR they can drop to 9,2k and pick up roughly 150 MRR and some more PRR to be a bit more sustainable, but not much more.

Paladin is good for party play, my stats are decent. Fighter isn't targetted towards party play and just absolutely stomps Paladin defense wise, if you want to have a high survivability. Both capstones are broken, but Last Stand really packs a punch compared to the Paladin capstone, but if played correctly it's insanely hard to wipe out a paladin.

Both has some trade offs, but a well built Paladin will easily compare to a Fighter. I think Fighter is better as a first life tank, however.

[Propane]

Hey this is an update to the hit point pass for Lammania preview 2. It's more buffy and less nerfy to people who are really on the high end, has some fighter perks in it.

Cleric
T5 - Warrior Priest - Divine bastion - Gain 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
Core 4 - Warrior Priest - Warcasting - Sacred hit point back up to 10%. (so reverted change from preview 1)
Class Feat - Cleric Animal Domain hit point bonus reduced to 4 hit points per level (net: 128 by level 32)
Divine Bastion Updated: No longer increases threat but grants a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.


Hello!

I have been working on a Cleric Tank (not FvS) - 15 Cleric / 4 Pally / 1 Fighter.

Animal Domain
I do have the 3 two handed fighting feats and the 3 shield feats.
36AP in RS with T5
21AP in WP - just enough to get Core12 HP
13AP in Pal Sacred Defender - Stance with HP boost T3
11AP in Dwarf for T2 Child of Mountain for 5% hp boost

When comparing Live to Lamannia...

My standing HP is about is a little higher 2988 (preview) vs 2894 (live) - ok

When I want to turtle up and only aura heal / heal self - go into EDF stance on live for 3430 (291 PRR , 158 MRR) - barely enough for off tanking (AC is only ~160).

With out EDF or some other tweak - this really good sized nerf of ~440 HP....

This build was border line as is - doubt it will stand after this update and need to be remade in too something...

[Stravix]

Hello!

I have been working on a Cleric Tank (not FvS) - 15 Cleric / 4 Pally / 1 Fighter.

Animal Domain
I do have the 3 two handed fighting feats and the 3 shield feats.
36AP in RS with T5
21AP in WP - just enough to get Core12 HP
13AP in Pal Sacred Defender - Stance with HP boost T3
11AP in Dwarf for T2 Child of Mountain for 5% hp boost

When comparing Live to Lamannia...

My standing HP is about is a little higher 2988 (preview) vs 2894 (live) - ok

When I want to turtle up and only aura heal / heal self - go into EDF stance on live for 3430 (291 PRR , 158 MRR) - barely enough for off tanking (AC is only ~160).

With out EDF or some other tweak - this really good sized nerf of ~440 HP....

This build was border line as is - doubt it will stand after this update and need to be remade in too something...

I must be missing something here.

You have SD stance that has been improved from 20% comp to 25% comp, got the base HP increase, and as such (I would assume despite animal domain) you have a slight HP increase.

My confusion comes in because you mention turning on EDF, but EDF should do very little for your build, as you were already sitting at 20% comp HP from SD stance. How were you getting such a large HP increase from EDF, when it doesn't stack with stance?

[Torc]

Hello!

I have been working on a Cleric Tank (not FvS) - 15 Cleric / 4 Pally / 1 Fighter.

Animal Domain
I do have the 3 two handed fighting feats and the 3 shield feats.
36AP in RS with T5
21AP in WP - just enough to get Core12 HP
13AP in Pal Sacred Defender - Stance with HP boost T3
11AP in Dwarf for T2 Child of Mountain for 5% hp boost

When comparing Live to Lamannia...

My standing HP is about is a little higher 2988 (preview) vs 2894 (live) - ok

When I want to turtle up and only aura heal / heal self - go into EDF stance on live for 3430 (291 PRR , 158 MRR) - barely enough for off tanking (AC is only ~160).

With out EDF or some other tweak - this really good sized nerf of ~440 HP....

This build was border line as is - doubt it will stand after this update and need to be remade in too something...

Odd. If your running the Sacred Defender stance (with tenacious defense) the only change in HP should be from the the animal domain adjustment vs the combat style bonus. I think your build would come out going from a 320 animal domain bonus on live to.... 120 from cleric, 50 from fight/paladin, 60 from epic/legendary and 128 from new animal domain... 358... you should be gaining 38 hit points times hp% multiplier, AND be able to cast at range now....

So something is wrong.... maybe the combat style bonus isn't applying to you somehow? I will investigate.

-T

[Nandos]

I'm happy the Second Wind feat was finally added into the game. Can you please buff/redesign/replace Counterattack in T4 Stalwart Defender? It badly needs a makeover.

[Propane]

Odd. If your running the Sacred Defender stance (with tenacious defense) the only change in HP should be from the the animal domain adjustment vs the combat style bonus. I think your build would come out going from a 320 animal domain bonus on live to.... 120 from cleric, 50 from fight/paladin, 60 from epic/legendary and 128 from new animal domain... 358... you should be gaining 38 hit points times hp% multiplier, AND be able to cast at range now....

So something is wrong.... maybe the combat style bonus isn't applying to you somehow? I will investigate.

-T

Thanks for the response - I re-logged and noticed that I had the CON bonus , not the HP bonus - as T3 Pally - respected AP to change to Tenacious...

Now at 3398 - so much less of a change at ~42 hp... thanks for posting-

Do shield feats count towards HP Stacking?

Propane

https://imgur.com/9xneoJQhttps://i.imgur.com/9xneoJQ.jpg

[slarden]

Great changes adding Quality HP to fighter giving it more parity with paladin having the 10% sacred bonus. I like the hp restoration ability - seems like it will be great for R10s if it's not debuffed like healing.

[Cashiry]

Great changes adding Quality HP to fighter giving it more parity with paladin having the 10% sacred bonus.

True, though if they are in unyielding sentinel and spent points in deific resillance and have deific warding as a feet. Your really only gaining 5% quality.

So fighters can drop deific warding as a feet as they will still be able to get it by spending the AP’s in unyielding.

[Arguile]

Vistani
New Enhancement called Grudge Bearer, Multi selector off of Whirling Blades, grants +25% competence bonus to hit points for 2 AP.

If you play a melee VKF you will now have a 2 ap tax compared to many other melee classes. I understand you do not want the ranged builds to have the bonus hp's, but this is a raw deal for the VKF melee builds. perhaps consider reducing ap costs elsewhere.

Suggestion: 1 ap for vendetta. This will at least mitigate the tax slightly.

Great work! this looks very promising and I'm very excited for this update!

[kitty12345]

Bards
T5 - Swash Buckler - Second Skin, AP cost reduced to 1. Updated to: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 Max Dex Bonus to Armor. Rank 3 grants a +20% competence bonus to hit points.
T4 - On the Mark: AP cost reduced to 1 per rank
T5 - WarChanter - Howl of the North will now also grant a 20% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Monk
new T5 for Henshin Mystic & Ninja Spy - Self Defense - Grants +5 MRR, MRR Cap and 25% competence bonus to Hit Points.



The Swash Buckler - Second Skin is not worth spending 3 AP to get to Rank 3 for the +20% competence bonus to HP.

Currently with EDF and full SWF feats, it offers 25% bonus to HP without spending a single AP. With the new update, the "The Swash Buckler - Second Skin" only gives you 20% bonus to HP and you will need to spend 3 AP at T5. It is a very high investment for 5% less HP.
Alternately, please put the 20% bonus to HP into the "Coup De Grace - Melee Attack". This way, it will lock out the Ranged portion, but it will not require to waste 3 AP.
Or add the 20% bonus to HP to both "The Swash Buckler - Second Skin" and "Coup De Grace - Melee Attack", this way, at least we have a choice. Since it is same bonus type, it would not stack anyway.
Otherwise, would it be possible to add a similar skill like the "T5 for Henshin Mystic & Ninja Spy - Self Defense", but just 1 AP for the +20% competence bonus to HP? Spending 1 AP is better than wasting 3 AP at T5.

Please re-consider one of these alternative solutions.

Thanks.

[Bjond]

Replacement Competence bonuses have been spread around the trees mostly in T5 of melee focused trees. (new T4 in Occult Slayer)

Placing almost 40 AP into one tree is not something that should be mandatory for just one of the 3 dps styles. It reduces the "build-space" from 10K potential melee builds to just a few spread across 20'ish deep trees. Build flex is the ONE and only thing DDO does better than other MMOs. Are you seriously considering taking an axe to that tree?

Many of my melee builds never use a T5 and so loose 25% HP. All my builds are AP-starved; 2 AP shuffled = character mangled, 10~20 AP shuffled = concept destroyed. My melee bard takes T5 SPELLSINGER (T5 & T4 swash is pointless, T5 & (most of) T4 warchanter is a waste and the vorpal ice is buggy, overwrites skill ice duration). EK looses 10% HP. Wolf looses 10% (FOTW HP is primal .. imho, change np:defender to animal or shield). Warpriest/soul looses 5%. Melee warlock looses 25% (I've never played a pure class).

There are MANY other ways to keep a 25% bonus restricted to melee that don't kill current characters or drastically reduce the build space. Why not use one (as suggested in pass-1 thread) instead of hacking up all the trees trying to fixup the loss of EDF HP 1x1 for each and every build?

[Alternative]

Second Wind Auto granted for fighter level 2. Active this ability to regain 50% of your max hit points. 15 second cool down. You can used this once per rest, with an additional charges gained at Fighter levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. At level 8 Second Wind removes negative effects like the Panacea spell.



I'm going to get some hate for this probably, but this is too good, and too OP compared to what other classes get.

It's pretty much 6 better lay on hands: without reaper penalty, granted for FREE, work when CCed, and remove statuses too?? First you nerf lay on hands (destiny pass made it impossible to twist extra charges/recharge for dps builds), then you nerf healing hands, and now you give fighters THIS!? It should be paladin's perk to do lower dps but have better self healing, this is ridiculous.

[leesun]

I'm going to get some hate for this probably, but this is too good, and too OP compared to what other classes get.

It's pretty much 6 better lay on hands: without reaper penalty, granted for FREE, work when CCed, and remove statuses too?? First you nerf lay on hands (destiny pass made it impossible to twist extra charges/recharge for dps builds), then you nerf healing hands, and now you give fighters THIS!? It should be paladin's perk to do lower dps but have better self healing, this is ridiculous.

Though I am thrilled that fighters are getting a heal I agree that it is waaay too strong. What if the the healing was reduced, the ability to use it whilst CCd was removed, the panacea effect was removed, but instead of 1-6 charges it used action boost charges?

[DRAXnekro]

Improved Natural Fighting: Wolf form competence bonus increased from 15% to 20%.



I'm guesing it's about Perfect Natural Fighting. With this change, the 5% primal bonus and the 10% exceptional bonus from lvl 31 feat wolfs will get a total of 35% bonus to hp. That is too much compared to bears or even other melee classes. I get it that bears are geting huge bonuses to CON but with flat bonuses to hp from reapers and the heroic durability revamp, wolf might go way ahead from bears that were supposed to be a Hp pool with fangs and clavs.

This is not the thread but gonna point that out anyway. Perfect Natural fighting and Wild Force seems to be giving better bonuses to wolfs than to bears and in many cases those feats are considered useless to bears.

[Arlathen]

Epic Defensive Fighting: Will be removed from the game. (still)

Still one of the best changes to the game to come along IMHO! Thank you!


Hey this is an update to the hit point pass for Lammania preview 2.....

Caster/Range Melee Hybrids who only get 20% though you can still splash into fighter/paladin/bear and now now occult slayer

Ranger
T5 - Tempest- Dual Perfection grants a 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.


Feel like Deepwood Stalker is missing out here, as its a Melee/Ranged Hybrid tree and doesn't seem to have any bonuses? I checked on Lammania and didn't see anything.

Perhaps add +20% Competence bonus to HP to the T5 Strikes Like Lightning?

[SpartanKiller13]

True, though if they are in unyielding sentinel and spent points in deific resilience and have deific warding as a feet. Your really only gaining 5% quality.

So fighters can drop deific warding as a feet as they will still be able to get it by spending the AP’s in unyielding.

2 free EDP or Toughness, plus 5% HP - at worst. Seems pretty good?


I'm going to get some hate for this probably, but this is too good, and too OP compared to what other classes get.

It's pretty much 6 better lay on hands: without reaper penalty, granted for FREE, work when CCed, and remove statuses too?? First you nerf lay on hands (destiny pass made it impossible to twist extra charges/recharge for dps builds), then you nerf healing hands, and now you give fighters THIS!? It should be paladin's perk to do lower dps but have better self healing, this is ridiculous.

Where did you see that there isn't reaper penalty? Nothing in the OP or on Lama shows that AFAIK?

LoH can be used on other people, is spammable (not 15s CD), and works through/around terrain. Also scales with both stat and healamp, which Second Wind does not.

CC cleanse is pretty great for sure, but Paladin saves mean you pretty much don't get CC'ed from stuff that's cleansable so I'm not sure that's super OP either.

[Torc]

Thanks for the response - I re-logged and noticed that I had the CON bonus , not the HP bonus - as T3 Pally - respected AP to change to Tenacious...

Now at 3398 - so much less of a change at ~42 hp... thanks for posting-

Do shield feats count towards HP Stacking?

Propane

https://imgur.com/9xneoJQhttps://i.imgur.com/9xneoJQ.jpg

Yes the shield mastery line does count just like it did for EDF.

[Torc]

Great changes adding Quality HP to fighter giving it more parity with paladin having the 10% sacred bonus. I like the hp restoration ability - seems like it will be great for R10s if it's not debuffed like healing.

It is a heal and will be effected by reaper, and it's a bit of an odd duck because what it really scales with is your hit points (and amp) as supposed to positive spell power.

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

[Kortar]

It is a heal and will be effected by reaper, and it's a bit of an odd duck because what it really scales with is your hit points (and amp) as supposed to positive spell power.

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

Create a PDK on lam and it was not granted second wind feat (auto leveled using accept training)

UPDATE: It is not granted if you follow the PDK path.

[Wizard1406]

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

That would be awesome Torc.

What about lower scaling at lower skulls.... healing penalty starts at 60% (!) which is really steep for R1.

Maybe also no healing penalty out of combat? (at least in low/mid reaper) I think the game can discern already when you are not in battle, as the combat music stops.

[R1ncewind]

It is a heal and will be effected by reaper, and it's a bit of an odd duck because what it really scales with is your hit points (and amp) as supposed to positive spell power.

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

On this, I wonder how would you ( and other players) would feel about turning the selfhealing penalty into a debuff that all monsters have in reaper in either an aura or on hit effect (probably aura) that disappear after a few seconds after finishing a fight, giving enough time to selfheal between battles.

[Daedricz]

Does T5 Kensei - Weapon Master still require the Weapon Group Specializations to unlock? Also any chance we could get some AP reduction in Kensei with things like Extra Action Boost and Strikethrough somewhere in the tree? Maybe make Weapon Master a multiselector similar to Wade Through in Fury, while still keeping the original bonuses?

[Caarb]

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

This is good news. I have long advocated removing the self heal portion entirely and reduce group healing more. Dedicated healers would still be appreciated but not penalised so badly for healing themselves. I will also echo comments that out of combat healing should be far easier.

[dkyle]

On this, I wonder how would you ( and other players) would feel about turning the selfhealing penalty into a debuff that all monsters have in reaper in either an aura or on hit effect (probably aura) that disappear after a few seconds after finishing a fight, giving enough time to selfheal between battles.

There are already mechanics for recognizing being "in" or "out" of combat, such as the new Falconry changes, so that could be used too.

[Vellrad]

Are you going to change toughness feat?

[Monkey_Archer]

On this, I wonder how would you ( and other players) would feel about turning the selfhealing penalty into a debuff that all monsters have in reaper in either an aura or on hit effect (probably aura) that disappear after a few seconds after finishing a fight, giving enough time to selfheal between battles.
This. Keep the healing penalty with the same numbers, just let us self heal when combat is over.

[jskinner937]

It is a heal and will be effected by reaper, and it's a bit of an odd duck because what it really scales with is your hit points (and amp) as supposed to positive spell power.

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

Perhaps there could be a compromise? If there was a buff exclusive to healing divines (and maybe bard) that would remove or reduce self healing penalty, this could be a benefit to both healers and non-healers, while not devaluing a dedicated healer in reapers, but at least allowing them to perform other actions. Maybe a t4 enhancement in Radiant Servant and t5 in Spellsinger trees? Or tied to a core 5?

[misterski]

Maybe a t4 enhancement in Radiant Servant and t5 in Spellsinger trees? Or tied to a core 5?

Enhancements that only apply in reaper mode shouldn't appear outside the reaper trees.

[Zuldar]

It is a heal and will be effected by reaper, and it's a bit of an odd duck because what it really scales with is your hit points (and amp) as supposed to positive spell power.

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

Unyielding Sentinel has an enhancement that requires you to be out of combat for a few seconds to reapply it. Would it be possible to use that mechanic for reaper healing so it only applies when you're in combat? Healers would still be useful but you could be able to heal up between fights.

[Stravix]

Unyielding Sentinel has an enhancement that requires you to be out of combat for a few seconds to reapply it. Would it be possible to use that mechanic for reaper healing so it only applies when you're in combat? Healers would still be useful but you could be able to heal up between fights.


This. Keep the healing penalty with the same numbers, just let us self heal when combat is over.


There are already mechanics for recognizing being "in" or "out" of combat, such as the new Falconry changes, so that could be used too.


This is good news. I have long advocated removing the self heal portion entirely and reduce group healing more. Dedicated healers would still be appreciated but not penalised so badly for healing themselves. I will also echo comments that out of combat healing should be far easier.


On this, I wonder how would you ( and other players) would feel about turning the selfhealing penalty into a debuff that all monsters have in reaper in either an aura or on hit effect (probably aura) that disappear after a few seconds after finishing a fight, giving enough time to selfheal between battles.


That would be awesome Torc.

What about lower scaling at lower skulls.... healing penalty starts at 60% (!) which is really steep for R1.

Maybe also no healing penalty out of combat? (at least in low/mid reaper) I think the game can discern already when you are not in battle, as the combat music stops.

I will echo what is seeming to be a common sentiment, either remove or reduce the healing penalty for out of combat. Healers would still be very important for in combat healing, but would allow builds to not have to wait forever to patch up between combats if they so choose to slow down for that.

[thegreatcthulhu]

It is a heal and will be effected by reaper, and it's a bit of an odd duck because what it really scales with is your hit points (and amp) as supposed to positive spell power.

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

As a solo player, I can definitely vouch for Froggo when I say he would appreciate it.

[slarden]

It is a heal and will be effected by reaper, and it's a bit of an odd duck because what it really scales with is your hit points (and amp) as supposed to positive spell power.

On reaper self healing we are looking at that soon in a more global sense, but no changes for U57. We do want "healers" focused builds to be appreciated in reaper but the current system perhaps could be a little more forgiving on self medicating.

-T

Thanks this is still a very useful and needed ability for fighter and I like that it's actually based on a p&p ability.

The high penalty definitely elevates non-penalized abilities like temp hp and unyielding sovereignty. That is great that it's on the radar.

[droid327]

I will echo what is seeming to be a common sentiment, either remove or reduce the healing penalty for out of combat. Healers would still be very important for in combat healing, but would allow builds to not have to wait forever to patch up between combats if they so choose to slow down for that.

Yeah no penalty on OOC heals seems like an easy layup, because all that's really changing is having to sit there and spam multiple tiny heals before you move on. That's not making it less likely you fail, its just removing an empty time sink

But I dont think that alone is the whole solution. Reaper mode, ideally, should treat everyone fairly - it shouldnt pick winners and losers...and there are builds that rely on HOTs as part of their survival strategy. PM, Druid, Rad Servs, etc. It would be unfair to penalize them more than passive-defense, burst-heal builds designed to just last through a fight and heal later.

So I think a reduction in the self-heal penalty in combat is still called for....at least at low and mid reaper, smooth the transition from Elite a little more.

[Xgya]

This. Keep the healing penalty with the same numbers, just let us self heal when combat is over.

We've been shown they have the tech to show when characters are "in combat" affecting character skills - namely, the latest Falconry change.
This is probably doable, and would satisfy a lot of players overall.

I get that constantly patching yourself back up during combat makes the game less difficult, but having a character spend hours just pointing wands or scrolls at their faces doesn't exactly fit my description of "danger".

[TueNictGut]

new T5 Ninja Spy - Self Defense - Grants +5 MRR, MRR Cap and 25% competence bonus to Hit Points

Just wanted to ask again, if the 25% for ninja throwers is intended? If i understood right, the 25% was intended for mainly Melee characters.
I would suggest to add the bonus to shadowdouble or add it to deadlystriker and make it a multiselector for melee and Ranged (if you do so add 1 multiplyer to melee too please ) or something similiar.
By just adding it, you are buffing the ranged ninja and are starving the ap of the already pretty bad t5 of melee ninja even more

[LilacDragon6]

This. Keep the healing penalty with the same numbers, just let us self heal when combat is over.

For the love of Harambe please this!

[jskinner937]

Enhancements that only apply in reaper mode shouldn't appear outside the reaper trees.

There are other healing penalties in the game outside of reaper.

And frankly, all the reaper trees need eliminated from the game completely and replaced with cosmetics only. This is the very issue with reaper. It makes no sense to have the reaper challenge diminished by making it easier. If anything, the point system should be used to make it more challenging, such as unlocking additional penalties for more rXP instead of making it easier.

[elvesunited]

It seems to me that the fix for Palemaster shouldn't be that hard. Add it to Tier 5 Ascendant Shroud. If zombie or vampire get the 20% comp hp. If shadow or Lich do not.

Ya'll all aware that ranger archers are crushing it with this update right?

Warlocks don't have the raw DPS of sorcerors or alchemists and are supposed to be tougher. They could use a hit die increase.

I'd also consider monks as a hit die increase candidate as well. They need help.

Most melee and a lot of throwers are getting a few hundred hp with only a few builds that don't take Tier 5 enhancments taking a hit. Can't really say throwers getting some is off. They've taken it hard lately and could use some help.

Favored soul casters ( and animal domain clerics without melee feats ) are probably the biggest hit. But that seems to be the intent. Just how badly did favored soul over-preform in hardcore?

[Ereshkigal]

There are other healing penalties in the game outside of reaper.

And frankly, all the reaper trees need eliminated from the game completely and replaced with cosmetics only. This is the very issue with reaper. It makes no sense to have the reaper challenge diminished by making it easier. If anything, the point system should be used to make it more challenging, such as unlocking additional penalties for more rXP instead of making it easier.

I'm imagining the rage that would occur if reaper trees were suddenly turned into cosmetic only -- or do you have a suggestion for something that would be given to the players who have spent years building up those trees that would prevent a riot?

[Ereshkigal]

Placing almost 40 AP into one tree is not something that should be mandatory for just one of the 3 dps styles. It reduces the "build-space" from 10K potential melee builds to just a few spread across 20'ish deep trees. Build flex is the ONE and only thing DDO does better than other MMOs. Are you seriously considering taking an axe to that tree?

Many of my melee builds never use a T5 and so loose 25% HP. All my builds are AP-starved; 2 AP shuffled = character mangled, 10~20 AP shuffled = concept destroyed. My melee bard takes T5 SPELLSINGER (T5 & T4 swash is pointless, T5 & (most of) T4 warchanter is a waste and the vorpal ice is buggy, overwrites skill ice duration). EK looses 10% HP. Wolf looses 10% (FOTW HP is primal .. imho, change np:defender to animal or shield). Warpriest/soul looses 5%. Melee warlock looses 25% (I've never played a pure class).

There are MANY other ways to keep a 25% bonus restricted to melee that don't kill current characters or drastically reduce the build space. Why not use one (as suggested in pass-1 thread) instead of hacking up all the trees trying to fixup the loss of EDF HP 1x1 for each and every build?

+1

The variety of viable builds should, if anything, be increased, not decreased. This update certainly seems like it will be cause the latter.

[Cashiry]

Placing almost 40 AP into one tree is not something that should be mandatory for just one of the 3 dps styles. It reduces the "build-space" from 10K potential melee builds to just a few spread across 20'ish deep trees. Build flex is the ONE and only thing DDO does better than other MMOs. Are you seriously considering taking an axe to that tree?

Many of my melee builds never use a T5 and so loose 25% HP. All my builds are AP-starved; 2 AP shuffled = character mangled, 10~20 AP shuffled = concept destroyed. My melee bard takes T5 SPELLSINGER (T5 & T4 swash is pointless, T5 & (most of) T4 warchanter is a waste and the vorpal ice is buggy, overwrites skill ice duration). EK looses 10% HP. Wolf looses 10% (FOTW HP is primal .. imho, change np:defender to animal or shield). Warpriest/soul looses 5%. Melee warlock looses 25% (I've never played a pure class).

There are MANY other ways to keep a 25% bonus restricted to melee that don't kill current characters or drastically reduce the build space. Why not use one (as suggested in pass-1 thread) instead of hacking up all the trees trying to fixup the loss of EDF HP 1x1 for each and every build?

um, you only need to spend 30 AP’s(and be class lvl 5, excluding universal tree) to access T5 unless it is a Which is fairly easy to do. Spend an additional 2 and you have the competence bonus. You just have to take the points from somewhere else. Remember that these enhancements are new to each tree and if you can’t allocate 2ap’s to get the hp’s. Then not sure what to tell you.

I had to spend 3 AP’s for the 25% on my tank as he was using EDF. In which the 3 points were originally allocated to something else.

So when you say 40 AP’s are you thinking about the Core6 ability?

[GeneralDiomedes]

Adding my voice to the rising chorus of those asking for no self healing penalty in Reaper out of combat. LOTRO has similar mechanics, reducing the tedium and increasing the speed of questing.

And heck no, please do not make Reaper cosmetic only. Reaper and TR is why I still play this game.

[Wizard1406]

Favored soul casters ( and animal domain clerics without melee feats ) are probably the biggest hit. But that seems to be the intent. Just how badly did favored soul over-preform in hardcore?

I really don't think the should balance around hardcore. On live FVS is not an overplayed or overperforming class.

[jskinner937]

I'm imagining the rage that would occur if reaper trees were suddenly turned into cosmetic only -- or do you have a suggestion for something that would be given to the players who have spent years building up those trees that would prevent a riot?

I would think that most would be fine and still getting something for their time. Most would probably welcome the new challenge, I am one. Just make the cosmetics really cool. I could see a whole trader revamp for reaper points being a thing that could be useful for years to come unlike how once you reach 158 it’s useless. Maybe even extending reaper points to include other useful but not power creep items. I can see a number of cool mounts only gotten with reaper points such as an zombie ostrich or pterodactyl. Maybe some neat weapon cosmetics like an axe dripping in blood or a cool hat. Make a bunch of them each year so there is an excuse to keep grinding but still keep reaper a challenge without the creep.

So yeah nobody would lose their earned points, just use them in a different way. And players without them aren’t at a disadvantage. But it solves the worst part of reaper difficulty, in the fact that the enhancement trees introduced a new power creep and diminished the challenge.

[Yamani]

I'm imagining the rage that would occur if reaper trees were suddenly turned into cosmetic only -- or do you have a suggestion for something that would be given to the players who have spent years building up those trees that would prevent a riot?

Lol yep, that rage would be pretty high. Like the actual player base would visit the forums for once, not just the vocal minority that it consists of now. Many of us spent a ton of time and money earning those points, and to have them taken away for cosmetics would not only be rage inducing but basically thievery of my time/money spent on those. No, cosmetics do NOT justify it.

Not to mention it would also be the death of reaper, and raid pushing.

[amessi1]

Would you possibly consider putting this bonus in Knife Specialization instead?

I was thinking the same, please ????

(Rogue, Assassin, t5, hp comp bonus)

[Tilomere]

There are MANY other ways to keep a 25% bonus restricted to melee that don't kill current characters or drastically reduce the build space. Why not use one (as suggested in pass-1 thread) instead of hacking up all the trees trying to fixup the loss of EDF HP 1x1 for each and every build?

Because the player base won't let them, chicken and egg, which is why we are here now.

[Bjond]

Druid
T3,4,5 - Nature's Protector - Ursa line's restriction updated to be usable by druids in bear form either using shield or wearing medium or heavier armor.

This one really hurts. Not as a comparison between pre&post U57, but by comparing FVS & Cleric to Druid. Under U57, I can make a heal-tank using FVS or Cleric with a deep dive into Warsoul/priest and stay pure or mostly pure.

A druid heal tank can't avail themselves of the protector bonus even if they're in heavier armor and shield. They pretty much have to go with Druid/FTR for Stalwart and then likely give up on L9 spells if they want more than T3 Stalwart.


Because the player base won't let them, chicken and egg, which is why we are here now.

Heh. I don't think players are the cause here. Removing EDF is a laudable goal. I just think SSG is "stuck" on the T5 method like a Labrador with a Tennis Ball. When that finally gets lobbed into our court, it's gonna be covered in stinky dog-slobber.

Here's an idea that leans in a bit to the general T5 idea of a deep investment in a melee tree:

Keep the existing T5 ideas, but in those trees with T5 HP bonuses, duplicate that bonus in the L18 Core. So, a build can go deep and take the T5 or go wide and grab the C5. It's still 31+ AP in the same tree, just a LOT more flexible. This would cover all but one of the subT5 builds where I've used EDF in the past.

[SpardaX]

Lol yep, that rage would be pretty high. Like the actual player base would visit the forums for once, not just the vocal minority that it consists of now. Many of us spent a ton of time and money earning those points, and to have them taken away for cosmetics would not only be rage inducing but basically thievery of my time/money spent on those. No, cosmetics do NOT justify it.

Not to mention it would also be the death of reaper, and raid pushing.

They were never meant to have trees, or any power of any kind.
Reaper was always meant to just be a challenge difficulty, and was not meant to do anything beyond that. No power creep. No system behind it. No getting items and the meta scaled or defined by it. Just purely optional opt in challenge difficulty options. That was what the devs said, right up to the final Lams showing reaper off. And then it gets released on live, and has these silly trees.

I don't know who was behind it, but I think it was one of the worst decisions of the game. But that ship has sailed, sunk, and has been looted by divers at this point. But just in case you were unaware, they DO have plans for reaper, and those plans at least as of a while ago, did involve the trees going away. But not being replaced with just cosmetic stuff. Instead it was / is / should eventually be? (according to dev talks) replaced with a system where not only do you benefit with power, but people with less reaper power than you would also benefit from your power. (Just not to the degree that you do)

[Cashiry]

To those who are complaining about T5 being to high for the Hit point enhancements. your not losing anything.

if you can’t allocate 2 AP’s in any given tree to get the additional HP’s. 32 total spent in T5 don’t know what to tell you.

are there builds out there that aren’t putting at leas 32 AP’s into 1 specific enhancement tree? I haven’t ran across one. I guess it could happen.

[Xharath]

Second Wind Auto granted for fighter level 2. Active this ability to regain 50% of your max hit points. 15 second cool down. You can used this once per rest, with an additional charges gained at Fighter levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. At level 8 Second Wind removes negative effects like the Panacea spell.

Nice that a fighter can heal itself, ill be blunt.

IT SUCKS! a fighter should not be able to heal itself its a fighter, not a cleric, ranger, druid, etc etc.

if a fighter gets a auto granted feat that enables him to cast 6x a heal like spel at level 20 (lets say at level 20 youll have 1200- 2000 hp it heals or 600-1000 points 6x with the damage reduction etc etc, overpowered is a understatement

again it sucks.

why not grant it for rogue then or give a other type of fighter a healing prop o wait thats called a paladin.............
or let it fight with hands and give it like a healing finishing move

[Xharath]

i feel that the rogue is being passed in this overhaul btw, (the melee, i must say the ranged rogues are OP as is)
you should consider making the assasinate non blockable (except red bosses), raise the dodge cap and make reapers not see all sneak) then skip the HP increase on the rogue, Just saying

[slarden]

It seems some people playing custom builds feel they are losing hp with these changes. The changes only help me.

Why not just keep EDF with it's restrictions as option for flavor builds. That way nobody can claim to be nerfed. As long as it doesn't stack with the new abilities I see no opportunity for abuse.

[WarDestroyer]

While most classes are getting +25% competence HP and no longer as restricted to touch-cast, Perfect Natural Fighting is still granting only +15% HP for wolves. Could you bump that to 20%, which becomes 25% with the primal bonus in NW?

[slarden]

i feel that the rogue is being passed in this overhaul btw, (the melee, i must say the ranged rogues are OP as is)
you should consider making the assasinate non blockable (except red bosses), raise the dodge cap and make reapers not see all sneak) then skip the HP increase on the rogue, Just saying


Second Wind Auto granted for fighter level 2. Active this ability to regain 50% of your max hit points. 15 second cool down. You can used this once per rest, with an additional charges gained at Fighter levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. At level 8 Second Wind removes negative effects like the Panacea spell.

Nice that a fighter can heal itself, ill be blunt.

IT SUCKS! a fighter should not be able to heal itself its a fighter, not a cleric, ranger, druid, etc etc.

if a fighter gets a auto granted feat that enables him to cast 6x a heal like spel at level 20 (lets say at level 20 youll have 1200- 2000 hp it heals or 600-1000 points 6x with the damage reduction etc etc, overpowered is a understatement

again it sucks.

why not grant it for rogue then or give a other type of fighter a healing prop o wait thats called a paladin.............
or let it fight with hands and give it like a healing finishing move

I have no issues with fighters getting this as an assassin player and it seems they are mostly complaining it's not good enough - I don't know I didn't test it.

Rogue is fine at heroic levels with wand and scroll healing using UMD at least up to about R4. I would love to see a core or ability in shadowdancer increase the % for wand and scroll healing to match spellpower increases - maybe +10% per epic level. I would also like to see an ability that applies quicken to scrolls that rogues could get. The ability to unlock epic healing scrolls with favor would also be nice.

[Cashiry]

Why not just keep EDF with it's restrictions as option for flavor builds. That way nobody can claim to be nerfed. As long as it doesn't stack with the new abilities I see no opportunity for abuse.

no one should be losing HP’s from not having EDF. You still have the combat feets that now provide 25% each up to 100%. Your just getting access to each 25% sooner for each feet than having to wait until lvl 21.

[slarden]

no one should be losing HP’s from not having EDF. You still have the combat feets that now provide 25% each up to 100%. Your just getting access to each 25% sooner for each feet than having to wait until lvl 21.

the enhancements are a new addition to most. Enhancement trees.

tanks who were using EDF just need to re allocate 3 AP’s. Not a big deal.

It seems that way to me, but others seem to disagree



One of my builds is staying about the same. Most are getting hammered.

I think it's more of a hard nerf to build creativity. It only buffs what I'd call stale retread builds that blindly dump a lot of AP deep into a single tree.


As far as I can tell the fvs/cleric nerf is offset by the heroic durability change for divine melees. A few casting class melee trees are getting less than 20%, but very much worth the reduction to remove EDF in my opinion.

So not sure exactly how builds are getting hammered either, but it seems if they left EDF as an option, nobody except caster divines are getting any kind of nerf. If they are healing bot, take the shield feats and you are fine. If you are an aoe casting divine losing those hp - working as intended as far as I can tell.

But if there are some flavor builds I don't see much harm keeping EDF as a legacy option if that is what the complaint is about. Perhaps there is something bigger I am missing.

[Cashiry]

It seems that way to me, but others seem to disagree



As far as I can tell the fvs/cleric nerf is offset by the heroic durability change for divine melees. A few casting class melee trees are getting less than 20%, but very much worth the reduction to remove EDF in my opinion.

So not sure exactly how builds are getting hammered either, but it seems if they left EDF as an option, nobody except caster divines are getting any kind of nerf. If they are healing bot, take the shield feats and you are fine. If you are an aoe casting divine losing those hp - working as intended as far as I can tell.

But if there are some flavor builds I don't see much harm keeping EDF as a legacy option if that is what the complaint is about. Perhaps there is something bigger I am missing.

i just re read the opening post. Does not mention 25% per combat feet up to 100% that was proposed in preview 1. I am assuming that is now gone and they added enhancements to each tree that could have benefited from using EDF In It’s place.

[Stravix]

Hey this is an update to the hit point pass for Lammania preview 2. It's more buffy and less nerfy to people who are really on the high end, has some fighter perks in it.

*snip*

-Heroic Durability updated:

Heroic Durability - +30 Hit Points. In addition, for every melee combat style feat you take you gain a 25% bonus to the hit points gained from your class levels. Epic and Legendary levels count at half value. This bonus can only stack up to 100%.




i just re read the opening post. Does not mention 25% per combat feet up to 100% that was proposed in preview 1. I am assuming that is now gone and they added enhancements to each tree that could have benefited from using EDF In It’s place.

It's in there.

[Cashiry]

It's in there.

thanks, I thought it was. I guess I’m not sure why people are complaining about the new enhancements then. You really only need to take 2 AP’s from somewhere else and put them into the respective hp enhancements for your primary tree

[Torc]

While most classes are getting +25% competence HP and no longer as restricted to touch-cast, Perfect Natural Fighting is still granting only +15% HP for wolves. Could you bump that to 20%, which becomes 25% with the primal bonus in NW?

It should be 20% in this preview, if it's not it's a bug. I'll double check it's working.


-T

[Garix]

It's not end of the world but it's a minor annoyance (for me a least): Bladeforged Paladins.

To get the 25% HP in KoTC I have to take Healing Amp Enhancements. My current BF Pally is fully built and geared around repair amp so spending 4aps for bonuses I have no need for hurts a little.

Any chance of adding Repair Amp as well? Even half the value of heal amp would take some of the sting out.

[droid327]

It's not end of the world but it's a minor annoyance (for me a least): Bladeforged Paladins.

To get the 25% HP in KoTC I have to take Healing Amp Enhancements. My current BF Pally is fully built and geared around repair amp so spending 4aps for bonuses I have no need for hurts a little.

Any chance of adding Repair Amp as well? Even half the value of heal amp would take some of the sting out.

Imagine if you were a paladin/apostate split and you were forced to take neg amp penalties :)

[mikarddo]

i just re read the opening post. Does not mention 25% per combat feet up to 100% that was proposed in preview 1. I am assuming that is now gone and they added enhancements to each tree that could have benefited from using EDF In It’s place.

The +25% from combat feats is only to the small amount of hp gained from class levels - not to everything. So its not the same kind of "25%" :)

[ice584]

for every melee combat style feat you take you gain a 25% bonus to the hit points gained from your class levels. Epic and Legendary levels count at half value. This bonus can only stack up to 100%.

This simply requires you to spend a feat, and you'll permanently gain the bonus hitpoints, is that correct?
If not, and you only benefit from the hitpoints when you're actually in that combat style, what happens when a melee Fighter switches to a scroll to cast Raise Dead?

My expectation here is that every nuking caster will just either take some TWF or THF feats depending on whether he's wielding dual-sceptres or a qstaff and suffer virtually no ill effects (other than the feat slot(s)).
Is there some other drawback for casters that I'm totally missing here? Like some casting penalties while in a combat style or something?

I mean, if a caster was already taking the Toughness and Epic Toughness feats, I would expect it to be a no-brainer to take two of the Combat Style feats instead for +50% hitpoints, and probably not too much harder to justify another feat or two for another 25-50%.

I get that there's a lot of moving parts here, but this still just feels to me like a definite win for casters and a giant, fat question mark for melees.

[Cashiry]

This simply requires you to spend a feat, and you'll permanently gain the bonus hitpoints, is that correct?
If not, and you only benefit from the hitpoints when you're actually in that combat style, what happens when a melee Fighter switches to a scroll to cast Raise Dead?

My expectation here is that every nuking caster will just either take some TWF or THF feats depending on whether he's wielding dual-sceptres or a qstaff and suffer virtually no ill effects (other than the feat slot(s)).
Is there some other drawback for casters that I'm totally missing here? Like some casting penalties while in a combat style or something?

I mean, if a caster was already taking the Toughness and Epic Toughness feats, I would expect it to be a no-brainer to take two of the Combat Style feats instead for +50% hitpoints, and probably not too much harder to justify another feat or two for another 25-50%.

I get that there's a lot of moving parts here, but this still just feels to me like a definite win for casters and a giant, fat question mark for melees.


all you need is four combat style feats. It does not look at what weapon your carrying.

casters aren’t going to take TWF or THF or some other combat feet. Not sure where you think casters are going to benefit from this.

[jskinner937]

all you need is for combat style feats. It does not look at what weapon your carrying.

casters aren’t going to take TWF or THF or some other combat feet. Not sure where you think casters are going to benefit from this.

Agreed. They gimp themselves if taking more than 1 feat. And I hate hearing the arguments of melee vs casters. People act like they only play either melee or caster. This is simply an illusion created to make a point. Everyone that plays DDO for any length of time has alts or has TRed.

Agree melee needs a buff, but come on with the fake perspective.

[elvesunited]

all you need is four combat style feats. It does not look at what weapon your carrying.

casters aren’t going to take TWF or THF or some other combat feet. Not sure where you think casters are going to benefit from this.

Let's say a sorceror or alchemist caster takes a melee feat. ( and has the BAB and prereqs for it )

At level 20 ( melee feat ) : 30 hp
At level 20 ( toughness ) : 22 hp

At level 30 ( melee feat ) : 42 hp ( 170 / 4 )
At level 30 ( toughness ) : 32 hp

That makes it marginally better than toughness. But let's expand this to epic toughness for those caster so desperate for hp they're willing to give up on spell casting feats for it.

At level 30 ( 2 melee feats ) : 85 hp ( 170 / 2 )
At level 30 ( toughness + epic toughness ) : 82 hp

So, yes a caster so thirsty for hp they are willing to waste feats on it is marginally better off going with combat feats over toughness. But not by much. You want to even things up? Then just modify Toughness so it provides bonus hp just like melee feat does but really it is not that much hp we're talking about here.

[Xgya]

*snip*
So, yes a caster so thirsty for hp they are willing to waste feats on it is marginally better off going with combat feats over toughness. But not by much. You want to even things up? Then just modify Toughness so it provides bonus hp just like melee feat does but really it is not that much hp we're talking about here.

This proves the Toughness line is long overdue the upgrade treatment.

Devs are essentially ready to outright GIVE the benefits of the feats on top of existing feats combat builds are almost forced to take.

What if Toughness, a feat mostly taken by the squishier characters, also got some side benefit, like increasing max MRR? As someone that has recently played Sacred Fists a lot, compared to other Paladins, magic is PAINFUL. Painful enough that I might waste a feat on it? Maybe not, but I can at least see the draw.

[DRAXnekro]

Let's say a sorceror or alchemist caster takes a melee feat. ( and has the BAB and prereqs for it )

At level 20 ( melee feat ) : 30 hp
At level 20 ( toughness ) : 22 hp

At level 30 ( melee feat ) : 42 hp ( 170 / 4 )
At level 30 ( toughness ) : 32 hp

That makes it marginally better than toughness. But let's expand this to epic toughness for those caster so desperate for hp they're willing to give up on spell casting feats for it.

At level 30 ( 2 melee feats ) : 85 hp ( 170 / 2 )
At level 30 ( toughness + epic toughness ) : 82 hp

So, yes a caster so thirsty for hp they are willing to waste feats on it is marginally better off going with combat feats over toughness. But not by much. You want to even things up? Then just modify Toughness so it provides bonus hp just like melee feat does but really it is not that much hp we're talking about here.

How about leave the toughness line of feats as they are but make them scale with combat feats just like class base dice will. This might solve some hp problems for tanks or other hp hungry melee. We might even see some non-CON based tanks with enough hp.

[Abilbo]

edited, as I saw my question answered.

[Tilomere]

I noticed this was called the 2 Hit Point Pass:

https://i.postimg.cc/G2Y0VJhK/2-Hit-Point-Pass.png

Since the stat squish my uberpletionist melee wiz gets killed in 1 hit from multistrike and dual wield champions unless it plays in US:

https://i.postimg.cc/D7pqZYdv/Screen-Shot-2021-09-11-171341-0.jpg (https://i.postimg.cc/D7pqZYdv/Screen-Shot-2021-09-11-171341-0.jpg)

This patch nerfs my zombie melee by 25% hp, and it was already getting killed in 1 hit. So technically, shouldn't this be called the 1 Hit Point Pass?

[TueNictGut]

Would you possibly consider putting this bonus in Knife Specialization instead?

Signed

Also do the same for ninja and henshin instead of creating a new t5

[TueNictGut]

all you need is four combat style feats. It does not look at what weapon your carrying.

casters aren’t going to take TWF or THF or some other combat feet. Not sure where you think casters are going to benefit from this.

Ranged Rangers are still a problem though, as they get the bonus from their class automatically, as far as i can see.

[nectmarpowerhand]

I'm really unsure what this is going to mean for my first life dwarf 14 Animal Domain Cleric / 6 Zombie Palemaster. With the current build, which I really don't want to change, I will no longer have a Competence bonus to HP at all, and Animal Domain is getting lessened. I don't like knights transformation for the character, because of the touch range limitation (unclear if that will still exist after this). I'm taking T5 Palemaster for the Profane % bonus to HP from Zombie, so I won't have Divine Bastion from Warpriest. I may be overseeing something, but it appears to be removing a large chunk of my HP on a first life character that my level 32 character plan on DDOBuilder shows will have 5,230 HP. I feel like I could lose 500+ HP on my build.

[Stravix]

I'm really unsure what this is going to mean for my first life dwarf 14 Animal Domain Cleric / 6 Zombie Palemaster. With the current build, which I really don't want to change, I will no longer have a Competence bonus to HP at all, and Animal Domain is getting lessened. I don't like knights transformation for the character, because of the touch range limitation (unclear if that will still exist after this). I'm taking T5 Palemaster for the Profane % bonus to HP from Zombie, so I won't have Divine Bastion from Warpriest. I may be overseeing something, but it appears to be removing a large chunk of my HP on a first life character that my level 32 character plan on DDOBuilder shows will have 5,230 HP. I feel like I could lose 500+ HP on my build.

KT will not have the touch restriction now (per what I remember). Will you be running combat feats? Because if so, you will gain 2 additional HP per cleric level (+8 from combat feats, but -6 from animal nerfs), +8 per wizard level (due to +6 from combat feats and +2 from HD increase), -1 HP per Epic level (+5 from combat feats, but -6 from animal nerf) for a total of +64 base HP, but a need to get a competence bonus from somewhere.

You are likely best to get warpriest t4 and core 4, if HP is that big of a concern, as between comp and sacred, you would get +30% HP

[elvesunited]

--- Big winners ---

Ranged characters with ranger levels: +25% base hp for 2 ranger levels. +50% for 6 ranger levels. +75% for 11 rangers levels.

Most Melee builds: Get a few hundred hp from melee combat feat base hp bonus and Comp hp from Tier 5.

Many Thrower builds: Get the comp hp bonus on a lot of cases. Given how few throwers remain after getting nerfed so hard in recent times I can't object.

A few bow / crossbow builds: Paladin KOTC ranged / Swashbuckler Inquistitve light x-bow / Gnome battle engineer using light x-bow manage to sneak through the cracks.


--- Small Winners ---

Ranged or caster characters that got a hit die increase: They can get more by choosing melee combat feats but that is only slightly better than just taking toughness feats so not worth worrying about.

Melee favored and melee animal domain clerics as the melee feat hp bonus ( 210 at level 30 ) is offset by the nerf ( -180 hp at level 30 )


--- Got Nothing ---
Warlock, druid, cleric ( non-animal ) casters.


--- Big Losers ---

Favored souls and clerics casters with animal domain: It's just a straight nerf.

Palemaster melees that go tier 5 in pale master: Should be easily fixable as Tier 5 Ascendant Shroud could be used to give comp hp for zombies and perhaps even vampires.

Those few melee builds that do not go Tier 5 in any melee tree and no longer gets comp hp

That one guy who made a Tier 5 Harper melee character on a bet. ( No comp hp ) Not me. But statistically he probably exists.

[nectmarpowerhand]

KT will not have the touch restriction now (per what I remember). Will you be running combat feats? Because if so, you will gain 2 additional HP per cleric level (+8 from combat feats, but -6 from animal nerfs), +8 per wizard level (due to +6 from combat feats and +2 from HD increase), -1 HP per Epic level (+5 from combat feats, but -6 from animal nerf) for a total of +64 base HP, but a need to get a competence bonus from somewhere.

You are likely best to get warpriest t4 and core 4, if HP is that big of a concern, as between comp and sacred, you would get +30% HP

I do have Core 4 in Warpriest for the Sacred, and all Shield Mastery feats. This was intended to be an HP character. I am proud of my 5k HP on a first life with no Reaper. I guess I will have to see if I can swing the Knight's Transformation since the penalty will be removed, and I really don't want that Competence bonus loss. Thanks for the info. I'll just hold my breath a little longer. This is just Preview 2 of 3!

[JollySwagMan]

Second Wind sounds pretty sweet!

HP from combat style feats will work pretty well for a lot of folx. I like the idea that someone posted about giving bonuses for less common martial feats too.
On a fighter love tangent: how about a stacking bonus to tactics DCs for each tactical attack feat? :D

I didn't take GTHF on most recent melee, felt like ITHF was a good break point + seemed like was mostly tanking single target red names.
Extra 25% HP is probably worth trading Improved Shield Mastery for though...

[nectmarpowerhand]

I do have Core 4 in Warpriest for the Sacred, and all Shield Mastery feats. This was intended to be an HP character. I am proud of my 5k HP on a first life with no Reaper. I guess I will have to see if I can swing the Knight's Transformation since the penalty will be removed, and I really don't want that Competence bonus loss. Thanks for the info. I'll just hold my breath a little longer. This is just Preview 2 of 3!

Well, I didn't notice that the Competence bonus was attached to IMPROVED Knight's Transformation. Since that is t5, I won't be able to get it. Simply put, if they don't include a sizable Competence bonus in the Palemaster tree, I am going to lose 500+ HP. Right now the DDOBuilder says that I am gaining 726 HP from my 25% Competence bonus from Epic Defensive Fighting. Not much happy about that.

[Maldrick]

Well, I didn't notice that the Competence bonus was attached to IMPROVED Knight's Transformation. Since that is t5, I won't be able to get it. Simply put, if they don't include a sizable Competence bonus in the Palemaster tree, I am going to lose 500+ HP. Right now the DDOBuilder says that I am gaining 726 HP from my 25% Competence bonus from Epic Defensive Fighting. Not much happy about that.

I played a build based on a similar premise. Mine was 12 cleric, 5 wizard, 3 fighter and used Stalwart Defense. If you had the points Stalwart Defense will still be giving 25% hp.

[steadlere]

I realy think the monk should be on par with fighter, ranger and pali for it's base HP tier. having cleric, druid, bard that can have a lot more healing and spell casting possibility being in the same category as a monk that is pretty much limited to melee dps(if not a shuriken build - wich is on par with ranger) is stange to me.

[elvesunited]

I realy think the monk should be on par with fighter, ranger and pali for it's base HP tier. having cleric, druid, bard that can have a lot more healing and spell casting possibility being in the same category as a monk that is pretty much limited to melee dps(if not a shuriken build - wich is on par with ranger) is stange to me.

Interestingly with this update the hit die is being modified to match that of 5th Edition with one exception

D&D 5th edition
-----------------------------------------------
d6 Sorcerer, wizard
d8 Artificer, bard, cleric, druid, monk, rogue, warlock
d10 Fighter, paladin, ranger
d12 Barbarian

[Lotoc]

It could make sense to give the Dark Apostate tree a 15% competence bonus in the t5, specifically to Ultimate Heresy.
The imbue dice in DA are very costly for a caster build using the tree and you'd basically only really invest that heavily in them if you intended to hit enemies with your weapons, so it definitely wouldn't be unreasonable to grant a melee orientated Apostate the health bump.
(also probably should give like 7.5% comp HP to Zombie Shroud in PM and have ascendant shroud double it)

[VinoeWhines]

Hey this is an update to the hit point pass for Lammania preview 2.

Rogue
T5 Assassin Light Armor Mastery Rank 3 - Grants a 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Acrobat- Staff Specialist - Grants 25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.

Epic Defensive Fighting: Will be removed from the game. (still)



Would you possibly consider putting this bonus in Knife Specialization instead?



I was thinking the same, please ????

(Rogue, Assassin, t5, hp comp bonus)

I would think also it would be received well in Knife Specialization or Deadly Strikes in the Enhancement Tree.

But as many others have stated, the removal of Epic Defensive Fighting could be stomached better, since that ability wasn't based on T5 Trees, if it's going to be scribed into Enhancement Trees, maybe it should be in Tier II and III melee Enhancement trees or even better yet the Cores of Melee Trees in Cores II and III and to be non stackable from other Enhancement Trees or just like, being stated it caps at 25%, no matter what Melee Core you choose, to allow build variety to remain and not be forced to take a Tier V tree.

I use Tier V Trees so it would viable but I know there are multi classes that don't use any Tier V Enhancements(or not Tier IV even?) to be able to thinly spread their builds to life.
Build diversity shouldn't be shrunk with each occurring update.

My build got screwed over in how Shadow Dancer's lost so many utilitarian abilities and having a second form of assassinating(Executioners Strike/Shot), making an aggro puppet in Shadow Manipulation to help out defensively(had a long cooldown),and Consume(Implosion) was a help when you got hit out of Stealth and drew aggro.

The proposed: Sleight of Hand - Wand and Scroll Mastery doesn't stack at all, like it was suppose to, it doesn't.

Sleight of Hand should be:

Sleight of Hand: Traps and Vial Mastery: You can make Noisemaker Traps or Noisemaker Vials(on exploding they stick to door/wall and make ticking sound), with the ability to place or throw in stealth.

(Tier 1): If you have the Trapmaking Feat, you can now add your Sneak Attack Dice and Damage to Traps and Vials.
(Tier 2): You can use the higher of Melee or Range Power to Traps and Vials you Throw.
(Tier 3):You can inscribe scrolls as Traps and Alchemical Recipes as Vials.

----------------------------

Thanks again Torc for your endless work in putting your time into this game.
That goes to all the developers/producers/designers/testers, with a presence here and all the silent majority in the background coding away.

[Bjond]

Barbarians
T5 - Ravager - Uncanny Balance gains +25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T5 - Frenzied Berserker Healing or Hurt: Either of these enhancements selected grant a +25% competence bonus to hit points in addition to it's original bonuses.
T4 - Occult Slayer - Rune Carved Armor - 2 AP You gain a +25% competence bonus to max hit points and +2 to all saves vs magic while wearing medium or heavy armor.

I like seeing the bonus at T4 instead of T5, but why restrict occult slayer to med/hvy (the worst & weakest kind of melee armor). It's already the least used Barb Tree. It also nerfs existing light & cloth slayer builds, basically requiring them to drop T5 slayer for FB or Ravager.

If it's just to compensate AP spend balance for a T4 feature, then OS should have a T5 25% as well without armor requirements.

[Mighty_Bozo]

Hey this is an update to the hit point pass for Lammania preview 2. It's more buffy and less nerfy to people who are really on the high end, has some fighter perks in it.

[...]

Epic Defensive Fighting: Will be removed from the game. (still)
PLEAAAASE ALSO MAKE Druids shape persist through death. It's such a pain in the ass when I'm tanking and for any reason my bear dies

[Stradivarius]

I like seeing the bonus at T4 instead of T5, but why restrict occult slayer to med/hvy (the worst & weakest kind of melee armor). It's already the least used Barb Tree. It also nerfs existing light & cloth slayer builds, basically requiring them to drop T5 slayer for FB or Ravager.

If it's just to compensate AP spend balance for a T4 feature, then OS should have a T5 25% as well without armor requirements.

I think that Barbarians requiring Medium/Heavy armor might be a typo, Barbarians can only wear up to medium armor. Not sure.

[Urklore]

New Fighter Perk:

Second Wind: Auto granted for fighter level 2. Active this ability to regain 50% of your max hit points. 15 second cool down. You can used this once per rest, with an additional charges gained at Fighter levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. This can be used while Crowd Controlled. At level 8 Second Wind removes negative effects like the Panacea spell.


Question: I assume this works the same regardless of race (AKA Warforged and Bladeforged)? What about if you are in an undead form?

[elvesunited]

I think that Barbarians requiring Medium/Heavy armor might be a typo, Barbarians can only wear up to medium armor. Not sure.

A lot of barbarians wear heavy armor though either by picking up the feat or multi-classing. I'm with previous poster. The armor requirement is out of left field. If someone wants to be an occult slayer barbarian who wears light armor or pajamas or fight in the buff then they shouldn't be penalized for it for not getting comp hp.

[Tilomere]

Hmm, nvm, we'll just make it work.

[Nandos]

A lot of barbarians wear heavy armor though either by picking up the feat or multi-classing. I'm with previous poster. The armor requirement is out of left field. If someone wants to be an occult slayer barbarian who wears light armor or pajamas or fight in the buff then they shouldn't be penalized for it for not getting comp hp.


The enhancement is called Rune Carved Armor. Maybe it should just require armor of any kind? (light/medium/heavy)

[shmagmhar]

i would suggest dont mess with the class hit dice . because dont mess with the OG D&D rules . i know the game is way differnt than 3.5 . I played this game before i got to play tabletop D&D and it was helpful that some of the things where the same and it helped me learn