How much spell penetration does my wizard need?

[Erokir]

Is there some sort of animation that lets you know when you fail a spell penetration check on a mob?

I'm finding it difficult to keep checking the die roll each time I cast a CC or IK spell. And consequently, I'm not sure how much spell penetration I need.

When SAVE appears over the mob's head, I gather that means I've failed my DC check.
When IMMUNE appears over the mobs head, I'm guessing that means either that the mob is of a race that is immune to such spells, or that the mob has immunity due to an enchantment, such as Deathblock or Death Ward. Is this correct?

But, does anything appear over a mob when you fail a spell penetration check? Is there anyway to know that you've failed a spell penetration check other than by keeping an eye on the die?

[J1NG]

But, does anything appear over a mob when you fail a spell penetration check? Is there anyway to know that you've failed a spell penetration check other than by keeping an eye on the die?

There's a (slightly transparent) blue oval shield that covers a target temporarily when you fail to bypass the Spell Resistance of the target.

Small blue sparks are when they are immune.

A hexagon (octagon?) appears over the target when they make a save. (simulating making a save on dice)

As for how much Spell Pen you need, that will depend on what content you're aiming to tackle (the Spell Resistance enemies have depends on a variety of factors, quest level, CR rating, etc. hence why there's no real guide to what amount is needed). Some will need more than what is available, some will be far too easy. Overall, it's just grab as much as you can always, for any sort of DC spell casting.

J1NG

[Bjond]

Overall, it's just grab as much as you can always, for any sort of DC spell casting

https://media.tenor.com/6h0isZVRJTUAAAAC/billions-money.gif

[Tyrande]

[...]

But, does anything appear over a mob when you fail a spell penetration check? Is there anyway to know that you've failed a spell penetration check other than by keeping an eye on the die?

The blue oval over the monster's head. It does not always show that if you as a player is not paying attention.

As for as for the needs of spell penetration, your wizard does not need them 90% of them time.

It is only needed when your wizard is fighting against monsters that have spell resistance. i.e. Drow (dark elves from Menace of the Underdark expansion, The Mines of Tethyamar), Devils and Demons, Duergar and anything with "Fiendish" in their names.

My recommendation, just take 3 wizard past lives followed by 3 favored soul past lives. Your wizard will have 9 spell penetration there without even taking a feat or enhancement. If your wizard really wants it, get a spell penetration 9 accessory.

Also, if your wizard is primarily casting damage spells, i.e. ice berg, meteor swarms, etc. Your wizard does not need spell penetration.

[LurkingVeteran]

1) As others have noted, look for the blue oval outline.

2) Monster SR at least used to be based on their CR, basically, CR + 0 to 10 depending on type. Drow, duergar and some devils/demons are the ones with the highest SR. You don't necessarily need to reach no-fail on Drow for spell pen to be useful, but consider some combination of items, PLs, the Magus ED and spell pen feats.

[Arkat]

If your target is a Drow, as much spell pen as you can possibly squeeze into your build.

Their spell resistance is unreasonably high.

[Erokir]

I'm trying to decide whether to spend my last ED point on the fourth core Magus ability, which grants +7 spell penetration vs. taking Evasion in the Primal Avatar ED.

I'll start looking for the blue oval to gauge the adequacy of my current spell penetration.

[Tyrande]

I'm trying to decide whether to spend my last ED point on the fourth core Magus ability, which grants +7 spell penetration vs. taking Evasion in the Primal Avatar ED.

I'll start looking for the blue oval to gauge the adequacy of my current spell penetration.

Why not get both. You probably can remove some things in Primal Avatar or something else in some other trees that you do not need.

Remember the 4th core also grants +1 DC if there are no other 4th caster core marked. Evasion is also important in that traps in Legendary dungeons on R6+ can be deadly one shot thing... and those enemy casters with evocation spells... hope your wizard has insightful reflexes to make the evasion more useful.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

Why not get both. You probably can remove some things in Primal Avatar or something else in some other trees that you do not need.

Remember the 4th core also grants +1 DC if there are no other 4th caster core marked. Evasion is also important in that traps in Legendary dungeons on R6+ can be deadly one shot thing... and those enemy casters with evocation spells... hope your wizard has insightful reflexes to make the evasion more useful.

Third core of Shadowdancer also gives Evasion. As to how much is needed, all of it! Every last drop.

From DDOWiki,

73 Spell Penetration with Past Life Feats and temp buffs (71 if Spellsinger - Already counted above)

https://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_penetration

[Arkat]

From DDOWiki,

73 Spell Penetration with Past Life Feats and temp buffs (71 if Spellsinger - Already counted above)

https://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_penetration

Woefully out of date.

[DaggomaticDwarf]

Woefully out of date.

Thanks for the heads up. Since no one was answering that question, this was all I could find.

[Tyrande]

Third core of Shadowdancer also gives Evasion.

True, but you're asking a caster to take shadowdancer, which is aweful in its spell power and spell casting and a buggy tree. The only good thing about the tree is the Weird spell and evasion, and ok, maybe the meld part. But that thing does not work if no mantle.



As to how much is needed, all of it! Every last drop.

From DDOWiki,
[...]

I have to respectfully disagree. My sorcerer does not have any spell penetration feats and she's doing fine in R8 -> R10s, The Mines of Tethyamar, i.e. versus drow and demons. Although failing spell penetration occasionally, but still doing fine. Its out of date because item stats have squished, including spell resistance and spell penetration.

Also, NOTE: some (Conjuration) spells like Web does not have any spell resistance for it. I believe Evard's Black Tentacles too. Wiki said there is SR, but on my warlock I never seen blue oval things for it.
Also, Prismatic Spray (which can stone, poison and erase), also does not have spell resistance. That's why you don't really need spell penetration.
Turn to Frog (alchemist) spell also does not have any spell resistance. In fact, none of the alchemist spells have spell resistance.

Have the other wizards do the mass holds or divine caster do the triple cometfalls Celestial Bombardment (or Greater Command, do divines do these anymore? *grins*). :rolleyes:

Or just stay back & run with a few alchemists and watch them frogging and booming... no spell penetration required.

[Fisto_Mk_I]

True, but you're asking a caster to take shadowdancer, which is aweful in its spell power and spell casting and a buggy tree. The only good thing about the tree is the Weird spell and evasion, and ok, maybe the meld part.

It's anyway best 2nd tree for any DC Wizard exactly because Weird, nice epic moment and good epic strike, add scalable force damage to any spell and debuff to bosses.


But that thing does not work if no mantle.

Of course, it's wrong. ;)

[Erokir]

It's anyway best 2nd tree for any DC Wizard exactly because Weird, nice epic moment and good epic strike, add scalable force damage to any spell and debuff to bosses.

Interesting. I might give Shadowdancer a try as my second tree instead of Primal Avatar.

Why are there offensive wand/scroll enhancements? Does anyone use wands or scrolls offensively? They don't benefit from gear, ability, feat or most enhancements, right?

[Tyrande]

Interesting. I might give Shadowdancer a try as my second tree instead of Primal Avatar.

Why are there offensive wand/scroll enhancements? Does anyone use wands or scrolls offensively? They don't benefit from gear, ability, feat or most enhancements, right?

Its probably there for the future. Severlin is planning to give everyone a special "wand" only slot on the character sheet. As for DC and spell power, or benefits from feats, we do not know yet.

[Splunge]

I ran R10 mines of tethyamar a few days ago, and the non-champ drow had spell resistance of about 67. I don't know if there's anything higher in the game, and I don't know if champs have a bonus to spell resistance, but if you're in the mid 60s, you should be fine. I actually swapped out the spell pen feats on one of my toons because he was at 77.

[Erokir]

I ran R10 mines of tethyamar a few days ago, and the non-champ drow had spell resistance of about 67. I don't know if there's anything higher in the game, and I don't know if champs have a bonus to spell resistance, but if you're in the mid 60s, you should be fine. I actually swapped out the spell pen feats on one of my toons because he was at 77.

I haven't seen any Spell Penetration stat on the character sheet. Am I overlooking it?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Mississippee Queen, my bard ALWAYS carries maximum spell pen from multiple sources. If you are asking how much spell pen do you need, then my thought process is ALL THE ABOVE. MAX MAX MAX.

But for my bard, crown control IS HER WEAPON.

[adamkatt]

a better question is how much spell pen is possible and just shoot for that!

[Wizard1406]

Are 3 wizard and 3 FVS lives still required to hit spell penetration these days? Or are they optional ? (after getting x1 of each for compl. and wizard active PL feat)

[Splunge]

I haven't seen any Spell Penetration stat on the character sheet. Am I overlooking it?
Find a quest where you know the mobs have spell resistance. (The drow at the beginning of Servants of the Overlord is really easy to get to if you've already done The Lords of Dust.) Cast a spell that has a SR check at one of the mobs. The roll along with the base spell pen for that spell will show up on your screen (in the same place that would normally show your to-hit roll for melee) along with a message telling you if it succeeded or not.

[Splunge]

Are 3 wizard and 3 FVS lives still required to hit spell penetration these days? Or are they optional ? (after getting x1 of each for compl. and wizard active PL feat)

You don't have to have the max possible spell pen available in the game to hit your spell pen checks. You don't have to have those feats if you have most of the rest of the available spell pen, but if you have them, it allows you to drop some of the other sources. For example, you might be able to drop three spell pen feats and take something else, or you might be able to put fewer points into magister and put them somewhere else instead.

Also, as someone else pointed out, you don't necessarily have to be able to hit all of your spell pen checks, especially if you're a wizard and have so many other spell options. Lots of mobs don't even have spell resistance, and even for ones that do, it's usually lower than what the drow in R10 tethyamar have. If you have good but not maxed spell pen, in the rare cases where you're having trouble, you'll lose your instakills but there are still plenty of CC options that don't require spell pen.

[Splunge]

If you have good but not maxed spell pen, in the rare cases where you're having trouble, you'll lose your instakills but there are still plenty of CC options that don't require spell pen.

One other point is that just because you aren't hitting all of your spell pen checks, it doesn't mean that you're going to fail all of them. If a 67 spell pen gives you 100% success against non-champ drow in R10 mines, you're still going to hit it 50% of the time even with a 57.

[Raithe]

Mississippee Queen, my bard ALWAYS carries maximum spell pen from multiple sources. If you are asking how much spell pen do you need, then my thought process is ALL THE ABOVE. MAX MAX MAX.

But for my bard, crown control IS HER WEAPON.

I don't think people are fully describing the trade-offs regarding spell penetration. Maximum spell penetration involves having bonuses to spell penetration that will take gear bonuses that could be used for other purposes, and as has been mentioned, some content (perhaps entire quest packs) will have no spell resistance involved at all. Here are some important considerations:

1) Drow seem to be the only adversaries that get spell resistance based on its own CR level. Demons and devils typically have some standard value that may or may not differ based on the level and difficulty of the dungeon.
2) Your caster level is equivalent to your base spell penetration bonus. After level 20, your caster level only increases every 2 levels with the Epic Knowledge feat, and it increases regardless of Heroic class configuration.
3) Many constructs essentially have infinite spell resistance (though it may actually just have some number like spell resistance 99 or 999).
4) Some crowd control spells do not have spell penetration checks. Web and Earthquake are notably in this category.
5) Fascinate is not subject to spell resistance.
6) In order to get Epic Spell Penetration (+4), you need to take both of the standard spell penetration feats (+2 each).
7) There are weapons that I believe are still available (perhaps some of the Eveningstar challenge weapons still give it) that have Shattermantle or Improved Shattermantle, though that effect isn't particularly good for mass crowd control effects. Note that in this case, the person using the shattermantle effect doesn't have to be the caster.

I personally build casters (all of whom need a decent DC for the content they are running) that both have spell penetration and some that don't. On the ones that don't, I make sure to have a good assortment of spells that don't require spell penetration checks. On no caster would I consider wearing a full-time spell penetration bonus as optimal.

[Erokir]

You don't have to have the max possible spell pen available in the game to hit your spell pen checks. You don't have to have those feats if you have most of the rest of the available spell pen, but if you have them, it allows you to drop some of the other sources. For example, you might be able to drop three spell pen feats and take something else, or you might be able to put fewer points into magister and put them somewhere else instead.

Also, as someone else pointed out, you don't necessarily have to be able to hit all of your spell pen checks, especially if you're a wizard and have so many other spell options. Lots of mobs don't even have spell resistance, and even for ones that do, it's usually lower than what the drow in R10 tethyamar have. If you have good but not maxed spell pen, in the rare cases where you're having trouble, you'll lose your instakills but there are still plenty of CC options that don't require spell pen.

Spending those feats on other things (DC and Spell Power) is what I have in mind.

What wizard CC options don't require spell penetration?

[Erokir]

Find a quest where you know the mobs have spell resistance. (The drow at the beginning of Servants of the Overlord is really easy to get to if you've already done The Lords of Dust.) Cast a spell that has a SR check at one of the mobs. The roll along with the base spell pen for that spell will show up on your screen (in the same place that would normally show your to-hit roll for melee) along with a message telling you if it succeeded or not.

Thanks.

[Splunge]

What wizard CC options don't require spell penetration?
Greater shout (stun) and web (entangle) are the ones I use the most, but there are also sunburst (blind), cyclonic blast (knockdown), electric loop (daze), and sonic blast (single target daze). There might be others, but that's what I can remember off the top of my head. You check the wiki to see if I missed anything. My wizard also has the burst of glacial wrath feat, which is another crowd control spell without spell resistance.

[Bjond]

anyone use wands or scrolls offensively

Well, I find using scrolls and wands in combat to be quite offensive.

BTW, I've used Ice & Sleet storm scrolls, but more to see that it's possible. Swapping and scrolling does work and since those have no save, it doesn't matter that they're scrolled. But it's danm tedious. So, I gave up the notion.

[archest]

on your character sheet where the + is on the side tab under spell casting is a stat for spell penitration I have 10 in my FvS.
I would think it possible you have enough spell penitration but not enough spell dc for enchantment or necromancy?

and if your playing quests over your level... the resistance saves are higher for the monsters .

[Tyrande]

I would think it possible you have enough spell penitration but not enough spell dc for enchantment or necromancy?

and if your playing quests over your level... the resistance saves are higher for the monsters .

The question is why though. Why playing the quests under level when
the same XP points are granted at reaper 1 at over 2 levels. i.e. why play base Quest Level > Character Level?

[archest]

The question is why though. Why playing the quests under level when
the same XP points are granted at reaper 1 at over 2 levels. i.e. why play base Quest Level > Character Level?

more quest level : a base level 16 quest is level 18 at elite or reaper level
so if your level 16 your DC is level 16 and the Monsters dc is level 18 on elite or reaper.
that equals 2 more spell penitration and 2 more will save or fortitude save points you must over come.
you see a lot of that playing 14's at level 16
if your a run along and join at level 14 and your trying to hit with spell pen and enchantment dc will save or necro fortitude save
your looking at + 6 to over come .

[Tyrande]

more quest level : a base level 16 quest is level 18 at elite or reaper level
so if your level 16 your DC is level 16 and the Monsters dc is level 18 on elite or reaper.
that equals 2 more spell penitration and 2 more will save or fortitude save points you must over come.
you see a lot of that playing 14's at level 16
if your a run along and join at level 14 and your trying to hit with spell pen and enchantment dc will save or necro fortitude save
your looking at + 6 to over come .

Then the answer is don't do it. Don't do spells that requires spell penetration when joining under level.
i.e. use web or Greater Color Spray (in Feydark Illusionist) for CC,

as for IK, sorry, you're out of luck here, just use damage spells.