Least popular classes nerfbat

[FURYous]

I have been playing this game since the start and lately I have noticed some odd things about some of the nerfs.

Let me preface by saying overall I am happy with the changes being made, the bank, the item overhaul, the decrease in lag, ETC.

But there are a few things that just baffle me.

The latest one is the HP nerf to FvS and Clerics, it isn't bad enough that clerics are inferior in everyway to FvS but to take the animal domain HP down 60%? Also doing the same to FvS. Do we have too many people playing healers?

The same seems to being done to tanks, why boost melee HP but not only reduce tank HP but force them to one use one ED just to try and keep what they have now?

Alchemist, this is the least played class according to https://www.ddoaudit.com/servers due to the last over nerf, I keep hoping these stats would be apparent that maybe you went too far but that doesn't seem to be the case.

https://i.imgur.com/5diwfcU.png

Healers, always so hard to find good healers mostly because they are boring as dirt to play. To be a good healer you pretty much get to stare at little red health bars and miss out on the rest of the game. Take a page out of EQ2's book and make them fun, let them target the Boss mob and any heals cast goes to that mobs agro (you already have target of target built in, I use it all the time). This lets the healer nuke and heal without having to switch targets. How about other things to spice them up? Better CC? Make the Dark Apostate actually good instead of a half pale master with garbage DCs?

How about something to make clerics shine in their own light, there is nothing a cleric can do that a FvS can't do a LOT better. Even turn undead with the new EDs. The Dark Apostate isn't a viable class in end game and barely a flavor build in leveling up. Instead of taking HP away from them, how about tanking them up a bit? Anything to actually encourage people to play them.

TLDR: take a look at the least run quests/classes/areas of the game and boost them a little to get more life out of them. All those quests that no one runs (threnal and the like) boost their loot tables or XP (or both) until people run them again. Classes, the same thing. Alchemist, Healers (i said healers because there are more tanks with cleric and FvS levels then healers) Monks need love too.

What you did with Bards and TOEE is GREAT! Spread that love around a bit ;)

[Reztroll]

Why play a dps, when I can play a dps, healer, tank, that can implode!

[helpfulguy1234]

You lost me at "Turn undead with the new EDs".

Epic/legendary turning isn't really a thing. Completely OP in heroics, garbage in epics.

[Aelonwy]

Its bugging me that Inquisitor is about to get nerfed hard... AGAIN. I hope more people hop on to the Lammania Imbue thread and make themselves heard for whatever that is worth here. They really don't like having fun ranged builds.

As to the nerf to Animal Domain, I'd bet half my Astral Shards that's more balancing for HC BS. Too many people playing healers on HC to keep themselves survivable when the poo hits the fan.

[jskinner937]

Personally, I think reactive healing or aura healing (maybe increase the size in epics and LE) should be a bigger push into end game content. As you said, playing a dedicated healer is boring as watching an egg boil. If you were free do other actions, healing wouldnt be so bad of a task. Bard with healing song is a perfect example of how divine healing should be driven at end game. And give it to hirelings as well so that they might actually be useful in epics and legendary content.

[FURYous]

You lost me at "Turn undead with the new EDs".

Epic/legendary turning isn't really a thing. Completely OP in heroics, garbage in epics.

This was just to point out that clerics no longer get anything to make them unique.

Oh and turn undead is spectacular in end game if you have undead to fight, it works through doors, wall and ceilings and can get high enough to work in R10 RL (the last time I played with it, everything after RL didn't have enough undead to make it worth it)

[rabidfox]

Personally, I think reactive healing or aura healing (maybe increase the size in epics and LE) should be a bigger push into end game content. As you said, playing a dedicated healer is boring as watching an egg boil. If you were free do other actions, healing wouldnt be so bad of a task. Bard with healing song is a perfect example of how divine healing should be driven at end game. And give it to hirelings as well so that they might actually be useful in epics and legendary content.

In hard content it's not even reactive healing, it's constant healing. Most people are often just above a 1-shot (or 2-shot) from mobs killing them (HP in 1-shot territory being outside the scope of a healer saving them). So there's times where I'm just casting non-stop mass cures because if they're not topped back up constantly, the next hit will likely kill them. There's also the risk with a smaller heal not being a crit and thus not healing for enough to top someone off before the next hit kills them (where a crit heal would've healed for enough to keep them alive on that next hit). Spike damage and the spike healing is pretty intense, where if not already casting the heal before the damage hits that then a reactively healing's cast might not go off before they're dead. The gear and builds to function at this level of healing leave me hitting like a wet sponge and useless for soloing (well unless I want solo on normal/hard or spending minutes fighting each trash pull in war of attrition where I do little damage but I can heal thru any damage); and it leaves bored if I'm not in a party that's taking huge damage spikes. The game has created a situation where some content needs ultra-specialized dedicated heals but it makes us bored and meaningless in any other content.

[FURYous]

Personally, I think reactive healing or aura healing (maybe increase the size in epics and LE) should be a bigger push into end game content. As you said, playing a dedicated healer is boring as watching an egg boil. If you were free do other actions, healing wouldnt be so bad of a task. Bard with healing song is a perfect example of how divine healing should be driven at end game. And give it to hirelings as well so that they might actually be useful in epics and legendary content.


In hard content it's not even reactive healing, it's constant healing. Most people are often just above a 1-shot (or 2-shot) from mobs killing them (HP in 1-shot territory being outside the scope of a healer saving them). So there's times where I'm just casting non-stop mass cures because if they're not topped back up constantly, the next hit will likely kill them. There's also the risk with a smaller heal not being a crit and thus not healing for enough to top someone off before the next hit kills them (where a crit heal would've healed for enough to keep them alive on that next hit). Spike damage and the spike healing is pretty intense, where if not already casting the heal before the damage hits that then a reactively healing's cast might not go off before they're dead. The gear and builds to function at this level of healing leave me hitting like a wet sponge and useless for soloing (well unless I want solo on normal/hard or spending minutes fighting each trash pull in war of attrition where I do little damage but I can heal thru any damage); and it leaves bored if I'm not in a party that's taking huge damage spikes. The game has created a situation where some content needs ultra-specialized dedicated heals but it makes us bored and meaningless in any other content.

This!

[PapaToad51]

Its bugging me that Inquisitor is about to get nerfed hard... AGAIN. I hope more people hop on to the Lammania Imbue thread and make themselves heard for whatever that is worth here. They really don't like having fun ranged builds.

As to the nerf to Animal Domain, I'd bet half my Astral Shards that's more balancing for HC BS. Too many people playing healers on HC to keep themselves survivable when the poo hits the fan.

My guild has come to the same conclusion Aelonwy. Their recent 'adjustments' are being put in place because of HC. Apparently, HC is a real moneymaker, so much so, that they are willing to sacrifice more of their dwindling player base.

[jskinner937]

In hard content it's not even reactive healing, it's constant healing. Most people are often just above a 1-shot (or 2-shot) from mobs killing them (HP in 1-shot territory being outside the scope of a healer saving them). So there's times where I'm just casting non-stop mass cures because if they're not topped back up constantly, the next hit will likely kill them. There's also the risk with a smaller heal not being a crit and thus not healing for enough to top someone off before the next hit kills them (where a crit heal would've healed for enough to keep them alive on that next hit). Spike damage and the spike healing is pretty intense, where if not already casting the heal before the damage hits that then a reactively healing's cast might not go off before they're dead. The gear and builds to function at this level of healing leave me hitting like a wet sponge and useless for soloing (well unless I want solo on normal/hard or spending minutes fighting each trash pull in war of attrition where I do little damage but I can heal thru any damage); and it leaves bored if I'm not in a party that's taking huge damage spikes. The game has created a situation where some content needs ultra-specialized dedicated heals but it makes us bored and meaningless in any other content.

The point of reactive, aura or buff healing is to only worry about bars that drop fast. And most good melee players learn to dart away if in trouble. If you have a heal over time effect like a bard song on steroids, they can recover quickly without the constant need for attention. And topping off would not even be a concern.

[EinarMal]

Alchemist is an outlier to me, objectively the class is powerful. I find it not fun to play, the main issue for me is the super slow healing and difficulty in targeting heals. They need basically two changes to make them much more fun.

1. Two versions of healing vials, current and "bottle smash" at their feet healing around the caster
2. Let quicken work on healing vials

[SpartanKiller13]

The latest one is the HP nerf to FvS and Clerics, it isn't bad enough that clerics are inferior in everyway to FvS but to take the animal domain HP down 60%? Also doing the same to FvS. Do we have too many people playing healers?

The same seems to being done to tanks, why boost melee HP but not only reduce tank HP but force them to one use one ED just to try and keep what they have now?

Well, per Torc the design intention was at most 50-100 HP loss for high-HP toons, so hopefully preview 2 will be a lot better for tanks lol.


Your base hit point score is a good 500 points higher than the top range of what we were expecting after the stat squish. (Congrats?) We were kind of expecting the tip top people to maybe drop 50-100 hit points which in the grand scheme of things probably won't change the time to kill on them on any meaningful difficulty.

Also not really sure what you mean tanks becoming forced into one ED - they're already forced into US which is aight IMO but that's not gonna change either way with a HP pass. Fury tanking might be a thing for lower difficulty/self-sustain tanks/off-tanking, but I'm pretty sure even Barb full-tanks are gonna be using US.


You lost me at "Turn undead with the new EDs".

Epic/legendary turning isn't really a thing. Completely OP in heroics, garbage in epics.

Having just come off a 18/2 Pally/Cleric build that had endgame reaper tactics, GCS, and turn undead - I disagree. With moderate investment (I used Chainmail Coif (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legendary_Chainmail_Coif)) it's extremely strong in a variety of content. I went Water Domain so it even lets you merc elementals, which vastly broadens the effectiveness.

Even deathblock champs get stunned forever, which is pretty neat compared to most instakills.


Oh and turn undead is spectacular in end game if you have undead to fight, it works through doors, wall and ceilings and can get high enough to work in R10 RL (the last time I played with it, everything after RL didn't have enough undead to make it worth it)

Try an elemental domain, even if you only get one of them per hit it's hilariously good with like 50 charges lol. It feels like at least 50% of quests I got to nuke at least a chunk of.

[boredGamer]

In hard content it's not even reactive healing, it's constant healing. Most people are often just above a 1-shot (or 2-shot) from mobs killing them (HP in 1-shot territory being outside the scope of a healer saving them). So there's times where I'm just casting non-stop mass cures because if they're not topped back up constantly, the next hit will likely kill them. There's also the risk with a smaller heal not being a crit and thus not healing for enough to top someone off before the next hit kills them (where a crit heal would've healed for enough to keep them alive on that next hit). Spike damage and the spike healing is pretty intense, where if not already casting the heal before the damage hits that then a reactively healing's cast might not go off before they're dead. The gear and builds to function at this level of healing leave me hitting like a wet sponge and useless for soloing (well unless I want solo on normal/hard or spending minutes fighting each trash pull in war of attrition where I do little damage but I can heal thru any damage); and it leaves bored if I'm not in a party that's taking huge damage spikes. The game has created a situation where some content needs ultra-specialized dedicated heals but it makes us bored and meaningless in any other content.

Your healer can easily built to do something else. Either intimitank or dc/nukes. If you go dc/nukes route you can easily heal because you’ll be built for spell power. Intimitank is obviously more specific but it’s not like you have nothing else to do.

If you mean melee well, yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a good melee healer anyway. Can’t stop swinging sword fast enough to do other things.

I personally love the challenge of high reaper healing pugs were everyone is fighting a different doom. Coming out of those alive is hilarious.

[rabidfox]

Your healer can easily built to do something else. Either intimitank or dc/nukes. If you go dc/nukes route you can easily heal because you’ll be built for spell power. Intimitank is obviously more specific but it’s not like you have nothing else to do.

Sure, if I redid my feats, my heroic AP, my epic destinies, and burnt a blood of the dragon to swap spells around then I could; so basically if I was a fully different setup not designed for pushing raids...

I was pointing out where things are at in hard content for healer play and where it leaves those build when they're not in that content. The game design pushes healers into a tight corner and when one wants to just go solo something, well, it just leaves them as meh to play the rest of the time.

[SoVeryBelgian]

Its bugging me that Inquisitive is about to get nerfed hard... AGAIN.


What is it? Nerf number 4? First DPS, then Doubleshot, then stacking Weapon Att...

Poor inquis.


As for me I almost exclusively swap between Arti, Alche, Sorc, Wlk and Fighter. Haven't played Barb in years. Nor Paladin.


Alche and Arti are my favorites. Eberron flavor FTW.

[boredGamer]

Sure, if I redid my feats, my heroic AP, my epic destinies, and burnt a blood of the dragon to swap spells around then I could; so basically if I was a fully different setup not designed for pushing raids...

I was pointing out where things are at in hard content for healer play and where it leaves those build when they're not in that content. The game design pushes healers into a tight corner and when one wants to just go solo something, well, it just leaves them as meh to play the rest of the time.

Heh ? Specify what reaper raid you’re trying to push. And then don’t expect anyone to care balancing around that.

I run 17/3 and 20 pure in r10s and can do exactly what I’m saying without any gear or feat swapping of any sort.

[Stoner81]

What is it? Nerf number 4? First DPS, then Doubleshot, then stacking Weapon Att...

Poor inquis.


As for me I almost exclusively swap between Arti, Alche, Sorc, Wlk and Fighter. Haven't played Barb in years. Nor Paladin.


Alche and Arti are my favorites. Eberron flavor FTW.

They also had their Law Dice reduced and the DPS from the IPS nerf hammer... so 7 nerfs including the upcoming one.

Stoner81.

[KoobTheProud]

At this point the Inquisitor nerfs very much resemble the Warlock nerf cycle about 18 months after the class released. Slow rolling but consequential and now apparently continuous until the enhancement tree reaches the power level the devs feel is appropriate.

This is very much for the same reason that Warlock kept getting nerfed: the enhancement tree was released in an extremely OP state, just as Warlock was released in an extremely OP state.

Nobody can reasonably find otherwise. If you played Warlock at the time the class was released you knew it was OP and was just off the charts compared to anything but a few niche builds powered by lots of past lives. If you played Inquisitor at release you knew the same.

I was definitely not happy about the Warlock nerf cycle and I have not played a warlock since it ended (3 pasts in Warlock at that point anyway) however I had no doubt that nerfing Warlock was a better answer than raising the power level 50% in virtually every other class. It just had to be done.

I am much happier with the Inquisitor nerfs because that kind of carpal tunnel syndrome should not be put in anybody's path.

BTW, the only likely reason that Alchemist has not been nerfed back to normality is that it is a play style that most people do not like to run and it has enough play skill involved in terms of working the timing and aiming that not a lot of people are playing it. There is a very good chance one of these nerf cycles that people will start playing Alchy's as a preference and then it will get nerfed significantly as it begins to show up in the charts.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Playing a healing cleric or bard is not about boredom, its about OPTIONS. Its a FASCINATING playstyle choice if built right, IF it fits your playstyle. You want to BE PREPARED.

I find that there's a ton of fun to be had because you can build them to MULTI-TASK -- and that in essence is the key to specializing in healing. It's about giving yourself as many ways to heal as possible and that means COMMUNICATING those options to your party mates who very well might not be aware of your abilities and character's options.

All these what if's and options can be a terrific experience for a healer because of the importance of your role to the party. In the thousands of raids I've healed in DDO since 2006, I find that the BARD and CLERIC are my favorites because it's the PARTY that makes every run FUN and they will say that it's the healer that makes it possible. So the BOND that you have with each party makes it what it is each time you go out on a run.

[Karthunk]

it isn't bad enough that clerics are inferior in everyway to FvS

This is just flat out wrong atm. The only major advantage FVS had was the core levels to spells and that is gone.

Having a domain is 200% better than anything FVS brings to the table.

[FURYous]

This is just flat out wrong atm. The only major advantage FVS had was the core levels to spells and that is gone.

Having a domain is 200% better than anything FVS brings to the table.

FvS get higher spell points:
A Favored Soul also gets bonus spell points from his Charisma or Wisdom modifier (higher ability applies). Favored Soul also gain double the spell points from items
Clerics gain additional spell points when they increase level or by having high wisdom


Primary stat for hit and damage with favored weapons (helps with tank builds)
Grace of Battle (https://ddowiki.com/page/Grace_of_Battle)
Knowledge of Battle (https://ddowiki.com/page/Knowledge_of_Battle)


Free HP or SP like the Animal Domain or Magic Domain (if you choose HP, you get more HP and SP than a Cleric, if you choose SP, you get a lot more SP than a cleric and the same HP).
Stout of Heart (https://ddowiki.com/page/Stout_of_Heart)
Purity of Heart (https://ddowiki.com/page/Purity_of_Heart)


Clerics can get more Necro DCs by giving up the the FvS HP but if you want a instant kills, you won't even get close to a Wizard. R10 level DCs are too high for Clerics ATM. I know I have a uber completionest that has tried, and the best he could do is about 10 DCs behind a Wizard (still 3 higher than a FvS but with less SP).


Stacking Energy Absorptions


Free Leap of Faith (https://ddowiki.com/page/Leap_of_Faith) comes in pretty handy


Damage Reduction (https://ddowiki.com/page/Damage_Reduction)

[Karthunk]

FvS get higher spell points:
A Favored Soul also gets bonus spell points from his Charisma or Wisdom modifier (higher ability applies). Favored Soul also gain double the spell points from items
Clerics gain additional spell points when they increase level or by having high wisdom


Primary stat for hit and damage with favored weapons (helps with tank builds)
Grace of Battle (https://ddowiki.com/page/Grace_of_Battle)
Knowledge of Battle (https://ddowiki.com/page/Knowledge_of_Battle)


Free HP or SP like the Animal Domain or Magic Domain (if you choose HP, you get more HP and SP than a Cleric, if you choose SP, you get a lot more SP than a cleric and the same HP).
Stout of Heart (https://ddowiki.com/page/Stout_of_Heart)
Purity of Heart (https://ddowiki.com/page/Purity_of_Heart)


Clerics can get more Necro DCs by giving up the the FvS HP but if you want a instant kills, you won't even get close to a Wizard. R10 level DCs are too high for Clerics ATM. I know I have a uber completionest that has tried, and the best he could do is about 10 DCs behind a Wizard (still 3 higher than a FvS but with less SP).


Stacking Energy Absorptions


Free Leap of Faith (https://ddowiki.com/page/Leap_of_Faith) comes in pretty handy


Damage Reduction (https://ddowiki.com/page/Damage_Reduction)

Spell points are a non issue for clerics that pick an actual nuking domain. I was always running out of mana with my FVS before I run out of mana with my cleric.

A FVS can not keep up with a fire domain cleric as far as DPS goes.

HPs are getting nerfed soon so that is a non-issue for this comparison.

Physical damage resistance means nothing when you are getting hit for 500+ dmg on a normal attack.

I stand by what I said: domains > any benefit from being a FVS

There is a good reason no one plays the class.

[FURYous]

Spell points are a non issue for clerics that pick an actual nuking domain. I was always running out of mana with my FVS before I run out of mana with my cleric.

A FVS can not keep up with a fire domain cleric as far as DPS goes.

HPs are getting nerfed soon so that is a non-issue for this comparison.

Physical damage resistance means nothing when you are getting hit for 500+ dmg on a normal attack.

I stand by what I said: domains > any benefit from being a FVS

There is a good reason no one plays the class.

Play the way you like. I will play the way I like and we shall both have fun :)