Ability Damage on players: please cap it at 0

[Firebreed]

Having run the Isle of Dread saga a few dozen times now, I often find myself having my CHA reduced by the Kopru, resulting in my character becoming helpless.

Now, this is fine by itself; I'm not on a high CHA toon after all. I'm also not asking for suggestions on how to counteract this, such as equipping a CHA item when I see a Kopru.

The time it takes for a point of an ability score to regenerate is also okeyish (I kinda wish is it was quicker, but whatever).

But the fact that ability damage can send an ability score into the negatives (despite what the character sheet shows, this is reproducable by making note of how long it takes you to get back to an ability score of 1) means that it can take ages for my helplessness to be gone.

As such, I suggest ability damage be capped at 0, meaning after a minute or so your ability score is guaranteed to return to 1 and thus you will no longer be helpless.

[Tyrande]

This has already been nerfed, you know. Back then when wounding/puncturing, weakening/enfeebling, ... was a thing...
Any stats that gone to 0 or below, the character or monster dies. Now, its just helpless.

The solution is to use Fate Singer T4: Majesty, which makes the character immune to charisma damage.

[Firebreed]

Please read the post carefully.


This has already been nerfed, you know. Back then when wounding/puncturing, weakening/enfeebling, ... was a thing...
Any stats that gone to 0 or below, the character or monster dies. Now, its just helpless.

I often find myself having my CHA reduced by the Kopru, resulting in my character becoming helpless.

Now, this is fine by itself.




The solution is to use Fate Singer T4: Majesty, which makes the character immune to charisma damage.

I'm also not asking for suggestions on how to counteract this, such as equipping a CHA item when I see a Kopru.

[Fauxknight]

Just wait till you do high reaper and they do like 180+ cha damage per hit. Tanking them the only hope my pally has, who doesn't have terrible cha, is to stun them before I go one shot helpless.

[droid327]

Think the issue there would be it makes regen-over-time effects essentially immunity to stat damage, because the first tick restores you to function regardless of how much damage they do

[adamkatt]

On r4 ive been hit with 120 cha.. those end boss kopru(sp) are sooo much fun!

[Firebreed]

Think the issue there would be it makes regen-over-time effects essentially immunity to stat damage, because the first tick restores you to function regardless of how much damage they do

Remind me, which effects are you referring to?

[Steeme]

I think a reasonable request would be that, if your ability score is already negative, then repeated spamming of the same ability on the player does not bring it further negative.

[droid327]

Remind me, which effects are you referring to?

Well, for one:

https://ddowiki.com/page/Regenerate

"Every two seconds 2 ability point damage is healed"

I'm sure there are other effects too that can passively heal ability damage, ie while helpless

Separately, it means Lesser Restoration is all you need to restore functionality, which devalues Restoration and GResto for anything but neg levels...and I'm not sure if there are any effects that can passively apply a LResto on you, but that would also become effectively immunity to status damage

[droid327]

I think a reasonable request would be that, if your ability score is already negative, then repeated spamming of the same ability on the player does not bring it further negative.

I think the only ones that do are Shadow strength drain-on-hit and CHA damage in Dreaming Dark, but that's 1 point at a time. The debuffs most people think of as non-trivial ability drains - Kopru and Fomorian curses, e.g., or the classic STR drain in Irestone - are debuffs, not damage, so only the highest version should apply each time. They can reapply it again and if it rolls higher, you take slightly more, but it shouldn't self-stack

[jskinner937]

If I am not mistaken, CON damage drained to zero still results in death. This is actually the effect that picking up the docent after someone has in PoP.

As far as charisma damage goes, it is the most common ability damage and I think it is a bad game design altogether when 1 mob (boss or normal) can drain you to zero instantly with one hit, no matter the difficulty, with no save, defense or ability to self restore. I know the fatesinger ED has it, but there is no other ability and even in heroics this monster effect exists. Just like players that spammed stat damage was nerfed, I feel like the devs should consider removing or changing this effect from the game. Just replace with a stun, or make it temporary stat damage that is removed after 5 secs with an extra sec per skull in reaper. Maybe even give divines an inherent defense so that they can spam heals to others.

Anything put in the game, that has no true work around is a terrible design. Part of the fun is developing strategy to overcome a situation.

[Steeme]

I think the only ones that do are Shadow strength drain-on-hit and CHA damage in Dreaming Dark, but that's 1 point at a time. The debuffs most people think of as non-trivial ability drains - Kopru and Fomorian curses, e.g., or the classic STR drain in Irestone - are debuffs, not damage, so only the highest version should apply each time. They can reapply it again and if it rolls higher, you take slightly more, but it shouldn't self-stack

Are you sure? I was quite certain that each strike by Ego Whip applied stat damage to your character. If you were at -10, an additional strike of -50 would bring it to -60. I could be mistaken that, instead of applying additional ability damage, it is simply replacing the existing damage with a refreshed amount.



when 1 mob (boss or normal) can drain you to zero instantly with one hit, no matter the difficulty, with no save, defense or ability to self restore

Ego Whip has a save.

[droid327]

Are you sure? I was quite certain that each strike by Ego Whip applied stat damage to your character. If you were at -10, an additional strike of -50 would bring it to -60. I could be mistaken that, instead of applying additional ability damage, it is simply replacing the existing damage with a refreshed amount.


Not entirely, my experience in IoD is still limited. If it shows a debuff on your Examine panel, though, it shouldn't self stack...but it might just do actual stacking damage

[Seph1roth5]

Somewhat related but symbol of pain lasts way too long and is difficult(impossible?) to cure. Really sucks to finish a quest and then have to sit there and wait.

[Xgya]

I'd instead suggest capping it in the negatives, somewhere around -5 or -10, but preventing damage while already at 0 or less.

So you still get hit with a rather debilitating CC, it also prevents you from acting for a while, as currently intended, without forcing you to turtle somewhere and hope whatever hit you to -4000 Charisma just doesn't find you again.
If they want it to be especially deadly, just make the stun from initially going negative last longer. Seems like a proper compromise.
Frankly, if I'm going to be unable to play for the next hour while waiting for stat regen, I'd rather be dead.

[thegreatcthulhu]

I'm going to have to agree with OP here, but I think the real problem are the Kopru themselves. Their charisma damage ability IMO needs to turned down or reworked so it isn't so... obnoxious. It turns legendary elite / reaper runs on dungeons like Whispers of Return into silly "uh oh, charisma is zero, gotta run away like a chicken now and wait for my charisma to come back" nonsense. I guess it's funny but it gets old really fast, especially on the end bosses who you can't stun.

I know they probably smell bad or something, but I can't fathom they smell millions of time worse than unbathed Trogs or the sewers of Wheloon prison.

[LightBear]

It isn't just Kopru that do large cha damage, those pesky spiders do as well.
Or shadows, but they do str damage instead.

And yeah, have the actual stat not being able to go below zero is a must.
Also, why are these things obfuscated so much by the devs in the past?

Oh, and I am talking about the player side of things, including hires, pets, summons and friendly npcs.
Anything on the other side of the battle field can be drained just fine into nothingness.

[Firebreed]

I think the only ones that do are Shadow strength drain-on-hit and CHA damage in Dreaming Dark, but that's 1 point at a time. The debuffs most people think of as non-trivial ability drains - Kopru and Fomorian curses, e.g., or the classic STR drain in Irestone - are debuffs, not damage, so only the highest version should apply each time. They can reapply it again and if it rolls higher, you take slightly more, but it shouldn't self-stack

Has anybody confirmed whether the Kopru/Fomorian debuffs stack to infinity or if only the highest one applies?

[DRoark]

The solution is to use Fate Singer T4: Majesty, which makes the character immune to charisma damage.

That's the problem, DDO treats Damage and Drain as two different things. Immune to Damage or not, you can be DRAINED to (0).

I have Majesty, still get Drained. Never rmade sense, it's like being Immune to Piercing, and being told, "Oh, that's not Damage, the Dagger caused HP Drain".

[Maldorin]

I'm going to have to agree with OP here, but I think the real problem are the Kopru themselves. Their charisma damage ability IMO needs to turned down or reworked so it isn't so... obnoxious. It turns legendary elite / reaper runs on dungeons like Whispers of Return into silly "uh oh, charisma is zero, gotta run away like a chicken now and wait for my charisma to come back" nonsense. I guess it's funny but it gets old really fast, especially on the end bosses who you can't stun.


The heal spell completely removes ability damage. So parking a hire or a party member in a "safe" location that can throw a heal is sometimes very effective in these situations.

[Firebreed]

That's the problem, DDO treats Damage and Drain as two different things. Immune to Damage or not, you can be DRAINED to (0).

I have Majesty, still get Drained. Never rmade sense, it's like being Immune to Piercing, and being told, "Oh, that's not Damage, the Dagger caused HP Drain".

Wait whaaaaat? Those 2 are different things? Any examples of what falls under each category?

[Steeme]

That's the problem, DDO treats Damage and Drain as two different things. Immune to Damage or not, you can be DRAINED to (0).

I have Majesty, still get Drained. Never rmade sense, it's like being Immune to Piercing, and being told, "Oh, that's not Damage, the Dagger caused HP Drain".

I don't think that's how it works.

Ego Whip causes CHA damage to your character (and it shows you how much on each strike).

T4 Fatesinger doesn't actually provide "immunity", per se, it only provides rapid recovery of CHA damage (mentioned by Lynn in a thread some months ago when the ability was broken).

From my experience, even if you are in the CHA negatives, you can continue to get hit with Ego Whip. I'm not sure how far negative you can go.

[adamkatt]

The heal spell completely removes ability damage. So parking a hire or a party member in a "safe" location that can throw a heal is sometimes very effective in these situations.

Maybe the heal spell does but when i use heal scroll it does not heal all ability damage.

[Smokewolf]

Consider that mobs can self restore their stat-damage without any spells or 3rd party aid. While doing it a a rate that in many cases makes stat-damage a useless game mechanic. (Especially in Reaper) Players on the other hand, can't self heal thru massive stat-damage with anything other than time. You can't cast, use scrolls or imbibe a potion. Thus for all intensive purposes, the player may as well be dead.

IMO this is not a balanced system and only leads to a bunch of players feeling cheated. Consider that the spell Enervention had similar issues and was later corrected after much negative player feedback.

-Smoke

[Wizard1406]

Agree.

I could be an interesting mechanic for groups, making heal/restore important.

But since you have to solo often, making you instantly helpless with no way to get rid of it makes for bad gameplay. You can use a hireling in most situations but it's problematic (we all know hirelings bug out out often), and a pure time sink. (park hire far away, get 0 cha, run to hire, attack again, 0 cha, run to hire....)