pure sacred fist just feels like a weak paladin

[Deathmaster35]

Just went to 30 as sacred fist(and now stuck in broken reincarnation since epic reincarnate made me a paladin) and it was just weaker than a two handed paladin. Less damage and less durability. being slightly faster(160 instead of 140) was nice, but the missing PRR, MRR and damage output, as well as the primary damage being single target, just made me feel weak.

The Ki spells are pretty nice, but dont make up for the loss of strikethrough for using a two hander. The cleaves in the tree just seemed like wastes compared to the spells. I wish I had respected to try the cleaves again at 32 to see if they were better than the ki spells for AE then, but at 20 the spells were just better.

the single target damage wasnt bad, but wasnt two hander paladin level of good.

I think the core issue is the limited MRR andPRR on cloth and that two handed fighting is just better than other fighting styles. If two handed fighting wasnt overpowered like it is now compared to the other styles, handwrap sacred fist probably would be a good alternative of higher single target damage for lower durability. instead we get something that is just inferior but has nice past life feats(that are currently in a broken situation with epic reincarnates changing your class thus blocking you from getting them)

[dogsoldier]

I agree, it really needs to multiclass to make it functional. And I think the developers are going to have a hard time seeing that this is the case. The reason is that Sacred Fist is probably one of the best ways to do a Racial 1-20 life, if you totally ignore epics (TR at 20), and forget about even considering legendary altogether. It is strong in heroics, but falls behind in epics (no Shuriken proficiency in Zawabis Revenge lol, go tank her), and then falls on its face and splatters as blindingly obviously unviable in legendary content (how's that 50 MRR cap working out for you now?).

[dogsoldier]

Even Alchemists, Wizards, Sorcerers in Robes are going to have 80 MRR Cap in Legendary with literally zero investment because both of the Sharn and Ravenloft cloth sets have +30 MRR cap built in, and they have a wide selection of stay at distance and crowd control, or just nuke from orbit options. Cloth Casters get 80 MRR, but a Pajama Melee gets 50, makes no sense, unless you are only listening to a cabal of pet project pukes on discord. Just normalize all Pajama / Robes as 50 MRR Heroic, 60MRR Epic, 80MRR Legendary, and this problem is largely solved.

[dogsoldier]

Also, while it is strong in heroics actually, not the best, but pretty strong, it is better with a Monk level, at least you get Shuriken proficiency, and monk stances. And then with the Monk stances you can better utilize abilities in the GMoF destiny, many giving double bonus if you are in the respective stance.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Devs will make handwraps popular if it kills them.

[Deathmaster35]

just to point out, if you play Drow you get shuriken proficiency, and with the +chr and +dex they work pretty well as a sacred fist


Something I left out, the untyped damage(that should be light, but isnt) they add to every attack makes their base hits fairly high, the issue is that it doesnt multiply from crits and you have to have the spell going that only has a 20 second duration to get any bonus damage on crits. That spell is marginally even a damage boost as it only lasts 20 seconds and takes away about 1 and half seconds of attacking to cast it. So the attacks you miss out on while casting probably would have done more damage than the spell adds. With haste boost I am pretty sure it added more than it took away by casting it followed by haste boosting, but using it without haste boost seemed to break about even

[dogsoldier]

Devs will make handwraps popular if it kills them.

Heh, yeah. I thought for sure Cordovan was giving us a Cove Clue, when he said they were keeping new Items "under wraps", and a new good pair would show up there. They do make really good ooze beaters right off the bat though, even just the pair that you get from Jeets (since they don't take any dmg). I remember a long time ago when they took double dmg on oozes, that was annoying back then, had to have half a dozen in your bag for oozes.

[dogsoldier]

Here are some thoughts I had for improving Pure Sacred Fist, mostly just stuff that would make Epic and Legendary better. Heroic is not really where the biggest problems are.

https://i.imgur.com/9DRyE6b.png

Suggestions for Pure Sacred Fist buffs (they only actually get most of these buffs at 20+, SF is fine in heroics mostly):

Capstone: + Basic Monk Stances + Adept of Forms (you have to pickup Master of Forms to get much from this at 21 or 24) + Shuriken Proficiency

Pure Sacred Fist would essentially the same benefits of 1 Monk Level (adding a bonus Adept of Forms because they lose the 1 Monk Martial Arts Feat), but only if they are Pure Class, and take the Sacred Fist Capstone.

Tier 5: Divine Strike (Outsiders instead of Demons/Devils):
(Demons or Devils is way too niche to be useful in T5)
Divine Strike: You gain On Vorpal: Stun any Outsider with no save for 3 seconds.

T5: Avenging Whirlwind (Multiselect makes this interesting):
Avenging Whirlwind / Avenging Leap Multiselect:

(Pure Sacred Fist is probably going to use their Ki on Spells instead of Avenging Whirlwind, could be good for a /6 Splash muliticlass, but T5 is probably not going to be their choice unless their /12 class were a non-martial class)

(This is fine as a Ki Ability, only because it could be fun for some 12/6/2 build, if you have Incinerating Wave as a Ki Spell, this is not especially useful, if you don't you can make some use of it, possibly)

Avenging Whirlwind: Make a sweeping martial arts attack against all nearby enemies for +5[W] damage. Damaged enemies gain one stack of Vulnerability. Shares a cooldown with the Great Cleave feat.

Avenging Leap: You get something like Spring Attack, Leap of Faith, Abundant Step as an alternate choice, Spring into the fight and lay waste, make this a NON-ki ability, otherwise you take the fun away, leap into the fray with no Ki left to spend is no longer fun, and the casters have already nuked stuff by then.

Something needs to be done with Violence Begets Violence. It is just not good at all. Just about anything you put there would be better, whether +20 Healing Amp, CHA Trance, anything, but some reason to actually look at the T5s.

Evasive Dane is near worthless as well. If you put something like that in T5, make it either "No Fail on One", or "You now get Improved Evasion". This is not OP for heroics at all, because evasion is good enough for heroics. It is nice to have an option to either NOT take Epic Reflexes (save a feat), or NOT go into Shadowdancer tree. This class is feat starved, and it would want to have something from GMoF definitely, and possibly Crusader, if you wanted both, then you are going to be looking at Shadowdancer too. It just kind of sets up to lock in all of the destiny trees, or at least 2 of them. All this would do for Sacred Fist in Epics is make it more like 1-2 trees locked up, and they could have fun with the other 1-2 trees.

Edit: Also, not just Sacred Fist, but Monk as well. Normalize all MRR Cap on Cloth to base of 50 MRR Cap for players 1-19, 60 MRR Cap for 20-29, 80 MRR Cap 30-32

This MRR cap adjustment would put Epic and Legendary Monks and Sacred Fist on the same footing as Cloth Casters wearing Escoteric Initiate or Beacon of Magic sets

[cdbd3rd]

Devs will make handwraps popular if it kills us.

Fixed it for ya? :)

----
I stepped out of HCL for a few days to try this new thing, LRing an old mule pally over to SF. Got him to 6 before heading back, so watching threads like this to see if he turns out playable or remains a mule.

[dogsoldier]

Fixed it for ya? :)

----
I stepped out of HCL for a few days to try this new thing, LRing an old mule pally over to SF. Got him to 6 before heading back, so watching threads like this to see if he turns out playable or remains a mule.

What Race is it? Drow is really nice because you get Shuriken proficiency auto granted.

I am testing out this build on a first life, no gear except what I find, to test the theory that it might make a good first life setup. So far, so good, but I am pausing at level 5 to see if I can get my gear Saltmarsh Saga ready.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534487-32-Point-Drow-Sacred-Fist-Follower-of-Vulkoor-16-3-1-Paladin-Monk-FvS/page2

[cdbd3rd]

What Race is it? Drow is really nice because you get Shuriken proficiency auto granted.

I am testing out this build on a first life, no gear except what I find, to test the theory that it might make a good first life setup. So far, so good, but I am pausing at level 5 to see if I can get my gear Saltmarsh Saga ready.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534487-32-Point-Drow-Sacred-Fist-Follower-of-Vulkoor-16-3-1-Paladin-Monk-FvS/page2

He is a Drow. Mostly starter type gear with 2 pieces of Fey.

[dogsoldier]

He is a Drow. Mostly starter type gear with 2 pieces of Fey.

Next question, what level is this character? Asking to think about whether adding a level of monk would be a good choice. Monk opens up the Monk Stances, but leveling order matters because ideally you want: Adept of Forms at level 6, and Master of forms at 12, to get the most out of the Monk level. Also it matters when you take the Monk level. For instance, Monk at level 1 is great because it can pickup TWF as the martial arts bonus feat, and then you can get Two Weapon Defense as the regular feat. Monk cannot take any of the subsequent TWF feats as martial arts feats though, so then it's a matter of whether you could benefit from one of the others, like Precision.

Edit: Forms bonuses if you have Master of Forms (each of these offer Ki generation bonuses, except wind, which increases your attack rate, essentially increasing Ki generation that way as well):

Master of Flame: Sun Stance now grants +3 Strength and the critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20, at a cost of -2 Wisdom. While in Greater Sun Stance you gain 'Hit Effect: Gain 1 ki.' and 'Critical Effect: Gain 4 ki.

Master of Rain: Ocean Stance now grants +3 Wisdom, +9% dodge, +6 Maximum Dodge, +4 to all Saving Throws, and your passive ki generation when centered is increased by 1, at a cost of -2 Strength.

Master of Wind: Wind Stance now grants +3 Dexterity, a 12.5% Enhancement bonus to melee and thrown attack speed, and grants a 9% chance to doublestrike with melee weapons, at the cost of -2 Constitution.

And then less useful most of the time, but could be good situationally:

Master of Rock: Mountain Stance now grants +3 Constitution, a 15% boost to AC, 12 physical resistance, a +55% Insight bonus to melee threat generation, at the cost of -2 Dexterity and -10% movement speed. While in Greater Mountain Stance, you gain 'Get Hit Effect: Gain 1 ki.

[dogsoldier]

You can always take the stance upgrades later too, its just nice to have the Ki boost by 12, where you would pickup Incinerating Wave at 11 Levels of Sacred Fist, extra Ki for extra Incineration. Realistically big picture, I would definitely want Master of Forms by level 21 or 24. Epic is where you will really want more Ki.

[cdbd3rd]

You can always take the stance upgrades later too, its just nice to have the Ki boost by 12, where you would pickup Incinerating Wave at 11 Levels of Sacred Fist, extra Ki for extra Incineration. Realistically big picture, I would definitely want Master of Forms by level 21 or 24. Epic is where you will really want more Ki.

:)

I appreciate your insight, but that is WAY deeper into the meta than I go. I see Monk has changed some since the last time I splashed it onto one of my 'Big F'n Stick' staff rogues YEARS ago, though.

Hopefully that line of thought will help other folks who like juggling the little numbers over character lifetime.

[dogsoldier]

:)

I appreciate your insight, but that is WAY deeper into the meta than I go. I see Monk has changed some since the last time I splashed it onto one of my 'Big F'n Stick' staff rogues YEARS ago, though.

Hopefully that line of thought will help other folks who like juggling the little numbers over character lifetime.

I remember the Big F'n Stick build, but I never tried something like that back then, don't run staff much, though I might try Sacred Fist with Staff too.

[Tilomere]

You can always take the stance upgrades later too, its just nice to have the Ki boost by 12, where you would pickup Incinerating Wave at 11 Levels of Sacred Fist, extra Ki for extra Incineration. Realistically big picture, I would definitely want Master of Forms by level 21 or 24. Epic is where you will really want more Ki.

Realistically big picture, you want a different class dps tree if you want to do dps. This was originally about KoTC and Vangaurd, but I adapted it to include SF as well:


Paladins are designed to be near 0 DPS tanks. Edit: SF has 20 power, KoTC tree has 20 power, and Vangaurd tree has 19 power with shield use. All three basically suck for dps, especially clearing groups.

If you want a balance of offense, you will want to multiclass for another classes offensive tree.

For example, 5 ranger DWS allows 135 ranged power built up with aimed shot, and 7 VKF allows using that power on daggers.

A balanced paladin build is then 5 ranger, 14-15 paladin (Vol if able), 1 rogue or arti?

Get SWF at first level before ranger autogrant TWF at second level locks it out.

Put points into DWS for ranged power, aimed shot, which you will use with a repeater to multi-proc

Put points into VKF for ranged power to daggers and fan of knives, which also benefits from impulse/kinetic lore/ranged power.

Grab some cleaves, or better yet start as a SDK and get the triple hit racial cleaves

Triple aimed shot as you close in, swap to dagger/orb and cleave, proc 100% spell crit offhand versatility, throw Fan of Knives to execute cleanup everything.

Harper Int to hit/dmg/KTA is better than Charisma because it also fuels trapping skills and spellcraft.

See PO build in arti forum. (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/531918-Po)

Warning: This is what happens when someone non-uber makes a pure 20 melee paladin. (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/532796-Melee-are-just-so-underwhelming) or this (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534557-pure-sacred-fist-just-feels-like-a-weak-paladin?p=6542438#post6542438)

[Alternative]

What are you guys talking about, the echo chamber was excited and still says it's strong.

[dogsoldier]

What are you guys talking about, the echo chamber was excited and still says it's strong.

It is strong 1-11, where the devs seem to be balancing around (sonic blast for instance), which is why I thought they would have a hard time seeing that it needs improvement. Any other T5 martial tree is better. It is a fun hybrid play style though, with 23 AP, and main tree something else.

[Deathmaster35]

It is strong 1-11, where the devs seem to be balancing around (sonic blast for instance), which is why I thought they would have a hard time seeing that it needs improvement. Any other T5 martial tree is better. It is a fun hybrid play style though, with 23 AP, and main tree something else.

It really isnt strong 1-11 even, it is just weaker than a two handed paladin at those levels. it doesnt hit as hard and doesnt hit as many targets at a time.
it was just mediocre at the early levels. It was bad at like 1-5, then fine 6 on. I think I only died once on the way to 30, which was from excessive 1s on saves against an orange champion beholder.

its not terrible to play, it just isnt as good as I had hoped it would be. if they put more melee power into the class tree it would probably be ok, or has the flame dice have a built in function for bonus damage on crits.. or if the buff spell for bonus flame dice and damage on crits was instant cast

[dogsoldier]

It really isnt strong 1-11 even, it is just weaker than a two handed paladin at those levels. it doesnt hit as hard and doesnt hit as many targets at a time.
it was just mediocre at the early levels. It was bad at like 1-5, then fine 6 on. I think I only died once on the way to 30, which was from excessive 1s on saves against an orange champion beholder.

its not terrible to play, it just isnt as good as I had hoped it would be. if they put more melee power into the class tree it would probably be ok, or has the flame dice have a built in function for bonus damage on crits.. or if the buff spell for bonus flame dice and damage on crits was instant cast

Drow with a monk and fvs level early, using shortswords is better, but yeah, requires multiclassing to be functional is not a good start.

[dogsoldier]

Outside of Using Trailblazer / Drow Racial trees, Vistani, or any Martial Class' T5s as your main tree, Sacred Fist does open up these old classics a little more:

12 / 6 / 2 - Dark Apostate / Fighter / Monk - Centered Swim Cleric - Favored Weapon, but T5 Kensei anyway for centering - CHA based, Pick any Weapon you prefer.

Edit: This could be favored, though not likely with the weapon of your choice there

Edit: /6 Fighter, CHA to hit and dmg via Feydark Illusionist, Sacred Fist not needed for that one.

12 / 6 / 2 - Sacred Fist / Fighter / Monk - TWF Centered Dwarven Axes with T5 Kensei - Not Favored, but no big deal, Dwarf Racial tree is your secondary one anyway. You do not need TYWA with /6 Sacred Fist - Go all in on CHA. Add more humor into the mix by picking up THF Specialty for some strikethrough at 31.

Any Split you want with Regular Tabaxi could be interesting too, main tree is Tabaxi Racial tree for DEX to hit and dmg until you reach 6 Sacred Fist levels. And just the fact that there are some nice things in this racial tree too, you might end up with as many points here as you do in the Sacred Fist tree (sneak dice, deflect arrows, Vigor SLA meta'd to pair with Cure Mod SLA, Sprint boost upgrades, etc)

[Gnominal_Aphasia]

Devs will make handwraps popular if it kills them.

Or us!

[Kebtid]

Someone test out Dark Fist Soundburst Paladin:

Human, max + levels Wisdom, dex for feats
1-3 DA Cleric Quicken, Dodge, Magic Domain
4-5 Monk Mobility TWF
6-20 Paladin WWA, TWF2, Extend, TWF3, Swords to Plowshares
21 IC:B 22 PTWF 24 OC 25 CW 27 Epic Fort, 28 DS, 30 reincarnate

AP by level
1-6 11+1 tome Falconry wisdom to hit/dmg, 8 RS Divine Healing 4 DA imbue, 1 SF, racial AP: stuffs
7-12 8 DA imbue, 11Falconry 30% helpless, 4 divine might, 1 HeM
13-20 10 Falconry 50% fort debuff and T5, dropping divine might, more SF + SaD stuffs, leftovers Human HAmp

End up with:
13 SF +3 Die
12 DA Imbue
33 Falconry T5 10 MP, 30% helpless, wis to hit/dmg
8 RS Divine Healing > 8 Shintao if staying at cap
1 HeM
Racial/leftovers Human HAMP

Skills: heal, concentration, balance from monk levels

Gameplay: Quicken soundburst mobs, quicken extend buff up, spin to win with constant divine healing regeneration

Not viable.
No need to waste time