20 Slots at a Time

[Sqrlmonger]

I and many many others pointed out during the u56 previews that we badly needed a paradigm shift in storage capacity, and that simply adding 20 slots at a time would be a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem.


In response to the desire for more bank space, we hear you and have heard you. More space will be coming once we verify that everything is working as intended and we have not added any additional bugs with this new system.

I replied in part:


Respectfully, the question isn't if you intend to offer more, we can see you intend to offer more. The question is if you are prepared to substantially change the paradigm of how much bank capacity is offered?

Right now, based on your testing, it appears you plan to offer 20 spaces for 595 at a time. If the intention is to maintain that rate, as many have posted their concerns over, this is not sufficient and utterly fails to meet player needs.


Having been assured that we had been heard, then told that we just needed to give Devs time to show their 'vision' for the changes, and generally not having anything more we could do.... We waited.

So at this point does anyone think we were actually heard still?

I mean maybe I'm wrong, maybe bank upgrade 3 & 4 is just a dip of the toe in the water and larger 100/200 slot upgrades are coming. Maybe 20 slots at a time isn't actually their "vision"?

There's always a chance I am too cynical, but I think we all know what is happening here.

https://media.makeameme.org/created/what-if-i-8ivshw.jpg

[dogsoldier]

Do you remember this thread? It was a joke of course, but the reality is that is significantly closer to the mark as far as what is needed. 10 slots at a time is insulting.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/532194-Great-news!!!

Baseline +100 Shared Storage for all right now. As a thank you for everyone who has been patient with the problems that have occurred with update 56 would be a good start. Important note, if you have not purchased the base Shared Bank yet as a new player just trying it out, you would have to buy that first. Instantly you have tons of new paying players while there is a short window of buzz with the D&D Movie.

Everyone that already has +10 at a time upgrades purchased still has those on top of the default, plus the new +100 more.

Future, more is needed. This is just a start.

[Wizard1406]

This is indeed very disappointing.

I too thought changing to a list based bank would improve the storage significantly.

Is there any technical reason why crafting storage can have 250 slot upgrade each , but bank only 20 ? (shared only 10...)

[dogsoldier]

This is indeed very disappointing.

I too thought changing to a list based bank would improve the storage significantly.

Is there any technical reason why crafting storage can have 250 slot upgrade each , but bank only 20 ? (shared only 10...)

Well, that is another good way to fix this a bit that would be both reasonable going forward, and fair to those who already spent a ton on upgrades. Retroactively give every upgrade both already purchased and purchased going forward 50% more space.

All Shared Bank upgrades move from 10 slots to 15 slots.
All per-character upgrades move from 20 slots to 30 slots.

The numbers were setup with how the game was back in 2006-2010. It does not make any sense given the amount of items that have been added with each new expansion.

[LightBear]

Well, technically I would only need 1 extra space at a time until I get another BtC item.
I bet they'll sell those 1 extra spaces with a random free glamored outfit.

[Steeme]

Honestly, the 2x20 character bank expansion seems reasonable because they know that some players will be stuffing it full of junk and transferring it to the TR cache.

They are also likely making small incremental changes as a caution - give the players extra space, see what they do with it, and identify any adverse effects on the game world.

In terms of pricing - it will always be "too expensive". The cost of doing business is much larger than you think, and DDO has a relatively low population to spread the cost.

(PS - You can always wait for a sale and get the space for less than 595DP)

[dogsoldier]

Per character helps some for sure, but it is clear that more shared storage is what is really needed. I need to jettison a ton of gear from shared bank storage to a collection of mules, then load it back up with stuff in my inventory, then put all my BtC stuff like minor artifacts into my character bank, unload my TR cache as much as I can, probably will need to do another tour of mules, load back up my shared storage, and then finish clearing cache. Now I could just run the same exact build every life, but I like to mix it up and try different builds, so I have many gear sets.

[Sqrlmonger]

Honestly, the 2x20 character bank expansion seems reasonable because they know that some players will be stuffing it full of junk and transferring it to the TR cache.

They are also likely making small incremental changes as a caution - give the players extra space, see what they do with it, and identify any adverse effects on the game world.

In terms of pricing - it will always be "too expensive". The cost of doing business is much larger than you think, and DDO has a relatively low population to spread the cost.

(PS - You can always wait for a sale and get the space for less than 595DP)

No it's not reasonable as many of us have explained repeatedly and to which they responded that they heard and understood our concerns. Just as a basic example the cost of buying a character slot and painfully managing gear on an alt is a far better value proposition for players than the bank upgrades. Unless you're willing to argue that they are cynically fine with giving us a discount so long as we suffer for it?

It is possible small initial changes preceding larger more profound changes are the intention here (and I mentioned that in the opening post), but the fact that they would not answer the question directly kinda gives the game away. It is also interesting how you're saying in your previous paragraph that this amount of space is fine, but in this paragraph you are trying to argue it's not actually fine but they are just taking it slow. It comes off like you are trying to rationalize it and are testing to see which argument might work rather than making an argument from principle.

Also, you're making big assumptions about the knowledge level of others in regards to the cost of business. First thing I would say is that in this instance you're just plain wrong about my knowledge on the subject...very wrong. Second, it really misses the point as this, along with many other problems that are ignored "because the cost of the doing business", is something that has been hurting the game for a long time and making player retention more difficult. People don't enjoy playing mule jenga to manage their items. And really that is the crux of the issue, the storage space already exists, it's just not uniformly and conveniently accessible.

They continue to insist on this maddening mule system while people come on here and argue about the "cost of business" like people aren't already storing thousands of items on mules for far cheaper than the 595 DDO pts for 20 slots.

So please, wake up and stop making excuses for them Steeme. This paradigm is awful and it needs to change. It's not even really a question at this point.

[archest]

since there was a limit to the number of up grades for the character bank which were purchased 20 slots at a time, this is an additional 40 slots of storage per character that did not exist prior to update 56.

if I have 10 characters and could potentially add 400 more slots.


I would think the only thing lacking is the ability to earn them for favor.

[slarden]

Most of the items in mules I never end up using. I tend to keep one of every named item at end game until/unless it becomes useless/obsolete and then I crunch it.

For me the right solution is to sell/crunch/delete items first and only buy bank space for a few main characters at most.

If SSG starts creating content or restricts TR storage that creates an artificial need for btc storage to sell bank space - then I would be disappointed.

[Dandonk]

If SSG starts creating content or restricts TR storage that creates an artificial need for btc storage to sell bank space

They're called minor artifacts.

[slarden]

They're called minor artifacts.

I save a few minor artifacts I am likely to use in the future and even a few more I am less likely to use but with incredible bonuses that would be hard to find again. It's a small % of the total minor artifacts available. The rest are crunched for sentient xp or reaper fragments.

It hasn't created a massive inventory problem for me, but it's great they are offering bank space for people that want to save a bunch.

With that said, minor artifacts that aren't exclusive to raids should be bta. I mean you can buy btc raid items for characters that never ran a raid - why do these need to be btc. That is a different discussion though :)

[Annex]

Current maximum vault storage in The Lord of the Rings Online is 360 slots. Current maximum backpack storage in that game is 135 slots.

The recent DDO vault changes essentially make it work like vault space in The Lord of the Rings Online. We can expect the slow release of additional vault space, 20 slots at a time, until the maximum reaches something like 360 slots. Upcoming expansions will include vault slices.

The lion's share of the development budget currently goes to The Lord of the Rings Online. Any massive change to storage will occur there first.

Standing Stone Games obviously generates significant revenue selling storage. The powers that be will not shut down that revenue stream unless and until they have a proven system to replace the lost revenue.

If the developers suddenly handed me 1,000 units of extremely cheap vault storage I would be thrilled. Jubilant. Perhaps I would even gush. In my opinion, the odds of that happening is a number approaching zero. Even so, I support efforts to increase the quantity and affordability of storage.

.....

Please increase the stack size in Large and larger Collectible Bags to 10,000. I do not trust Shared Crafting Storage. It is a Mimic and eats stuff.

Please make everything that goes into a Character Bag or Shared Crafting Storage stack to 10,000. If a universal stack size increase is not possible, please make Festivult Coins and all Cannith Crafting Collectibles stack to 10,000.

Please increase Cookie Jar stack size and stick some anti-gravity gizmos on the thing. Edit: No anti-gravity gizmos needed. It weighs much less than I remembered.

Please add a conformation dialog when dumping an entire Collectible Bag or Ingredient Bag into Shared Crafting Storage. Please include an option to skip any such dialog.

Please increase the number of Astral Shard auction slots available to Premium players. This is a storage issue and a revenue generator for Standing Stone Games. If I can put more items on the Astral Shard Auction House, my storage needs drop, players can purchase items they want, and you generate revenue from the sale of Astral Shards. Sell me more Astral Shard Auction House slots for Astral Shards. Such a perk would save me considerable time and reduce character jumping strain on your servers.

Please make the character vault A to Z sort ignore stack sizes.

.....

On last thing. I am reaching deep into memory for this so keep your skeptic's glasses on. I distinctly remember more than one person at Turbine stating that when two characters come into proximity, they share storage information. In other words, if I move my character into an area with 12 other characters, my client receives information about their storage. The more storage those characters possess, the bigger the data dump. This supposedly causes a lot of lag, especially in public areas or when entering a dungeon. If this is true, the bigger our character backpack space becomes, the more potential lag we face. If this is true, I absolutely do NOT want more backpack space. The current 160 slot maximum is plenty for my needs.

[droid327]

As usual, "clean up your storage" is probably 50% of the problem. There have not been any significantly new builds added where you need to keep new gear for them. Odds are you have some stuff that's redundant and would have no place on any possible build on any character you'll actually play

That being said - the bank overhaul is a work in progress, and while this was a first step (that's already paid off some dividends, enabling them to handle 40 more slots per char), expecting one patch worth of changes to suddenly unlock hundreds of new slots and give you effectively unlimited storage was unrealistic.

The whole problem with the old storage system was the engine couldnt handle the size of the database. They're not going to ever just open the floodgates even after they've made changes. They're going to gradually ease the limit upwards and see how much the new system can take, once its done.

[cdbd3rd]

.... Perhaps I would even gush. ...


https://c.tenor.com/q4rtwuaif-8AAAAM/family-guy-stewie.gif


:D


[Cookie jars] Hehheh. Yeah, we be carrying a crock-ton of cookies.

[YUTANG75]

The new bank is awesome, don't get me wrong, but it hasn't solved the storage problem. Item management is still a huge pain having to log in and out shuffling items around as I go through gearsets. Especially when logging out just doesn't work for some reason and you have to kill the client.

What I want to see is for the base storage and every upgrade to be tripled in capacity along with unlimited (or at least a much higher limit) bank tabs. If you need to split the banks into "vaults" to avoid loading too many items at the same time, go for it I guess. Ultimately I just want to be able to store and retrieve all my lvl 5/10/15 gearsets without hopping between 4+ characters.

[Sqrlmonger]

As usual, "clean up your storage" is probably 50% of the problem. There have not been any significantly new builds added where you need to keep new gear for them. Odds are you have some stuff that's redundant and would have no place on any possible build on any character you'll actually play

That being said - the bank overhaul is a work in progress, and while this was a first step (that's already paid off some dividends, enabling them to handle 40 more slots per char), expecting one patch worth of changes to suddenly unlock hundreds of new slots and give you effectively unlimited storage was unrealistic.

The whole problem with the old storage system was the engine couldnt handle the size of the database. They're not going to ever just open the floodgates even after they've made changes. They're going to gradually ease the limit upwards and see how much the new system can take, once its done.

You don't get to decide what is permissible for people to want to keep. Your approach is not the only valid approach. Some people enjoy the collection, some people like being prepared, etc.. One of the primary game loops being TR'ing means it is designed around people needing to use and re-use gear. In other words storing gear is heavily incentivized. I cannot tell you how many times I've saved what would have been weeks or months of farming by having the item(s) I needed on hand. Unless you are offering to help people farm their gear same day they need it passing out timer bypasses, please don't presume to tell others they are doing it wrong. The thing is, your thinking on this is so twisted that you actually think a failure to keep the game's storage system in line with the item bloat means that the players are wrong for doing what the game incentivizes them to do. When in reality this is a design flaw from top to bottom.

As for the rest of your points they just got done redesigning the bank, if that effort didn't correct underlying issues so that it could meet player needs, what was the point exactly? Or are you essentially saying they've simply slapped a coat of paint on the the whole thing and are now telling us that this is what we should feel good about? Either way, my point is that regardless of what they did, it is not meeting player needs and hasn't for close to, if not more than, a decade. So people have actually been patient for a really really long time and the lack of patience now is owed in no small part to extreme degree to which that patience has been tried.

The rest of the lack of patience is owed to their lack of communication with us. Several of the excuses being made for them here by you and others are based on incomplete theories (i.e. guesses) of how the underlying system works and why it can't work etc.. We could argue about that, but it doesn't matter and doesn't interest me. Now if they wanted to explain what the challenges they faced actually are I would be much more interested in that and it might, depending on the quality of the reasons, buy some good will. They do explain some things, most often Lynnabel talking with Strimtom, so it's not unprecedented. But they continue to choose not to do that here and I and many others are just plain done with being patient.

If your needs are met then great, I'm legitimately happy that this is not a concern to you. But then why are you here telling us our concerns don't matter?

[Buddha5440]

...Standing Stone Games obviously generates significant revenue selling storage. The powers that be will not shut down that revenue stream unless and until they have a proven system to replace the lost revenue...

Kind of curious as to how you know that to be true. If so; they ARE a business and must make money to continue operations.


...
Please increase the stack size in Large and larger Collectible Bags to 10,000. I do not trust Shared Crafting Storage. It is a Mimic and eats stuff.

Please make everything that goes into a Character Bag or Shared Crafting Storage stack to 10,000. If a universal stack size increase is not possible, please make Festivult Coins and all Cannith Crafting Collectibles stack to 10,000...

As a crafter, I am 100% for this (not sure about it eating stuff though)...Make it so number 1 :)


...
Please add a conformation dialog when dumping an entire Collectible Bag or Ingredient Bag into Shared Crafting Storage. Please include an option to skip any such dialog...

You really need a confirmation dialog when you have to manually drag the bag to the shared bank crafting to deposit the items in it? Maybe just remove the stuff you don't want deposited from the bag first.


...
Please make the character vault A to Z sort ignore stack sizes...

Again... 100% agree on this :). Should be simple enough, just a change in the coding to sort alphabetically not alphanumeric.


...
On last thing. I am reaching deep into memory for this so keep your skeptic's glasses on. I distinctly remember more than one person at Turbine stating that when two characters come into proximity, they share storage information. In other words, if I move my character into an area with 12 other characters, my client receives information about their storage. The more storage those characters possess, the bigger the data dump. This supposedly causes a lot of lag, especially in public areas or when entering a dungeon. If this is true, the bigger our character backpack space becomes, the more potential lag we face. If this is true, I absolutely do NOT want more backpack space. The current 160 slot maximum is plenty for my needs.

Been around for a long time (well before my forum date) and I don't think I have ever seen anything about this; however, if true (and please link it if you find it), I again 100% agree :)

Happy gaming all :)

[Annex]

[Cookie jars] Hehheh. Yeah, we be carrying a crock-ton of cookies.

You inspired me to look and my cookie jar weights 41.76 pounds. That is way less than expected. I wonder if Lynnabel added anti-gravity gizmos while I was not looking.

.....

The people asking for more vault space have a very valid point. Until yesterday, vault space was fixed for, like, 6 years. During that time the game grew immensely, with multiple expansions, a complete overhaul of epic crafting, the addition of artifacts, and so forth. The developers have finally responded to storage issues, which is great, but players who collect stuff still face a 6 year backlog.

If I recall correctly, Mister Cordovan already wrote that more space would come once they squish bugs in the new system. Forty slots is a good start and they will probably release more slices in the near future.

That does not address the issue brought up by the original poster, who seeks massive amounts of cheap storage. For that to happen, Standing Stone Games needs a revenue stream to replace the one from selling storage. I am not hopeful that will happen.

[Buddha5440]

You inspired me to look and my cookie jar weights 41.76 pounds. That is way less than expected. I wonder if Lynnabel added anti-gravity gizmos while I was not looking...

Cookies do have weight, as they should, but we can still carry up to 1,000 TONS (with a strength of 14, my halfling can carry over 650 lbs) !?!?!?! I get this a world of magic and all, but, SERIOUSLY?

That being said, I'm all for ACTUAL bags of holding (a staple in the D&D universe) or robes of many pockets, etc.

[misterski]

Cookies do have weight, as they should, but we can still carry up to 1,000 TONS (with a strength of 14, my halfling can carry over 650 lbs) !?!?!?! I get this a world of magic and all, but, SERIOUSLY?

That being said, I'm all for ACTUAL bags of holding (a staple in the D&D universe) or robes of many pockets, etc.

I prefer Heward's Handy Haversack myself. It's....handier....

[superevbully]

This is indeed very disappointing.



Is there any technical reason why crafting storage can have 250 slot upgrade each , but bank only 20 ? (shared only 10...)

Going to keep this answer short and sweet .........$

[Annex]

Kind of curious as to how you know that to be true. If so; they ARE a business and must make money to continue operations.

You are right. I cannot know with certainty that Standing Stone Games generates a significant amount of revenue by selling storage. However, I consider the circumstantial evidence for my assertion very strong. Unlocking three bag slices on a character costs 1,785 points. Unlocking two vault slices on a character costs 1,190 points. Unlocking all shared storage on an account costs 22,390 points. Unlocking all shared crafting storage on an account costs 6,360 points. Unlocking all shared platinum vault slices costs 2,960 points. All together, that amounts to 34,685 points.

Even when you factor in point sales and point earning from game play, that represents a gigantic amount of potential revenue. Most players have jobs and families. They cannot play constantly but have money. DDO is their hobby.

Any argument to make storage super cheap needs to seriously address that revenue loss. I am not happy with the situation but these things matter.


You really need a confirmation dialog when you have to manually drag the bag to the shared bank crafting to deposit the items in it? Maybe just remove the stuff you don't want deposited from the bag first.

I do not trust shared crafting storage. Numerous players have reported losing items when remote crafting. I watched in real time as a few thousand Cannith Challenege ingredients were destroyed.

I keep most crafting ingredients in Large Bags. Those bags go into shared storage. Sometimes, I flip back and forth between shared storage and shared crafting storage while looking for stuff. Very rarely, I accidentally drop one of my storage bags into shared crafting storage instead of shared storage. The bag starts to unload. I need to run away from the vault keeper, then sort stuff back into the bag, then put the bag into the correct tab. On at least one occasion, such a mistake caused me to lose thousands of ingredients. That mimic is voracious.


Been around for a long time (well before my forum date) and I don't think I have ever seen anything about this; however, if true (and please link it if you find it), I again 100% agree :)

It was a long time ago. Like, maybe 2015. I distinctly remember more than one developer stating that coming into proximity of another character causes the behavior I described. There was also discussion about players with bad connections sharing their lag with other members of their groups. Maybe I am misremembering or just crazy. If I had to bet, I'd put my money on crazy.

[Annex]

Cookies do have weight, as they should, but we can still carry up to 1,000 TONS (with a strength of 14, my halfling can carry over 650 lbs) !?!?!?! I get this a world of magic and all, but, SERIOUSLY?

Yeah. I guess having the strength of an industrial hydraulic press explains strikethrough.

Anyway, I will update my original post and remove that line item. Fifty pounds is not a big deal nowadays.

[misterski]

Yeah. I guess having the strength of an industrial hydraulic press explains strikethrough.

Anyway, I will update my original post and remove that line item. Fifty pounds is not a big deal nowadays.

Lol, yeah. Strength has been the most unrealistic stat in D&D since forever. I remember 2nd Edition where a human fighter could get a starting strength of 18/00 if they were very lucky on their rolls. This is the equivalent strength of an ogre. The max press was over half a ton IIRC.

[Buddha5440]

...Maybe I am misremembering or just crazy. If I had to bet, I'd put my money on crazy.

I think most of us could/would say the same about ourselves :)... Although, it may be that the rest of society has gone crazy and we are the "normal" minority now :(.

As has been said often in the last few decades; Common sense is no longer common.

[Buddha5440]

Yeah. I guess having the strength of an industrial hydraulic press explains strikethrough...

Yeah, even Thanos couldn't strike with enough force to cut through 3 or more demons/devils... maybe kobolds but I think he might be fond of them if he were in this universe :)


...Anyway, I will update my original post and remove that line item. Fifty pounds is not a big deal nowadays.

I'm just glad they don't add weight to PP/GP/SP/CP. Nobody would loot any chest that didn't have a chance at a named item anymore because they would have to spend time only selecting the 1 or 2 items they might want and leave the money/gems/potions behind.