Sacred Fist hmmm!

[Raynebowdragon]

Hi Everyone, hello Devs,

I took an already built Paladin/Fighter and trd into a true Sacred Fist (Ponk) Lvl 26, 5 Past Lives (3 Pal) and about 12 RP and running Ponk Tree with Flower Destiny

I enjoy running my Pallys as Ponks and I was excited for Sacred Fist, only to discover the only way to keep the Ponk viable was to add 6 levels of monk.

Let's start at initial build upon entering build mode I discover that Jump, Swim and Tumble all important skills on a good Monk build cost double points (hamstrung there). Solution build it to lvl 6 Monk first to get as much benefit from Jump/Tumble as possible this also give you two monk level speed and take your Ponk levels from there!

Then I discover Sacred Fist has no stances, no meditation and 3 Ki attacks, so the Ponk has Ki attacks but no way of building Ki to use the attacks aside from pure melee gain with no buffs or boosts.

I was lucky I had gear for the set up as mentioned earlier I enjoy running Ponks, so I geared it up and took it out, my Friend mentioned they'd never seen my Ki bar that low or stay that low during combat! I was building just enough Ki for two Ki Strikes per Battle!

Now I assume this Archetype was so that you could Ponk without multi classing but the current build does not really allow for it!

6 levels of Monk on the Pally Fist gives you 2 levels monk speed, evasion, ability to generate Ki, meditation, jade fist, jade tomb, dismissing strike, kukan do, rise of the phoenix, add 3x one button Ki strikes from the Ponk tree and you have a viable Ponk... If it was not meant to be multi classed Devs you needed to give it some form of passive and/or meditative Ki generation. As it stands it is almost impossible to generate Ki on the Pure Build and the cost to build skills that are effective for Monks are doubled costing valuable skills elsewhere in the build!

It shows that a lvl 6 Monk is a better build than a level 20 Sacred Fist, until the Ponk can generate it's own KI, better speed options and proper skill point values for an athletic build

[misterski]

Hi Everyone, hello Devs,

I took an already built Paladin/Fighter and trd into a true Sacred Fist (Ponk) Lvl 26, 5 Past Lives (3 Pal) and about 12 RP and running Ponk Tree with Flower Destiny

I enjoy running my Pallys as Ponks and I was excited for Sacred Fist, only to discover the only way to keep the Ponk viable was to add 6 levels of monk.

Let's start at initial build upon entering build mode I discover that Jump, Swim and Tumble all important skills on a good Monk build cost double points (hamstrung there). Solution build it to lvl 6 Monk first to get as much benefit from Jump/Tumble as possible this also give you two monk level speed and take your Ponk levels from there!

Then I discover Sacred Fist has no stances, no meditation and 3 Ki attacks, so the Ponk has Ki attacks but no way of building Ki to use the attacks aside from pure melee gain with no buffs or boosts.

I was lucky I had gear for the set up as mentioned earlier I enjoy running Ponks, so I geared it up and took it out, my Friend mentioned they'd never seen my Ki bar that low or stay that low during combat! I was building just enough Ki for two Ki Strikes per Battle!

Now I assume this Archetype was so that you could Ponk without multi classing but the current build does not really allow for it!

6 levels of Monk on the Pally Fist gives you 2 levels monk speed, evasion, ability to generate Ki, meditation, jade fist, jade tomb, dismissing strike, kukan do, rise of the phoenix, add 3x one button Ki strikes from the Ponk tree and you have a viable Ponk... If it was not meant to be multi classed Devs you needed to give it some form of passive and/or meditative Ki generation. As it stands it is almost impossible to generate Ki on the Pure Build and the cost to build skills that are effective for Monks are doubled costing valuable skills elsewhere in the build!

It shows that a lvl 6 Monk is a better build than a level 20 Sacred Fist, until the Ponk can generate it's own KI, better speed options and proper skill point values for an athletic build

Sacred Fists are still Paladins so they get the crappy skill choices of a Paladin. They also do get increased movement speed in their tree but it tops out at 20% at level 20, bleh.

They do get some ki generation with their 18 core by using turn undead, but they need something else in the tree. On the Lammania forum I suggested something like the ki on hit bonus that henshin mystics get in their core 6. Getting the basic monk stances would be better, or at least Sun Stance.

Ponkadin is a funny term. I prefer to think of them as Not-Quite-a-Monks.

[dogsoldier]

Hi Everyone, hello Devs,

I took an already built Paladin/Fighter and trd into a true Sacred Fist (Ponk) Lvl 26, 5 Past Lives (3 Pal) and about 12 RP and running Ponk Tree with Flower Destiny

I enjoy running my Pallys as Ponks and I was excited for Sacred Fist, only to discover the only way to keep the Ponk viable was to add 6 levels of monk.

Let's start at initial build upon entering build mode I discover that Jump, Swim and Tumble all important skills on a good Monk build cost double points (hamstrung there). Solution build it to lvl 6 Monk first to get as much benefit from Jump/Tumble as possible this also give you two monk level speed and take your Ponk levels from there!

Then I discover Sacred Fist has no stances, no meditation and 3 Ki attacks, so the Ponk has Ki attacks but no way of building Ki to use the attacks aside from pure melee gain with no buffs or boosts.

I was lucky I had gear for the set up as mentioned earlier I enjoy running Ponks, so I geared it up and took it out, my Friend mentioned they'd never seen my Ki bar that low or stay that low during combat! I was building just enough Ki for two Ki Strikes per Battle!

Now I assume this Archetype was so that you could Ponk without multi classing but the current build does not really allow for it!

6 levels of Monk on the Pally Fist gives you 2 levels monk speed, evasion, ability to generate Ki, meditation, jade fist, jade tomb, dismissing strike, kukan do, rise of the phoenix, add 3x one button Ki strikes from the Ponk tree and you have a viable Ponk... If it was not meant to be multi classed Devs you needed to give it some form of passive and/or meditative Ki generation. As it stands it is almost impossible to generate Ki on the Pure Build and the cost to build skills that are effective for Monks are doubled costing valuable skills elsewhere in the build!

It shows that a lvl 6 Monk is a better build than a level 20 Sacred Fist, until the Ponk can generate it's own KI, better speed options and proper skill point values for an athletic build

Monk is 100% required, but not necessarily 6 levels, at least one level, and may as well get 3 at that point. I have a couple of 16/3/1 builds posted in the Paladin Forum if you wanted to look at them. And if you are thinking about doing this yourself, I would be interested in feedback. I did Pure Bladeforfged as the first Sacred Fist life, when that was still a convenient option. I am glad that I did, because I got to see all of the drawbacks of a pure Sacred Fist first hand. And in retrospect, it is actually fine that they took this option away, because pure Sacred Fist is not good anyway. Nor is a Pure Morninglord Dark Apostate. And, given the limited Deity options that Morninglord gets, probably not suitable for multiclass either; Vol, Aureon, or Silvanus could at least make that interesting.

[Eantarus]

I finished my punchy paladins lives the other day. Its pretty bad, especially if you try to play it as a pure paladin with wraps. The sad part is Dark Apostate is somehow even worse.

[misterski]

Monk is 100% required, but not necessarily 6 levels, at least one level, and may as well get 3 at that point. I have a couple of 16/3/1 builds posted in the Paladin Forum if you wanted to look at them. And if you are thinking about doing this yourself, I would be interested in feedback. I did Pure Bladeforfged as the first Sacred Fist life, when that was still a convenient option. I am glad that I did, because I got to see all of the drawbacks of a pure Sacred Fist first hand. And in retrospect, it is actually fine that they took this option away, because pure Sacred Fist is not good anyway. Nor is a Pure Morninglord Dark Apostate. And, given the limited Deity options that Morninglord gets, probably not suitable for multiclass either; Vol, Aureon, or Silvanus could at least make that interesting.

I wonder if 16 levels is worth it vs. 15. You get your 2nd level 4 spell at 15. Level 16 doesn't give anything noteworthy.

[dogsoldier]

I wonder if 16 levels is worth it vs. 15. You get your 2nd level 4 spell at 15. Level 16 doesn't give anything noteworthy.

Traditional Paladin Spell Slot Logic changes with Sacred Fist. You get one more 3rd level spell slot with 16 levels of Paladin. Is that important? Well, that's up to you, but consider that Incinerating Wave goes into that slot.

On a Pure Paladin, I would want: Cure Moderate, Magic Circle Against Evil, and Remove Curse

You could say "I just use pots for remove curse", but in one of those quests where the whole party is getting cursed, having the spell gives you the option to remove curses from others.

With 16 levels of Paladin, you only can choose 3 of those things, probably lose magic circle, and keep Incinerating Wave, Cure Mod, Remove Curse.

With 15 Levels of Paladin, you have to take out another one, so you only have: Incinerating Wave + Cure Mod, using pots for yourself, and not being able to remove curses from others.

So it is up to you, a trade off. I like the flexibility of having another spell slot where Sacred Fist is taking one of your level 3 and one of your level 4 spell slots.

Either 15/16 you only have 2 level 4 slots, so it does not make a difference, but then, pick two of: Holy Sword, Zeal, and Ki Explosions. Pure gets to pick 4 spells here, so can kind of have everything ... except enough ki to actually use the level 4 spell much anyway.

Vistani Frees up a level 4 spell slot with the level 12 core giving the same critical profile as holy sword. So then if you go Daggers, your level 4 spells are Zeal and Ki Explosion.

[misterski]

Traditional Paladin Spell Slot Logic changes with Sacred Fist. You get one more 3rd level spell slot with 16 levels of Paladin. Is that important? Well, that's up to you, but consider that Incinerating Wave goes into that slot.

On a Pure Paladin, I would want: Cure Moderate, Magic Circle Against Evil, and Remove Curse

You could say "I just use pots for remove curse", but in one of those quests where the whole party is getting cursed, having the spell gives you the option to remove curses from others.

With 16 levels of Paladin, you only can choose 3 of those things, probably lose magic circle, and keep Incinerating Wave, Cure Mod, Remove Curse.

With 15 Levels of Paladin, you have to take out another one, so you only have: Incinerating Wave + Cure Mod, using pots for yourself, and not being able to remove curses from others.

So it is up to you, a trade off. I like the flexibility of having another spell slot where Sacred Fist is taking one of your level 3 and one of your level 4 spell slots.

Either 15/16 you only have 2 level 4 slots, so it does not make a difference, but then, pick two of: Holy Sword, Zeal, and Ki Explosions. Pure gets to pick 4 spells here, so can kind of have everything ... except enough ki to actually use the level 4 spell much anyway.

Vistani Frees up a level 4 spell slot with the level 12 core giving the same critical profile as holy sword. So then if you go Daggers, your level 4 spells are Zeal and Ki Explosion.

The spell table in the wiki says you get an additional 2nd level spell slot at 16 not a 3rd level one. It's making me scratch my head because the spell slot progression for 3rd level spells is wonky at least as far as the table is concerned. You have 2 3rd level spells from level 12 until level 19 where you get 2 additional level 3 slots. That seems off to me.

[dogsoldier]

The spell table in the wiki says you get an additional 2nd level spell slot at 16 not a 3rd level one. It's making me scratch my head because the spell slot progression for 3rd level spells is wonky at least as far as the table is concerned. You have 2 3rd level spells from level 12 until level 19 where you get 2 additional level 3 slots. That seems off to me.

You are getting a second level 4 spell at 15. You get a third level 3 spell at 16.

[misterski]

You are getting a second level 4 spell at 15. You get a third level 3 spell at 16.

I'll have to take your word for it. The spell table in the wiki says differently, however.

[dogsoldier]

I'll have to take your word for it. The spell table in the wiki says differently, however.

Look at the regular paladin wiki page showing what it gets at each level.

[dogsoldier]

That table at the top of the Paladin spell list page is tabulating how many of each level spell belong to different spell schools, not how many it gets per level.

[misterski]

Look at the regular paladin wiki page showing what it gets at each level.

I'm looking at the Paladin page in the wiki. The spell slots in the Advancement table at level 16 reads: Level 1 - 3 slots, Level 2 - 3 slots, Level 3 - 2 slots, Level 4 - 2 Slots.

No 3rd slot for level 3 spells at level 16. If you look further down the table you see that Paladins don't get more than 2 level 3 spells until level 19 where it jumps to 4 spell slots.

[dogsoldier]

I'm looking at the Paladin page in the wiki. The spell slots in the Advancement table at level 16 reads: Level 1 - 3 slots, Level 2 - 3 slots, Level 3 - 2 slots, Level 4 - 2 Slots.

No 3rd slot for level 3 spells at level 16. If you look further down the table you see that Paladins don't get more than 2 level 3 spells until level 19 where it jumps to 4 spell slots.

Looking again, I was wrong, it was getting another 2nd level slot at 16, but the same thing applies here too, because you have a another Ki spell there, though it didn't seem that important. So it is a matter of spell flexibility really, and whether that is important. Sorry for the confusion.

For the level 2 spell slot: Righteous Command, Resist Energy, and Sacred Fist Empowerment

16 Levels of Sacred Fist lets you pick three of those, while 15 only gets two. For regular Paladin it would not matter, but its a choice of giving up either Resist Energy, or Sacred Fist Empowerment.

Sacred Fist Empowerment:
Grants you +3 Sacred Fist Dice and allows your critical hits to deal 1d20 Bane damage per Sacred Fist Dice, scaling with 100% of your Melee Power

[dogsoldier]

And reading the spell description, I was kind of using it wrong mostly (was hitting it and then going into melee, just getting kinda meh bane dmg). But should be pretty useful, if you use it when you have a bunch of ki built up, dump your ki with the spells, and then back to melee, getting a little boost to dmg while you build ki back up.

[FuzzyDuck81]

And reading the spell description, I was kind of using it wrong mostly (was hitting it and then going into melee, just getting kinda meh bane dmg). But should be pretty useful, if you use it when you have a bunch of ki built up, dump your ki with the spells, and then back to melee, getting a little boost to dmg while you build ki back up.

Sacred fist bane damage is on-crit too, so combine it with your smites and similar attacks that have boosted critical threat & you'll get a nice extra kick :)

In other things i noticed, purge dark magics in radiant servant clears a number of DoT spells including champion DoTs, which is pretty nifty.

[dogsoldier]

Sacred fist bane damage is on-crit too, so combine it with your smites and similar attacks that have boosted critical threat & you'll get a nice extra kick :)

In other things i noticed, purge dark magics in radiant servant clears a number of DoT spells including champion DoTs, which is pretty nifty.

Yeah, good idea, Ki Spells, then melee you have lots of Ki, or Smites if you need to build it back up.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Check out my comprehensive look at the Sacred Fist here:


https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534251-Notes-from-the-Sacred-Fist

You don't need 6 levels of monk. Multiclass is certainly an option but the archetype plays just fine as pure.

[Oxarhamar]

Check out my comprehensive look at the Sacred Fist here:


https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534251-Notes-from-the-Sacred-Fist

You don't need 6 levels of monk. Multiclass is certainly an option but the archetype plays just fine as pure.

You don’t need them but OP states the reasons they choose monk levels which is fair

[dogsoldier]

Just One Monk level gives you basic stances. You have to figure out if you can squeeze in a couple feats to make it more worthwhile (Ki Generation Bonuses with the level 12 Master of Forms Feat, requires that you take Adept of Forms at 6), but even just the basic stance gives you, for example, in the Grandmaster of Flowers Destiny, double bonuses depending upon what stance you are in:

The Flickering Flame: +1/2/3 to hit and damage. Rank 3: +25% Fire Absorption. If you are in any Sun Stance, the bonuses of this enhancement are doubled.

Flow of Water: +1/2/3 saving throws, you take 5/10/15% less damage from being Helpless. Rank 3: +25% Cold Absorption. If you are in any Ocean Stance, the bonuses of this enhancement are doubled

Catch the Wind: +1/2/3% Dodge, +2/4/6 Armor Class. Rank 3: +25% Electric Absorption. If you are in any Air Stance, the bonuses of this enhancement are doubled.

Strength of Stone: +5/10/15 Hit Points and +2/4/6 Physical Resistance Rating Rank 3: +25% Acid Absorption. If you are in any Mountain Stance, the bonuses of this enhancement are doubled.

[cmecu]

Monk is 100% required, but not necessarily 6 levels, at least one level, and may as well get 3 at that point. I have a couple of 16/3/1 builds posted in the Paladin Forum if you wanted to look at them. And if you are thinking about doing this yourself, I would be interested in feedback. I did Pure Bladeforfged as the first Sacred Fist life, when that was still a convenient option. I am glad that I did, because I got to see all of the drawbacks of a pure Sacred Fist first hand. And in retrospect, it is actually fine that they took this option away, because pure Sacred Fist is not good anyway. Nor is a Pure Morninglord Dark Apostate. And, given the limited Deity options that Morninglord gets, probably not suitable for multiclass either; Vol, Aureon, or Silvanus could at least make that interesting.

Oh did you make a build with bladeforge? I still need to bang out 2 more Bladeforge iconic lives and 2 more Pally lives , thats why I want to do them together. Since we cant get Path of Light and handwraps yet for Bladeforge.. just made and tested goofy off with a 10 pally blade forge sacred fist, 5 fighter. I did that so I am favored with the 2 handed great sword from bladeforge, and tier 5 fighter allows me to be centered and make it a ki weapon, which allos me to use the cha to hit and damage and also being able to use sacred defender for the hit points and or Con up in tier 3 and 4 for divine dreams being like if we were wearing heavy armor. Even though Divine Dreams had Path of light requirement in red.. it still gives the benefit of the feat. Sadly Heavy armor training feats do not give the prr and mrr if you take it.. I guess it only pertains to the sacred defender tree making it as if we were wearing heavy armor.

[dogsoldier]

Oh did you make a build with bladeforge? I still need to bang out 2 more Bladeforge iconic lives and 2 more Pally lives , thats why I want to do them together. Since we cant get Path of Light and handwraps yet for Bladeforge.. just made and tested goofy off with a 10 pally blade forge sacred fist, 5 fighter. I did that so I am favored with the 2 handed great sword from bladeforge, and tier 5 fighter allows me to be centered and make it a ki weapon, which allos me to use the cha to hit and damage and also being able to use sacred defender for the hit points and or Con up in tier 3 and 4 for divine dreams being like if we were wearing heavy armor. Even though Divine Dreams had Path of light requirement in red.. it still gives the benefit of the feat. Sadly Heavy armor training feats do not give the prr and mrr if you take it.. I guess it only pertains to the sacred defender tree making it as if we were wearing heavy armor.

I actually did make that build, he is parked at 32 now and waiting until I decide for sure what to do for 2nd life, wanting to try things out before I commit.

Read the last post here about some of the drawbacks of being a Pure Bladeforged Sacred Fist at Cap. Now, if you just want to TR right away, this is functional, albiet not the greatest. It kind of feels like "hey this is amazing" 15-18, 20-28, it is more like you can just never get enough healing amp and it is tedious to self heal. If you have all the stacking repair amp stuff, this would be a breeze, it is fine either way, just needs some improvement. At level 32, on R6-10, which I like to do to pickup 1-2 reaper points every life, no matter what build, the 50 MRR cap starts to really show limitations, and if you stay there, you have to come up with ways to work around it. I decided to plan out my next life instead.

If it is not obvious by looking these over, I am having more fun tinkering with multiclassing options than I was having getting reaper xp at 32:

The Initial, hey, what this acually works build!? Bladeforged SWF Vistani:

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534267-SWF-Sacred-Fist-Bladeforged-Build

Trailblazer Ideas, Staff or Dagger:

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534439-Tabaxi-Trailblazer-Sacred-Stick-Blazes-so-much-he-is-always-hi-on-Ki

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534417-Trailblazer-Sacred-Daggers-of-Vol-Monk-Stances

Starting from Level 1, Drow Shortswords:
https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534487-32-Point-Drow-Sacred-Fist-Follower-of-Vulkoor-16-3-1-Paladin-Monk-FvS

SWF Human Vistani (this one keeps the Sacred Fist level 18 Cores):

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/534489-The-closest-to-quot-Pure-quot-Sacred-Fist-Build-possible-18-1-1-Human-SWF-Sacred-Fist-Fav

[dogsoldier]

Sadly Heavy armor training feats do not give the prr and mrr if you take it.. I guess it only pertains to the sacred defender tree making it as if we were wearing heavy armor.

Regarding Heavy Armor and Defender: Well, kinda sorta, but its complicated. It really just makes Sacred Fist, while in Cloth Armor benefit from Defender stuff While Centered to essentially simulate wearing it for those enhancements, but not actually getting the other benefits of wearing Heavy armor (more PRR / uncapped MRR).

Also, if you take any of the Bladeforged / Warforged body feats then you cannot be centered (only the base body type works). So you want to swap that out if you took it, so you could get the centering of Kensei. That is a funny build, think if I went that route I would go PDK Bastard Sword SWF (follower of Helm), but then I already have my PDK lives. The reason I didn't consider variants of that myself is because that locks up my T5, and I like flexibility there to switch things around.