The stone of experience killed it for me.

[Lonesol]

That totally makes the achiement of leveling races and classes meaningless. I didn't know they existed, maybe if they weren't tradeable, but even that is to far. It means you can just buy the achievement. **** these pay 2 win gotcha garbage cash shops. Yeah I get whales keep games like this alive dumping 100s of thousands into the cash shop, but that's just to much for me. It's worse than eve online, atleast that some one had to earn the exp. This is just point blank going want to be the best, don't want to wait? Give us 10 grand and you will be the greatest.

Wish I never looked at what was in that Otto box.

[SimCat]

That totally makes the achiement of leveling races and classes meaningless. I didn't know they existed, maybe if they weren't tradeable, but even that is to far. It means you can just buy the achievement. **** these pay 2 win gotcha garbage cash shops. Yeah I get whales keep games like this alive dumping 100s of thousands into the cash shop, but that's just to much for me. It's worse than eve online, atleast that some one had to earn the exp. This is just point blank going want to be the best, don't want to wait? Give us 10 grand and you will be the greatest.

Wish I never looked at what was in that Otto box.

Why should someone else's playing experience affect your experience? If people are paying to win, how does that negatively impact your play? I imagine you'd just do you think one way or the other. Considering how long Otto boxes have been around and you're just finding out about them now, I would imagine it hasn't been affecting your experience much so far....

[Lonesol]

Why should someone else's playing experience affect your experience? If people are paying to win, how does that negatively impact your play? I imagine you'd just do you think one way or the other. Considering how long Otto boxes have been around and you're just finding out about them now, I would imagine it hasn't been affecting your experience much so far....

It's like this. Some one spent 10000 hours to achieve a metal, then some one else goes and spends some money and they give th the same thing. Makes the achiement meaningless. Yeah it didn't effect me because I didn't know it existed. I was working for thr achiement. Now any one who has it, it's just meaningless, because they just bought it. Ruined it. It would be equal to playing heroes of the Strom, league of legends, or Dota 2. You spent 10000 hours getting great at it, achieved a high rank. Then you find put if you give them 10 grand they give you a item that let's you one shot every one, and you can't lose. Making the achievement of the rank meaningless.

Your asking me to just ignore every one, and pretend none of that exists. Totally ruined that achievement which is what was making it interesting for me. I use to like reading the posts of people making it to the end of that, now their post to me is utterly meaningless. If I'm gonna ignore every one and make my own achievements I mise well just play a single player game.

[LayinAndPayin]

I understand you have issues with the stone, but in the end, it really shouldn't and could be completely ignored by you.
This isn't a pvp game were players can have some huge advantage over others by how many past lives they have and gear,
Also this is hardly a leader board based game where you get to see the best in the world players life's and skills and points, gear, achievements, or anything. If anything you can complety play ddo solo without a care for any other people. So what's the deal honestly, if people want to spend money let them lol, it doesn't affect you at all, and there's lots of reasons for it.
Messed up character, get through annoying class. Life, some just Dont like leveling in heroics or epics, but in the end its their descion, like DDO might be one of the only mmos that isn't really MMo speced, more of an solo/ and group if you want quest hub game with the unique Reincarnation system.

If I were you, worry less about other players just enjoy the game yourself

[Matuse]

There is no achievement. None. Also, you can't use Otto's boxes on Hardcore.

This is a lot of nothing.

[Oxarhamar]

It's like this. Some one spent 10000 hours to achieve a metal, then some one else goes and spends some money and they give th the same thing. Makes the achiement meaningless. Yeah it didn't effect me because I didn't know it existed. I was working for thr achiement. Now any one who has it, it's just meaningless, because they just bought it. Ruined it. It would be equal to playing heroes of the Strom, league of legends, or Dota 2. You spent 10000 hours getting great at it, achieved a high rank. Then you find put if you give them 10 grand they give you a item that let's you one shot every one, and you can't lose. Making the achievement of the rank meaningless.

Your asking me to just ignore every one, and pretend none of that exists. Totally ruined that achievement which is what was making it interesting for me. I use to like reading the posts of people making it to the end of that, now their post to me is utterly meaningless. If I'm gonna ignore every one and make my own achievements I mise well just play a single player game.

doesn't ruin the acheivment at all it's still earned by those who earned it even ifn it can be bought by those who wish to buy it

[Steeme]

The "best" players in the game can complete difficult content with first life toons. Stones aren't going to help you there.

[Wylf]

It's like this. Some one spent 10000 hours to achieve a metal, then some one else goes and spends some money and they give th the same thing. Makes the achiement meaningless. Yeah it didn't effect me because I didn't know it existed. I was working for thr achiement. Now any one who has it, it's just meaningless, because they just bought it. Ruined it. It would be equal to playing heroes of the Strom, league of legends, or Dota 2. You spent 10000 hours getting great at it, achieved a high rank. Then you find put if you give them 10 grand they give you a item that let's you one shot every one, and you can't lose. Making the achievement of the rank meaningless.

All of those games have one important difference to DDO - they are primarily PvP focused. Giving a player an item that let's them one-shot everybody would massively impact those other players and ruin their game experience. Conversely, since you'll likely never face another player in combat in DDO (unless you are *really* into Tavern brawls, I guess), you won't be negatively impacted by other players paying for Otto's Boxes. So your comparison doesn't really work very well.

Doesn't necessarily mean that there's nothing to criticize about Otto's Boxes, personally I'm not a big fan of 'em because I feel they're not really providing enough value for the (frankly ridiculous) amount of money they cost. Hence why I, and that may be a shocking solution to the problem, just plain don't buy 'em.

[Halciet]

If the stones are gamebreaking one could make an argument that every XP boost is. Either way fewer hurdles are required to reach the goal. You could even go all the way and say everyone who didn't play minimum HP gearless ranged builds through r10 all the way did not earn their past lives. As some have intimated this is a PvE game and to a great extent we pick our own challenge difficulty.

The only thing lost from people bankrolling through lives is the ability to see Uber Completionists and know they played through all those lives. What might be gained of course is SSG has the money to keep the game running. While I personally do not expect to ever buy Otto's Boxes as I quite enjoy the gameplay through each life, I can understand the people who do use them. I hope you enjoy the game enough to not let something like this bother you. Revel in your own accomplishments.

[Annex]

Ayup.

It's not just the boxes. There are experience potions that give +50% experience. You can buy Tomes in the store that give +8 to every ability score and +5 to every Skill. A subscription gives +10% experience on everything and Gold Daily Dice gives 10 times more experience than Silver. There are Tomes that give enhancement points. There are items in the store that completely negate powerful attacks like beholder eye rays. Gold Seal Hires from the expansions and for Astral Shards make traps far easier. So on.

If you play solo and do not use the game shop, achievement still matters. If you are the sort of person who seeks to compete against others in skill, DDO is a terrible game for that.

Sorry.

I miss Chai.

[C-Dog]

It's like this. Some one spent 10000 hours to achieve a medal, then some one else goes and spends some money and they give th the same thing. Makes the achiement meaningless...
Exactly.

So don't put any meaning on it. Problem solved.

If you're playing the game to be "teh uberest", well, you're planning for disappointment - and welcome to the internet.

Just play for "personal best", for fun, for the moment, for a distraction, for your personal goals. If I want to take a months-long hike from Canada to Mexico, I don't feel less because someone else can fly there in a few hours - that's not the point. If it is, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. (And someone who flies can't take the same credit the hiker can.)

Haff fun stomin' da cassul (or I suppose you could just buy it, your call) :cool:

[jskinner937]

It's like this. Some one spent 10000 hours to achieve a metal, then some one else goes and spends some money and they give th the same thing. Makes the achiement meaningless. Yeah it didn't effect me because I didn't know it existed. I was working for thr achiement. Now any one who has it, it's just meaningless, because they just bought it. Ruined it. It would be equal to playing heroes of the Strom, league of legends, or Dota 2. You spent 10000 hours getting great at it, achieved a high rank. Then you find put if you give them 10 grand they give you a item that let's you one shot every one, and you can't lose. Making the achievement of the rank meaningless.

Your asking me to just ignore every one, and pretend none of that exists. Totally ruined that achievement which is what was making it interesting for me. I use to like reading the posts of people making it to the end of that, now their post to me is utterly meaningless. If I'm gonna ignore every one and make my own achievements I mise well just play a single player game.

There is no real achievement in going from 1-20. It’s just a time grind. It’s really more like saying I farmed a chest 6 times for an item and someone refilled and got the same item in 2 runs with rerolls. And besides the fact you still need to grind out favor for coin lords, house k to unload your TR cache. And you still need to run some quests to get XP. To me it’s not any different than the slayer to cap group just less time and grind. Not p2w, but pay to bypass.

[Tyrande]

That totally makes the achiement of leveling races and classes meaningless.[...]best, don't want to wait? Give us 10 grand and you will be the greatest.

Wish I never looked at what was in that Otto box.

Play for fun, not for "win". DDO store also sells a Staples Winning button. You press the button and you win DDO.

10 grand does not sound easy. Some people worked the summer or whatever hours to make that 10 grand to "pay" *coughs* achieve that...

Either way, people either time playing OR people spend time working and getting the money to pay for that...

Also, the racial past lives are not necessary to play for fun. I mean its nice and having those extra APs or extra stat points; but not required.

(or someone else in that people's relatives paid for it... either way, its not free)

[Martininice]

It's like this. Some one spent 10000 hours to achieve a metal, then some one else goes and spends some money and they give th the same thing. Makes the achiement meaningless. Yeah it didn't effect me because I didn't know it existed. I was working for thr achiement. Now any one who has it, it's just meaningless, because they just bought it. Ruined it. It would be equal to playing heroes of the Strom, league of legends, or Dota 2. You spent 10000 hours getting great at it, achieved a high rank. Then you find put if you give them 10 grand they give you a item that let's you one shot every one, and you can't lose. Making the achievement of the rank meaningless.

Your asking me to just ignore every one, and pretend none of that exists. Totally ruined that achievement which is what was making it interesting for me. I use to like reading the posts of people making it to the end of that, now their post to me is utterly meaningless. If I'm gonna ignore every one and make my own achievements I mise well just play a single player game.

Not the biggest fan of Otto's boxes myself. But your problem is you perceive a tool as an achievement. Nobody cares about past lives as an achievement, they are tools to improve your character. And past lives is more or less the thing these boxes buy you.

[Jomee]

Why care about how others find their satisfaction in DDO? The slayer boosts, daily dice rolls and xp pots accomplish the same thing on a smaller scale.

It's just a game for entertainment purposes with no physical effects on real life besides being a time and money sink.

Definitely not worth being upset over or calling on regulating how others should play. Be a zerger, a flower-sniffer, a soloist or a whale and/or every other play style in-between.

[droid327]

Hate to break it to you but you can buy Olympic gold medals too. Does that meant the Olympics are pointless? You can buy a helicopter ride to the top of most mountains, does that mean mountain climbing doesnt mean anything?

An achievement shouldn't be defined by other people NOT having it. Its defined by what YOU did.

If it means something to you because you know how much effort you put in and challenge you overcame, then it doesnt matter what other people do, because it still has that intrinsic value. If it only means something to you because having something other people dont makes you feel better about yourself...well then you probably need to do some self-reflection.

[eightspoons]

I personally have no problem with people buying their way through multiple lives with boxes. Whatever, go ahead. Keeps the lights switched on for everyone.

What I don't like is people who rush madly to complete every life, get every single reaper point and obtain every piece of raid gear as quickly as possible, and then complain how there is nothing to do any more or no further rewards to be obtained.

[archest]

dude make it a personal experience.
racing to the top leaves a lot of boredom when you get there the trip is the fun of it.

[Oliphant]

People are saying you just need to shift your perspective but it seems to me a shift in perspective does not necessarily result in you wanting to spend your time on DDO versus other worthwhile pursuits, lets not take that for granted. Its probably good you found out about Otto Boxes, you found out something factually accurate. I think at this point its having fun or bust. If you still having fun then you'll probably get over the shift in perspective. Full disclosure, I munch on Otto Boxes, and comparing my toon progress to yours is apples and oranges. On the positive note, I'm willing to play with and help all and not judging players based on toons. In a way I think we're all better off to find out our video game fun is not a major accomplishment.

[Bagel99]

People are saying you just need to shift your perspective but it seems to me a shift in perspective does not necessarily result in you wanting to spend your time on DDO versus other worthwhile pursuits, lets not take that for granted. Its probably good you found out about Otto Boxes, you found out something factually accurate. I think at this point its having fun or bust. If you still having fun then you'll probably get over the shift in perspective. Full disclosure, I munch on Otto Boxes, and comparing my toon progress to yours is apples and oranges. On the positive note, I'm willing to play with and help all and not judging players based on toons. In a way I think we're all better off to find out our video game fun is not a major accomplishment.

I too use Otto's but as a tool, i save a few just for a gimpy toon i cant stand to level anymore since my main is all i see worthwhile playing atm. If they made it an account based progression .... well we would be onto something. Anyways not to sidetrack but other buying Ottos and getting more lives would in turn make it easier for you to get lives as the players around you are inherently stronger? Its also a nice easy way to make an hour or so of real life work save me hours of in game work to enjoy a cool whacky build. Hell if they had a way to buy cool things like $500 for a cosmetic item designed with your ideas id buy it to support these folks.

[hale99]

I too use Otto's but as a tool, i save a few just for a gimpy toon i cant stand to level anymore since my main is all i see worthwhile playing atm. If they made it an account based progression .... well we would be onto something. Anyways not to sidetrack but other buying Ottos and getting more lives would in turn make it easier for you to get lives as the players around you are inherently stronger? Its also a nice easy way to make an hour or so of real life work save me hours of in game work to enjoy a cool whacky build. Hell if they had a way to buy cool things like $500 for a cosmetic item designed with your ideas id buy it to support these folks.

Sort of the same idea here... My main is near triple cometionist and all epic lives done and having almost all racials done. I used a couple boxes for heroic completionist for the lives I hated. I just did the same to knock out a few racial lives I wasn't thrilled about doing. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

I put a lot of work in on my main and it's fine to be able to take a break and skip a bunch of lives that I don't want to do. Heroics for me are very tedious. I can zoom though them but I'm more of a fan of epic and legendary content.

[Sqrlmonger]

Hate to break it to you but you can buy Olympic gold medals too. Does that meant the Olympics are pointless? You can buy a helicopter ride to the top of most mountains, does that mean mountain climbing doesnt mean anything?

An achievement shouldn't be defined by other people NOT having it. Its defined by what YOU did.

If it means something to you because you know how much effort you put in and challenge you overcame, then it doesnt matter what other people do, because it still has that intrinsic value. If it only means something to you because having something other people dont makes you feel better about yourself...well then you probably need to do some self-reflection.

You can buy the medal, but you cannot buy your name in the books as a participant and gold medal finisher in the Olympics. This is not a good analogy for that reason.

While I do agree the value it has as an achievement is what you place in it, it is perfectly normal that it bothers people when someone else cheapens it. Far from being an indication that someone needs "self-reflection" (which is quite a dramatic take) it is a perfectly normal reaction. If I were to give my own dramatic take I could point out that I can also buy military medals and many people would, justifiably, be VERY angry if I wore them in ANY way that indicated I had earned them. The difference between that and this is a difference of degree not principle. And to be fair, it is quite a LARGE difference in degree, but the point stands that your arguments about it not changing the meaning/value could be used to defend stolen valor.

Ultimately though it is a silly argument, it very clearly cheapens the achievement but equally clear is the fact they (Otto's Boxes) aren't going anywhere.

[Eantarus]

Makes the achiement meaningless.

The achievement was always meaningless.

If a past life is all it takes to make you feel good about yourself, why not just write "I am the best" on a piece of paper and tape it to your wall? Then you've got an achievement that no one can ever take away from you. It won't mean anything to anyone else, but past lives in DDO are the exact same way: meaningless.

[adamkatt]

That totally makes the achiement of leveling races and classes meaningless. I didn't know they existed, maybe if they weren't tradeable, but even that is to far. It means you can just buy the achievement. **** these pay 2 win gotcha garbage cash shops. Yeah I get whales keep games like this alive dumping 100s of thousands into the cash shop, but that's just to much for me. It's worse than eve online, atleast that some one had to earn the exp. This is just point blank going want to be the best, don't want to wait? Give us 10 grand and you will be the greatest.

Wish I never looked at what was in that Otto box.

one ottos box with a 50% xp pot /vom/ guild ship buffs still wont get you all the way to 20(on A 3rd life+).... ive used quite a few but have never bought them from the store.. i use in game events to earn shards and hope someone posts an ottos box for a decent price.

and some people have more money than time.. also more money than sense .. me personally? i dont care what others have or havent used... thats them not me...

[boredGamer]

That totally makes the achiement of leveling races and classes meaningless. I didn't know they existed, maybe if they weren't tradeable, but even that is to far. It means you can just buy the achievement. **** these pay 2 win gotcha garbage cash shops. Yeah I get whales keep games like this alive dumping 100s of thousands into the cash shop, but that's just to much for me. It's worse than eve online, atleast that some one had to earn the exp. This is just point blank going want to be the best, don't want to wait? Give us 10 grand and you will be the greatest.

Wish I never looked at what was in that Otto box.

You could play for fun ?

[Nugaot]

I'm not going to try to defend Otto's Boxes. I think it's a waste of money, personally.

However,


It would be equal to playing heroes of the Strom, league of legends, or Dota 2. You spent 10000 hours getting great at it, achieved a high rank. Then you find put if you give them 10 grand they give you a item that let's you one shot every one, and you can't lose. Making the achievement of the rank meaningless.

This? A poor analogy. Believe me, you can tell when you're playing with an actual über completionist versus an account buyer. Money is not a substitute for skill. You could do every life with Otto's boxes and still die in the Waterworks.

[gravisrs]

Pay 2 win assumes there is "win" category in DDO.

(well there is a "You win DDO!" in description of completionists feats, but its just a joke)

You know you can buy Button of Winning in DDO store for just 25 TP?

[Sqrlmonger]

Pay 2 win assumes there is "win" category in DDO.

(well there is a "You win DDO!" in description of completionists feats, but its just a joke)

You know you can buy Button of Winning in DDO store for just 25 TP?

You don't "win" at DDO as a whole any more than you "win" at LoL/Dota/Overwatch/etc...

But you do "win" a match in those games just as you "win" a raid or quest you are attempting in DDO

PvE games can absolutely be P2W, and Otto's boxes undeniably are P2W. They are also, however, far from the most predatory and horrible version of it.

I dislike them greatly, but again they aren't going anywhere because they serve a business purpose for SSG. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the plain reality of what they objectively are.

[ned_ellis]

OP, write it in your toon bio.
I echo others - each to one's own fun; this game doesn't cater to 'leader boards'. If you feel you still need some 'street cred', you're better off going for chase items and glamouring them as cosmetics than doing all the tr's tbh.

[Raithe]

Why should someone else's playing experience affect your experience?...

Because this is a grouping game. If I didn't need other players to play and act within the structure of a rational game, DDO might as well be an offline game playable without internet connections. For me, that is exactly what it is currently and probably for what life remains in it.

All the people trying to claim that what other people do for their enjoyment as a part of the game world is immaterial to someone else within that same game world are exactly the people you don't want to encourage if you want your game to have a long (multiple decades) and active history.

For the record, DDO has been failing at player retention since the very beginning. The proof is in the pudding.

[ahpook]

The achievement was always meaningless.

This. It is a game. Played for amusement.

If one did put meaning in it, it was a personal meaning and it is not cheapened by someone else accomplishing the goal through other means. There are a number of ways that other people may have diminished the goal by playing different* and getting upset by how others do it is not meaningful. Have your goal, accomplish your goal, and be proud of your "accomplishment."



* e.g. play favorite class lives and use LR20's or use favorite race and wish of memories to get past lives needed. I am not claiming there is anything wrong with that but someone who thinks there is only one true way to get the achievement may think otherwise.