Turn Undead In Epic levels

[Raynebowdragon]

I have read a few posts on this and read some of the replies in my quest to find answers: OPs post a problem with turning undead - replies vary from - I have no problem to me too. The I have no problem replies refer to checks and levels and two dice rolls etc so I am going to post what I am experiencing as a Cleric who has spent 65 lives building a Turn Undead Clonk. (Please do not hijack this post and turn it into a whine about hirelings)

First let's introduce the Toon
She is a Cleric 16 - Monk 4 her Wis is at 54 and her Cha is at 52 up at level 20. Throughout her levels she changes to level releveant hallowed and faith gear, she has 3 past life Cleric and Aureon as a Deity she has the Seek Eternal Rest spell always handy and has GH clickies, she also has improved turn undead feat, mighty turning and takes the Undead Domain she has completionist and has read +8 Supreme Tome. For filigrees that come into effect at level 23 she wears Final Burial HD rare (of a set of 4) and Angelic Wings HD rare (Of a set of 3).

At level through the Heroic levels and up to R4, unless she comes across red name undead or deathwarded champ, she turns every undead that comes at her no matter how large the group is, she used to see "you lack conviction" often 63 lives ago, she never sees it now. However come Epic Levels and after Domains were implemented into the game the amount of undead she can turn in a single attempt is reduced to 2 or 3.

Her turn levels are more than adequate, her cha is adequate, her turning gear is the best you can get, she does not see "you lack conviction" yet she only turns 2 or 3... Considering her build it cannot be the turn levels, its definitely not lacking conviction, it cant be dmg rolls she has mighty turning... So SSG why oh why since bringing in domains does my Mighty Undead Turner only mightily turn 3 undead per attempt?

It makes living multiple lives and spending a lifetime building an Undead Turner pointless as soon as you reach Epic levels and that is the point isn't it... Building Characters that are effective in Epic Levels?

[LightBear]

Not just Clerics, Paladins are at a worst position as they are 4 levels behind clerics for turning undeads.

[Tyrande]

I have [...]

It makes living multiple lives and spending a lifetime building an Undead Turner pointless as soon as you reach Epic levels and that is the point isn't it... Building Characters that are effective in Epic Levels?

I don't know if your character expects those undead be feared, stunned or destroyed.

Turning in DDO, like pets (from summoning); especially epic levels; has been difficult.

For destruction...
Try frogging, Sunburst or implosion. You may get better results.

[Tyrande]

[...]
First let's introduce the Toon
She is a Cleric 16 - Monk 4 her Wis is at 54 and her Cha is at 52 up at level 20.... [...] Building Characters that are effective in Epic Levels?

I think here is part of your problem. Your cleric isn't level 20 pure cleric.

Turning is based on "Cleric" levels. No amount of "completionists" or reaper points can fix this.

P.S. The wiki said being "Sun Elf" and take Bane of the restless adds +6 to the turning level;
and taking the radiant servant tree adds +3 exceptional turning level. So try those.

[Raynebowdragon]

I think here is part of your problem. Your cleric isn't level 20 pure cleric.

Turning is based on "Cleric" levels. No amount of "completionists" or reaper points can fix this.

P.S. The wiki said being "Sun Elf" and take Bane of the restless adds +6 to the turning level;
and taking the radiant servant tree adds +3 exceptional turning level. So try those.

From the maths that myself and a friend did, the 4 levels of monk make no difference! Even changing my preferred build and spawning her as a sun elf with bane of the restless and dropping 4 monk levels I could not better what I am already doing.... Conclusion is its a game issue not a build issue and turn undead is not keeping up with the Joneses... I am also informed that SSG offered a huge nerf as a solution instead offering to fix the issue at the cost of the insta kill...

No Cleric wants to sacrifice insta kill for mass cowardice... My suggestion is fix the issue and cap the amount of mob that can be successfully destroyed to 8 or 6 something like that rather than remove the ability to insta kill successfully turned undead I mean its what a Cleric does isn't it?

It's an issue that keeps being swept under the carpet causing players all over the game to shelve their Clerics because Turn Undead is not viable in the Epic Levels the mobs have a huge amount of hit dice when you get there and over 100 cha just to get one more turned undead is a ridiculous ask. Ok Dark Apostate might have people dusting off their Clerics for a while but that won't last long if they can't utilise the most attractive feature of any Cleric.

Maybe SSG if you read this you might notice how beefed up she is in the turn undead skill and how disappointing it is after beefing her that much that she gets to epic levels and I find she can NEVER do any better than 2 mobs turned. I might think about dropping the monk levels if it made a difference but it won't in fact nothing I do will make any kind of difference until you rehash turn undead!

[Bluenoser]

That is puzzling. My second-life 18 cleric/2 FVS light-blaster (not really specced for turning) was at least able to turn (cower) in epic low reaper pretty consistently, usually 2-3 mobs, with an occasionally 1 or 2 destroyed. One of the regulars I run R10s with had a full-on Cleric 20 turner who could destroy large packs of mobs and cower the odd straggler. She wasn't even Sun Elf, which adds a big boost although it locks out Aureon's Instruction deity feat (which has such a long timer--10 minutes!!--that I'd much rather have the always-on +6 from Sun Elf.) Not trying to deny that you're experiencing your problem, it's just...odd.

So, a few things to consider:

-you didn't mention what EDs you're in. I'm assuming EA and tier 3 of Bane of Undeath ("You gain the Turn Undead feat. +1/2/3 uses of Turn Undead. Rank 3: If you have the Improved Turning feat, +3 to Effective Level for Turn Undead, +3 to Maximum Hit Dice for Turn Undead, and +3 Hit Die for Turn Undead.") I'd also take the low-hanging fruit from Primal Avatar (cocoon, +2 cha and wis).

-missing 4 cleric levels is going to matter; class levels are baked right into the formula

-52 CHA at lvl 20 is good, but could be higher. Assuming as a turner you start with 18, you can get to about 60 even before Yugo, supreme, and alchemical pots or CHA from racial lives. Something to consider: Capstone in Feydark could give you +6 CHA alone (2 from cores, 2 from tiers 3 and 4, +2 from capstone). 2 more from Radiant Servant, 3 from reaper tree, 2 more maybe from a racial tree (Sun Elf--why is this still Intelligence in 2022?!?), another 2 CHA and WIS from Primal Avatar.

-what maps are you running where you see this issue the most? It could be there are some whose mob HD weren't sufficiently scaled down in the revamp last year. Go into those maps and examine the mob level

-I know what the wiki says about it stacking, but the Seek Eternal Rest spell doesn't stack with Sacred gear bonuses. The tooltips say the spell adds a sacred bonus while Sacred gear adds an enhancement bonus, but they are actually coded the same. When I'm wearing the Epic Sacred Helm at lvl 20 (+9 Sacred) and then cast Seek Eternal Rest, the latter doesn't show up on my buff bar; when I take it off, the buff appears. That means the spell is being overridden by the (higher) gear. As you get into "edge case" situations on hit dice, the absence of any spell support for turning might become noticeable (this should be fixed to make the spell actually stack; even better if it scaled up with more cleric/pally levels...).

-maybe someone who's tested this more thoroughly than I have can answer this, but my impression was that the "class" levels for turning (cleric/pally) don't progress past 20. The automatic Epic Knowledge feat now gives "+1 caster level and +1 max caster level" every 2 epic levels, starting at 22, but does it apply to turning? Under the old ED system, if you were in a Divine destiny it actually added up to +5 cleric and pally level, so I suspect the revamped system was a straight-up -5 nerf to turning. If this is right, you're looking at 12 levels past 20 that turners get absolutely 0 inherent progression against. That's pretty silly for a signature class ability that's only very situationally useful.

Anyway, sorry you're frustrated by this issue and I hope the ideas above can help.