Please keep classic TOEE

[DreamingReality]

Yes, TOEE is long. Yes, most players like to zerg through it, and it can be done quickly in about 30 mins. or less if you ignore the optionals. But, it also is one of the few quests that you feel like you have really accomplished something when you finish it. Instead of scrapping the whole thing for shorter quests, please do something like you have for Haunted Halls and allow players to enter the "classic" version or the "express" version. There are already tons of short and medium length quests. But TOEE and Haunted Halls are the only two quests you have that are in-depth adventures.

[Oxarhamar]

Yes, TOEE is long. Yes, most players like to zerg through it, and it can be done quickly in about 30 mins. or less if you ignore the optionals. But, it also is one of the few quests that you feel like you have really accomplished something when you finish it. Instead of scrapping the whole thing for shorter quests, please do something like you have for Haunted Halls and allow players to enter the "classic" version or the "express" version. There are already tons of short and medium length quests. But TOEE and Haunted Halls are the only two quests you have that are in-depth adventures.

I think breaking it up into multiple quests is wise & should have been done from the start (more than just the 2

When you first enter there is an orb which the voice over tells you how the module lasts over an entire summer of dnd session so lumping it into 2 quests feels wrong

[Eantarus]

Aren't they leaving Part 1 as is and only breaking Part 2 into bits?

Part 1 is beautiful. Part 2 is hot garbage. I can count on one hand the number of times I've done part 2 because it is so tedious and unpleasant to play. Part 2 can go straight to hell and will never be missed.

[DreamingReality]

When you first enter there is an orb which the voice over tells you how the module lasts over an entire summer of dnd session so lumping it into 2 quests feels wrong

Playing the quests as it is now does feel like an entire summer. :P

[DreamingReality]

Aren't they leaving Part 1 as is and only breaking Part 2 into bits?

Part 1 is beautiful. Part 2 is hot garbage. I can count on one hand the number of times I've done part 2 because it is so tedious and unpleasant to play. Part 2 can go straight to hell and will never be missed.

I hope you are right. I don't have quite as strong feelings about Part 2, but I do think Ziggy should be an optional at least as the quests are now. There are certainly not enough mushrooms and having death mushrooms spawn to trick you is unkind.

[Oxarhamar]

Playing the quests as it is now does feel like an entire summer. :P

Lol

That’s why I think it should be broken down

It would be cool if it was set up like Depths chain so that you can step into the next one without exiting

[Annex]

Aren't they leaving Part 1 as is and only breaking Part 2 into bits?

If I understand correctly, the new Temple works as follows:

New quest 1: Old quest 1, first floor
New quest 2: Old quest 1, floors 2 and 3; entry requires new quest 1
New quest 3: Old quest 2 air node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 4: Old quest 1 earth node, entry requires quest 2
New quest 5: Old quest 2 fire node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 6: Old quest 2 water node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 7: Old quest 2 foyer and Zuggtmoy; entry requires quests 3, 4, 5, 6

Edit: Corrected as per Yamani's post below.

I may have the official order for quests 3, 4, 5, and 6 incorrect. I forget. Quests 1 through 6 have new objectives, requiring the character to find special items for completion. The item for charming Earth elementals is gone.

Many players are upset because of the increased flagging requirements to open Zuggtmoy. Some players report low experience from all quests. The quests remain materially the same, minus some monster packs. Essentially, you now save your progress at 6 way points instead of one way point.

The old crafting system is going away but ingredients and a crafting bench remain in the game. New loot was posted in multiple threads by Zavina. [Edit] Old named items, minus the crafting blanks, still drop.

The chance of the Temple update not happening is a number approaching zero, probably requiring an Earth with large asteroid collision or the eruption of the Yellowstone caldera. I am sorry.

[Yamani]

If I understand correctly, the new Temple works as follows:

New quest 1: Old quest 1, first floor
New quest 2: Old quest 1, floors 2 and 3; entry requires new quest 1
New quest 3: Old quest 2 air node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 4: Old quest 2 fire node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 5: Old quest 2 water node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 6: Old quest 2 foyer and Zuggtmoy; entry requires quests 3, 4, 5

I may have the official order for quests 3, 4, and 5 incorrect. I forget. Quests 1 through 5 have new objectives, requiring the character to find special items for completion. The item for charming Earth elementals is gone.

Many players are upset because of the increased flagging requirements to open Zuggtmoy. Some players report low experience from all quests. The quests remain materially the same, minus some monster packs. Essentially, you now save your progress at 5 way points instead of one way point.

The old crafting system is going away but ingredients and a crafting bench remain in the game. New loot was posted in multiple threads by Zavina.

The chance of the Temple update not happening is a number approaching zero, probably requiring an Earth with large asteroid collision or the eruption of the Yellowstone caldera. I am sorry.

New quest 6: Old quest 2: Earth node, entry requires new quest 2.
New quest 7: Old quest 2 foyer and Zuggtmoy; entry requires quests 3, 4, 5, 6

[Phoenicis]

If I understand correctly, the new Temple works as follows:

New quest 1: Old quest 1, first floor
New quest 2: Old quest 1, floors 2 and 3; entry requires new quest 1
New quest 3: Old quest 2 air node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 4: Old quest 2 fire node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 5: Old quest 2 water node; entry requires new quest 2
New quest 6: Old quest 2 foyer and Zuggtmoy; entry requires quests 3, 4, 5

I may have the official order for quests 3, 4, and 5 incorrect. I forget. Quests 1 through 5 have new objectives, requiring the character to find special items for completion. The item for charming Earth elementals is gone.

Many players are upset because of the increased flagging requirements to open Zuggtmoy. Some players report low experience from all quests. The quests remain materially the same, minus some monster packs. Essentially, you now save your progress at 5 way points instead of one way point.

The old crafting system is going away but ingredients and a crafting bench remain in the game. New loot was posted in multiple threads by Zavina.

The chance of the Temple update not happening is a number approaching zero, probably requiring an Earth with large asteroid collision or the eruption of the Yellowstone caldera. I am sorry.

I haven't been following the changes this update, mainly trying to hit 20 on HC. This one bit caught my eye though:
No earth node now? Have they gotten rid of all the earth drops? I know the items drop complete now unlike previously but there were earth (acid) items that needed the earth mushrooms, are those all gone?

[Annex]

New quest 6: Old quest 2: Earth node, entry requires new quest 2.
New quest 7: Old quest 2 foyer and Zuggtmoy; entry requires quests 3, 4, 5, 6

Thanks Yamani. I knew I would goof it up. I corrected my previous post.

[Ganondorf2002]

They could always make this version of TOEE a separate pack. It would allow players to have access to the current version that is out and don't mind the extra long play of part 2. And having the new version would allow a simpler way to play through the temple in stages. I do enjoy the current design and am looking forward to the new version. But on the same hand I am one who sometimes just loves to run around in large area like the underdark to see what I can trash next.

[Eantarus]

They could always make this version of TOEE a separate pack. It would allow players to have access to the current version that is out and don't mind the extra long play of part 2. And having the new version would allow a simpler way to play through the temple in stages. I do enjoy the current design and am looking forward to the new version. But on the same hand I am one who sometimes just loves to run around in large area like the underdark to see what I can trash next.

The real problem with ToEE wasn't the long play but rather the unforgivably terrible loot table. There's over 500 item blanks that can drop. That's just too many when easily 80% of them will never see the light of play. I would have been perfectly happy if they fixed that alone. I will miss the OG temple; knowing they plan to change P1 makes me want to see it preserved.

[Nite_Prowler]

So, SSG is dumbing down another quest again?

Just make every quest so easy that there's no challenge, is that the idea?

Good grief.

[kmoustakas]

Yes, TOEE is long. Yes, most players like to zerg through it, and it can be done quickly in about 30 mins. or less if you ignore the optionals. But, it also is one of the few quests that you feel like you have really accomplished something when you finish it. Instead of scrapping the whole thing for shorter quests, please do something like you have for Haunted Halls and allow players to enter the "classic" version or the "express" version. There are already tons of short and medium length quests. But TOEE and Haunted Halls are the only two quests you have that are in-depth adventures.

I thought I was the only one that liked the current iteration. For me it's like a badge of honour when a character build can solo it on heroic r1 and I like doing i full for the possibility of rares. I can't see why we can't have both versions going on at once.

[FuzzyDuck81]

I thought I was the only one that liked the current iteration. For me it's like a badge of honour when a character build can solo it on heroic r1 and I like doing i full for the possibility of rares. I can't see why we can't have both versions going on at once.

Yeah I enjoy the current iteration too, I always run part 1 on heroic during levelling with a basic run of part 2 too since it has some great xp especially when you take into account the sheer variety of mobs for the monster manual.

Looks like i'm going to be doing multiple full heroic part 2 runs on a highbie to farm mushrooms & craftable weapons this week, with the AoEs those things are beasts in the low to mid heroic levels.

Also, just to nitpick, in the quest order air should really follow fire, with water afterwards, then earth, just to keep it in the avatar cycle like it is currently :)

[Bjond]

New quest 7: Old quest 2 foyer and Zuggtmoy; entry requires quests [123456]

Due to the consecutive flagging (uh, why? entire game population has roundly beaten SSG up over and over for excessively pointless flagging), it's actually WORSE and LONGER than it was.

It did need to be broken up for length, but the time for that was back at release. They'd have to update it for relevance in someway in addition to the splits and from what I can tell they're not doing that.

Heroic relevance means XP earned has to exceed other quests in the same level for XP/min, which is really all that matters in heroic content. Few want to play it, they just want their PLs and to be done with it.

Epic relevance means XP earned PLUS saga XP banked. If it doesn't do both, it's not worth playing other than once for curiosity. At L26, the items literally do not matter in epic unless they do something crazy like make them as good as capped gear. The non-crazy way to do that would be to bump it's epic level.

If they bump epic up to L31+ (eg. at least similar to RL), make it a mini-saga, and make the items an interesting option for at-cap gear, well, THAT would make the entire project worthwhile. But, they're not doing that. So, the whole thing becomes a tiny little "eh? whatever".

[Annex]

Due to the consecutive flagging (uh, why? entire game population has roundly beaten SSG up over and over for excessively pointless flagging), it's actually WORSE and LONGER than it was.

That aspect of the Temple update does suck and I agree that flagging, in general, needs the heave ho.


If they bump epic up to L31+ (eg. at least similar to RL), make it a mini-saga, and make the items an interesting option for at-cap gear, well, THAT would make the entire project worthwhile. But, they're not doing that. So, the whole thing becomes a tiny little "eh? whatever".

The legendary quests will be level 31. I added the saga suggestion to the relevant thread. The equipment is heavily skewed to casters, for sure.

[DreamingReality]

Looks like i'm going to be doing multiple full heroic part 2 runs on a highbie to farm mushrooms & craftable weapons this week, with the AoEs those things are beasts in the low to mid heroic levels.


Ugh, if they are going to scrap the mushrooms, my husband and I will have to be farming like crazy, too. Yeah, once again, I think it is that people don't understand the potential or what they are for because it has been so long since release. Instead, of running some sort of new look explaining old quests and how to create their loot, they chop it up and get rid of the good stuff while keeping (or adding) what most people didn't like (flagging all four to get to Ziggy). By removing the mushrooms and craftable loot, instead of running this at least twice per life, it will probably drop to a once per life or less quest for me especially since there will no longer be the challenge it has held.

The real irony here is that they keep coming up with new crafting systems (like Isle of Dread) while dumping old ones. I literally just finally finished converting all my scroll/seal/shard mismatched groups. I still have to go through and use the full sets I have collected in order to finish out that crafting matrix.

[Enoach]

I'm one of those people that think making TOEE 2 quests was not good.

I like that they are breaking it out into multiple quests. Based on the descriptions I think these quests are broken out nicely.

Now for the part I disagree with:

The final Quest should not require every Node Quest be completed to enter. That is one of the parts I liked about the current version of TOEE, you didn't need to do every elemental node.

But, If memory serves me correctly, they also mentioned reduction in the number of mobs and size of groups.

I personally wasn't a fan of a slayer area within a quest. :)

[Oxarhamar]

I'm one of those people that think making TOEE 2 quests was not good.

I like that they are breaking it out into multiple quests. Based on the descriptions I think these quests are broken out nicely.

Now for the part I disagree with:

The final Quest should not require every Node Quest be completed to enter. That is one of the parts I liked about the current version of TOEE, you didn't need to do every elemental node.

But, If memory serves me correctly, they also mentioned reduction in the number of mobs and size of groups.

I personally wasn't a fan of a slayer area within a quest. :)

I agree it should be broken up from the start but, I also thought that slayer area in the quest was awesome it meant that hunting for ingrediants could be done while gaining xp

Making it a flagging requirement is bad flagging is played out

[FuzzyDuck81]

The final Quest should not require every Node Quest be completed to enter. That is one of the parts I liked about the current version of TOEE, you didn't need to do every elemental node.



IMO if they implemented a thing like they did in isle of dread with the attunements that'd be a great middleground - have it so you can get to the zuggy fight with only 1, but if you've completed all 4 elements beforehand there are bonus chests available.

[Raithe]

Yes, TOEE is long. Yes, most players like to zerg through it, and it can be done quickly in about 30 mins. or less if you ignore the optionals. But, it also is one of the few quests that you feel like you have really accomplished something when you finish it. Instead of scrapping the whole thing for shorter quests, please do something like you have for Haunted Halls and allow players to enter the "classic" version or the "express" version. There are already tons of short and medium length quests. But TOEE and Haunted Halls are the only two quests you have that are in-depth adventures.

While I agree that being prevented (at least without XP penalty) from leaving the existing quests to sell and repair (note Part 1 has a repair vendor inside it) provides a more immersive and engaging D&D crawler experience, I think that experience is short-lived. The strength of ToEE, in my opinion, is in the random design of mob and treasure placement, which makes the quests far more replayable than the standard DDO fair. For those that prioritize this way of playing, the problem with ToEE is that you don't have enough space to hold the items you receive during the quest. I limit my characters to 2 pages of gear before entering a quest, and they always run out of inventory space (3 pages = 60 items) before either of the parts of ToEE are completed.

Breaking the quests up into smaller chunks should alleviate that problem. You can always run multiple quests at once if you aren't low on inventory space.

Note: It is technically possible to run both Part 1 and 2 currently without leaving a dungeon instance. They could easily implement the same option for the smaller chunk size.

[J1NG]

Probably would have been too much work for a quick "fix", but I would have thought that SSG would have done an Isle of Dread chain instance here and made the final part of original ToEE to be the same as the temple (last quest of the IoD chain). And each of the elemental temple + nodes was a debuff counter effect that you could apply at the start of the raid to neutralise an effect, otherwise, you need to run the raid (the fight with Zuggy) with the effects active, just like the final quest in the Isle of Dread chain, or go in with a superior group.

You would then only need to do any one of the Temple quests to gain access, but like in IoD, deactivations of the debuffs only occur once and need to be reobtained to remove the debuff/effect in the final fight (now raid). So full run would be ideal or go in with exceptional group and gear to brute force, etc.

Certainly wasn't expecting the way it was chosen to be done, but again, given the time frame and quick "fix" nature of it all, also not surprised.

J1NG

[LittleLexi]

Probably would have been too much work for a quick "fix", but I would have thought that SSG would have done an Isle of Dread chain instance here and made the final part of original ToEE to be the same as the temple (last quest of the IoD chain). And each of the elemental temple + nodes was a debuff counter effect that you could apply at the start of the raid to neutralise an effect, otherwise, you need to run the raid (the fight with Zuggy) with the effects active, just like the final quest in the Isle of Dread chain, or go in with a superior group.

You would then only need to do any one of the Temple quests to gain access, but like in IoD, deactivations of the debuffs only occur once and need to be reobtained to remove the debuff/effect in the final fight (now raid). So full run would be ideal or go in with exceptional group and gear to brute force, etc.

Certainly wasn't expecting the way it was chosen to be done, but again, given the time frame and quick "fix" nature of it all, also not surprised.

J1NG

See this is a really neat idea and compromise. Instead – most of our feedback goes nowhere, and we get shoddy updates as a result.

[DreamingReality]

See this is a really neat idea and compromise. Instead – most of our feedback goes nowhere, and we get shoddy updates as a result.

Not to mention pushing something out so quickly that it breaks most of the game and their next 5 quick fixes will have to be focused on those. It is one thing to make fast changes to bugs, for instance the door to the Gianthold slayer area, but completely revamping something old and putting in something new just because some people didn't like it the way it was and doing it overnight means you are just going to upset people. I mean consider Catacombs--when they revamped that, they DID listen to what people wanted and actually fixed it, but it took time and careful preparation. I don't think anyone complained about that "fix" even though it was different in some ways because they improved it.

[Knightrose]

I'm sad about the change as well. I think the cool thing about classic TOEE is that it felt like a D&D module or adventure. Zugg was also a unique fight. A surprise difficulty and really felt like a boss to overcome. I haven't fought the new Zugg but I'm sure it's just another HP sponge like so many 'dumbed down' bosses. Even if I'm wrong it's not the old Zugg and that's too bad. Maybe our argument is only sentimental but that should matter too. Not every inch of content in the game needs to have the same structure. I mean, that's what is cool about DDO. Or was. It seems to be getting flattened as time goes on.

[OfElectricMen]

I think the cool thing about classic TOEE is that it felt like a D&D module or adventure. Maybe if you never actually ran through pnp ToEE (no, not even then). ToEE requires a fair bit of thinking, planning, retreating, hiding, and recovery. None of that applied in the DDO version.

[vageta311]

Maybe if you never actually ran through pnp ToEE (no, not even then). ToEE requires a fair bit of thinking, planning, retreating, hiding, and recovery. None of that applied in the DDO version.

I don't think that's the point he's making. Literally no quest that was a former pnp adventure requires planning in video game format, I believe he was meaning the grandness of it. The old TOEE was bloated, but not in a bad way. If you wanted to rush through you could, but you could also take your time and explore the temple. Even though the full quest was long, you could rush it and ignore everything else, or you could work on slayer kills, or farm named chests without even finishing the quest, etc.. Part 2 was no different. It was an extremely long quest if someone wanted to actually complete everything, but it also could be rushed by doing only the 1 required elemental node.

Now we are forced into doing everything basically, and breaking it into multiple quests makes it feel like a bunch of separate quests instead of one cohesive story that you could choose to interact with as much or as little as you liked. Yes TOEE in pnp format took an entire summer, but that's because a normal combat scenario takes 15-30 mins in pnp, whereas it takes like 15 seconds in game. Of course it feel shorter. The entire point to why TOEE was supposed to be revamped is to make it shorter... but in reality they extended the length by forcing you to do everything now.

In reality, the simplest change would have been to leave the quest as is, increase the exp to match the length of the quest. The easiest way to do that would be to make the optionals actually meaningful. This way those that just want to rush it for completion can do so, and those that want to do all the optionals are rewarded for their time. They could have made part 2 give a decent chunk of experience finishing it, but made the other 3 nodes give a much larger chunk of optional exp not just some arbitrary "545exp" or something where it's not worth you time.

Personally I hope they offer both in the future like Haunted Halls. There is room for both.

[Hafeal]

I am not a huge fan of old ToEE and don't mind the changes. I think for DDO, having content that is not getting run and taking the time to make it more enticing is good.


I wish they had taken some extra time for feedback and done more ... reminds me of my thoughts from 7 years ago ...


https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459512-Reflections-on-Epic-ToEE?highlight=ToEE

(https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459512-Reflections-on-Epic-ToEE?highlight=ToEE)

[Oxarhamar]

I don't think that's the point he's making. Literally no quest that was a former pnp adventure requires planning in video game format, I believe he was meaning the grandness of it. The old TOEE was bloated, but not in a bad way. If you wanted to rush through you could, but you could also take your time and explore the temple. Even though the full quest was long, you could rush it and ignore everything else, or you could work on slayer kills, or farm named chests without even finishing the quest, etc.. Part 2 was no different. It was an extremely long quest if someone wanted to actually complete everything, but it also could be rushed by doing only the 1 required elemental node.

Now we are forced into doing everything basically, and breaking it into multiple quests makes it feel like a bunch of separate quests instead of one cohesive story that you could choose to interact with as much or as little as you liked. Yes TOEE in pnp format took an entire summer, but that's because a normal combat scenario takes 15-30 mins in pnp, whereas it takes like 15 seconds in game. Of course it feel shorter. The entire point to why TOEE was supposed to be revamped is to make it shorter... but in reality they extended the length by forcing you to do everything now.

In reality, the simplest change would have been to leave the quest as is, increase the exp to match the length of the quest. The easiest way to do that would be to make the optionals actually meaningful. This way those that just want to rush it for completion can do so, and those that want to do all the optionals are rewarded for their time. They could have made part 2 give a decent chunk of experience finishing it, but made the other 3 nodes give a much larger chunk of optional exp not just some arbitrary "545exp" or something where it's not worth you time.

Personally I hope they offer both in the future like Haunted Halls. There is room for both.

I don’t think that breaking it down makes the story less cohesive it feels more like any other DDO chain now multiple quests with a story throughout

[SoVeryBelgian]

If I could restructure ToEE

Quest 1 - Part 1 (Old).

Quest 2, 3, 4, 5 - Elemental Nodes (Expand on these).

Quest 6 - VS Zuggtmoy.


I wasn't a fan of the elemental node search. And the respawning mooks. It was always hard finding a group for it. I feel the maps need a lift too.