Update 56 Preview 3: Dark Apostate Archetype

[Lynnabel]

Howdy all! Please be sure to check out both the Producer's Letter (https://www.ddo.com/news/ddo-producers-letter-august-2022) and the Archetype Overview page (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533846-Update-56-Preview-3-Archetype-Overview?p=6535514#post6535514) before diving in here :)

Dark Apostate is a Cleric Archetype.

Spells/Feats/Class Features

Instead of automatically preparing Cure Wounds spells, Dark Apostates automatically prepare the Inflict Wounds spells.

Past Life: Dark Apostate: +5 Negative Healing Amplification and +5 Negative Spell Power (stacks 3 times)

New Tree: Dark Apostate
Replaces Radiant Servant

Themes: Dark healing, evil magic, negative damage, undead control and destruction

Summary: Shroud yourself in shadow as a master of darkness and negative energy magic.

Tree:

Core 1: Dark Apostate Each core in this tree including this one grants you +5 Negative and Alignment Spellpower and +5 Negative Healing Amplification.
Core 3: Shadow Shrouding: Toggle: Shroud yourself in Necromantic Energies and assume the form of a Shadow. While in Shadow form, you are considered an Undead, gain a base 100% Fortification, and may heal from Negative Energies. This healing comes at a cost - Undead naturally only take 50% healing from Positive Energy and take 100% more damage from Light. You gain +2 Wisdom and +2 Constitution, as well as +5% Incorporeality and Concealment as your form is partially obscured and intangible. This is a Major Form.
Core 6: Enhanced Shadowform I: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 10% each). Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
Core 12: Enhanced Shadowform II: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 15% each). Your Bestow Curse, Doom, and Bane spells no longer have a saving throw.
Core 18: Enhanced Shadowform III: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 20% each). You also passively gain +1 Necromancy DC, and your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
Core 20: Master of Shadows: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 25% each). You also passively gain +4 Wisdom, and your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.



Tier 1:


SLA: Bane
Apostate's Skills: +1/2/3 Heal, Hide, and Bluff. Rank 3: +1 Will saving throw
Shadowy Bulwark: +5/10/15 HP
Apostate's Curse: Toggle: Your Favored Weapons channel the dark energies within you, twisting them into evil versions of themselves - they deal an additional 1d6 Evil Damage on hit (scaling with 100% spellpower).
Traditionalist Caster: +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power when wielding an Orb or Staff.



Tier 2:


SLA: Prayer
Mighty Turning: When you successfully Turn Undead, the Undead are now destroyed.
Enhanced Turning: +2/4/6 Turn Undead charges.
Enhanced Curse I: (req Apostate's Curse) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice, and grants your Favored Weapons Ghost Touch.
Dark Rewards: When you critically hit with a Negative or Alignment spell, you gain 3/6/10 Sacred Temporary SP that last for 1 minute.



Tier 3:


Pray for Mercy: Your Prayer-like spells (Bless, Bane, Prayer) now resonate with Evil energies, dealing 1d6 Evil damage per Caster Level to all enemies. This damage is doubled against enemies that are Cursed.
Endless Turning: Turn Undead uses regenerate at a rate of one every 120 seconds, or 10%/20%/30% faster if it already regenerates.
Cursed Words: SLA for Bestow Curse. This costs 0 Spellpoints to activate. Bestow Curse now deals 6d6 Bane damage to Undead per Dark Apostate Dice.
Enhanced Curse II: (req Enhanced Curse I) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice. Favored Weapons are now an Implement in your hands.
+1 Wisdom



Tier 4:


Blessings of the Shadows: You gain +50/100/150 Incapacitation Range
Return to Dusk: While you are in any Undead form, when you are knocked unconscious, you dissolve into shadows, granting you Invisibility and Displacement. After 5 seconds, your body reforms, and you are healed for 1d6 Negative Energy per Character Level. This may only happen once every 3 minutes.
Dark Judgement: When you use Turn Undead, you and allies near you gain +3/6/10 Temporary HP per Apostate's Curse bonus dice.
Enhanced Curse III: (req Enhanced Curse II) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
+1 Wisdom



Tier 5:


Benediction: Harm now scales with 2x Spellpower and may now kill enemies.
Ward of Shadow: Wards all nearby allies against all four alignments and light. This is Protection from Elements but for Law, Chaos, Evil, Good, and Light damage.
Necromantic Devotion: +1 DCs with Necromancy spells.
Ultimate Heresy: (req Enhanced Curse III) Your Apostate's Curse gains 2 additional damage dice. On crit, you apply 1d3 stacks of Vulnerability and apply the effects of the Curse spell.
Shadows of Death: You gain +5% Negative and Alignment Spell Critical Chance


Note that this tree releases alongside the revamped Divine Disciple tree, see below!

Bugs fixed since last Lamannia:

inflict mass spells may now heal the caster (for real this time)
Harm works with Benediction
dark apostate cores now buff the shadowform properly
protection from alignment effects now have better icons and descriptions
Dark Apostate now has its proper icons
Return to Dusk no longer damages you if you are not Undead
harm now benefits from empower heal metamagic
SLAs no longer share cooldowns with the base spell
Dark Apostate dice are now in the Epic Elemental Dice feat

[Lynnabel]

This tree has very strange core abilities. It will not make sense unless you look at it in-game.

Core A: Multiselector:

Emissary of Light: Req Cleric 1, antireq Emissary of Darkness: You have chosen Light as your path. For each Core Ability you take in this tree, you gain +5 Light and +5 Universal Spellpower.
Emissary of Darkness: Req Cleric 1, antireq Emissary of Light: You have chosen Darkness as your path. For each Core Ability you take in this tree, you gain +5 Negative and +5 Universal spellpower.


Core B: Multiselector:

Aspect of the Sun: Req Cleric 3: You gain +2 to all Saving Throws and +3 PRR.
Empowered by the Darkness: Req Cleric 3: You gain +2 to all Saving Throws and +3 MRR.


Core C: Multiselector:

Light Spellbook I: Req Cleric 6: Your Cleric spellbook gains Sunbolt as a Level 3 spell.
Dark Spellbook I: Req Cleric 6: Your Cleric spellbook gains Enervation as a Level 3 spell.


Core D: Multiselector:

Light Spellbook II: Req Cleric 12: Your Cleric spellbook gains Sunbeam as a Level 6 spell.
Dark Spellbook II: Req Cleric 12: Your Cleric spellbook gains Necrotic Ray as a Level 6 spell.


Core E: Multiselector:

Light Spellbook III: Req Cleric 18: Your Cleric spellbook gains Sunburst as a Level 8 spell. You gain +1 caster level and max caster level with Light/Alignment spells.
Dark Spellbook III: Req Cleric 18: Your Cleric spellbook gains Power Word: Stun as a Level 8 spell. You gain +1 caster level and max caster level with Negative Energy spells.


Core F: Multiselector:

Priest of Endless Light: Req Cleric 20 and Emissary of Light: Your mastery over Light has granted you impossible power. +4 Wisdom, +2 to all Saving Throws, and +10 Light/Alignment spellpower and positive healing amp. You gain +1 caster level and max caster level with Light/Alignment spells and +1 evocation DCs.
Deacon of Endless Darkness: Req Cleric 20 and Emissary of Darkness: Your mastery over Darkness has granted you impossible power. +4 Wisdom, +2 to all Saving Throws, and +10 Negative spellpower and negative healing amp. You gain +1 caster level and max caster level with Negative Energy spells and +1 necromancy DCs.


Tier 1:


Nimbus of Light vs Inflict Light Wounds SLA
Defense of the Heart: +2/4/6 PRR
Multiselector:

Divine Smiting I: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
Domain Smiting 1: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1) (yes, both light and dark cores... this tree is funky fresh)

Defense of the Soul: +2/4/6 MRR
Spell Points: +30/60/100 Maximum Spell Points


Tier 2:


Spell Penetration: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration
Improved Metamagic: Empower/Enlarge/Maximize/Quicken
Multiselector:

Divine Smiting II: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
Domain Smiting II: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1)

Shield of Dusk and Dawn: When struck, attackers are dealt 1/2/3d6 Light and Negative damage, scaling with your spellpower. Rank 3: When enemies critically hit you, they are Blinded for 2 seconds with no save.
Light and Dark: Whenever you cast a Light, Alignment or Negative spell, you gain +3 to your Negative, Light, and Alignment Spell Power for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 3/6/10 times.


Tier 3:


Necrotic Bolt vs Searing Light
Improved Metamagic: Empower/Enlarge/Maximize/Quicken
Multiselector:

Divine Smiting III: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
Domain Smiting III: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1)

Multiselector:

Disciple of Dusk: You gain +5/10/15 Negative Healing Amplification. Rank 3: +5 Negative Spellpower
Disciple of Dawn: You gain +5/10/15 Positive Healing Amplification. Rank 3: +5 Light and Alignment Spellpower

+1 Wisdom


Tier 4:


Order's Wrath vs Holy Smite vs Chaos Hammer vs Unholy Blight SLA
Improved Metamagic: Heighten
Multiselector:

Divine Smiting IV: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
Domain Smiting IV: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1)

Multiselector: (select what you did not select in Tier 3)

Disciple of Dusk: You gain +5/10/15 Negative Healing Amplification. Rank 3: +5 Negative Spellpower
Disciple of Dawn: You gain +5/10/15 Positive Healing Amplification. Rank 3: +5 Light and Alignment Spellpower

+1 Wisdom


Tier 5:


Multiselector:

Holy Power (req only Light cores): Your Holy Smite spell now deals full damage to all enemies, regardless of alignment.
Unholy Power (req only Dark cores): Your Unholy Blight spell now deals full damage to all enemies, regardless of alignment.
Balance of Power (req both Light and Dark cores): Your Chaos Hammer and Order's Wrath spells now deal full damage to all enemies, regardless of alignment.

Multiselector:

Transcend Light: Req having only Emissary of Light cores. You now gain the Spellbook spells of the Path of Darkness.
Transcend Darkness: Req having only Emissary of Darkness cores: You now gain the Spellbook spells of the Path of Light.
Bring Balance: req having both Light and Dark cores: The Word of Balance spell is added to your Spellbook at level 7. (yes, both light and dark cores... this tree is funky fresh)

Multiselector:

Divine Smiting V: +2% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Chance
Domain Smiting V: +2% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Chance (requires both Light and Dark Core 1)

Multiselector:

Condemnation: +5% Light, Negative, and Alignment Spell Critical Damage
Acceptance: +5% Fire, Cold, Acid, Electric, and Force Spell Critical Damage, +2 Caster level and Max Caster Level with those spell elements[/COLOR]

Divine Empowerment: +1 DCs with Evocation and Necromancy spells


Bugfixes since last Lamannia:

Fixed a variety of prereq and minimum level issues
Inflict Light Wounds SLA now has a proper spell point cost and cooldown

[Archfae]

A bit disappointed that this is how the tree still looks at preview 3. I don't know how much room there is for changes because usually you guys dont do a preview 4.

But I'm fairly certain that all my feedback from playing and testing on preview 2 is mostly relevant. Sure the healing is fixed, but ultimately this tree still lacks identity.

* The dark apostate dice are still meaningless to casters because they only deal damage to undead for us. If I'm fighting undead, I've got other spells and resources than to use a single target curse spell.
* The capstone and T5s are still super underwhelmingly.
* I still see no reason to use shadow form, even if it looks aesthetically awesome. Clerics already can heal themselves, so undead form is actually a nerf rather than a buff by itself. Sure +2 wisdom, incorp/concealment that's likely nonstacking, is not enough justification for going neg spec healing rather than positive - this is especially true when in any raid environment your role is going to be a healer due to no meaningful boss dps, tanking ability, or other boss interactions. Also keep in mind that shadow form precludes taking another form ability (e.g. aasimar hp).
* When thinking about this tree's identity, dark priest screams out to me that it'd be something debuff oriented, evil oriented, or death oriented. Yet there's very little here for death spells. Very little here for evil casters (still have the weird situation where holy smite is best spell to use alignment wise even on a dark priest character). And while there's some good initial start to debuffs, there's no follow through. Both flavor wise and power wise it's still significantly underserving what it needs to.

My plea is once again to go the debuff route because it's almost there, and it would require probably the least amount of changes to make into a functional and flavorful tree. It's also one of the niches ddo just kinda lacks - usually the "debuff" trees have 1-2 debuffs that are worthwhile and then a pile of other things that make them good dps where the debuffs come second (e.g. shintao, soul eater, etc.). Tying some really unique and cool debuff abilities with the right power budget into the capstone and a t5 that require shadow form, would be the way I'd go personally. Something to give a debuff to trash in aoe - i still like something that turns bestow curse into an aoe spell of some sort. Something to give a debuff or set of debuffs to a boss would be great as well.

Ill definitely log on and try this version of the class again, but I really dont think the few bug fixes are going to change the applicability of the feedback above that's based on lamm round 2.

[lain5246]

Howdy all! Please be sure to check out both the Producer's Letter (https://www.ddo.com/news/ddo-producers-letter-august-2022) and the Archetype Overview page (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533846-Update-56-Preview-3-Archetype-Overview?p=6535514#post6535514) before diving in here :)

Dark Apostate is a Cleric Archetype.

Spells/Feats/Class Features

Instead of automatically preparing Cure Wounds spells, Dark Apostates automatically prepare the Inflict Wounds spells.

Past Life: Dark Apostate: +5 Negative Healing Amplification and +5 Negative Spell Power (stacks 3 times)

New Tree: Dark Apostate
Replaces Radiant Servant

Themes: Dark healing, evil magic, negative damage, undead control and destruction

Summary: Shroud yourself in shadow as a master of darkness and negative energy magic.

Tree:

Core 1: Dark Apostate Each core in this tree including this one grants you +5 Negative and Alignment Spellpower and +5 Negative Healing Amplification.
Core 3: Shadow Shrouding: Toggle: Shroud yourself in Necromantic Energies and assume the form of a Shadow. While in Shadow form, you are considered an Undead, gain a base 100% Fortification, and may heal from Negative Energies. This healing comes at a cost - Undead naturally only take 50% healing from Positive Energy and take 100% more damage from Light. You gain +2 Wisdom and +2 Constitution, as well as +5% Incorporeality and Concealment as your form is partially obscured and intangible. This is a Major Form.
Core 6: Enhanced Shadowform I: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 10% each). Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
Core 12: Enhanced Shadowform II: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 15% each). Your Bestow Curse, Doom, and Bane spells no longer have a saving throw.
Core 18: Enhanced Shadowform III: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 20% each). You also passively gain +1 Necromancy DC, and your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
Core 20: Master of Shadows: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 25% each). You also passively gain +4 Wisdom, and your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.



Tier 1:


SLA: Bane
Apostate's Skills: +1/2/3 Heal, Hide, and Bluff. Rank 3: +1 Will saving throw
Shadowy Bulwark: +5/10/15 HP
Apostate's Curse: Toggle: Your Favored Weapons channel the dark energies within you, twisting them into evil versions of themselves - they deal an additional 1d6 Evil Damage on hit (scaling with 100% spellpower).
Traditionalist Caster: +3/6/10 Universal Spell Power when wielding an Orb or Staff.



Tier 2:


SLA: Prayer
Mighty Turning: When you successfully Turn Undead, the Undead are now destroyed.
Enhanced Turning: +2/4/6 Turn Undead charges.
Enhanced Curse I: (req Apostate's Curse) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice, and grants your Favored Weapons Ghost Touch.
Dark Rewards: When you critically hit with a Negative or Alignment spell, you gain 3/6/10 Sacred Temporary SP that last for 1 minute.



Tier 3:


Pray for Mercy: Your Prayer-like spells (Bless, Bane, Prayer) now resonate with Evil energies, dealing 1d6 Evil damage per Caster Level to all enemies. This damage is doubled against enemies that are Cursed.
Endless Turning: Turn Undead uses regenerate at a rate of one every 120 seconds, or 10%/20%/30% faster if it already regenerates.
Cursed Words: SLA for Bestow Curse. This costs 0 Spellpoints to activate. Bestow Curse now deals 6d6 Bane damage to Undead per Dark Apostate Dice.
Enhanced Curse II: (req Enhanced Curse I) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice. Favored Weapons are now an Implement in your hands.
+1 Wisdom



Tier 4:


Blessings of the Shadows: You gain +50/100/150 Incapacitation Range
Return to Dusk: While you are in any Undead form, when you are knocked unconscious, you dissolve into shadows, granting you Invisibility and Displacement. After 5 seconds, your body reforms, and you are healed for 1d6 Negative Energy per Character Level. This may only happen once every 3 minutes.
Dark Judgement: When you use Turn Undead, you and allies near you gain +3/6/10 Temporary HP per Apostate's Curse bonus dice.
Enhanced Curse III: (req Enhanced Curse II) Your Apostate's Curse gains 1 additional damage dice.
+1 Wisdom



Tier 5:


Benediction: Harm now scales with 2x Spellpower and may now kill enemies.
Ward of Shadow: Wards all nearby allies against all four alignments and light. This is Protection from Elements but for Law, Chaos, Evil, Good, and Light damage.
Necromantic Devotion: +1 DCs with Necromancy spells.
Ultimate Heresy: (req Enhanced Curse III) Your Apostate's Curse gains 2 additional damage dice. On crit, you apply 1d3 stacks of Vulnerability and apply the effects of the Curse spell.
Shadows of Death: You gain +5% Negative and Alignment Spell Critical Chance


Note that this tree releases alongside the revamped Divine Disciple tree, see below!

Bugs fixed since last Lamannia:

inflict mass spells may now heal the caster (for real this time)
Harm works with Benediction
dark apostate cores now buff the shadowform properly
protection from alignment effects now have better icons and descriptions
Dark Apostate now has its proper icons
Return to Dusk no longer damages you if you are not Undead
harm now benefits from empower heal metamagic
SLAs no longer share cooldowns with the base spell
Dark Apostate dice are now in the Epic Elemental Dice feat



I am sad there is no aura to heal with necro energy like the healing aura from radiant servant, it would fit flavor wise.

[voxson5]

Themes: Dark healing, evil magic, negative damage, undead control and destruction.

Why doesn't dark apostate's turn undead charm/enslave them?

[Nugaot]

A bit disappointed that this is how the tree still looks at preview 3. I don't know how much room there is for changes because usually you guys dont do a preview 4.

But I'm fairly certain that all my feedback from playing and testing on preview 2 is mostly relevant. Sure the healing is fixed, but ultimately this tree still lacks identity.

* The dark apostate dice are still meaningless to casters because they only deal damage to undead for us. If I'm fighting undead, I've got other spells and resources than to use a single target curse spell.
* The capstone and T5s are still super underwhelmingly.
* I still see no reason to use shadow form, even if it looks aesthetically awesome. Clerics already can heal themselves, so undead form is actually a nerf rather than a buff by itself. Sure +2 wisdom, incorp/concealment that's likely nonstacking, is not enough justification for going neg spec healing rather than positive - this is especially true when in any raid environment your role is going to be a healer due to no meaningful boss dps, tanking ability, or other boss interactions. Also keep in mind that shadow form precludes taking another form ability (e.g. aasimar hp).
* When thinking about this tree's identity, dark priest screams out to me that it'd be something debuff oriented, evil oriented, or death oriented. Yet there's very little here for death spells. Very little here for evil casters (still have the weird situation where holy smite is best spell to use alignment wise even on a dark priest character). And while there's some good initial start to debuffs, there's no follow through. Both flavor wise and power wise it's still significantly underserving what it needs to.

My plea is once again to go the debuff route because it's almost there, and it would require probably the least amount of changes to make into a functional and flavorful tree. It's also one of the niches ddo just kinda lacks - usually the "debuff" trees have 1-2 debuffs that are worthwhile and then a pile of other things that make them good dps where the debuffs come second (e.g. shintao, soul eater, etc.). Tying some really unique and cool debuff abilities with the right power budget into the capstone and a t5 that require shadow form, would be the way I'd go personally. Something to give a debuff to trash in aoe - i still like something that turns bestow curse into an aoe spell of some sort. Something to give a debuff or set of debuffs to a boss would be great as well.

Ill definitely log on and try this version of the class again, but I really dont think the few bug fixes are going to change the applicability of the feedback above that's based on lamm round 2.

I have to agree.

I hate to say it, because I absolutely love the idea of an undead cleric, and the dark apostate was the archetype I had the most hope for. I've been playing caster cleric for a couple months, and it's taken me so long because of how boring I find it to play compared to fvs. After transferring my character to Lam and rebuilding it with the new DD tree, I'm even worse off. I did a LR into Dark Apostate and didn't find it was any better either. At least I have motivation to get to 20 and TR quickly now!

I was sad to see that your revamp of warpriest in the first thread was shouted down so quickly, WP could use another look over, and the idea of making it more of a hybrid tree was great. Melee clerics should be more than just crappy paladins.

Cleric badly needs some help, and though I love to see the mission statement of archetypes is in creating space to do another pass over some older trees, this one is really missing the mark. Sacred Fist and Stormsinger are great as is, but I think the Dark Apostate and the Cleric overall deserve some more time and could wait until the next update or batch of archetypes.

[Drinkfist]

What Alignment will a Dark Apostate be starting as or Restricted to? Would you allow this Archetype to actually be Evil Aligned?

[droid327]

Yeah at this point its clear you have no intention of making any changes to make this tree interesting or useful, sorry to say...I wont repeat the feedback I've already given because the problems I talked about before went totally unaddressed

I'll just add one more: 6d6 Bane damage per Curse die to a single target is not that impressive. That's, what, 48d6 damage at L20 for a pure Apostate? 48*3.5=168...so basically a Harm. Except its Bane damage, so it scales on Force spellpower, which an Apostate isnt going to have much of. And since Bestow Curse is not a damage spell and thus doesnt take Max/Emp/Intens, that's another 225 missing spellpower over other damage spells

Long story short: the tree doesnt do anything that would make a Cleric want to be one, it defines no unique playstyle that scales well enough to be viable

[Xgya]

Can we get the Bane damage from Curses on all targets?

It seems this tree is a Warpriest wannabe, a LOT of the stuff is about fighting with sharp metal sticks in the name of the Host.

The tree as it stands doesn't seem to know what it wants to be.

The archetype is OBVIOUSLY meant to be a negative-energy-focused caster, but as it stands, it looks slightly less attractive to a caster than Arcane Archer.


Using all that tree's abilities to its fullest feels like I'm an undead-form Eldritch Knight, only with less magical support and less melee support. About the same negative amplification, and about the same levels of resiliency.

9d6 (31.5) Evil damage vs 7d12 (45.5) elemental, and that's entirely ignoring that one tree gets extra doublestrike while the other doesn't.
Comparing to Arcane Archer makes it look slightly less disfavorable (9d8 elemental damage)


Frankly, I'd rather entirely remove the Curse Die or make those a magical attack.
Tie it ALL to Bestow Curse, allow it at level 1 (it's not THAT powerful a spell where DDO is concerned), and make it deal a small amount of scaleable damage over time which the curse die would be.
Make the higher up SLA be a Mass Bestow Curse. It's unique, extra-evil things we can now do to the bad guys that's actually spellcasting-related!

Give a buff spell a la Crown of Summer you can give to your friendly Fighter friend that makes THEIR crits (or yours, if you can self-target) apply Bestow Curse and all the goodies you can have those curses channel. Now you're bribing minions instead of stepping on the Palemaster's toes and making your own. All in the name of goodness and totally-not-evil.

[ShadowFlash]

So Bestow Curse is no longer an AOE tied to Turn Uses. Just awful.
Prayer SLA Damage can't be Meta Magic'd and instead of Negative damage... evil = alignment = LIGHT!!! But at least it gave an excuse to nerf Prayer Cooldown for Everyone.
In fact
It's completely a Melee Tree now, and gives nothing to use your Turn's on.
Yet....
In DD, 15 points of Negative Spellpower is tied to Negative Healing Amp supposedly encouraging some kind of synergy to using DD' Shadow Form, AND we lose Necrotic Energy Burst which WOULD have synergized.

I was willing to look at the cursing aspect, but going high in the Shifter tree is just plain better. Howl AOE... superior, And can still use "normal" Prayer/bane/bestow/etc, making it better at debuffing than DA! Grab Lesser Displacement without the penalties of being undead, plus picking up 6% dodge along the way, AND an AOE CC.... I mean it's not even close!

Please fix the Neg spellpower tied to Neg Healing Amp in DD at least so casters are not penalized for ignoring this DA abomination.

[Xezom]

A bit disappointed that this is how the tree still looks at preview 3. I don't know how much room there is for changes because usually you guys dont do a preview 4.

But I'm fairly certain that all my feedback from playing and testing on preview 2 is mostly relevant. Sure the healing is fixed, but ultimately this tree still lacks identity.

* The dark apostate dice are still meaningless to casters because they only deal damage to undead for us. If I'm fighting undead, I've got other spells and resources than to use a single target curse spell.
* The capstone and T5s are still super underwhelmingly.
* I still see no reason to use shadow form, even if it looks aesthetically awesome. Clerics already can heal themselves, so undead form is actually a nerf rather than a buff by itself. Sure +2 wisdom, incorp/concealment that's likely nonstacking, is not enough justification for going neg spec healing rather than positive - this is especially true when in any raid environment your role is going to be a healer due to no meaningful boss dps, tanking ability, or other boss interactions. Also keep in mind that shadow form precludes taking another form ability (e.g. aasimar hp).
* When thinking about this tree's identity, dark priest screams out to me that it'd be something debuff oriented, evil oriented, or death oriented. Yet there's very little here for death spells. Very little here for evil casters (still have the weird situation where holy smite is best spell to use alignment wise even on a dark priest character). And while there's some good initial start to debuffs, there's no follow through. Both flavor wise and power wise it's still significantly underserving what it needs to.

My plea is once again to go the debuff route because it's almost there, and it would require probably the least amount of changes to make into a functional and flavorful tree. It's also one of the niches ddo just kinda lacks - usually the "debuff" trees have 1-2 debuffs that are worthwhile and then a pile of other things that make them good dps where the debuffs come second (e.g. shintao, soul eater, etc.). Tying some really unique and cool debuff abilities with the right power budget into the capstone and a t5 that require shadow form, would be the way I'd go personally. Something to give a debuff to trash in aoe - i still like something that turns bestow curse into an aoe spell of some sort. Something to give a debuff or set of debuffs to a boss would be great as well.

Ill definitely log on and try this version of the class again, but I really dont think the few bug fixes are going to change the applicability of the feedback above that's based on lamm round 2.


Yeah at this point its clear you have no intention of making any changes to make this tree interesting or useful, sorry to say...I wont repeat the feedback I've already given because the problems I talked about before went totally unaddressed

I'll just add one more: 6d6 Bane damage per Curse die to a single target is not that impressive. That's, what, 48d6 damage at L20 for a pure Apostate? 48*3.5=168...so basically a Harm. Except its Bane damage, so it scales on Force spellpower, which an Apostate isnt going to have much of. And since Bestow Curse is not a damage spell and thus doesnt take Max/Emp/Intens, that's another 225 missing spellpower over other damage spells

Long story short: the tree doesnt do anything that would make a Cleric want to be one, it defines no unique playstyle that scales well enough to be viable




I'll third this one. I'm a bit disappointed to see that none of the very solid and interesting suggestions that have been made to improve this trees identity with a dark caster (particularly those centered on sharpening it's identity as a debuffer) have made any impact on the development of the tree. I still feel like this tree lacks identity and Synergy with itself. Sure there are parts, but thats what it feels like still. A bunch of moshposh parts instead of a cohesive tree. This tree is a lot of little parts and ideas that add up to a lot of nothing meaningful in any department. I'll echo that I'm going to give this a solid try but I have low expectations that it feels much better than Preview 2. I know Preview 4's are very rare so i'm kinda losing hope that the tree will hit the mark of what so many of us are looking for before release, but i'm still hoping that some of the great ideas that have been posted here will sway you guys to give it that last little touch it needs to make it truly unique.

While Lynnabel did specify that since these are untyped bonuses for the Incorp/Conseal, Provided they function correctly, this tree has nice defense options but just doesn't feel right still. It definitely hit the lower offense higher defensive mark, but right now it is missing meaningful contribution to either a team or enough oomph to be a good solo character.

I'm also going to echo the request (as i mentioned in the previous preview when it was noted) to take off the Undead restriction on Cursed Words (Curse SLA). Clerics have good means of dealing with undead, escpecially with Mighty Turning in this tree. This tree lacks oomph for sawing through most things. 6d6 evil damage per pact dice makes taking the DA Dice line in the tree very enticing until you read that it only works on Undead. I stick with my original feedback of: Remove the Restriction of only working on undead, and lower the per dice damage to compensate, if needed for the wider use (I argue that it is not just because you can't amp it up). Additionally, Change the damage to Evil damage instead of Bane, for scaling and cohesion reasons. Curse is still a Single Target SLA that is NOT impacted by Max/Emp, so the damage is not going to be amazing even if you allow it to be used on everything. Allowing it to damage all enemies would also give this tree an option to do thematic damage (Evil) vs relying on the DD light spells which are currently some of the best to use as a DA simply cause Negative has TONS of resistance/immunity and none of the Cleric tree have bypass (Which is fine cause Clerics are one of the BEST for handling undead naturally by virtue of their spell books and Turning).

Finally, I am really really really begging that the T5's get adjusted. I know that there is this push to make this tree a mock-necromancer, but lets face it, the rest of the tree simply does not follow that route. At least please consider changing Benediction to something that supports the Debuffing fantasy that the early tree is trying to sell. Even if it's an upgrade to Cursed Words that makes it work on everything or making Curse an AoE spell, or adding some Unique Debuffing Ability... something... anything to throw the Debuffing fantasy of a Hex Priest a bone.

I'll also echo that Stormsinger and Sacred Fist are in pretty good spots. They have a cohesive feel and play and a very clear identity that is still uniquely their own. That's why I have no feedback on them even though I'm a Bard main. The other two Archtype, to me, seem finished and ready to go. I would like to see the DA taken back to the drawing board and polished up rather than seeing it release in it's current state.

[ShadowFlash]

Does "Apostate's Curse" Melee strike actually apply a "curse" effect? Kinda one of those little things that would help the weak sauce damage of "Prayer for Mercy" double damage against cursed. I mean... it has Curse in the name and all...

[LittleLexi]

I don't know why a Dark Apostate would want to Destroy Undead...when they can use them :cool: Like if their Turning had a Control Undead effect instead.

Then, being able to drain or sacrifice these undead for spell power, HP, SP etc. would be totally on theme. And it'll allow Radiant Servants to shine at what they do.

Still don't know why Ward of Shadow is in this tree, or in tier 5, for that matter. But doesn't look like it's changing eh? Getting Radiant Servant rework flashbacks...

--------------------------------------------

Divine Disciple is a whole lot of numbers and not enough fun/flavor.

[Seph1roth5]

Just took dark apostate for a spin in the new ToEE, and can safely say it's, for the most part, junk. Like people have already mentioned, the damage from spells is un-meta-able so it's extremely weak.

The DA dice are also meh. AGAIN, like many people mentioned, this tree is half trying to be for melee and half trying to be spellcasting, which means it's wasting your time and points.

There's so much potential in here for something new and fun, but it seems like there's a small checklist of things the devs want this class to be and do and there's nothing that's ever going to change that. They might shuffle around other stuff but the checklist is the main issue here.

You want this to be a melee-focused tree? Lean into it. Ditch all the spellpower/crit passives and slas and give it more stuff to do in melee.

You want it to be cursetastic? Lean into THAT, make up a few new curses, bonuses vs cursed enemies, etc. Ditch the melee stuff.

Want a weird mix like eldritch knight? Play eldritch knight.

Quick notes about specifics:

Mighty Turning - turning blows as is, and needs a TON of gear and work to get more than 1-2 monsters in legendaries.
Ward of Shadow - incredibly weak, protecting vs 120 damage even at lv 12 is just...pathetic. Make this into an energy resistance that works vs alignment damage (and applies all 4 kinds).

[Xezom]

Does "Apostate's Curse" Melee strike actually apply a "curse" effect? Kinda one of those little things that would help the weak sauce damage of "Prayer for Mercy" double damage against cursed. I mean... it has Curse in the name and all...

In game, the Ultimate Heresy point does not even have the Curse on crit that's noted in the patch notes. It didn't last patch either but somehow still made it into the patch notes for this preview. It happens with everything that gets shifted there's bound to be things lost in the shuffle. I'm not sure if it's supposed to be in game or the patch notes are just a relic from the first preview. But either way.


So I've now tried this tree on this Preview and what I feared was going to happen is still the case. This tree is still far too underwhelming in every department to be considered viable/unique. Your best options for spells are to use almost ANY light scaling SLA you can get from anywhere else and it's going to do better than your Prayer For Mercy. I know this is because of the metamagic vs no metamagic issue. I would have far less of a problem with this is the tree did something meaningful later, but it just simply isn't the case, as a caster that is. It has some decent defensive options and a relatively deceptive amount of survivability due to the Incorp/Conseal stacking mechanics (especially if you take perma Blur/ lesser displacement items), Extended unconscious range, and free once per 3 minute self stabilize/heal buff. So here's my final thoughts and feedback since I'm going to guess this is the final Preview before this is launched.

From what I've found there are about 3 Total Methods with the DA as a caster:

Similarities with all the builds I've tried so far:

- You will HARD struggle early levels as a Pure DA. Period. No matter what route you go. Until you hit level 5 for your first Domain SLA and/or T3 for Pray for mercy you have no damage as a pure DA whatsoever. Even with Pray For Mercy the damage is still pretty negligible as a pure DA, but you at least have something.
- The majority of your firepower will come from other sources NOT found in the DA tree. On this note: if enemies aren't cursed your Prayer for Mercy goes from doing little damage to doing laughably insignificant damage. Most SLA's I've tested do more damage ON A SAVE than Pray for Mercy does on a Cursed enemy (double damage). DA is not in any fashion SP effective for DPS on it's own.
- You will find yourself trying to figure out what feats to take if running Pure/dedicated DA because the typical Caster Meta-Magics have VERY limited use. Heighten/Enlarge are the two most globally usable for all DA casters. Max/Emp depends what route you're taking but are completely useless for Pure DA (save for your Domain spells).

Some Style, Same Outcome:

1) For Pure DA: You're mostly going to be focused on Insta-kills. Yeah I know not what the tree looks like either, but just follow me. Take death domain. Not because you're going to be a Pale Master but simply because you get Destruction as a SLA and Necro Boosts. Heighten/Enlarge Manditory, Empower/Maximize Recommended. As you level, Spam Necrotic ray. Use bane and curse to drop enemies saves if needed to make sure it lands. Once you are level 14, Spam Curse SLA and Destruction SLA. Throw some Necrotic Rays if you need to wait on Destruction CD but otherwise you're mainly going to focus on it. For Undead there are a couple options, Pick up the Mighty Turning and Enhanced Turning points in this tree if you want but far from mandatory and arguable whether or not even worth. Death Domain will help with your turning check to just destroy them, but your default spell book still has better options for dealing with undead than simply relying on turning (Undeath to Death being a Necro spell works decently later, and any light spell like Searing light works early). Curse Undead to get the chip damage from Cursed words, but as undead get stronger and you get higher level it will become less and less effective at taking them down by itself simply cause it's tied to a fixed amount of DA dice. Ironically it's one of the MOST useful damaging points in the entire tree. But more on that in my feedback section. And That's about it. What you take in the tree other than The Curse/Bane SLA, Necro DC, and defensive points is all Fluff/filler/taste and really don't have a large effect on them playstyle. For T5's, Necromatic devotion is the only mandatory to take. Ultimate Heresy is okay for topping off your DA dice for Cursed words if you really want it. Every other T5 is junk. Shadows of Death can be okay if you also opt to take Dark rewards for some occasional temp SP but by the time you can stack a lot of crit, you're going to mostly be spamming Destruction/using destiny points.

Undead form: Optional. Personally, I don't recommend it unless you take Return to Dusk, which is a very nice and strong ability. Does it compensate for the Pos Healing penalty and clunky negative self healing? I'll let you decide that, because I could argue either way.

2) The More likely build: This is most likely going to be the more used method as it's not relying on DC casting and insta-kills, but in my opinion is also further from what a Dark Apostate should be than the first (and I don't feel like the first does a great job at delivering on the Dark Apostle fantasy, so....). For this Set up, take Sun Domain. Additionally, take all of the Divine Disciple SLA's up to Holy Smite. Once you've gotten that far, you can start taking points in the DA tree. Sadly, the majority of the points you will take in this tree will be the defensive ones. The Prayer for Mercy/Undead slying abilities are simply no comparison to fully maximized and empowered damaging light SLAs. In fact, I would go so far as to say don't even bother taking the T5 in DA. Take it in DD instead. Nothing the T5 DA is going to be efficient enough to justify taking it as a caster no matter if you take light or negative DD SLA's. We all know the weakness of focusing on pure negative power which is why I say only go light here and splash DA for defensive options and some of the utility points like Sp on crit.

3) The Alternate Negative DA: basically you do the exact same thing you would do in the Pure DA set up as I've stated with all the Domains/Metas/etc, but instead take all the Negative SLA's in the DD Tree up to Necrotic Bolt, but again if you are wanting to focus DA you're late game is going to be mostly spamming Destruction SLA + Curse SLA. This option simply gives you more spells to fill casting gaps.

Conclusion:

The DA is best used as a splash tree. Focusing the DA is not what I would recommend at all in it's current state. It is so close to being able to carve a niche as a debuffer, but it simply doesn't provide enough later game potential in that department to be viable. It also is NOT a DPS tree by itself as it's damage capacity is dismal at best. Undead form is arguable in it's usefulness as a mechanic on a cleric simply because positive healing is so efficient that taking the heal penalty and having to use the manual self target to self heal where a regular cleric can be targeting an enemy and just hit a pos healing spell, sorta makes self sustain feel clunky. I believe there are targetting options to address this, but it is something to note as it's the default behavior of the spells. I still feel like this tree is pulled in to many directions and doesn't accomplish any of them well. Look at it's description vs the other archetype descriptions and you can see that it's got too much to try to squash into one tree.

Stormsinger: Lightning and sonic damage, thunder, offensive spellcasting (Basically Electric and Cold or Electic and Sonic offense caster)
Sacred Fist: Punch paladin! Burn enemies with your sacred fists. (The most straight froward. Monk Paladin)
Dark Apostle: Dark healing, evil magic, negative damage, undead control and destruction (Negative self healing and Negative damage, Light/Alignment Evil Damage, and Undead management)

The other two trees have very specific and clearly lined out roles that they are designed to fill. The DA is trying to do 3-4 different things all at once, and the description doesn't even include on hit/weapon focus but you could argue that that mostly falls under evil damage even if it is more or less underwhelming.

Suggestions:

Long and Short of it is that this tree needs a shave and a haircut. Some of the theme cramming needs trimmed out to make room for a clearer and more defined style like the other Archetypes. Additionally, the specifics in the tree need a polish to make them feel like they are meaningful but a lot of that can be numeric adjustments that come with time, so i'm less concerned with that than I am about the tuning in of the play style.

1) T5's have got to be overhauled/revamped at least to some degree. I am still a firm advocate of changing the mostly useless Benediction point to one of the following: Poison SLA (With Max/Emp you get some huge constitution damage that on non-stat guard creatures often leads to helplessness), Mass Curse SLA, or some unique Debuff ability that ties with the Pray For Mercy to give the tree an identity as a debuffer while also make Pray for Mercy more useful since right now it lacks oomph. If not benediction, Ward of Shadow, but I don't see this ability being scrapped since it is a new ability only found in this tree and would result in "wasted" development time if it's scrapped. Personally, scrapping benediction is the most fitting place to go about making the change in T5 towards debuffer since, at least from my testing, it is an inconsequential point to the style of play that the DA uses. At the most, all benediction does is puts spellbook cast non-amped Harm up to a meh level for damage (still has the issue of being negative with no bypass and not an SLA so too expensive to amp) and Heal level for self healing. I don't feel that justifies it's place in this particular tree, especially as a T5 since DA has plenty of other options for self healing that are wholly sufficient and it's very unlikely you're going to run with enough other undead players to ever use Harm as a party/ally heal.

2) Cursed Words DA Dice scaling changed from only working on undead to all targets and changed to Evil rather than Bane. This would help with some firepower issues by adding more potential chip damage to all targets while also helping with scaling since Evil is light based and Bane is Force based (the only thing in this tree outside using Death Domain Destruction spam that is force based). Other parts of the tree are light/alignment focused so it seems more fitting to go that way.


Really that's it. I don't actually WANT this tree to be a full SLA slinging nuke tree. I really like the effects and the fact it uses some less used spells like Curse and Bane. The abilities look cool when they proc and so does the Shade Form. I also personally like that the tree is not a single cast and kill look on the surface, unfortunately as you get later it becomes more and more that because it relies on instakills or SLA's from other trees to stay even remotely relevant. I really truly love this theme on this character and love the look and feel, it just simply doesn't hit the mark for a standalone tree, especially when you consider that it's the namesake of the Dark Apostle subclass. It should be the main reason you play a Dark Apostle Archtype, but in it's current state I fear it's going to release and be the least efficient of the 3 Archtypes being released. I think lots of players will try it because the theme is cool, but will become frustrated like I and several others here have voiced, that it doesn't live up to expectations and lacks a cohesive style that matches its theme. I will speak for myself, but i know that there are many others here that feel the same why when I say, I'm pretty frustrated with the development of this tree. As someone else mentioned, it almost seems like there is a checklist of items that are being forced into this tree despite resounding feedback that they do not belong/feel right/need tweaked. For me the frustration comes not from the devs because I'm the first to say I love our devs and appreciate the work they do. It comes from the fact that there has been so much good and thoughtful suggestions and feedback all pointing towards how to sharpen the tree and now after 3 previews the issues that existed back in Preview 1 and then again in Preview 2 that people wanted to see changed, remain unchanged. It is so close that just a few simple tweaks could put it over the line from wonky to cool. It's just a Kobald tail away from being the awesome Dark Caster it could be, so it's just a little frustrating to see it so close and tripping at the finish line.

I'm still throwing out (dark) Prayers that we can convince the devs to reconsider the T5's and the disjointed nature of this tree before it's release and sharpen it's identity. *fingers crossed*

[karatemack]

My original feedback is still relevant: https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533556-Update-56-Preview-1-Dark-Apostate-Archetype?p=6533326&viewfull=1#post6533326

I think the temp HP addition is "ok", but without a way to scale the curse dice in epics/legendary, it will be a useless ability at cap.

Overall- as a standalone tree/archetype... DA is ok. It would be incredibly interesting and functional if it was supported through epic/legendary levels as well as in domains and deity feats. (see my original feedback post for some pretty neato ideas of how this could be accomplished)

Fingers crossed (once again) that we get some feedback on our feedback.

[Karthunk]

Testing this Archetype just felt bad.

This Archetype needs to go back to the design table and redone.

[Lynnabel]

Quick Wednesday update: I've figured out how to get Dark Apostate-specific variants of Prayer, Bless, Bane, and Bestow Curse to accept appropriate damaging metamagics without propagating them to other spellbooks.

[Xezom]

Quick Wednesday update: I've figured out how to get Dark Apostate-specific variants of Prayer, Bless, Bane, and Bestow Curse to accept appropriate damaging metamagics without propagating them to other spellbooks.

That would most definitely help in the damage department for sure. I'm guessing that since you mention that they are the Dark Apostate Specific versions that they will only apply to the SLA's and not to the base versions? I'm cool with that if it's the case I just want to clarify.

[Lynnabel]

That would most definitely help in the damage department for sure. I'm guessing that since you mention that they are the Dark Apostate Specific versions that they will only apply to the SLA's and not to the base versions? I'm cool with that if it's the case I just want to clarify.

Nope, base spells too! :)

[Xezom]

Nope, base spells too! :)

Oh wow. Alright, I'll admit that was not the method I would've even imagined using to give the tree more punch in it's lunch but that's a creative way of doing it. Tossing around Maximized and Empowered Spellbook version of those debuffs would get expensive to do long term, but it's really nice to have as an option for tougher encounters, especially since they no longer share a CD with the SLA. Also makes it clear that you should be taking Max/Emp/Intense. I would go so far as to argue that it might even need to be watched for being overtuned on the proc. I think because of the SP cost for non SLA in addition to the CD for the SLA that there will be enough downtime to not tip into that range, but at the same time 2d6 every caster level (not sure what the MCL for the effect is, 25?) on a no save Meta-able damage effect is pretty potent.

Only thing I would note is maybe add a class feat, a note in the Core points in the enhancement tree, something in the description of the SLA's, or attached to Pray for Mercy that notes that the spells Bane/Prayer/Bestow Curse/etc can accept damaging Metamagics since that is most definitely a quirky addition that you would never guess on your own.

Seems like a simple change but I can see it having a great impact on making this tree much more viable. When I say simple i mean simple on the surface. I'm sure the coding for that is a royal nightmare.

[Lynnabel]

When I say simple i mean simple on the surface. I'm sure the coding for that is a royal nightmare.

This sort of change is why the Archetype framework is so important. If this were a universal tree we couldn't do this. But since they have their own spellbook, we can.

[Xezom]

This sort of change is why the Archetype framework is so important. If this were a universal tree we couldn't do this. But since they have their own spellbook, we can.

Now see that's really cool and something I would've never even thought of as a perk of Archtypes. I was looking forward to Archtypes cause of the new style they brought but knowing that there's cool stuff like that that can be done makes it seem like the possibilities are virtually limitless. Bravo(a)!

In the case of Spellbooks having quirks like that that I'm sure effect the entire Archtypes spellbook, not just the DA tree, I would definitely recommend adding some feat/note/class feat that notes it. Yeah it'll mostly only be relevant to the DA tree, since it's the only one who is really going to use those spells offensively, but you never know. There might be some weird build come up down the road that uses damage on proc effects like that.


Also out of curiosity, adding things like that won't cause other on cast procs like Lantern ring to get the meta-magic effects? I think that'd be going a tad too far.

[lain5246]

Quick Wednesday update: I've figured out how to get Dark Apostate-specific variants of Prayer, Bless, Bane, and Bestow Curse to accept appropriate damaging metamagics without propagating them to other spellbooks.

What are the chances of getting an negative healing aura similar to healing aura?

[Duno001]

Hi everyone!

1- I haven't seen it in this third preview:
shadow form incorporality and concealment still do not stack with other sources (tested both with new toee loot, and the elf fey energy tap incorpo)

2- The melee critical curse does not increase "pray for mercy" damage, is this wai?
On a side note preview 3 note states t5 for the on crit curse, and in game the tooltip give it on t4.

3- Dark judgement (T4) temporary hitpoints on turn use:
I am supposed to have five dice of imbue, tier 1 to 4 apostate curse upgrades, and the third core.
However in only get 40 temporary hitpoints.
mmmh... reread the description , it says "bonus dice" ... so total -1
should be wai then , but why only "bonus" dice?

4- Related to dark judgement, i multiclassed in paladin sacred fist for acces to radiant servant tree. (i shouldn't be able to, that's weird)
The RS t1 bliss (temp hp on turn use) does not stack with it, in fact it isn't even mentionned in combat log (as in: do not proc).
On the the same topic, for bliss or dark judgement, and the sacred defender third core divine righteousness:
divine righteousness stacks with the other two, but it needs two consecutive turns.

5- Not totally on topic: the radiant servant (sacred fist) t5 "divine energy resistance" use cleric levels.
It give the right bonuses for 8 minures on my DA8/SF6 character.
On a fighter2/SF12, it does consume the 75 spell points but do not give any benefit: "your divine energy resistance has been removed from you".
I guess he is a level 0 cleric and get a 0 minute buff.

6- This is a melee proc, no save effects tree.
I would apreciate the option to choose between strength and wisdom (at t3, t4 and capstone) since it no longer offer wisdom to hit and damage.


It's my first post, not my native language, there may be errors: sorry for that.
And i want to thank you all for all those years of play. :o

And now i'm looking for how to post it... praying for not doing some mistake...

[Karthunk]

What are the chances of getting an negative healing aura similar to healing aura?

The problem with this is that the tree doesn't have a way to stop healing undead npcs. I don't think there is a negative aura in the game that doesn't also hit npcs?

[Lynnabel]

Hi everyone!

1- I haven't seen it in this third preview:
shadow form incorporality and concealment still do not stack with other sources (tested both with new toee loot, and the elf fey energy tap incorpo)

2- The melee critical curse does not increase "pray for mercy" damage, is this wai?
On a side note preview 3 note states t5 for the on crit curse, and in game the tooltip give it on t4.

3- Dark judgement (T4) temporary hitpoints on turn use:
I am supposed to have five dice of imbue, tier 1 to 4 apostate curse upgrades, and the third core.
However in only get 40 temporary hitpoints.
mmmh... reread the description , it says "bonus dice" ... so total -1
should be wai then , but why only "bonus" dice?

4- Related to dark judgement, i multiclassed in paladin sacred fist for acces to radiant servant tree. (i shouldn't be able to, that's weird)
The RS t1 bliss (temp hp on turn use) does not stack with it, in fact it isn't even mentionned in combat log (as in: do not proc).
On the the same topic, for bliss or dark judgement, and the sacred defender third core divine righteousness:
divine righteousness stacks with the other two, but it needs two consecutive turns.

5- Not totally on topic: the radiant servant (sacred fist) t5 "divine energy resistance" use cleric levels.
It give the right bonuses for 8 minures on my DA8/SF6 character.
On a fighter2/SF12, it does consume the 75 spell points but do not give any benefit: "your divine energy resistance has been removed from you".
I guess he is a level 0 cleric and get a 0 minute buff.

6- This is a melee proc, no save effects tree.
I would apreciate the option to choose between strength and wisdom (at t3, t4 and capstone) since it no longer offer wisdom to hit and damage.


It's my first post, not my native language, there may be errors: sorry for that.
And i want to thank you all for all those years of play. :o

And now i'm looking for how to post it... praying for not doing some mistake...

This is great, thank you.

1: I've just gotten the concealment to stack properly but the incorp is giving me trouble. It looks like all sources of Incorp currently do not stack correctly.

2: Great catch, it was using the wrong curse effect.

3: I've just changed it to use total dice.

4: I will antirequisite the first cores of both trees, you're right that it shouldn't be possible to take both.

5: Great catch, have fixed this.

Thank you!! <3

[Archfae]

Quick Wednesday update: I've figured out how to get Dark Apostate-specific variants of Prayer, Bless, Bane, and Bestow Curse to accept appropriate damaging metamagics without propagating them to other spellbooks.

This is a good change, but it doesn't really fix the identity crisis this tree has.

If you are content to just go evil damage doer then you have a lot of work to do to make that functional. Additionally, we still have the same problem where a lot of light/good spells are just better supported. I'm going to suggest a unholy wrath variant of divine wrath be added with a shared cooldown with divine wrath to the spellbook options in level 9 spells. Or possibly an sla in this tree.

All that being said, I'd still much prefer a debuff focused playstyle rather than version 40 of the damage caster playstyle.

Also, with the stack nature of concealment, is the intent that this tree + shadowdancer mantle + displace clickies would allow you to get to 100% concealment value? If that's the case, there's a lot of defensive value there (though not quite what feydark shadowdancer illusionist builds achieve). But somehow I don't think this was intended.

[Xezom]

This is a good change, but it doesn't really fix the identity crisis this tree has.

If you are content to just go evil damage doer then you have a lot of work to do to make that functional. Additionally, we still have the same problem where a lot of light/good spells are just better supported. I'm going to suggest a unholy wrath variant of divine wrath be added with a shared cooldown with divine wrath to the spellbook options in level 9 spells. Or possibly an sla in this tree.

All that being said, I'd still much prefer a debuff focused playstyle rather than version 40 of the damage caster playstyle.

Also, with the stack nature of concealment, is the intent that this tree + shadowdancer mantle + displace clickies would allow you to get to 100% concealment value? If that's the case, there's a lot of defensive value there (though not quite what feydark shadowdancer illusionist builds achieve). But somehow I don't think this was intended.

I'll definitely echo that I would have loved to seen this tree go the route of a debuffer, but I'll also say that it will also be a lot nicer that it will have some much needed extra fire power. I'm still a little lost on what Domain to take cause Death domain for Curse + Destruction Spam is just really good once your curse can't fail, but with the primary power of the tree now coming from Evil damage it makes taking Sun, or to a lesser extent, Good options as well simply for the extra radiance power (and heal on the Good domain, and light SLA's on the Sun). It just feels wrong to take Sun/Good on a Evil based character. Since the consealment was working this round, I even did a round of Luck Domain for the Displacement SLA, moderate Spell DC, and enhanced saves (actually did a lot better than I thought it would).

If it's not this tree, I hope to see a full dedicated debuffer Archtype somewhere in the near future (though I do really like the aesthetic and theme of this one for a debuffing character). As it is Warlocks have some of the best debuffing abilties in their enhancements, but I would argue that by default Clerics/FS spellbooks are the most debuff loaded. However, knowing what I know now about how Funky the devs can get when it comes to the spellbooks with these Archtypes, I'd also say that thematically a Warlock could also easily fit the bill as a debuffer by switching the Soul Eater tree which is based around Eldrich blast + Consume + Stricken, and replacing it with a true casters Warlock that slings debuff SLAs that are added to the Warlock Spellbook from other classes with a few unique ones to boot. Heck at this point I'm sure they could even do some cool stuff with replacing some eldrich blast mechanics for debuff slinging/power draining.

The Debuffer fantasy lives on, I just don't think it's going to be realized in this tree. I'm at least glad to see that the tree is getting some oomph in a way that's tied to it's most unique ability even if it's not necessarily what I'd originally hoped for.

[Shedrakzo]

Got some more DA feedback, though I wrote quite a bit more than I realized.

Previously, when I suggested putting Apostate Curse dice in the cores, I meant die increases similar to the later EK cores, not actually spreading what dice existed into the cores. But that’s still fine; is there a chance we can see the cores increase the base die to 1d8 and potentially 1d10?

As it stands with the changes in Preview 3, the Apostate Curse die will end up at 10d6 theoretical maximum, requiring the player to spend at least 41 points in DA and taking their level 31 feat slot. Compared to the EK dice of: 7d12 base die for 41 points in EK, with a theoretical maximum of 12d12 base (augment, feat, and destiny) and 16d12 for 30 seconds during Eldritch Power.

Admittedly the Evil Damage from Apostate’s Curse is less resisted, but it’s also looking at half the damage of the EK imbue. Allowing it to scale to 1d10 maximum maintains that EK deals more damage when not resisted, but also rewards higher investment in Dark Apostate. So probably just put the die increases in, like, core 12, 18, or 20.

But I have another idea for adding a bit more damage to the Apostate’s Curse line without touching the damage die, as well supporting the general consensus of people wanting to play more with a curse/debuff line. The game already supports it, it just need to be added to the imbue.

So my first suggestion: For the T2 Enhanced Curse, add the Cursespewing effect to any weapon you equip. (Bonus points if the damage here could be changed to Bane damage and scales with Force spellpower. I’m talking both the item effect and the enhancement.)

My second suggestion for this boosted Curse line is to add Improved Cursespewing (again with scaling, please?) at T4 Enhanced Curse.

Together these create a stacking -8 debuff, and can stack with the actual curse effects elsewhere in the tree.

To balance this, the T5 Ultimate Heresy drops applying curse on hit. Instead, it applies Improved Quelling Strikes to your equipped weapon. This feels like a much more thematically appropriate effect and has synergy with certain 'evil/cursed' items in the game. Which means on a vorpal at level 12, you'd apply a set of debuffs resulting in -8 saves, attack, and damage for enemies. As well as potentially preventing enemies from casting divine spells.

To further emphasis this focus on cursing, hexing, debuffing, let’s see what low hanging fruit we can add to the tree:
My next suggestion would be to add Roar and Roaring (the ‘guard’ and ‘attack’ procs) at core 6 or 12. -2 saves that’ll stack with curse and improved cursespewing, not super powerful and the debuff doesn’t last more than a few seconds even in non-reaper but it can add up over time.

Now for a unique capstone. My suggestion here is to give Dark Apostate a player version of the Mummy Despair aura. Give it a DC (instead of being completely blocked by fear immunity) and I think this would be a great defining ability.


Now, let’s talk about the caster side of the tree. My idea would be to make the ‘left’ side of the Tiers a caster tree, and the right the melee, with utility in the middle for everyone. To that end, I don’t want to tread on the current SLA options. I would start by combining Traditional Caster and Apostate’s Skills into a singular enhancement. This sort of enhances the value of either one and changes them from being an AP sink.

Now that we’ve got a new T1 slot available, let’s throw in a multiselector SLA choice. I suggest Darkfire (wisdom based), Ghoul Touch, or Chill Touch as the 3 options available at this tier:

Darkfire is the pure damage option. I’d love to see this grant a bonus to drow, either as a separate SLA cooldown or perhaps causing Darkfire to deal double damage or firing two rays.
Ghoul Touch is a pretty underutilized CC ability across the game as a whole. Here it provides a solid way to CC any living creature. Though maybe the spell could use a tweak to its range.
Chill Touch is the middle option. it deals negative energy damage to mobs and CCs undead. This was a good ability in the original Dark Disciple and definitely should have remained.


For T2 I don’t want to introduce a new SLA to this line. Instead I’d add an attached enhancement for spellpower; either evil/light or negative.

T3 and time for a new multi selector: Poison, Lesser Death Aura, or Necrotic Bolt.

Poison for the debuffers
LDA for those who want the sustain
Necrotic Bolt for those who are focusing on negative damage.


T4 either spellpower again or some form of Negative Immunity stripping like Unholy Avatar.

T5 is where things can get spicy with the SLAs: Moonburst, Negative Energy Burst, or Enervation.

Moonburst, being a variant of Sunburst, deals both evil and negative damage instead of light. As a trade off, this loses the ability to instakill undead. Perhaps it panics them similar to Chill Touch.
NEB is NEB. We all loved it in the original Dark Disciple for a reason. It’s a nice nuke when in SLA format and certainly makes a nice heal button while you’re undead as well. But don’t forget that the Dark Disciple version of this spell could cast on enemies instead of being centered on the player 24/7, which was part of the uniqueness.
Enervation appeals to those wanting to debuff and with the recent changes applies a negative DoT.


Another solid option for this tree would be a mirror opposite of the Positive Energy Burst channel divinity from Radiant Savant. A negative version that also uses turn charges and applies similar restore abilities (opposed to normal NEB) could be interesting. It means you can still restore normal allies, deal damage with your burst, and provide the temp HP now in the tree. And heal undead.

One last thing to discuss is the Incorporeality/Concealment of the DA form. It keeps being brought up that it is intended to be stacking with items. Is this also intended to stack with Shadowform from Shadowdancer? This would create a unique synergy and certainly be thematic, which I hope is the intent.

[SpardaX]

Return to Dusk: While you are in any Undead form, when you are knocked unconscious, you dissolve into shadows, granting you Invisibility and Displacement. After 5 seconds, your body reforms, and you are healed for 1d6 Negative Energy per Character Level. This may only happen once every 3 minutes.


Hey quick question if I can

Does this benefit from negative spell power?

[LittleLexi]

All that being said, I'd still much prefer a debuff focused playstyle rather than version 40 of the damage caster playstyle.



So much this. We have plenty of nuking. But there is a real void in the realm of debuffing. I thought this tree would fulfill that somewhat. It's not really doing it. And there is so much potential too!

Even the Undead shroud could be much more interesting. Give us different forms like:

-Mummy Lord(Curse focused. Fear-based effects. +MRR)
-Wight Priest(Chant focused. Only form allowed to use light/cure spells)
-Vengeful Spectre(Incorporeality. Stat drain. Moves through enemies and debuffs them in the process. Raises slain enemies as short-living spectre allies)
-Vampire Ritualist(Vampirism. Blood Tribute. Dark Discorporation. Dominate. +PRR)

These would all work with the Divine theme and could give us a lot more options.

[Claver]

Possible Bug


The various inflict wounds, mass spells DO NOT trigger Shirardi effects. They don't seem to count as an offensive spell. I only tested on a Dark Apostate/Apothecary mix


By comparison, Apothecary Inflict wounds Admixture SLAs and Spells trigger Shirardi effects (Prism, Stay Strong, Double Rainbow) both on Live and on Lamannia

[SpardaX]

What Alignment will a Dark Apostate be starting as or Restricted to? Would you allow this Archetype to actually be Evil Aligned?

This was answered in a previous preview, that no, evil will never come to DDO. DA has no alignment restriction, just like regular cleric.

[SpardaX]

Long story short: the tree doesnt do anything that would make a Cleric want to be one, it defines no unique playstyle that scales well enough to be viable

Let me start by saying, this tree is obviously not a casting focused tree.

Now let me focus on what I've highlighted.

I dunno man, I'm personally itching to get this on my HC character. It should increased my survivability dramatically. To the point that Iv remade what was going to be a 13 Cleric / 6 Barbarian / 1 Rogue build, to an 18 DA Cleric/1/1, currently level 6, sitting there semi-patiently with my free new toon heart of wood. I can't wait.

[Pretty_Good_Old_One]

Hi,
not sure if this has been mentioned before:

Cursed words seems to be doing less than damage than described against undead. My character has 3 levels of Dark Apostate, and has taken Apostate's Curse and Enhanced Curse 1&2. I am seeing around 3 dice of extra evil damage on melee (a little high, but I am assuming that is because I have some light spellpower). I tested Cursed Words in Saltmarsh, and I was consistently getting 30-45 damage against skeletons there.

With the 3 cursed dice, I would have expected 3*(6d6) - average 63 damage. What I am seeing looks closer to 2*(6d6) damage. Is it possible this has the same issue that the temporary hitpoints do?

One other minor issue: the weapon details in inventory list all the specials for the different levels of Apostate's Curse, but it only lists 1d6 extra damage. The weapon appears to be doing 3d6 extra damage - so it works, just the weapon description is not listing the enhanced curse extra dice.

Thanks for all the work on this. This has been a fun class to try out.

[Lynnabel]

Hi,
not sure if this has been mentioned before:

Cursed words seems to be doing less than damage than described against undead. My character has 3 levels of Dark Apostate, and has taken Apostate's Curse and Enhanced Curse 1&2. I am seeing around 3 dice of extra evil damage on melee (a little high, but I am assuming that is because I have some light spellpower). I tested Cursed Words in Saltmarsh, and I was consistently getting 30-45 damage against skeletons there.

With the 3 cursed dice, I would have expected 3*(6d6) - average 63 damage. What I am seeing looks closer to 2*(6d6) damage. Is it possible this has the same issue that the temporary hitpoints do?

One other minor issue: the weapon details in inventory list all the specials for the different levels of Apostate's Curse, but it only lists 1d6 extra damage. The weapon appears to be doing 3d6 extra damage - so it works, just the weapon description is not listing the enhanced curse extra dice.

Thanks for all the work on this. This has been a fun class to try out.

It is indeed the same issue (and therefore all fixed)! Glad you're having fun trying out Dark Apostate :)

[QuantumFX]

So, Lynn I've been trying out the new Divine Disciple o a regular cleric and I have to ask: Do I really have to trade the capstone for Word of Balance? That seems like a trap.

[arklemighty]

I have been trying to find out if cleric and DA PL bonuses will stack - i.e. if i have 3 cleric PLs (+3 conjuration DCs) but then get 3 DA PLs (+15 neg amp and spell power), do i get all these bonuses?

And of course likewise for the other archetypes.

Thanks

[Wongar]

In order to take the "Domain Smiting" line you have to take both Light and Dark cores. This results in you NOT BEING ABLE TO GET GET THE DD CAPSTONE.

You have removed all the "Spellpower: Universal" enhancements which is a reduction in 36 universal spell power.

I don't understand the reasoning for the convoluted cores going from both left to right and right to left. Is not the whole idea behind archtypes to allow you do so wired "funky fresh" stuff without having to cram it into the standard enhancement trees in a non-standard, non-intuitive way that punishes existing builds?

[Lynnabel]

I have been trying to find out if cleric and DA PL bonuses will stack - i.e. if i have 3 cleric PLs (+3 conjuration DCs) but then get 3 DA PLs (+15 neg amp and spell power), do i get all these bonuses?

And of course likewise for the other archetypes.

Thanks

Yes, they stack.


In order to take the "Domain Smiting" line you have to take both Light and Dark cores. This results in you NOT BEING ABLE TO GET GET THE DD CAPSTONE.

You have removed all the "Spellpower: Universal" enhancements which is a reduction in 36 universal spell power.

I don't understand the reasoning for the convoluted cores going from both left to right and right to left. Is not the whole idea behind archtypes to allow you do so wired "funky fresh" stuff without having to cram it into the standard enhancement trees in a non-standard, non-intuitive way that punishes existing builds?

The cores now give +5 Universal each, so that's +30 you can access quite early (by mixing core types). So it's not quite as dire as it may seem :)

[karatemack]

Can we please get some clarification on how the negative energy will scale into epics/legendary? There's no domain, no epic feats and no deity feats that really support the new playstyle.

As it stands, this will be a great tree to splash in for melee.

[SpardaX]

I have been trying to find out if cleric and DA PL bonuses will stack - i.e. if i have 3 cleric PLs (+3 conjuration DCs) but then get 3 DA PLs (+15 neg amp and spell power), do i get all these bonuses?

And of course likewise for the other archetypes.

Thanks

Should all stack yes. Effectively this means cleric now has 6 PLs attached to it. But as normal, you only need 1 to qualify for Completionist.

[homepage9]

This tree has very strange core abilities. It will not make sense unless you look at it in-game.



Transcend Light: Req having only Emissary of Light cores. You now gain the Spellbook spells of the Path of Darkness.
Transcend Darkness: Req having only Emissary of Darkness cores: You now gain the Spellbook spells of the Path of Light.
Bring Balance: req having both Light and Dark cores: The Word of Balance spell is added to your Spellbook at level 7. (yes, both light and dark cores... this tree is funky fresh)


[/COLOR]

a little quest, just a little.
since we have word of balance in DDO, why could we have "Holy Word" and "Blasphemy" in light or darkness.
however, you can just make it affect like "word of balance".
I thought it will make a new world for some alignment clr.

[Gnominal_Aphasia]

Hi, read a lot of text walls about Dark Apostate... maybe I missed something, but can anyone tell me if DA also gets access to Domains? Thanks!

EDIT... I am sure that I saw a video with Lynnabel months ago where they said that more immunity stripping would be implemented in heroics... what happened to that part? Negative/Cold/Electric etc.

EDIT2 Cursed Words SLA... I don't get the notion of this only applying to undead. Why not have damage to all monsters? Sort of echoing what others have written, when faced with undead hit the Holy Smite button... why would I need another undead only ability?

EDIT3 Does DA have any advantages over [my preferred style] normal Cleric with Death Domain and Light Emissary?

[Lotoc]

Hi, read a lot of text walls about Dark Apostate... maybe I missed something, but can anyone tell me if DA also gets access to Domains? Thanks!

EDIT... I am sure that I saw a video with Lynnabel months ago where they said that more immunity stripping would be implemented in heroics... what happened to that part? Negative/Cold/Electric etc.

You very likely did not see such a thing as immunity strips are one of lynnabel's big things he wants to remove from the game in favor of specific spells just ignoring immunities or casters having fall back elements.
This is why the design of DA is actually more about evil damage sources than negative so you have consistent damage, it's also why stormsinger is designed to be a tri-element caster instead of slapping in elec immunity strip.

[Lotoc]

so something occured to me about the first cores
Emissary of Light: Req Cleric 1, antireq Emissary of Darkness: You have chosen Light as your path. For each Core Ability you take in this tree, you gain +5 Light and +5 Universal Spellpower.
Emissary of Darkness: Req Cleric 1, antireq Emissary of Light: You have chosen Darkness as your path. For each Core Ability you take in this tree, you gain +5 Negative and +5 Universal spellpower.

For a start they're improperly tagged as antireqs of each other when the design has you able to take each.
But also it's saying "For each core ability you take in this tree" rather than "For each core you take in this path"
Does this mean that if you have both the dark and light core 1s each core is going to give 5 light, 5 negative and 10 universal spellpower? This is kind of what the current text implies.
May be a bit strong if that is how it'd work but honestly for the tradeoff of being unable to take the capstone +30 L/N and 30 U spellpower is probably fair.

[Gnominal_Aphasia]

You very likely did not see such a thing as immunity strips are one of lynnabel's big things he wants to remove from the game in favor of specific spells just ignoring immunities or casters having fall back elements.
This is why the design of DA is actually more about evil damage sources than negative so you have consistent damage, it's also why stormsinger is designed to be a tri-element caster instead of slapping in elec immunity strip.

I did see Lynnabel mention that immunity stripping would be implemented in heroic trees during a discussion with Strimtom on EDs. But I do recognise that Stormsinger would provide three "elements" which can help against immunity, and also recognise that by providing bards access to high damage cold and electric spells is exciting; I think that a change of heart concerning immunity stripping happened when designing (but not testing) the new Archetypes. I wonder if EDs such as Fatesinger will be modified down the road to add synergy for these new builds.

[DRoark]

Yeah, I see no reason to play any of these new archtypes. As one of many who have completionist, there's no value to redoing the same multiple classes 3x each, to get +15 NHA, for example. If they
functioned as NORMAL classes, you could do an Iconic-Normal-Archtype, and be done, but they're putting in another hamsterwheel to dangle a carrot, and jack up Otto's/XP/Slayer sales... yet again.

As it stands, at least 9 more lives for a bare minimal return. Not for us.

[Xezom]

Yeah, I see no reason to play any of these new archtypes. As one of many who have completionist, there's no value to redoing the same multiple classes 3x each, to get +15 NHA, for example. If they
functioned as NORMAL classes, you could do an Iconic-Normal-Archtype, and be done, but they're putting in another hamsterwheel to dangle a carrot, and jack up Otto's/XP/Slayer sales... yet again.

As it stands, at least 9 more lives for a bare minimal return. Not for us.

I'd disagree on premise. If they really wanted to jack up Otto's/XP/Slayer sales they'd disable completionist until you had your Archtypes done too. That or they'd make the Past Life feats so uber that you couldn't pass them up no matter what you play on. As it is, neither of those are true. If they made them function as normal classes, you would. (Lose completionist until you were forced to play through the whole life as an Archtype or Otto box/XP pot up through it)

Adding different past life feats and still fulfilling the criteria for Completionist Feats whether you play base or Archtype simply makes it so that you have options for obtaining the same feat and fine tuning your PLs for your specific end build you have in mind.

I do, however, agree that if you have your completionist AND none of the PL feats are that good for your end goal build, don't bother with them. The beauty is that you'll lose nothing by doing so with the method they took on them as is.



I did see Lynnabel mention that immunity stripping would be implemented in heroic trees during a discussion with Strimtom on EDs. But I do recognise that Stormsinger would provide three "elements" which can help against immunity, and also recognise that by providing bards access to high damage cold and electric spells is exciting; I think that a change of heart concerning immunity stripping happened when designing (but not testing) the new Archetypes. I wonder if EDs such as Fatesinger will be modified down the road to add synergy for these new builds.

I'm hoping so. Right now the DA you are between Magus and Exalted Angel (depending on what domain you go and what splash you go). Both of which feel kinda weird as they supplant the core DA playstyle of Cursing/hexing and evil damage, or don't contribute much in the case of Curse + destruction Spam (shattermantle is never bad for overcoming SR).

Gear also can be made to fit some of these Archtypes as well. As it is most gear that has Boon of Undeath is Intel oriented. With the introduction of DA there are now builds that can use Wisdom, Charisma, and Intel that would effectively use it.

[LurkingVeteran]

If this is the design you are going with, then I would consider adding some Curse dice in epics like for EK, Sacred Fist etc. Otherwise the curse damage will max out at 189 in heroics, while spells (fortunately) get at least +5 MCL in epics these days.

Second, this tree is Force, Negative and Light. Last time I looked the gear and other progression still did not allow spreading yourself that thin in epics. I recommend at least some way of reducing that to to two for spell power by allowing use of the highest like in e.g. the Fire Domain. Optionally, it might have made sense to convert all Bane damage in this tree and certain other cleric spells to Evil damage, or perhaps more easily, Evil damage to Bane damage (I think it's mainly Prayer that still does it).

[LurkingVeteran]

As for the questions of how this tree is to be used, I think it seems to focus heavily on single target casting through bane damage on curse and boosted Harm, in addition to insta-kills (no-save curse, necro DC) and the other negative DDs somewhat. This is best in groups. You will have a toolkit to deal with moderate-fort insta-killable monsters, high fort non-undead monsters (Harm, Inflight Critical), high-will non-undead monsters (necrotic ray w/ DD), with some extra Curse Bane damage on top that works on everything. It's a bit weird that you first do a ton of damage via Curse before you insta-kill them but OK... For soloing, if you curse multiple mobs, and they all live, you can use the Prayer AoE to finish them off. It's not the fastest approach, and you may want to rely on Inflict, Mass when possible. To overcome the critical weakness against undead, you might want to pick up Sunburst or splash 4 PM, but the new bane damage helps a bit. In any case, it seems like you could make a potentially decent group build out of the tree.

It's not the best offensive build, but it's on a cleric template so maybe that is fine. The main problem is that the three is a bit incoherent still. What I don't get is the curse dice on melee since this is 90% a caster tree. It would have made a lot more sense to have it added to spells much like sneak attack gets added in Shadowdancer. The only reason I see is as a support splash for Warpriest in Heroics (which is known to be very anemic). In addition, why it uses three different spell powers (all almost irresistible) is also a mystery to me.

Finally, I think you could increase Harm scaling to 250% to 300% for the damage side at least, and it still wouldn't be OP. It has MCL15 and short range with 35sp.

[Xezom]

As for the questions of how this tree is to be used, I think it seems to focus heavily on single target casting through bane damage on curse and boosted Harm, in addition to insta-kills (no-save curse, necro DC) and the other negative DDs somewhat. This is best in groups. You will have a toolkit to deal with moderate-fort insta-killable monsters, high fort non-undead monsters (Harm, Inflight Critical), high-will non-undead monsters (necrotic ray w/ DD), with some extra Curse Bane damage on top that works on everything. It's a bit weird that you first do a ton of damage via Curse before you insta-kill them but OK... For soloing, if you curse multiple mobs, and they all live, you can use the Prayer AoE to finish them off. It's not the fastest approach, and you may want to rely on Inflict, Mass when possible. To overcome the critical weakness against undead, you might want to pick up Sunburst or splash 4 PM, but the new bane damage helps a bit. In any case, it seems like you could make a potentially decent group build out of the tree.

It's not the best offensive build, but it's on a cleric template so maybe that is fine. The main problem is that the three is a bit incoherent still. What I don't get is the curse dice on melee since this is 90% a caster tree. It would have made a lot more sense to have it added to spells much like sneak attack gets added in Shadowdancer. The only reason I see is as a support splash for Warpriest in Heroics (which is known to be very anemic). In addition, why it uses three different spell powers (all almost irresistible) is also a mystery to me.

Finally, I think you could increase Harm scaling to 250% to 300% for the damage side at least, and it still wouldn't be OP. It has MCL15 and short range with 35sp.

From what I played of it and based on the changes going in that allow damage meta-magics (Max/Emp/Intensify) on Curse, Bane, Bless, and prayer here's how I went and would suggest:

-Death Domain or Sun Domain - I lean towards Death because Destruction SLA and Necro DC's, but Sun is good too for Sunburst/Searinglight SLAs vs Undead and light spell power amps up the Evil from Pray for Mercy.
-Focus on Negative & Light Spell power. Don't bother with Force spell power. Yes Cursed words makes Curse to 6d6/DA dice in bane damage, but once the change that make it compatible with max/int/emp you'll get enough power from that to really not need it. Additionally you cleric spell book has Holy Smite and Searing light to make short work of lots of undead if you stack Light power, which consequently also scales your evil.
-Necro DC's. No real point in taking any other DC's really. Can splash some evocation if you have free space but don't focus it.
-Early game/Heroics up to 14 are very much: Mark a prio Target with Curse, Hit group with Bane (spell), if group gets close, hit Prayer. Tougher Living targets you can soften up with Necrotic Ray SLA, Tougher undead targets make sure you mark with Curse and either repeat rotation or hit with holy smite/Searing light.
-Past 14, Clear trash with Bane (Spell)/prayer as usual. High threat targets, hit with Curse and Destruction SLA. You end up with pretty good Necro DCs thanks to Death Domain and Feats so as long as not a super high fort/high SR you're almost guaranteed to inst-kill them.
-Past 11-12, for Undead you'll now have Undeath to Death. The Spell is a little wonky to use and Undead typically have fairly good Will saves, but it works really well for thinning out undead packs to a more managable size to finish off with Curse/Bane/Prayer rotation.
-Boon of Undeath items are a plus but most are tied with Intel, so don't get tripped up on fitting them in they aren't essential.

Epics:
This is where it gets messy.

-You really choose either Magus or Exalted Angel. Magus works best with Death Domain and Exalted Angel works with Sun.
--Exalted you'll use more of the Epic SLA's with some support from your Bane (Spell), Curse, Prayer, but less so. Unfortunately it's mostly evocation so you end up with lots of saves later on for things like Holy Fireball and Sunbolt. Also you are Undead with your Shade form for the Healing Aura is cut in half on you and you aren't throwing a lot of Positive spells to pro the Mantle often.
--Magus is the way I went and it worked decently. Gloomspear's Shattermantle helps with SR and it's negative which you're going to be building anyway, later on it gains the ability to paralyze too. Together with your saveless curse it happens often. The mantle is... okay... Doesn't do you a ton, but some passive damage to things nearby when you do occasionally cast Prayer is ok. Nullmagic strike fits nicely with the debuffing theme so that one actually pans out well. Moon's shadow is also decent since it's once again a necro and negative spell. You'll still rely on Undeath to Death and Curse + Bane/Prayer/Holy smite/ Searing light/etc for undead if you go Magus since you wont have anything new to deal with undead from your destiny. You can always throw additional points you have into exalted just for the first light SLA to help out with that.
-Still focus on Negative and Light with Necro DC's. Blur/Discplacement with your Shade form also help out a lot for some extra defense.
-Feats in Epics are rough. You can take the enhanced DA dice at 31, epic spell power (neg/light), epic spell focus Necro, epic Spell Pen, Intensify. Otherwise your options are pretty limited. There is no Epic caster level spell feat at 24 that applies to your SLA's since they all run up to 20 naturally anyway (plus the 5 CL/MCL from epics you naturally get).

That's how it worked out for me. I honestly very rarely if ever used Harm offensively during the testing, same can be said with the inflict spells. I used them for self healing but not for damage unless things were so stubborn I couldn't saw through them, but I think with the changes being made to allow Bane/Curse/Bless/Prayer to accept damaging Meta-Magics I'll end up using inflict spells even less. Curse + Destruction was the MVP combo for me, but we will see after the metamagic change if that holds true.


One VERY important note. If you are going Dark Apostate, you are NOT a healer. I know it's against the Cleric way of life when people see a Cleric in a party, but you simply aren't. Unless your whole party is undead (unlikely) your healing potential for the group is pretty garbo. It's not an Archtype designed for that and you can tell. So don't get suckered into being told you have to heal if you are a cleric/DA cause it's not going to be pretty if you try. You are, for lack of better word, DPS. I wouldn't argue that you are a GREAT DPS, but that's the role DA takes in it's current form. DPS with some debuffing splashed in and self-heal. You could potentially be an off-healer or an alternate Res-bot, but you wont be keeping whole raid parties alive anytime soon.

[DRoark]

They wouldn't have to disable anything. By adding more PLs to the same class you effectively need 6, assuming you doubled-up on Iconic. People have addictive tendencies, and
they're counting on that, free isn't free. If SSG wanted to add an Archtype tree in each class, they could EASILY have used an Exclusion (such as take Dark, you can't choose Light).

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There are a lot of great reasons to go this route, and we'd love to talk through some of them to help explain why we're angling in this direction.

1: Making new classes is hard - both technically and design-wise. There are only so many D&D classes in the books and the ones that are left retread old ground considerably. We'd never be able to make Class 16 without significant overlap with existing character options, something that feels bad from a design perspective and worse from a player perspective. Tons of great design space is locked up already and we needed a way to go back and fill in our gaps.

2: Technically speaking, this is a lot better than making new classes for a lot of reasons due to how DDO's engine functions. There's a ton of work to get a new class up on the LFM panel, for example, that with Archetypes we simply do not need to do. It prevents our UI from becoming bloated in a variety of places. It also prevents player information overload - rather than having 30 classes, sticking to our current 15 means they're still easily recognizable at a glance UI-wise.

3: This allows us to revisit design space that our existing classes touch upon and give it the love it deserves. If an existing class sorta-supports an archetype, this is a way for us to build that idea out and give it support in a way that doesn't mess with existing builds and archetypes.

4: Archetypes are easier for us to build than regular classes which means we can release more of them more frequently. It also means that we can do weirder things with them - if our ideas don't pan out, design-wise, we're not wasting years of work on a risky idea that doesn't land. We can take more risks, which feels great for us and will likely turn out some insane and unbelievable results.

5: Archetypes give us a great way to schedule revamps and retooling of existing class features. We have historically had a hard time pinning revamps down to a set schedule, but this gives us a great way to order and organize our class initiatives. For example, (and we're going into this later down in this post), Dark Apostate releases alongside a revamp of Divine Disciple. If we're building a Archetype, that's a great time to shore up other parts of the class we're building on - since it all fits together into one cohesive whole.

6: Archetypes are an experiment to see if they resonate better with the players than new Universal Trees do. Universal trees are a struggle to design because they need to appeal universally across many builds - and these are the exact opposite. We want to build narrow, flavorful, high-impact and interesting options that players can choose from, compared to Universal Trees that everyone can access on top of an existing class split. This definitely isn't to say that we won't ever make more Universal Trees, but for right now we're trying this new direction to see if it lands better.

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Nothing said in the "reason" comments would stop them doing the EXACT SAME THING with less work, using an exclusion class-tree. It's not a universal, doesn't add another separate class,
can be used with the same unique feats, and require no more programming than making cleric 2.0. There are zero valid points in having two versions of the same class, and adding some tiny
PL bonus to the junkpile.

... and before you even start, exclusion coding is ALREADY in the game, so they know how it works. )

[Xezom]

...free isn't free. If SSG wanted to add an Archtype tree in each class, they could EASILY have used an Exclusion (such as take Dark, you can't choose Light).

Absoultely. Free isn't free, but if it was totally free there wouldn't be a game. The age old free to play but still have to keep the lights on issue. Not to mention trying to balance giving things out vs still being perceived as predatory. (Paided universals with no feats/pl/etc vs Free Archtype that could lead to addictive personalities having issues with self control and result in Otto/XP pot/Slayer sales)

As far as EASILY making an exclusion. You are right that there are exclusions for sure and could easily make exclusion trees, but as was said earlier in this forum thread, there are things that can be done by making it it's own unique sub-class that simply can't be done as a universal or exclusion tree within a class. The changing what meta-magics work on specific spells to enable new styles of using them is one that was specifically noted by lynn just in this thread.

I understand that not everyone is going to like this style, but then again not everyone likes universal trees either. The long and short of it is: If like you say it's worthless to you to play it for <insert whatever reason you feel that way>, then simply don't play it. That's a valid way to look at it. However, just because it's not worth playing to you, doesn't mean it's not worth having in the game or as an option for players who do.

That said, I do agree that I don't think the three starting Archtypes are great examples of wow-ing new mechanics/play styles that bring people in to play a new style or expand on an underutilized game mechanic, but I'm sure as they get more under their belt they'll fine tune them to the point they are. (or at least I hope) Nothing is ever amazing on the first run.

[LurkingVeteran]

From what I played of it and based on the changes going in that allow damage meta-magics (Max/Emp/Intensify) on Curse, Bane, Bless, and prayer here's how I went and would suggest:

-Death Domain or Sun Domain - I lean towards Death because Destruction SLA and Necro DC's, but Sun is good too for Sunburst/Searinglight SLAs vs Undead and light spell power amps up the Evil from Pray for Mercy.
-Focus on Negative & Light Spell power. Don't bother with Force spell power. Yes Cursed words makes Curse to 6d6/DA dice in bane damage, but once the change that make it compatible with max/int/emp you'll get enough power from that to really not need it. Additionally you cleric spell book has Holy Smite and Searing light to make short work of lots of undead if you stack Light power, which consequently also scales your evil.
-Necro DC's. No real point in taking any other DC's really. Can splash some evocation if you have free space but don't focus it.
-Early game/Heroics up to 14 are very much: Mark a prio Target with Curse, Hit group with Bane (spell), if group gets close, hit Prayer. Tougher Living targets you can soften up with Necrotic Ray SLA, Tougher undead targets make sure you mark with Curse and either repeat rotation or hit with holy smite/Searing light.
-Past 14, Clear trash with Bane (Spell)/prayer as usual. High threat targets, hit with Curse and Destruction SLA. You end up with pretty good Necro DCs thanks to Death Domain and Feats so as long as not a super high fort/high SR you're almost guaranteed to inst-kill them.
-Past 11-12, for Undead you'll now have Undeath to Death. The Spell is a little wonky to use and Undead typically have fairly good Will saves, but it works really well for thinning out undead packs to a more managable size to finish off with Curse/Bane/Prayer rotation.
-Boon of Undeath items are a plus but most are tied with Intel, so don't get tripped up on fitting them in they aren't essential.

Epics:
This is where it gets messy.

-You really choose either Magus or Exalted Angel. Magus works best with Death Domain and Exalted Angel works with Sun.
--Exalted you'll use more of the Epic SLA's with some support from your Bane (Spell), Curse, Prayer, but less so. Unfortunately it's mostly evocation so you end up with lots of saves later on for things like Holy Fireball and Sunbolt. Also you are Undead with your Shade form for the Healing Aura is cut in half on you and you aren't throwing a lot of Positive spells to pro the Mantle often.
--Magus is the way I went and it worked decently. Gloomspear's Shattermantle helps with SR and it's negative which you're going to be building anyway, later on it gains the ability to paralyze too. Together with your saveless curse it happens often. The mantle is... okay... Doesn't do you a ton, but some passive damage to things nearby when you do occasionally cast Prayer is ok. Nullmagic strike fits nicely with the debuffing theme so that one actually pans out well. Moon's shadow is also decent since it's once again a necro and negative spell. You'll still rely on Undeath to Death and Curse + Bane/Prayer/Holy smite/ Searing light/etc for undead if you go Magus since you wont have anything new to deal with undead from your destiny. You can always throw additional points you have into exalted just for the first light SLA to help out with that.
-Still focus on Negative and Light with Necro DC's. Blur/Discplacement with your Shade form also help out a lot for some extra defense.
-Feats in Epics are rough. You can take the enhanced DA dice at 31, epic spell power (neg/light), epic spell focus Necro, epic Spell Pen, Intensify. Otherwise your options are pretty limited. There is no Epic caster level spell feat at 24 that applies to your SLA's since they all run up to 20 naturally anyway (plus the 5 CL/MCL from epics you naturally get).

That's how it worked out for me. I honestly very rarely if ever used Harm offensively during the testing, same can be said with the inflict spells. I used them for self healing but not for damage unless things were so stubborn I couldn't saw through them, but I think with the changes being made to allow Bane/Curse/Bless/Prayer to accept damaging Meta-Magics I'll end up using inflict spells even less. Curse + Destruction was the MVP combo for me, but we will see after the metamagic change if that holds true.


One VERY important note. If you are going Dark Apostate, you are NOT a healer. I know it's against the Cleric way of life when people see a Cleric in a party, but you simply aren't. Unless your whole party is undead (unlikely) your healing potential for the group is pretty garbo. It's not an Archtype designed for that and you can tell. So don't get suckered into being told you have to heal if you are a cleric/DA cause it's not going to be pretty if you try. You are, for lack of better word, DPS. I wouldn't argue that you are a GREAT DPS, but that's the role DA takes in it's current form. DPS with some debuffing splashed in and self-heal. You could potentially be an off-healer or an alternate Res-bot, but you wont be keeping whole raid parties alive anytime soon.

Great feedback. One question, how did you deal with large groups of mobs if you didn't use the inflict spells?

As for Harm, it probably requires Enlarge to be useful offensively. One big problem is also that it can't take maximize and has mcl 15, which are big drawbacks.

[Xezom]

Great feedback. One question, how did you deal with large groups of mobs if you didn't use the inflict spells?

As for Harm, it probably requires Enlarge to be useful offensively. One big problem is also that it can't take maximize and has mcl 15, which are big drawbacks.

Bane, the spell, has a standard AoE so clustered groups of enemies can be hit en masse with it. Prayer is also AoE, and while I wouldn’t recommend doing your Leroy Jenkins impression with it, it works for dealing with melee groups that rush you. That said, the damage on this last preview was lacking so it did take a couple rotations/using both Bane SLA and spellbook Bane. I’m hoping with them now getting the damaging meta-magics that’ll help with taking out the trash.

Ultimately, you are right that this tree is most definitely single target focused (especially death domain version) but it at least has a couple tools for groups. Later game undead groups can be thinned via Undeath to Death. You can also splash DD for a couple SLAs just to fill the casting rotation gaps, just be aware that the later the game you get, the less effective they’ll become (standard MCL 10-15 issues we are all too familiar with).

[Lanttanno]

I love the curse based aspect of the tree and the fact that it supports ranged melee and casters, but it's just missing options at this stage. Suggestions:


Make the curse damage evil, and make it apply to everything not just undead.
Give an SLA copy of the corrupted fire blast (Ravenloft runearm) that deals evil damage and applies curse.
Make unholy blight also apply curse.
Give a multiselector that makes it so cursed targets are also debuffed with: reduced MRR, reduced PRR, vulnerability, reduced damage, or removed negative damage immunity.
Add some unique favored weapons that are less 'righteous' and more 'vicious' like axes, shuriken, picks, khopesh etc.


The added favored weapon also gives some support to multi-classing which would be great (please keep it low in the tree), for example, it would make a pally shuriken thrower a possibility. The extra damage on curses would work well with shiradi poison stance which would be kinda cool for ranged builds and shiradi casters.

[lain5246]

The problem with this is that the tree doesn't have a way to stop healing undead npcs. I don't think there is a negative aura in the game that doesn't also hit npcs?

there is as the death auras and warlock aura does not heal undead.

[Kasinata]

Radiant Servant - Improved Turning: You count as 1/2/3 levels higher when turning undead. This increases the maximum level of creature you can turn and also increases the total number of hit dice you can turn.
In addition, you add an additional 2/4/6 to the number of hit dice you can turn

Dark Apostate - Enhanced Turning: +2/4/6 Turn Undead charges

guess who's is better...

id rather have +3 hit dice and turn level, than +6 charges.

[Kasinata]

to be visually consistent
id swap the spell animations the DA uses

bane successfully did this making a kind of dark explosion

prayer looks wrong, is currently using holy smites animation, can we swap it for unholy blights animation instead?

[DRoark]

Radiant Servant - Improved Turning: You count as 1/2/3 levels higher when turning undead. This increases the maximum level of creature you can turn and also increases the total number of hit dice you can turn.
In addition, you add an additional 2/4/6 to the number of hit dice you can turn

Dark Apostate - Enhanced Turning: +2/4/6 Turn Undead charges

guess who's is better...

id rather have +3 hit dice and turn level, than +6 charges.

Turn Undead should have been an AOE DC effect years ago. Instead of still using turn levels, HD, and "charges", they really should have made it a Clerical version of EIN.
They could then have just added more targets or range, reduced cooldown, and a DC bonus. It would place it in line with current skills, and made it more game-friendly.

[ShadowFlash]

So how should DA fit in to "Turn Undead" strength?
Taken in a vacuum, Morning Lord/Cleric/RS/Death Domain/EA is still top as far as I can math... but there's a lot of practicality involved there...
DA gets the Turn charges Enhancement, and to be fair it's a 2/4/6 which is nice enough. But this still seems like a remnant from Preview 1, where the Bestow Curse was AOE and powered by turns. RS being "better" at turning than DA isn't really a bad thing but... considering Death Domain is the niche for that sort of "flavor" build, the tree encouraging the death domain being weaker is a tough sell.

The only way around it I can see, is tie the 3rd rank of DA's


Enhanced Turning: +2/4/6 Turn Undead charges.


to the 3rd rank of EA's
Bane of Undeath: You gain the Turn Undead feat. +1/2/3 uses of Turn Undead. Rank 3: If you have the Improved Turning feat, +3 to Effective Level for Turn Undead, +3 to Maximum Hit Dice for Turn Undead, and +3 Hit Die for Turn Undead.

And let them stack... That would require the Feat Penalty of Improved Turning, to embrace the Flavor, which almost no one will actually do, but still give an "uber" for that mechanic. I mean... even at worst abuse, it wouldn't be breaking in any realistic way. Going DA right now just doesn't really provide any incentive to care about turning uses. That 3rd rank bonus would at least give a flavor build reason... and a kinda powerful one.

edit: to be fair, I'd give +2's stacking on Rank 3 for Enhanced Turning to compensate for the extra charges. Whatever the reason for "gaining" the turn undead feat and +3 from EA is, it would still be better value for epic destinies. That solves a lot of balance problems. RS damage to undead vs DA.. morninglord bonuses... etc.. I think the math works. If you want to go flavor max turn, then the only way to do it is WITHOUT any "on turn bonuses" except against undead. I think that's fair.

[Kasinata]

I was trying it in the last month before this update
Without impacting my main spell DC & wisdom at all
Got charisma over 60 at lvl 32
Sacred Helm / chainmail coif for turn bonuses
Exalted angel & RS death domain enhance turn feat, the full works
And gave it a go
It's a somewhat akward clunky bizarre ability but

It appeared to instakill 1-4 trash undead per turn, or stun the ones with deathblock (typically champions) and stun them for a good long time.

Tested on reaper 10 rl quests
Cos there's no difference in hit dice from R1 to r10
Tested in Dino raid normal and hard
Obviously wiped quests like the wizard king

Compared to other instakill spells, and their cool downs
Weird, wail of the banshee, implosion, circle of death
Or single target ones

It's doing ok for an ability with no cool down and somewhat longer than touch range

It made the instakill cleric fun, cos with slay living, destruction, implosion, undeath to death and then turn.
It's like a complete set then cos it gets the undead too
Which is just kinda nice to play