Update 56 Preview 3: Sacred Fist Archetype

[Lynnabel]

Howdy all! Please be sure to check out both the Producer's Letter (https://www.ddo.com/news/ddo-producers-letter-august-2022) and the Archetype Overview page (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533846-Update-56-Preview-3-Archetype-Overview?p=6535514#post6535514) before diving in here :)

Sacred Fist is a Paladin Archetype, joining Stormsinger and Dark Apostate as the first wave of 3 Archetypes.

Changes from Base Class
Feats:
Added:
Armor Class Bonus: (1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 20) This version scales off of Charisma instead of Wisdom. If you are part-monk this will use the highest of Cha or Wis.

Flurry of Blows (1)

Unarmed Strike (1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20)

Evasion (2) (note: they do not get Improved evasion except as a t5 in the Sacred Fist tree.)

Path of Light (1) This is the Handwraps deity feat. As with all deity feats it grants proficiency with its weapon (in this case Handwraps). It is automatically granted rather than being chosen during feat selection.

Divine Dream (6) This is the level 6 "special" deity feat. It makes you considered to be in Heavy Armor while centered for the purposes of the Sacred Defender tree. This does NOT let you be centered in heavy! It is automatically granted rather than being chosen during feat selection.

Removed:
Sacred Fist Paladins do not gain Shield, Armor, or Martial Weapon Proficiency of any kind. Note that because they get the Path of Light this means they can use Handwraps!

Spellbook:
Level 1:
Added: Ki Bolt. Fire a bolt of pure Ki towards enemies. Deals 1d6 Fire and 1d4 Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. Note that this spell has been adjusted for playability for this Archetype and Henshin Mystic will also see this increased damage! Cost: 10 Ki
Removed: n/a

Level 2:
Added: Sacred Flame Empowerment. Upon cast, you are empowered by holy magic, granting you +3 Sacred Fist Dice and allowing your critical hits to deal 1d20 Bane damage per Sacred Fist Dice, scaling with 100% of your Melee Power. Cost: 18 Ki, Duration: 20 seconds
Removed: n/a

Level 3:
Added: Incinerating Wave: Creates an incinerating wave of ki fire. Deals 1d6+3 fire and force damage per caster level to targets within the wall, scaling with 300% Melee Power. Note that this spell has been adjusted for playability for this Archetype and Henshin Mystic will also see this increased damage! Cost: 18 Ki
Removed: n/a

Level 4:
Added: Ki Explosion: Waves of fire emanate from your body, dealing 1d6 per Sacred Fist Dice in Fire, Light, and Force damage to enemies in your vicinity, scaling with 200% Melee Power. For 20 seconds after you cast this spell, you benefit from Fire Shield: Hot, which prevents 50% of your incoming Fire damage and deals a small amount of Fire damage to attackers that strike you in melee. Cost: 30 Ki
Removed: n/a

Skills:
None for this Archetype.

Misc Class Attributes:
Ki Ability: Charisma

Ki Progression: Monk

Note: If you are part-monk (which uses Wisdom for ki), the Ki system will ever so politely take the highest of those modifiers. So don't worry that you'll end up wis-based if you multiclass.

Past Life
Sacred Fist: +5 Healing Amp and +5 Pos Spellpower per stack

New Tree: Sacred Fist
Replaces Knight of the Chalice

Themes: Punch paladin! Burn enemies with your sacred fists.

Cores:


Core 1: Sacred Flame: Toggle: Your melee attacks while centered deal an extra 1d6 Fire damage, scaling with 200% Melee Power. Each core ability in this tree grants you +5 Healing Amplification and +5 Positive Spellpower.
Core 3: +1 Saves and AC. +1 Sacred Flame dice. Your weapons while using Sacred Flame now bypass Lawful + Good DR.
Core 6: +1 Saves and AC. +1 Sacred Flame dice. Gain +3 Remove Disease Charges and your Remove Disease now applies Greater Restoration to your target.
Core 12: +1 Saves and AC. +1 Sacred Flame dice. You gain Immunity to Energy Drain.
Core 18: +1 Saves and AC. +1 Sacred Flame dice. When you use Turn Undead, you and nearby allies gain +1 Ki on hit and +3 Ki on crit for 20 seconds.
Core 20: +4 Charisma, +3 Saves, +1 Sacred Flame dice. +10 Melee Power. +1 W with Weapons. You absorb 25% of all Fire damage.


Tier 1:

Sacred Strike I: +1 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons.
Extra Smite: +2/4/6 bonus to Smite Evil.
Disciple of the Fist: +1/2/3 Heal, Concentration, and Intimidate. Rank 3: You gain +1 Reflex saving throws.
Deft Strikes: You gain +3/6/10% chance to make offhand attacks while centered.
Ki Shout: Ki Activate: Intimidates nearby enemies, encouraging them to attack you. This ability uses your Concentration skill, and shares a cooldown with the Intimidate skill. (Activation Cost: 5 Ki. Cooldown: 6 seconds)


Tier 2:

Sacred Strike II: +2 to hit and +1 to damage with Favored Weapons.
Sacred Whirlwind: Make a sweeping attack against all nearby enemies for +3[W] damage. Shares a cooldown with the Cleave feat. Cooldown: 5 seconds. Cost: 12 Ki
Critical Mastery: +1/2/3 to confirm critical hits and critical hit damage
Fast Movement: You run 1% faster for each of your Paladin levels.
Action Boost: Doublestrike: Activate to gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds.


Tier 3:

Sacred Strike III: +1 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons.
Sacred Smite: An improved smite that adds +1/2/3 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and +1/2/3 to your weapon's critical threat range. In addition, this applies 1d2 stacks of Armor Destruction and 1d2 Stacks of Vulnerability unless the enemy makes a Fort Save (DC 10+Cha Mod+Sunder bonuses). Cost: 15 Ki (note: this is a Light ki melee attack)
Light of Hope: +1 Sacred Flame dice. Your Sacred Flame toggle now allows you to strike Incorporeal enemies as if you had Ghost Touch.
Instinctive Defense: You take 5/10/15% less extra damage when struck while helpless.
+1 Str / Cha


Tier 4:

Sacred Strike IV: +2 to hit and +1 damage with Favored Weapons.
Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. (Antireq Tempest + Swash Deflect Arrows)
Light of Glory: +1 Sacred Flame dice. Your Sacred Flame damage is now Light instead of Fire.
Iron Skin: While centered, you gain an additional 5/10/15 PRR.
+1 Str / Cha



Tier 5:

Sacred Strike V: +3 to hit and damage with Favored Weapons, +10 Melee power.
Evasive Dance: Improves your Evasion ability so on a failed Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you only take 85/70/50% damage.
Avenging Whirlwind: Make a sweeping martial arts attack against all nearby enemies for +5(W) damage. Damaged enemies gain one stack of Vulnerability. Shares its cooldown with the Great Cleave feat. Cost: 18 Ki
Violence Begets Violence: While Centered, when an opponent misses you in melee, you gain +1 critical threat range for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 5 times and is reset if you critically hit.
Divine Strike: You gain On Vorpal: Stun any Demons or Devils with no save for 3 seconds.


Added Tree: Radiant Servant
Replaces Vanguard

Changes from base Radiant Servant: All things that say "Cleric Level" now work off Paladin Level.[/QUOTE]

Bugfixes/Changes from Previous Lamannia:

Sacred Fist dice are now in the Epic Elemental Dice feat
Whirling Steel Strike may now be taken by Paladins
Base Paladin may no longer erroneously access the new Ki Spells
Path of Light level 6 feat now works while dual-wielding and being centered
Radiant Servant Tree now says "paladin levels" instead of cleric levels in its tooltips
Incinerating Wave now scales correctly (this is a pretty huge buff to Henshin, yay!)
Fixed that one sickle to be centering correctly
removed saving throw from Incinerating Wave and Ki Bolt



Things that are NOT in this preview but are happening for this release:
Whirlwind Attack is being updated! It is now Whirlwind Attack: Make a martial arts attack that hits all enemies in an area twice. Requires BAB 4 and the feat Mobility. (note: this now hits all enemies the same amount of times regardless of combat style)

[Komradkillingmachine]

Still no Divine Might I see.

Such a shame, this could've been used by all types of players and not just relegated to memers and flavorers.

[Black_Ninja]

Things that are NOT in this preview but are happening for this release:
Whirlwind Attack is being updated! It is now Whirlwind Attack: Make a martial arts attack that hits all enemies in an area twice. Requires BAB 4 and the feat Mobility. (note: this now hits all enemies the same amount of times regardless of combat style)[/COLOR]

This makes me so happy.

[misterski]

This makes me so happy.

No longer requiring a useless feat like combat expertise to get whirlwind???? Yes please!

[Nickodeamous]

Things that are NOT in this preview but are happening for this release:
Whirlwind Attack is being updated! It is now Whirlwind Attack: Make a martial arts attack that hits all enemies in an area twice. Requires BAB 4 and the feat Mobility. (note: this now hits all enemies the same amount of times regardless of combat style)

Lynnabel for President. Thank you so much for hearing us!!!

You rock!!

Nico

[askrj1]

Repeating some things from the last thread:

Ki shout has no place here. Paladins get intim as a class skill and are natively cha-oriented, Ki shout is not going to perform better even if it wasn't wonky. You said you don't want it just be a copy of monk, why do we need this copy of a monk ability that has no use here? Perhaps replace with some MRR cap here - also mentioned before cloth martial is sorely missing MRR with more non-evadable magical damage nowadays and paladins fill the cloth cap extremely trivially.

Sacred Strike IV. Paladins are pretty feat starved, any chance we can get plowshares here like how KOTC gets Knight's Training? I don't think this is too much to ask for.

EDIT: Just messed with the smites again, they're still labelled as exalted smite, I assume this is just a tooltip thing. The light ki attack part though... SacFists that don't multi with monk will have no use of this feature since they do not get access to finishers?

[misterski]

Repeating some things from the last thread:

Ki shout has no place here. Paladins get intim as a class skill and are natively cha-oriented, Ki shout is not going to perform better even if it wasn't wonky. You said you don't want it just be a copy of monk, why do we need this copy of a monk ability that has no use here? Perhaps replace with some MRR cap here - also mentioned before cloth martial is sorely missing MRR with more non-evadable magical damage nowadays and paladins fill the cloth cap extremely trivially.

Sacred Strike IV. Paladins are pretty feat starved, any chance we can get plowshares here like how KOTC gets Knight's Training? I don't think this is too much to ask for.

Don't have time to check on in-game yet, but if the smites still use the awful bare hand slap could we at least get a cosmetic makeover even if it doesn't fold into the attack chain?

Intimidate is single target, ki shout can affect multiple targets.

[askrj1]

Intimidate is single target, ki shout can affect multiple targets.

I have no idea where you got that impression because I'm pretty sure intimidate works in an area when I have an active tank on live and does not require an enemy targeted to activate. Every time I hit the skill anything that's affected by intim comes to me within a radius.

[Mindos]

Whirlwind Attack is being updated! It is now Whirlwind Attack: Make a martial arts attack that hits all enemies in an area twice. Requires BAB 4 and the feat Mobility. (note: this now hits all enemies the same amount of times regardless of combat style)

Is the animation any better? It seemed to be quicker DPS wise (especially if you had any strikethrough at all) to just go target to target and NOT use Whirlwind Attack as it was 1. Slow, and 2. Slow to attack again after using it.

[Steelstar]

Is the animation any better? It seemed to be quicker DPS wise (especially if you had any strikethrough at all) to just go target to target and NOT use Whirlwind Attack as it was 1. Slow, and 2. Slow to attack again after using it.

It's the same animation as before, but we've eliminated most of the gap between when the animation finished and when you are allowed to attack again; it should be significantly smoother and somewhat shorter overall. And if you're any build that has Strikethrough, this now hits twice at 4[w] where before it only hit once at 4[w], so it should be significantly better than before.

(This wasn't in the notes at all because I finished it about 90 seconds ago).

[TPICKRELL]

I have no idea where you got that impression because I'm pretty sure intimidate works in an area when I have an active tank on live and does not require an enemy targeted to activate. Every time I hit the skill anything that's affected by intim comes to me within a radius.

As some one who tanks more than I'd like, I can absolutely confirm that Intimidate is multi target.

[Komradkillingmachine]

It's the same animation as before, but we've eliminated most of the gap between when the animation finished and when you are allowed to attack again; it should be significantly smoother and somewhat shorter overall. And if you're any build that has Strikethrough, this now hits twice at 4[w] where before it only hit once at 4[w], so it should be significantly better than before.

(This wasn't in the notes at all because I finished it about 90 seconds ago).

Finally, some good news! Thanks a lot.

[TPICKRELL]

Without reasonable access to Divine Might or some similar battle trance, this will move from something interesting to play into a 3 life slog to get the healing amp past lives then never touch again.

[Willan]

It's the same animation as before, but we've eliminated most of the gap between when the animation finished and when you are allowed to attack again; it should be significantly smoother and somewhat shorter overall. And if you're any build that has Strikethrough, this now hits twice at 4[w] where before it only hit once at 4[w], so it should be significantly better than before.

(This wasn't in the notes at all because I finished it about 90 seconds ago).

Does the offhand hit as well now? Can it doublestrike?

Any chance to make all cleaves double attack and offhand strike?

[Nickodeamous]

It's the same animation as before, but we've eliminated most of the gap between when the animation finished and when you are allowed to attack again; it should be significantly smoother and somewhat shorter overall. And if you're any build that has Strikethrough, this now hits twice at 4[w] where before it only hit once at 4[w], so it should be significantly better than before.

(This wasn't in the notes at all because I finished it about 90 seconds ago).

Fantastic! Its been a while since I started posting about WWA and delays in attack animation, and I wanted to say thank you for the improvement!! This was very much needed for my handwrap monk. also, 1 less feat :)

Thank you Devs!l!
Nico

[Steelstar]

Does the offhand hit as well now? Can it doublestrike?


No on offhand, yes on Doublestrike (each of the two hits can independently Doublestrike).

[TPICKRELL]

...
Things that are NOT in this preview but are happening for this release:
Whirlwind Attack is being updated! It is now Whirlwind Attack: Make a martial arts attack that hits all enemies in an area twice. Requires BAB 4 and the feat Mobility. (note: this now hits all enemies the same amount of times regardless of combat style)

Can a Dev confirm that the way this is written about feat requirements is correct. Are spring attack and combat expertise being dropped from the requirements? If so this is a very good change.

Also, can you all find a different color for changes? Some of us who are colorblind/partially colorblind can barely see a difference between the base font and the changed font color here.

[Steelstar]

Can a Dev confirm that the way this is written about feat requirements is correct. Are spring attack and combat expertise being dropped from the requirements? If so this is a very good change.

Correct.

[droid327]

Yeah I still think its going to be handcuffed with /1 Fvs/1 Monk...

Lack of Divine Might is just too much of a drawback for a TWF build (which has no other stat-to-dmg bonuses baked in), and Sun Stance for bonus Ki gen. TWFx3 Dodge/Mob/WWA IC:B S2P, plus Precision if Human

S2P in the second core or Tier 3 seems wholly appropriate and commensurate with similar autogrants in KotC and Thief-Acro. Pal still too feat-starved, literally cant fit it and WWA if you're pure Fist

Whirlwind Attack change is going to be the take-home here...bigger gamechanger than the whole tree itself...

Also, again, Fire Shield Hot prevents cold, not fire, damage

[misterski]

Yeah I still think its going to be handcuffed with /1 Fvs/1 Monk...

Lack of Divine Might is just too much of a drawback for a TWF build (which has no other stat-to-dmg bonuses baked in), and Sun Stance for bonus Ki gen. TWFx3 Dodge/Mob/WWA IC:B S2P, plus Precision if Human

S2P in the second core or Tier 3 seems wholly appropriate and commensurate with similar autogrants in KotC and Thief-Acro. Pal still too feat-starved, literally cant fit it and WWA if you're pure Fist

Whirlwind Attack change is going to be the take-home here...bigger gamechanger than the whole tree itself...

Also, again, Fire Shield Hot prevents cold, not fire, damage

It's a little baffling that they replaced KoTC for this archetype and made the cores similar to KoTC but then didn't put the trance from KoTC in. The feat starvation of paladins in general is just icing on the cake. 2 levels of monk can help if taken early due to the bonus monk feats at levels 1 and 2, but that won't help pure Sacred Fists.

Drop Violence Begets Violence since it's so bad and add Divine Might to the tree, there solved.

[Propane]

What about Improved Martial Arts being unlocked with something other than Monk 12?
(if I missed this update somewhere - TIA for pointing it out!)

[LittleLexi]

This tree is just not making it for me. Some if its better abilities are just copy/pasted stuff from KOTC. So much for that whole "No significant overlap with existing character options" baloney as justification for doing these Archetypes :rolleyes:

And then it has these other abilities like Ki bolt and Incinerating Wave that just suck(also from an already existing enhancement tree. How novel...). They need to do more damage, or provide more utility.

I still don't know why it's getting Radiant Servant(a tree that needs help anyway). Seems very tacked on.

Then you have the fact that handwrap Monks have been hit with a few nerfs over the years; making playing one less appealing and interesting. I still haven't noticed any performance increase since the doublestrike/doubleshot...alterations(to put it kindly) that have made DDO less fun for me overall...

This all could be much more thrilling if it was a Sun Soul or Dark Moon monk tree. Or both!

[Lynnabel]

This tree is just not making it for me. Some if its better abilities are just copy/pasted stuff from KOTC. So much for that whole "No significant overlap with existing character options" baloney as justification for doing these Archetypes :rolleyes:

That's not nor has ever been one of our stated goals for trying out Archetypes :) If you'd like to read more about why we're giving this feature a shot, feel free to check out the Archetype Overview page (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533846-Update-56-Preview-3-Archetype-Overview) which may answer a few of your questions.

As an aside, Ki Bolt and Wave got buffed pretty hard by this pass - both lost their saving throws and Wave got appropriate dice and scaling. I encourage you to try them out on Lamannia.

[Caarb]

As an aside, Ki Bolt and Wave got buffed pretty hard by this pass - both lost their saving throws and Wave got appropriate dice and scaling. I encourage you to try them out on Lamannia.

Still not worth the button press in heroics and is less damage than auto-attack in epics.

[Ipsum]

The dice feel like they are in a pretty good place in heroics. The dice are more or less irrelevant in epics but that seems ok since crit scaling takes over by then.

[misterski]

Still not worth the button press in heroics and is less damage than auto-attack in epics.

And this was already known with Henshin Mystic so it shouldn't be news to the devs.

[Havocthedemon]

If we really aren’t going to get divine might in place of the useless double strike boost can we at least change that to haste boost instead? Everyone uses the reaper boost so that is actually just garbage and mind as well be nothing.

[toapat]

That's not nor has ever been one of our stated goals for trying out Archetypes :) If you'd like to read more about why we're giving this feature a shot, feel free to check out the Archetype Overview page (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533846-Update-56-Preview-3-Archetype-Overview) which may answer a few of your questions.

As an aside, Ki Bolt and Wave got buffed pretty hard by this pass - both lost their saving throws and Wave got appropriate dice and scaling. I encourage you to try them out on Lamannia.

even with the reversion to bring them back in line with live, or the buff to remove their saves, Kibolt and Incineration Wave do comparable damage per cast, to one tick of Consecration's Crusade. Which i think everyone would agree with me when i say that the 1d3 Fire + 1d3 Good + 1 Positive Healing damage per character level of Consecration is all bonus upside on the 18 seconds/90% uptime of the Crusade 10% increased Melee and Ranged damage dealt buff.

Ki Explosion is, at least, now fast enough to be cast if quickened, however all 3 spells should be granted flat dice damage to their scaling at least, with an initial test to be:

Ki Bolt: 1d6+2 Fire and 1d4+2 Force damage per caster level

Incineration Wave: 1d6+5 Fire and Force damage per caster level ~~ Actually im not sure about this one, it was looking underwhelming running around saltmarsh exploreable but seeing it as 1d6+3 per CL im now doubting what i saw, and need to test more. HOWEVER Both Ki Bolt and Incineration Wave are broken by Epic Defensive Fighting, and Wave is actually worse off now since it cant deal any damage if EDF is on when at least last week it did exactly 1 tick of damage

Ki Explosion: Deals 1d6+7 Fire, Light, and Force damage per Sacred Flame Die.

Sacred Flame Attunement: I Would like this spell to go to 24+6*cl Seconds per cast, OR to go to +1 sacred flame die per 3 caster levels, Or even further, fom its current implementation, it gives +2 Sacred Flame dice for 24+6*cl seconds AND increases with your fire spellpower.

Edit: I would also like if in Divine Crusader: Crusade's tooltip was corrected to match its effects, or its effects be brought into line with the tooltip, ATM Crusade tells me in the buff that it doesnt help casters but the tooltip says it does, and the damage is stated to be fire and light damage that scales with fire spellpower, however Crusade does Fire and Good damage, and the Good damage does not scale with Fire, light, Alignment, or Positive spellpower

[LittleLexi]

That's not nor has ever been one of our stated goals for trying out Archetypes :) If you'd like to read more about why we're giving this feature a shot, feel free to check out the Archetype Overview page (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533846-Update-56-Preview-3-Archetype-Overview) which may answer a few of your questions.

As an aside, Ki Bolt and Wave got buffed pretty hard by this pass - both lost their saving throws and Wave got appropriate dice and scaling. I encourage you to try them out on Lamannia.

So from that thread– one of the reasons for doing Archetypes, as opposed to brand new classes(Which could take many forms: Iconics, Prestiges etc.)– is this statement: "We'd never be able to make Class 16 without significant overlap with existing character options, something that feels bad from a design perspective and worse from a player perspective."

But overlap with existing character options is what you've ended up doing anyways, with Sacred Fist being a smattering of KOTC and Henshin Mystic(to the point where some of the abilities are, or nearly identical). Stormsinger is an even worse offender, with it getting Sonic Blast, Shout, Reverberate, and Horn of Thunder SLA's– all of which are already present in an existing Bard tree. That's pretty feelsbad, in my view. It diminishes both trees, rather than making each stand out as their own thing, and making the player who invests in them feel special(different) for having done so. All of its other spells are things that, again, already exist in DDO. So you are "retreading old ground" there too.

I get that it's easier on you guys. That it takes less work than coming up with new abilities, art, animations, icons etc. But I would be lying if I said repurposed abilities here, there, and everywhere, are as joy-inducing as actual new stuff to play with. And it worries me that you(SSG) are taking this minimalist approach to design in DDO now, and for the future; particularly when I know you have the potential for the incredible. I like you guys(and your work) a whole lot better when you aim for the stars(Cloaks, Mounts, Ravenloft, S/S/S rework)– rather than when it seems you are being tethered to the ground, like with these Archetypes.

Between that, the awkward locking out of other enhancement trees, and the Archetype trees themselves in their current iterations– I have to be honest and say these Archetypes are a swing and a miss thus far. Not that it couldn't work. But it feels like a very choppy, and inelegant system thus far. One that perhaps needs more refining before being pushed out in the next update.

I still want you to know that I appreciate you and the team tremendously :)

[Dilgar]

I really hate to say it, but this archetype feels really uninspired. What is the design goal with it? It it really just Paladin with handwraps? Why remove knight of the chalice but then just copy/paste most of the tree into the new one?

If the goal was to make something interesting, why not lean more heavily into that fire subtheme? Remove the conversion of light damage (that just makes it kotc) and add some more dice to compensate for fire being a worse element. Throw some of the better fire spells into the spell/ki book. Heck, you could even throw fire savant on as a tree instead of radiant servant.

I'm not saying this would actually be good in any way, but just using it as a quick example of something that would at least be interesting. I'm really disappointed with how much this tree borrows from kotc without really adding anything new or unique.

[Seph1roth5]

Devs really don't want to give us divine might here, and don't seem to care that the vast majority looks at the tree and says "Oh, no divine might..." Also no charisma to hit and damage. And people wonder why people don't think they play the game?

A super simple solution is to NOT REPLACE KoTC here. You'd have to ditch all the copy/pasted abilities too, or maybe not (looking at you stormsinger), but that would let people actually play sacred fist as a melee build.

Suggestion: Take out the sacred fist enhancements stolen from KoTC, replace them with some good stuff from radiant servant, then have Sacred Fist replace Vanguard and let us play around with Stalwart defender/KoTC.

Also, paladins are super spell slot starved, any way to make this archetype get more slots? Otherwise, again, super crippling it's melee-ability.

[ChristopHilljr]

Please consider adding the battle trance. This tree is so ap heavy and the build is feat starved. I don't understand the reasoning here or why all the voices asking for this seem to be echoing into the ether.

[QuantumFX]

I play a lot of Paladin and Monk on my main characters, and I really want to like this archetype. I'm sorry that this will feel like a bunch of negativity, but this archetype feels like the worst of both worlds.

The archetype forces you into the worst melee combat style in the game (Handwraps), and you also lose the consolation prizes of Stunning Fist and Fists of Light. There's also no "keyboard dance". When I play my THF paladin, there's a playstyle of keeping up the short term buffs (Prayer/Divine Might) and cycling between Exalted Smite, Holy Retribution, Consecrate, Avenging Cleave and Exalted Cleave. On my Henshin Mystic, I play with Cauldron, Quick Strike, Fists of Light, the Falconry Strikes and Unbalancing Strike. The Sacred Fist is Knight of the Chalice but with less to do thanks to the loss of the fun instakill cleave and forcing smites to be saved for boss fights.

The lack of a meaningful Smite Evil regen (Like Holy Retribution) makes even a fully buffed Divine Crusader Exalted Smite feel bad. Perhaps this archetype could benefit by dropping the charge mechanic for Smite Evil and just make it a ki strike? Or maybe allow Avenging/Exalted Whirlwind to regen smites?

Ki bolt. Well, most of the level 1 paladin spells are worthless, what's one more?

Sacred Flame Empowerment feels like a sad excuse for an action boost. It either needs to lean into that, and drop the casting animation, or give it a duration similar to Divine Favor. Right now it feels pointless to cast because you can't use it before a fight, and thanks to the casting animation it causes you to lose DPS in a fight.

Incinerating Wave. You need to be at point blank range to use this, and it's still better to just hold down your auto attack key instead. Sorry, it's been like that forever on Henshin Mystic, and Sacred Fist ain't helping. You've tried buffing the damage via dice and melee power, perhaps it would be better to completely rethink this one? Maybe a cleave that unleashed an omnidirectional wave? Something that makes the wave portion a secondary benefit could turn this around. Edit: Yes, I tried Incinerating Wave on lammaland on a level 32 character. It was extremely underwhelming.

I also feel that if you don't want to make this archetype into a DPS class, you have a lot of room to make it an indestructible cockroach tank build instead. Give sacred armor mastery a multiselector that increases dodge cap instead. Give Sacred Shield Mastery a multiselector for Sacred Two Weapon Defense. Give us options for "Agile Defense" (+2/4/6 DEX), "Prudent Defense" (+2/4/6 WIS), and "Mystical Defense" (+10/20/30 MRR cap) in the Greater Sacred Defense choices.

Also, what's up with "Instinctive Defense" being in 2 trees? It seems like a waste of enhancement tree real estate.

[Tepi]

I still don't understand why you'd go to the effort of making this paladin variation and not really change the playstyle at all. Sorry if I'm being negative but I feel you had a chance to really play into the holy warrior aspect of paladin, trading off some defense for more attack for the more offense orientated paladin players but instead we argueably lose offense to gain more.. healing? Radiant servant fits fine thematically, but it isn't going to make paladin a healer, since the biggest limitation will always be cure spell selection and paladin doesn't have the feats to really maximise the burst/aura without giving up too much in the way of damage, at which point why be a Sacred Fist at all? Warpriest honestly would fit a lot better and we'd get back divine might. Paladin has always been my favourite class, but has always seemed kinda lazy too. I mean if you consider most of the new stuff in the Sacred Fist tree compared to the KOTC tree, you're giving up healing amp and powerful attacks for what? Also putting defense stuff into the Sacred Fist tree makes little sense when paladins have an entire tree dedicated to it.

I love the game and appreciate the work the developers put in but as it stands, I really feel like this variation is worse than both the base paladin and also worse than a paladin/monk build you can already make. Sure, you can go pure with this but that seems a little unrealistic given that the capstone doesn't make up for the things you're losing from base paladin and have to reclaim.

[Kielbasa]

That's not nor has ever been one of our stated goals for trying out Archetypes :) If you'd like to read more about why we're giving this feature a shot, feel free to check out the Archetype Overview page (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533846-Update-56-Preview-3-Archetype-Overview) which may answer a few of your questions.


I'm all for new ways to play existing classes I hope archetypes are a huge success. I wish Sacred Defender was a bit more inclusive to Sacred Fists being robe users and that Radiant Servant took into account that Paladins do not have 9th level spells and thus need a larger bump to their healing capabilities than a cleric would need from this enhancement tree. In their current state no one will ever run a level 20 sacred fist capstoned sacred defender or radiant servant which would have been a interesting thing to see. There is not enough support for either to work.

[Khurse]

That's not nor has ever been one of our stated goals for trying out Archetypes :) If you'd like to read more about why we're giving this feature a shot, feel free to check out the Archetype Overview page (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533846-Update-56-Preview-3-Archetype-Overview) which may answer a few of your questions.

As an aside, Ki Bolt and Wave got buffed pretty hard by this pass - both lost their saving throws and Wave got appropriate dice and scaling. I encourage you to try them out on Lamannia.

I think people are having a hard time trying to figure out what your (the dev team's) concept or idea is for this archetype.

Stormsinger seems easy

Dark Apostate seems to be a Healer aimed at the revenant tree mentioned a while ago, as well as a damage dealer.

But Sacred Fist seems... odd?

I love the concept of a handwrap using Paladin, I've thought it would be cool since I read the flavor text on Scraps of Enlightenment

I understand why you removed the KoTC tree, KoTC plus the Handwrap abilities in this tree would be... insane. (although fun..)

But the radiant servant tree adds nothing to melee, and isn't really going to be any better than some of the ED's for party healing.
It basically seems like a tree to not spend any points in.

You're adding Henshin Mystic points to a melee tree, but HM is regarded as being so ineffective at melee that even the significant buff you're giving it isn't really encouraging people.
(although I am a huge fan of the Swords to Plowshares buff and the Whirlwind attack being easier to acquire feat wise)

Of course we will have to play around with it,

But Paladin's (like Monk) are already hugely MAD .

I think (as others have said) adding the KoTC Divine Might into Sacred Fist would alleviate a lot of concern, and potentially make this end game viable.
You can still leave the CHarisma to hit and damage in the FI , which will cost the Magical Training feat if you don't want to add it here as well.

Shintao adds 3 or 4 W to wraps, the epic feat adds another, so they're up to 4 or 5 W, SF gets one back from the last core...plus Monks seem to attack faster (this could be a mistake on my part), get extra feats...
As I said, love the concept, but what is it you guys are looking for players to get from this tree?
Right now it seems like a tree designed to do not quite as much damage as a Monk (already one of the lowest melee DPS classes) as well as having the option to spend points in RS and have a mediocre party healing ability.

[Alternative]

Whirlwind attack, yaaaay... Maybe we need a little visualization:

1. dodge
3. mobility
6. whirlwind attack
9. twf
12. itwf
15. gtwf
18. imp crit
? precission/PA
? swords to plowshares
? magical training
? stunning fist (if that's selectable)
? tougness (?)
? metamagics (lol)

[misterski]

Whirlwind attack, yaaaay... Maybe we need a little visualization:

1. dodge
3. mobility
6. whirlwind attack
9. twf
12. itwf
15. gtwf
18. imp crit
? precission/PA
? swords to plowshares
? magical training
? stunning fist (if that's selectable)
? tougness (?)
? metamagics (lol)

Yeah, paladins don't have enough feat slots without bonus feat slots from other classes/races. As for stunning fist, Sacred Flames can choose it. It's only prerequisite is Flurry of Blows which Sacred Flame gets.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Core 20: +4 Charisma, +3 Saves, +1 Sacred Flame dice. +10 Melee Power. +1 W with Weapons. You absorb 25% of all Fire damage.


I'm excited about this archetype and think it has some serious potential when used in conjunction with Epic Destinies. One change I'd like you to consider is the L20 Core. As it is now it seems a little underwhelming. Perhaps use Inquisitive as inspiration? The Inquisitive L20 Core is:+2 to all Ability Scores. +10 Ranged Power. While wielding a Light or Heavy (non-repeating) Crossbow, your Vorpal hits will knock down targets hit on a natural 20 + confirmation for 6 seconds without a saving throw, as a Great Crossbow. In addition, you gain +4 Damage dice with Law on your Side.

Sacred Fist could be changed to +2 to all ability scores (both Paladin and Monk traditionally are multi-stat classes so this fits in thematically anyway) and give an extra 4 Sacred Flame dice instead of 1. The 1(W) given would be equivalent to the no save knockdown given to Inquisitive.

[drathdragon]

i tried a build yesterday.

is it normal that at some point if i get 3 levels of (classic, not sacred fist) paladin those levels are visualized as cleric levels on the character sheet ?

[Lynnabel]

i tried a build yesterday.

is it normal that at some point if i get 3 levels of (classic, not sacred fist) paladin those levels are visualized as cleric levels on the character sheet ?

Not normal! I'd love more information on how you leveled up - were you leveling in the dojo or through a Lesser/Epic Reincarnation? What was your class breakdown?

[Bowser_Koopa]

Just throwing this out there. Rather than Radiant Savant I think it would be interesting to have Enlightened spirit from the warlock tree in here and treat it as if Path of Light is a "pact" and let the class have access to the aura and other parts of Enlightened spirit.

Also I think it would be great if Grand Master of Flowers abilities that state "If you are in X stance the effects are doubled" was updated to include the Path of Light.

[Propane]

Spellbook:
Level 1:
Added: Ki Bolt. Fire a bolt of pure Ki towards enemies. Deals 1d6 Fire and 1d4 Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. Note that this spell has been adjusted for playability for this Archetype and Henshin Mystic will also see this increased damage! Cost: 10 Ki
Removed: n/a

Level 2:
Added: Sacred Flame Empowerment. Upon cast, you are empowered by holy magic, granting you +3 Sacred Fist Dice and allowing your critical hits to deal 1d20 Bane damage per Sacred Fist Dice, scaling with 100% of your Melee Power. Cost: 18 Ki, Duration: 20 seconds
Removed: n/a

Level 3:
Added: Incinerating Wave: Creates an incinerating wave of ki fire. Deals 1d6+3 fire and force damage per caster level to targets within the wall, scaling with 300% Melee Power. Note that this spell has been adjusted for playability for this Archetype and Henshin Mystic will also see this increased damage! Cost: 18 Ki
Removed: n/a

Level 4:
Added: Ki Explosion: Waves of fire emanate from your body, dealing 1d6 per Sacred Fist Dice in Fire, Light, and Force damage to enemies in your vicinity, scaling with 200% Melee Power. For 20 seconds after you cast this spell, you benefit from Fire Shield: Hot, which prevents 50% of your incoming Fire damage and deals a small amount of Fire damage to attackers that strike you in melee. Cost: 30 Ki


Spell slots are really tight for Pallys - can we have these included elsewhere without taking up spell slots?

Adding 1 to each Core (1-4)
Adding 1 to each Tier of Sacred Strike (1-4)
Granting at levels one at levels: 2 6, 8, 12

[Lynnabel]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:

Whirlwind Attack is looking pretty sharp (thanks Steelstar!) and now fits pretty seamlessly into your attack chain - it scales with attack speed correctly now and you're released as soon as its done to your next attack. We've also fixed a variety of bugs with its animations and animation speed across all combat styles. With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W. Furthermore, we're adjusting Great Cleave up to 4W. The feats end up as fun mirrors of each other, requirements wise:

Great Cleave requires +4 BAB, Cleave, Power Attack, STR 13+ (because PA). 1 hit, 4W.
New Whirlwind requires +4 BAB, Mobility, Dodge, DEX 13+ (because Dodge). 2 hits, 2W each.

Pretty neat, eh? :)

What this means for Sacred Fist is that the Exalted Whirlwind ability is going to move to 1W for each hit, and keep its cooldown matching Cleave. Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat (rather than Great Cleave), apply 1 stack of Vuln per hit (so 2 total), and be adjusted to 2W for each hit.

We're doing this shuffle to try and move Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack towards some sort of parity, and hopefully this is a good first step.

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

[Tianie]

So, when do we get the Shinto monk tree update, to go along with this.

[Tepi]

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

How come you dropped the light damage and not the force? I mean I guess lore wise force makes more sense, but light kinda fits a bit more thematically, though I cant imagine it will actually make any difference in terms of gameplay. Also Cha to attack and damage is a great addition!

[Willan]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:

Whirlwind Attack is looking pretty sharp (thanks Steelstar!) and now fits pretty seamlessly into your attack chain - it scales with attack speed correctly now and you're released as soon as its done to your next attack. We've also fixed a variety of bugs with its animations and animation speed across all combat styles. With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W. Furthermore, we're adjusting Great Cleave up to 4W. The feats end up as fun mirrors of each other, requirements wise:

Great Cleave requires +4 BAB, Cleave, Power Attack, STR 13+ (because PA). 1 hit, 4W.
New Whirlwind requires +4 BAB, Mobility, Dodge, DEX 13+ (because Dodge). 2 hits, 2W each.

Pretty neat, eh? :)

What this means for Sacred Fist is that the Exalted Whirlwind ability is going to move to 1W for each hit, and keep its cooldown matching Cleave. Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat (rather than Great Cleave), apply 1 stack of Vuln per hit (so 2 total), and be adjusted to 2W for each hit.

We're doing this shuffle to try and move Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack towards some sort of parity, and hopefully this is a good first step.

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!


Is it possible to get offhand and doublestrike to properly apply on all cleave type attacks? That would do a lot close the gap between 2wf and 2hf and make the feats desirable again.

[TPICKRELL]

...

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered.

A Charisma Build in most difficult content will be unable to have a meaningful tactics DC. Except in raids where a Tank is expected, this means that the Charisma build can't protect themselves, and are likely going to be dead, a lot (or hiding in the back letting real dps toons do the heavy lifting).

So, this build has to be Str based Cha as second stat in order to have a meaningful trip or stun. It needs a Cha Trance to be at all effective, not Cha to hit and damage. Without the extra 8-10 DCs from a battle trance, it's really hard to get DCs that are an effective survival tool.

If the SSG goal is to make a flavor only wrap pally, this will be ok. If you want this to be a real option for building a dps toon, it needs access to a Cha battle trance, not just Cha to hit and damage.

[Lynnabel]

Is it possible to get offhand and doublestrike to properly apply on all cleave type attacks? That would do a lot close the gap between 2wf and 2hf and make the feats desirable again.

I believe these do actually work with these abilities. Doublestrike especially so ever since its revamp a few updates ago.

[Lynnabel]

How come you dropped the light damage and not the force? I mean I guess lore wise force makes more sense, but light kinda fits a bit more thematically, though I cant imagine it will actually make any difference in terms of gameplay. Also Cha to attack and damage is a great addition!

I am sticking with Force because I think its makes for a good parity between the 2 existing ki spells, both of which use Fire and Force. That being said, it would be cool if Light of Glory added Light to all 3 of them, so I'm gonna make that happen :P

[jackatthekilns]

Just throwing this out there. Rather than Radiant Savant I think it would be interesting to have Enlightened spirit from the warlock tree in here and treat it as if Path of Light is a "pact" and let the class have access to the aura and other parts of Enlightened spirit.

Also I think it would be great if Grand Master of Flowers abilities that state "If you are in X stance the effects are doubled" was updated to include the Path of Light.

If you don't do this with Sacred Fist, please put this idea on the whiteboard of ideas. Finding another interesting place for an ES or ES mix tree would be a very fun idea.

[Propane]

Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat (rather than Great Cleave), apply 1 stack of Vuln per hit (so 2 total), and be adjusted to 2W for each hit.



This seems awkward - Why not keep it with Great Cleave?

Exalted Whirlwind is currently with Cleave - correct?

For a DEX ish build (needed for two handed fighting) and in robes - you are more likely to want dodge and mobility --> Whirlwind that going the PA/Cleave/Great Cleave route.
This underminds some of the good changes to Whirlwind-
KoTC had the cooldowns correct - IMO.

This tree was lacking DPS, having the combo Avenging, Exalted, Whirlwind feels about right (current have alt on Lamannia with this) - please keep this chain intact-
Otherwise - Exalted should not share a cooldown...

The updates to the Great Cleave and New Whirlwind are great and seemed balance - the mis-matching cool downs are my issue.

[Havocthedemon]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:

Whirlwind Attack is looking pretty sharp (thanks Steelstar!) and now fits pretty seamlessly into your attack chain - it scales with attack speed correctly now and you're released as soon as its done to your next attack. We've also fixed a variety of bugs with its animations and animation speed across all combat styles. With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W. Furthermore, we're adjusting Great Cleave up to 4W. The feats end up as fun mirrors of each other, requirements wise:

Great Cleave requires +4 BAB, Cleave, Power Attack, STR 13+ (because PA). 1 hit, 4W.
New Whirlwind requires +4 BAB, Mobility, Dodge, DEX 13+ (because Dodge). 2 hits, 2W each.

Pretty neat, eh? :)

What this means for Sacred Fist is that the Exalted Whirlwind ability is going to move to 1W for each hit, and keep its cooldown matching Cleave. Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat (rather than Great Cleave), apply 1 stack of Vuln per hit (so 2 total), and be adjusted to 2W for each hit.

We're doing this shuffle to try and move Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack towards some sort of parity, and hopefully this is a good first step.

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!


I’m a little wary of the smaller damage but hopeful that the increased speed and efficiency still makes it good. To be honest, it’s just a cool animation on monk why is why we love it. I just hope it will still be worth using if I’m wasting 3 feats on it. Also, I would wonder if anyone actually uses cleave and great cleave anymore. Like truly, taking those feats. Most thf just swing away and hit everything in front of them anyway, and their “cleave” attacks are really just clickies from enhancements and epic strikes. Does anyone even bother wasting those feat slots?

On the topic of CHA to hit and dmg, I mean 7 ap in the Feydark tree got us that. That was never really the issue, it’s the fact that the other melees get tactics bonuses and pally does not. They don’t have a trance unless they dip into fvs. And again, the double strike boost is just..so bad. Everyone uses the reaper boost which puts you at 100% - what this lacks is a haste boost which causes them to spend points into vistani.

[SocratesBastardSon]

That being said, it would be cool if Light of Glory added Light to all 3 of them, so I'm gonna make that happen :P

I love the idea of making Whirlwind something of a DEX-based cleave, and a feat that now becomes usable for a wider variety of builds.

Any chance Light of Glory could be a toggle? That way players could still choose to use fire for when it is more desirable than light damage, i.e., fire vulnerable creatures. Visuals that match the two types - orange/red vs. white - would be nice too.

Thanks!

[Paxsmickey]

Any chance we could get a divine might trance that costs Ki?

I could see this being done as a level 1 spell (requiring builds trying to dip Sacred Fist at least 4 levels) or making it one of the tier 1 or 2 enhancements in the sacred fist tree.

Additionally, the 50 MRR cap to robes is debilitating to monks and the sacred fist in my opinion. Furthermore, it is wasted that sacred fist gain access to the sacred defender tree and with the level 6 deity feat you count as wearing medium armor for the sacred defender stances, because of the 50 MRR cap.

A suggestion: (for monks), add a +15 MRR cap to the adept/master/grand master of form feats for monks (maybe add +5 MRR cap to the lesser forms so a centered monk has a 100MRR cap base).

For sacred fist: add a MRR cap increase to the sacred defender tree (for sacred fists), add a MRR cap increase to the level 6 deity feat, and/or add a small MRR cap increase to the default Sacred fist levels.

At present, the sacred fist lacks dodge bonuses. I think sacred defender should offer dodge bonuses to compensate for the low MRR cap. I’ve run a 18 Paladin/2 rogue in light armor and a quarter staff and the 100MRR cap was hit very quickly, so even if a centered sacred fist has their MRR cap brought to 100, it’s still too low when the sacred defender tree offers so much MRR that is then wasted on the cap.

Additionally, since sacred fists cannot wield shields, the sacred defender enhancements for shield AC are wasted. I would replace those for the sacred fist with dodge bonuses and/or increasing the %AC bonus from being centered and adding CHA to AC.

Paladins are pretty feat starved, and I think it would help for the sacred fist enhancement tree to offer swords to plowshares as a free feat in tier 4 would be very beneficial (and would be similar to KotC offering Knights Training at the same level).

Have the items that offer X bonus when in Y monk stance been considered with the sacred fist? I understand that we want sacred fist and monks to fill different roles, but I wonder if there may be a way that sacred fist builds can also get some benefit from those bonuses without needing to splash a level of monk. I wonder if maybe the sacred defender tree could offer access to a sacred fist version of the mountain styles. The mountain stance bonuses fit well with what the sacred defender would want to be doing, and by making it a separate stance it would dissuade some players from dipping monk for access to those stance feats, while still giving monks their own niche (in that they can swap freely between the stances, would likely gain better benefits from theirs, etc.).

I like the idea of the smites, but when I tested them as a sacred fist last week the animations felt slow and it appeared to interrupt my attack chain. I’ll try to test again when I get a chance.

Realistically a sacred fist needs a strong DEX score for the TWF chain, which fits well with taking dodge, etc. Has there been any consideration put into giving the sacred fist enhancement tree the reed on the wind attack (the one that requires dodge, deals extra damage, and gives an insight bonus to dodge for several seconds).

[Nickodeamous]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:

Whirlwind Attack is looking pretty sharp (thanks Steelstar!) and now fits pretty seamlessly into your attack chain - it scales with attack speed correctly now and you're released as soon as its done to your next attack. We've also fixed a variety of bugs with its animations and animation speed across all combat styles. With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W. Furthermore, we're adjusting Great Cleave up to 4W. The feats end up as fun mirrors of each other, requirements wise:

Great Cleave requires +4 BAB, Cleave, Power Attack, STR 13+ (because PA). 1 hit, 4W.
New Whirlwind requires +4 BAB, Mobility, Dodge, DEX 13+ (because Dodge). 2 hits, 2W each.

Pretty neat, eh? :)

We're doing this shuffle to try and move Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack towards some sort of parity, and hopefully this is a good first step. !


Thanks for the update. so you are lowering the w's for WWA from 4 to 2. I think this makes sense since now we have less feats to take.

That last sentence kinda confuses me as a monk. I don't want a vanilla cleave attack. As you have it is about good. Please do not dumb it it down/nerf it or remove any features from WWA :)

Thanks,
Nico

[toapat]

I believe these do actually work with these abilities. Doublestrike especially so ever since its revamp a few updates ago.

Doublestrike yes, Offhand strike no. in fact cleaves and Smite Evil are explicitly banned from making offhand attacks. What is further confusing is Smite Evil itself has not significantly changed over time, but at some point between when i first significantly played and when i came back in november, Smite Evil became disallowed from making offhand attacks, presumably specifically when the rework to Glancing Blows and Strikethrough was introduced.

ok back to current testing:

Incinerating wave does ok but slightly underwhelming damage per cast, but has 2 significant issues: Projectile livespan is completely negated by Epic Defensive Fighting, and the Projectile goes in whatever direction it pleases, as i discovered by testrunning a White Plume Mountain to compare against my main.

So yes, i would like to see a wave of testing with Kibolt dealing 1d6+2 and 1d4+2 damage per cl, Incinerating Wave with 1d6+5 x2 per cl, and Ki Explosion dealing 1d6+7 x2 per CL

I would like to see the core 4: Defend against darkness grant Sacred Fist +1 Ki generation on Hit. Right now it feels like i want significantly more Ki generation then i can actually afford between my whirlwinds and wave, and that is before Ki Explosion gets buffed next week which will be the largest investiture available to Sacred Fist per usage.

Radiant Servant's capstone has still not been updated to +2 Wis and Cha

On a purely technical level, Knight of the Chalice should have its slayer of Evil dice updated to the modern standard of bonus elemental dice and added to the Enhanced Elemental Dice feat.

Again purely technical, i would also like to see Sacred Fist gain native proficiency in Kamas and Shurikens, so they arent weirdly nonproficient with half the naturally centering weapons

[Tepi]

Again purely technical, i would also like to see Sacred Fist gain native proficiency in Kamas and Shurikens, so they arent weirdly nonproficient with half the naturally centering weapons

Then they'd have to rename the class to Sacred All Monk Weapons :P

[Eme]

Hi friends, happy Wednesday, quick updates:
With that in mind we're adjusting its W bonus to 2W for both hits from 4W.
Pretty neat, eh? :)
t!

more grim. Been gone since just after the combland update, now can't see me ever coming back, everything that was fun about my monk has finally gone

[elvesunited]

more grim. Been gone since just after the combland update, now can't see me ever coming back, everything that was fun about my monk has finally gone

Huh?

Whirlwind is changing from +4 W 1 hit to +2W 2 hits.

That's ( base multiplier ) x ( base damage ) + 4 x ( base damage ) + all other damage modifiers once.
to
( base multiplier ) x ( base damage ) + 2 x ( base damage ) + all other damage modifiers once twice.

That's still a significant upgrade to whirlwind.

[Nickodeamous]

Huh?

Whirlwind is changing from +4 W 1 hit to +2W 2 hits.

That's ( base multiplier ) x ( base damage ) + 4 x ( base damage ) + all other damage modifiers once.
to
( base multiplier ) x ( base damage ) + 2 x ( base damage ) + all other damage modifiers once twice.

That's still a significant upgrade to whirlwind.

Not for monks, which always had 2 hits. Its a straight up nerf from 4w to 2w. Its a buff for all other classes that take it.

There are 2 shining lights. Many monks have tested and shown that there is a delay of about 1/2 second after the wwa animation. This delay will be taken away with this update so that we can attack right away, so this helps offset the 2w. The other is the fact we can now take sword of plowshares, which increases crit threat range by one, thanks to the feat restrictions being taken away. It works out.

[toapat]

Then they'd have to rename the class to Sacred All Monk Weapons :P

im trying to get the class without feats opened up to a wider variety of valid playstyles.

However, i do want Radiant Servant to grant Magical Training to the paladin, as well as Orbs as Centered Weapons so you can go full ham on the Fullcaster Paladin build at endgame with SWF and Feydark Illusionist

[Lynnabel]

Quick update: We've also managed to make Smite Evil look way cooler for Sacred Fists.

[Tajuh]

Lynnabel, is there no intent to add the Divine Might trance? The silence has been deafening, and without that trance Sacred Fist is nothing more than a cute trinket.

[Havocthedemon]

Lynnabel, is there no intent to add the Divine Might trance? The silence has been deafening, and without that trance Sacred Fist is nothing more than a cute trinket.

Cha to hit and dmg doesn’t mean much without a trance, but at LEAST remove the double strike boost and give it haste boost instead if the devs really refuse to budge on divine might for some reason. Not sure why that would be such a hard ask.

[misterski]

Cha to hit and dmg doesn’t mean much without a trance, but at LEAST remove the double strike boost and give it haste boost instead if the devs really refuse to budge on divine might for some reason. Not sure why that would be such a hard ask.

I suggested they replace Violence begets Violence with Divine Might since it sucks. I would trade that and the double strike boost for Divine Might.

[Propane]

Quick update: We've also managed to make Smite Evil look way cooler for Sacred Fists.

Are you a planning another preview for us to check stuff out?

I am hoping you revisit the idea of New Shinny Avenging Whirlwind and New Shinny Whirlwind Attack feat having the same cooldown...

[Vyrtigo]

*adjusts his pretend developer hat*

At this time we do not see tactics as a focus of the Sacred Fist archtype. Instead this tree is focused on DPS with paladin qualities such as cha to saves, smite evil, lay on hands and access to a spellbook unlike monk. We reserve the right to revisit this in the future if we find Sacred fist is not filling in the role we believe it should have as a primarily DPS focused archtype.


*takes off his pretend developer hat*

Really I just made all that up off the top of my head but really let us in on the thought process here define what you see this archtype doing, what roles you see it serving, it's strengths it's weaknesses etc it will go a long way in helping your playerbase accept what it is your creation. We just want some answer rather than silence. I for one am still curious why this archtype has Radiant Servant at all beyond the fact that clerics and paladins are both "divine/faith" based classes.

[Havocthedemon]

*adjusts his pretend developer hat*

At this time we do not see tactics as a focus of the Sacred Fist archtype. Instead this tree is focused on DPS with paladin qualities such as cha to saves, smite evil, lay on hands and access to a spellbook unlike monk. We reserve the right to revisit this in the future if we find Sacred fist is not filling in the role we believe it should have as a primarily DPS focused archtype.


*takes off his pretend developer hat*

Really I just made all that up off the top of my head but really let us in on the thought process here define what you see this archtype doing, what roles you see it serving, it's strengths it's weaknesses etc it will go a long way in helping your playerbase accept what it is your creation. We just want some answer rather than silence. I for one am still curious why this archtype has Radiant Servant at all beyond the fact that clerics and paladins are both "divine/faith" based classes.


The only problem with that silly reasoning is that tactics are needed to be viable. That’s like saying a caster tree doesn’t support DCs only DPS. DC’s are still important to deal damage. All casters use dcs for cc like holds and all melee use tactics for cc like dire charge or bard freezes. It’s literally how the game works, especially into epics/legendary content/high reapers which is also slowly becoming more of the game (and where the fun is for most of us that play).

[Vyrtigo]

The only problem with that silly reasoning is that tactics are needed to be viable. That’s like saying a caster tree doesn’t support DCs only DPS. DC’s are still important to deal damage. All casters use dcs for cc like holds and all melee use tactics for cc like dire charge or bard freezes. It’s literally how the game works, especially into epics/legendary content/high reapers which is also slowly becoming more of the game (and where the fun is for most of us that play).

And I agree with you, I was just providing a fictitious explanation as to maybe why it is possible they aren't giving the archetype divine might or something similar or any other bonus to tactics stuff. And I also formatted it in the way that I would like to see the explanation presented. We are or are not doing this because (Insert various reasons and thought process with some facts or something supporting the case)

I did it as a sort of template for what should be happening rather than simply ignoring the question which has come up in every preview of this archetype so far.

[TPICKRELL]

And I agree with you, I was just providing a fictitious explanation as to maybe why it is possible they aren't giving the archetype divine might or something similar or any other bonus to tactics stuff. And I also formatted it in the way that I would like to see the explanation presented. We are or are not doing this because (Insert various reasons and thought process with some facts or something supporting the case)

I did it as a sort of template for what should be happening rather than simply ignoring the question which has come up in every preview of this archetype so far.

Sacred Fist Archetype = 15 Healing Amp

That all folks.

[drathdragon]

Not normal! I'd love more information on how you leveled up - were you leveling in the dojo or through a Lesser/Epic Reincarnation? What was your class breakdown?

sorry for the late answer, i've read only now your reply and request of information.

well,

basically i was trying to replicate (to study some troubles i have with the build) the toon i actually have in hardcore server.

all first life, no TR and no lesser Reincarnation, no Epic reincarnation either.
simply leveling in the dojo

first i took 5 levels of sorcerer
then i begun with levels of FVS till level 17

at lvl 17 i've taken 3 levels of paladin chosing* (yes there was a chose path to decide) the classic paladin path (instead of sacred fist paladin)

so 5 sorc/12 FVS and 3 -i wish was paladin but it shows:- cleric

I already found this issue trying another similar build weeks ago but at the time i thought it was correct and it was me that missed some information in the update.

[Theolin]

There seems to be a conflict with Deity feats, if you take one as favored soul before taking paladin levels you do not get handwraps as favored weapons nor charisma to damage on handwraps as deity weapons.

[dgtgtd]

Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

Caster level, not Sacred Fist Dice or Character level?

[Shedrakzo]

After some thought and play, the new melee power scaling for the ki-spells is nice. But I can't help but wonder if we could allow these abilities to scale like the new ED options with the best of 300% melee power or spellpower?

I'm eyeing the thought of a Dragonborn or Tiefling melee-caster hybrid, but ultimately it's going to end up being awkward trying to fit melee power, spellpower, and spell crit just like any other hybrid. It'd be nice to be able to choose a path to play with the 'ki caster' idea just like old Henshin before the revamp to use melee power exclusively.

[SpardaX]

1 bug with ki bolt

The -1 to all Saves effect of Ki Bolt works, and stacks with itself, but only from 1 class. Hitting an enemy with a Sacred Fist ki bolt, and then a Henshin Mystic ki bolt does not give a stacking effect. It doesnt even restart the duration of the effect.

1 bug with Incinerating wave

The Henshin Mystic wave still says it has a save. I tested it for a while and it seems like it doesn't, so I assume it's just a text bug now. Some text that should have been removed that wasn't.

1 bug with both.

ki bolt and Incinerating Wave can be quickened, but quicken doesn't seem to speed up the animation. It seems to do nothing except cost 10 SP. Henshin Mystic's SLA versions are the same. Can be quickened. Don't actually get quickened.

[Propane]

I have been thinking more about this...

Avenging Whirlwind (the tier 5) will now share its cooldown with the Whirlwind Attack feat

KotC
~35 AP + 3 feats DEX 13+ --> 3 melee AOE (Exalted Attack & Avenging Cleave & New Whirlwind) + 5 dodge
Next Feat --> Spring Attack or Power Attack

Sacred Fist
~35 AP + 3 feats STR13+ --> 3 melee AOE (Sacred Whirlwind & Avenging Whirlwind & Great Cleave) + PA
Next Feat --> Dodge

This proposed cooldown basically puts Spring Attack (almost abundant step) mostly out of reach for Sacred Fist (2 more feats to get it)-
While bringing New Whirlwind within closer reach for every other class / tree combo (1 less feat)

Spring Attack feel like it should be within reach of the Sacred Fist and if felt right assume the cool downs were with the Cleave / Great Cleave chain...

[Tepi]

Would it be overpowered to add something to either T5 or 18/20 core to Sacred Fist that allows them to remain centered while wielding any favoured weapon?

[SpardaX]

This probably isnt the answer people want to hear
But like, when I needed Divine Might on my bard, I just took a lv of FvS.

[Paisheng]

Not for monks, which always had 2 hits. Its a straight up nerf from 4w to 2w. Its a buff for all other classes that take it.

There are 2 shining lights. Many monks have tested and shown that there is a delay of about 1/2 second after the wwa animation. This delay will be taken away with this update so that we can attack right away, so this helps offset the 2w. The other is the fact we can now take sword of plowshares, which increases crit threat range by one, thanks to the feat restrictions being taken away. It works out.


I also noticed that monks already had 2 hits at 4W. I would much rather have the 4W and pay an extra feats like before (I would use Spring Attack anyway -- even though Tabaxi Iconic get 200% melee power with it and feline agility and Razor claw can pounce with 6W. (These spin attacks come simply in racial tree even at level 1 if you have enough racials.)

Simultaneously they buff great cleave to be equivalent of the nerfed Whirlwind helping all other melees again except Handwrap monks. Monk handwrap is at the bottom of DPS and there they shall remain with this new nerf. Even sacred fist is more DPS with their added d6s of fire dmg with each hit from the cores! Yet the very class that was originally designed to do fantastic dps with handwraps (open hand before this) remains a lack luster melee class. Even the new archetype does better at it that them.....

I don't like how in the end that there is bragging and smiling about improving cleaves and whirlwind for other weapon types, while sneaking in another reduction to handwrap monks.

My suggestion: Go back to 4W and make this spin attack equivalent to the 2 racial spins/spring attacks that are better in the two racials. At least 3W -- though that is still a nerf. I know that Plowshares is suppose to "even" out this nerf, but originally the Handwraps adding +1 in Plowshares was suppose to improve monk DPS to bring them out of the basement. A 5% more chance of a crit I don't think does much now with this whirlwind attack reduction.

My second suggestion: Let offhand attacks affect whirlwind (I think they once did long ago before that was nerfed....I could be wrong on that). The monk trains equally on both sides of his body so in this case "off-foot." This would potentially, depending on their offhand attack percentage give them a chance of a third hit.

[Ordinary]

While converting the tree for the planner I noticed an error in one of the Tier 5 entries for the tree requiring Paladin level 2, which should be Paladin level 5 .

[askrj1]

This probably isnt the answer people want to hear
But like, when I needed Divine Might on my bard, I just took a lv of FvS.

The thing is bards didn't have DM native, but paladins do. It makes no sense to make an archetype dependent on cha then not give them the required ability, then need to take multiclass to utilize it and never access the capstone.

Also martial bards could never really play pure anyway to start with.

[Krelar]

Quick update: We've also managed to make Smite Evil look way cooler for Sacred Fists.

Did you do it in such a way that it doesn't reduce your attack rate? Many years ago there was an attempt to make smite evil look *cooler* that actually made you do less DPS than if you just used regular attacks.

[Nickodeamous]

I also noticed that monks already had 2 hits at 4W. I would much rather have the 4W and pay an extra feats like before (I would use Spring Attack anyway -- even though Tabaxi Iconic get 200% melee power with it and feline agility and Razor claw can pounce with 6W. (These spin attacks come simply in racial tree even at level 1 if you have enough racials.)

Simultaneously they buff great cleave to be equivalent of the nerfed Whirlwind helping all other melees again except Handwrap monks. Monk handwrap is at the bottom of DPS and there they shall remain with this new nerf. Even sacred fist is more DPS with their added d6s of fire dmg with each hit from the cores! Yet the very class that was originally designed to do fantastic dps with handwraps (open hand before this) remains a lack luster melee class. Even the new archetype does better at it that them.....

I don't like how in the end that there is bragging and smiling about improving cleaves and whirlwind for other weapon types, while sneaking in another reduction to handwrap monks.

My suggestion: Go back to 4W and make this spin attack equivalent to the 2 racial spins/spring attacks that are better in the two racials. At least 3W -- though that is still a nerf. I know that Plowshares is suppose to "even" out this nerf, but originally the Handwraps adding +1 in Plowshares was suppose to improve monk DPS to bring them out of the basement. A 5% more chance of a crit I don't think does much now with this whirlwind attack reduction.

My second suggestion: Let offhand attacks affect whirlwind (I think they once did long ago before that was nerfed....I could be wrong on that). The monk trains equally on both sides of his body so in this case "off-foot." This would potentially, depending on their offhand attack percentage give them a chance of a third hit.

Yeah, I was happy for all of about 30 seconds when I saw that everybody would have 2 hits... Here's one more for you as well. Im sure you know this, but Drifting Lotus hits 3 times for stick monks and only 1 time for handwraps? How about that literal kick in the teeth to handwrap monks. I brought it up a few times, but the tree that we are "supposed" to use is garbage (hence why I use another ED).

I would keep in mind that 5% more chance to crit is actually more DPS that just 5%, since a crit hits at what 4x or something?

The thing that scares me is that they said that this is just to start to get great cleave and WWA in line...so who knows what they are planning to do after this round. I can stand to lose the 2w if I do not lose the 2 hits. Its really immaterial at end game, but it hurts on the way up through heroics.

Please Devs, realize that monks are supposed to be the quintessential handwrap users, not dogs, not paladins. (no offense to Pallys). They should be better in all facets as this is what a monk is.

bring back our heroic w's!!! Pretty please...with sugar on top!

Nico

[Lotoc]

Please Devs, realize that monks are supposed to be the quintessential handwrap users, not dogs, not paladins. (no offense to Pallys). They should be better in all facets as this is what a monk is.

bring back our heroic w's!!! Pretty please...with sugar on top!

Nico

Sacred Fist is even more focused on Handwraps than Monk is both in DDO and in Tabletop (in fact in tabletop for a Sacred Fist even carrying a weapon causes the equivalent of a paladin committing an evil deed and falling), being that not only do you not get proficiency with the other centered weapons besides quarterstaves but you're also locked to Handwraps as favored weapons, making handwraps so they're only viable on monks specifically just makes the archetype entirely redundant, it also makes improvements to handwraps hard to justify when only one class uses them and that class has plenty of alternative playstyles.
In tabletop plenty of classes have existed that use unarmed combat, Pugilists, Brawlers, Sacred Fists, Fist of the Forest etc. No other combat style gets this unjustified "Me only screw everyone else" mindset, you don't see fighter players saying nobody else should be allowed to use a tower shield, you don't get barbarians saying you're ruining their class fantasy by using a greataxe on another class. Hell I bet druids wouldn't complain nearly as much if wizards or sorcs got an archetype around polymorphing theirselves.

As is monks get plenty that Sacred Fist won't.
Far more movement speed, abundant step, stances, alternative weapon options, shuriken use, an array of Ki attacks of 5/6 different elements, the finisher system etc. If you want improvements to monk I'd advise focusing more on the monk class's unique systems than on a weapon type.

[Nickodeamous]

Sacred Fist is even more focused on Handwraps than Monk is both in DDO and in Tabletop

This is a video game. if DDO went by tabletop rules, Monks would get more base damage increase (hence my W's comment, which SSG took away)



making handwraps so they're only viable on monks specifically just makes the archetype entirely redundant, it also makes improvements to handwraps hard to justify when only one class uses them and that class has plenty of alternative playstyles.

Anybody who wants to use wraps can use them on shifters and now Pally's. Doesnt bother me one bit. I never said make them only viable on monks. I simply said that monks should have their W's reinstated to compete with other DPS builds. And yes, I have tried shurikens, and sticks, but my playstyle is handwraps, so that's what i'll play (and I make it work) :)


In tabletop plenty of classes have existed that use unarmed combat, Pugilists, Brawlers, Sacred Fists, Fist of the Forest etc. No other combat style gets this unjustified "Me only screw everyone else" mindset

This is not my intention at all. I didn't say screw any playstyle here. All I said was Monks should be tops with wraps, and since monks have been the class nerfed the most in the last 5 years, I think adding the w's back is a good start.


you don't see fighter players saying nobody else should be allowed to use a tower shield, you don't get barbarians saying you're ruining their class fantasy by using a greataxe on another class. Hell I bet druids wouldn't complain nearly as much if wizards or sorcs got an archetype around polymorphing theirselves.

Maybe I should just change over to a Pally. I have the gear. I dont care who plays what. :)


As is monks get plenty that Sacred Fist won't. Far more movement speed, abundant step, stances, alternative weapon options, shuriken use, an array of Ki attacks of 5/6 different elements, the finisher system etc.

I've played a handwrap monk player for years. Movement speed is nice I agree. Abundant step is now meh due to spring attack (which anybody can get basically). Stances are nice. Alternative weapons for me at least are a deal breaker. I personally have a playstyle I like as I am sure you do. I like handwraps. I could care less for stick builds or throwers. They aren't my bag. Ok, Ki attacks are nice. I don't think sacred fist has QP (which was nerfed into oblivion), or jade type strikes, so I see your point. Finishers are garbage and honestly everything is dead before you even rattle anything off. I dont even have the elemental strikes in my rotation. lol. Anyway, there is alot of differences! And that's good!


If you want improvements to monk I'd advise focusing more on the monk class's unique systems than on a weapon type.

hence, back to my original note, to add back the leveling damage in the form of W's. :) It would be a good start.

Honestly, I am excited to try the archetype, but my post had nothing to do with them. it started on whirlwind attack and the 2W nerf to it for monks, and the 2 hit buff for all other classes. Then I got rolling on other stuff.

[LurkingVeteran]

It's the same animation as before, but we've eliminated most of the gap between when the animation finished and when you are allowed to attack again; it should be significantly smoother and somewhat shorter overall. And if you're any build that has Strikethrough, this now hits twice at 4[w] where before it only hit once at 4[w], so it should be significantly better than before.

(This wasn't in the notes at all because I finished it about 90 seconds ago).

Just to be clear. I believe these two attacks have always proced offhand strikes for handwraps. Will that be that case for other dual wielded weapons as well?

Regarding the regular cleaves, the +2 vs +4W gets insignificant quickly. It would be much better if you made abilities just scale with x% more melee power. GCleave could use about 150% MP and Cleave maybe 125%. Exact numbers to be tweaked so that they aren't much of a DPS on single targets. I'm not sure if the engine allows this, but it would make sense and play very well I think.

[LurkingVeteran]

...

Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).



Regarding SLA-like damage abilities that are not spells or melee attacks, there is a fundamental scaling problem with these that at some point should be addressed if they are to stay relevant in epics. Melee attacks in epics scale to a large extent through weapon damage and double strike, while spell casters instead get some MCL, crit% and crit damage on top of the regular melee/spell power scaling. These non-spell "SLAs" get neither, so even though they scale with melee power, they fall tragically behind.

One can fiddle with the MP scaling %, but the power curves of MP alone is about linear, while when taking the above factors into account, the power becomes non-linear. This means it will always either be OP 1-2x, or weak at cap. An alternative might be to simply scale damage more with epic levels (currently there is none), or allow these SLAs to double strike somehow.

Note on Ki Bolt: I hope you guys have looked at the animation, it was useless before. I would also generally prefer all of these did more light or force than fire, since fire is so resisted and they have no alternatives.

[Xgya]

Anyway, back to Sacred Fist: the level 6 feat Divine Dream now grants Charisma to Attack/Damage while centered. Furthermore, we're adjusting Ki Explosion: it now deals 1d6+3 Fire and Force damage per caster level, scaling with 300% Melee Power. And its casting speed has been adjusted from 1.1 to 1.5 (this comes out to about a 25% increase in casting speed).

Anyway, that's all I got for you right now for Sacred Fist!

Actively increased my hype for Sacred Fist.

And the WWA feat looks a LOT better than it used to. Might need to re-plan a few builds to slot that one back in all over again!

[Lotoc]

With regards to the lack of trance
Maybe have sacred fist be the prototype for the tranceless system, the one without snapshotting abuse.
Capstone giving "gain an insight bonus to damage and tactical DCs equal to 1/2 your charisma modifier at all times" would honestly fix a major concern people have with the class, balance Sacred Fist better vs a 18 sac/1fvs/1monk build and if it works out pathe the way for all trances to be moved in a similar direction.

[Thok]

Somebody please explain sacred fist dice to me. I'm a returning player. Thanks.

[C-Dog]

After the fact re Lam', and not the biggest bug on the field, but figured I'd post here...


The code for in-game gear for a SF is still targeted at a default heavy Pali.

At the end of The Shipwreck Shore, in that end chest, a SF receives a Medium armor breastplate and light shield - useless to a "monk".

Then, in reward lists, if you have "Rewards based on Class", you get Heavy and Medium armor and 2-handed weapons raining down; again, kinda not monk-friendly.

[cdbd3rd]

....
Then, in reward lists, if you have "Rewards based on Class", you get Heavy and Medium armor and 2-handed weapons raining down; again, kinda not monk-friendly.


LR'd a lowbie pally I hadn't used in a while to try this new thing out. Drow, Level 5. First note was as C-dog points out, couldn't get a set of 'Wraps in a quest reward to save my ... Fists.

Second, and haven't seen mention of this in all the SF threads I've dug through tonight... I have gathered up groups of Kobolds and fired off my Exalted Whirlwind in the middle of them, and... nothing. A quick little dance, but no hits, no misses, no notes in the combat log at all. The Whirlwind does break boxes & crates tho. (Am I sensing some Sonic Phoom'ishness? :) )

[TPICKRELL]

LR'd a lowbie pally I hadn't used in a while to try this new thing out. Drow, Level 5. First note was as C-dog points out, couldn't get a set of 'Wraps in a quest reward to save my ... Fists.

Second, and haven't seen mention of this in all the SF threads I've dug through tonight... I have gathered up groups of Kobolds and fired off my Exalted Whirlwind in the middle of them, and... nothing. A quick little dance, but no hits, no misses, no notes in the combat log at all. The Whirlwind does break boxes & crates tho. (Am I sensing some Sonic Phoom'ishness? :) )

Not sure what could be different, but I've got two Sacred Fist toons farming loot on Hardcore and Exalted Whirlwind is working for both of them. The hit box feels small, but its landing on multiple targets.

[cdbd3rd]

Not sure what could be different, but I've got two Sacred Fist toons farming loot on Hardcore and Exalted Whirlwind is working for both of them. The hit box feels small, but its landing on multiple targets.

I know it worked when I first LR'd. Only thing I can think of that I did weird was try using some random scrolls to hit a wall-clinging Kobold. Didn't catch the immediate moment it quit working. Relog didn't fix it.


Slogged on thru 5 and took 6. At that point, it started working again. *shrug* Dunno. As haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, probably no big deal.

[TPICKRELL]

I know it worked when I first LR'd. Only thing I can think of that I did weird was try using some random scrolls to hit a wall-clinging Kobold. Didn't catch the immediate moment it quit working. Relog didn't fix it.


Slogged on thru 5 and took 6. At that point, it started working again. *shrug* Dunno. As haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, probably no big deal.

Really weird, but so much in the game is weird right now. Thank you for the info, I'll be on the watch out for this now.

[Mindos]

With regards to the lack of trance
Maybe have sacred fist be the prototype for the tranceless system, the one without snapshotting abuse.
Capstone giving "gain an insight bonus to damage and tactical DCs equal to 1/2 your charisma modifier at all times" would honestly fix a major concern people have with the class, balance Sacred Fist better vs a 18 sac/1fvs/1monk build and if it works out pathe the way for all trances to be moved in a similar direction.

How do you define snapshotting abuse? And do you really want all the trances in the cores?

[ONIN_GIN_RYU]

Dear devs, please consider divine might on Sacred Fist enhancement tree.