Guild stolen!

[Dalsheel]

I was the leader and one of the founders of one oldest guilds on Argonnessen server.
I stopped playing for personal reasons some time ago and 10 days ago I came back to the game only to realize I have been kicked out of my guild.

The guild's name is "Zerg Zerg". Older players of Argo know it. The guy that stole my guild is also known to most older players...

I waited for the usurper to log back in only to see him immediately log off again when I sent him a message asking him to invite me back to the guild.
(Worth noting my guild renown contribution is forever gone, after being 12 years on the guild)

The guild has Dedalean Kraken, all the amenities leveled up to max and is painted with store paint. These things cost a lot of money. Money that I paid alone, because I wanted to and I never complaint about it... never imagining and officer would usurp the guild and kick me out of it.

I filed a ticket to the in-game support. They responded to me with a prerecorded message about how many days one has to be offline for the guild to be usurped... they didn't even understand what I was telling them.
I responded to them to take the matter "upstairs" 'cause this is one of the oldest guilds on the server and I am one of the oldest players as well.
Supposedly they did "escalate" my ticket as they said, only to respond 4 days later with the SAME prerecorded message as before, noting at the eend that they can't help me further... as if they helped AT ALL!

The guy STOLE my guild, without putting a cent into it and SSG are supporting him. They are supporting betrayal and thievery!

I came back to the game thirsty to get my completionist and epic completionist back after being away and now I'm probably uninstalling the game again.
I'm telling you this so that you know where SSG stands when it comes to thievery.

-Dalsheel

[Arkat]

It wasn't stolen. By leaving the game for 12 years, you essentially gave it up.

[Dalsheel]

It wasn't stolen. By leaving the game for 12 years, you essentially gave it up.

Can you even read english? I was member for 12 years. I didn't leave for 12 years.

[Arkat]

Can you even read english? I was member for 12 years. I didn't leave for 12 years.

Ok. I read things very quickly and sometimes I get a detail or two wrong. My apologies.




I stopped playing for personal reasons some time ago

It wasn't stolen. By leaving the game "some time ago," you essentially gave it up.

[Enoach]

I assume your generic response was along the lines found in the ddo wiki https://ddowiki.com/page/Guild under Inactive Leadership

As a founder member and long time player, I'm a bit confused that you were unaware of this as it has been in play since Guilds started.

Based on this it appears you were on a leave of absence for more than 60 days.

Did you leave any messages with the guild officers about your absence?
Were you on good terms with any of your officers? If so, maybe reach out to one of them.

[JOTMON]

Adverse Possession: (colloquially referred to as “Squatter’s Rights”) is the occupation of property, in whole or in part, by a non-owner party, with the intention of possessing it as their own

SSG favors the existing tenants over the purchasing owner by implementing a game mechanic that allows the guild to be usurped:

if the Leader has been inactive for 60 days...
-The designated Successor can become Guild Leader.
-If there is no (active) Successor [Successor has been inactive for 60 days], any Officer can choose the "Usurp" option (see image, right) and become Guild Leader (as above). First come, first served.
-If the previously inactive Leader or designated Successor returns at a later time, there is no recourse except normal social interaction
-And, no, a game admin will not hep the original owner, not even if you "ask nicely".
It's a FU to the Original person that purchased and named the guild.

The only way to protect your guild is to not allow any members to be Officers.
Members can't usurp the guild, but they also cant do anything else like add members or update amenities... guild will likely implode if leadership is AFK for an extended time...
We only have Leader, Officer, Member as options... There are no other options for guildies to have Officer access that excludes the option to usurp the guild.

Its a terrible mechanic from my perspective and has been criticized since the inception of guilds.
SSG has ignored the issue.

I would like to see More ranking options and renown be partially associated to the player as well as a mutiny/guild split option.


2016

~Guildships.. Mutinies/splits/reforms

.. Personally I believe the guild system is flawed.

1. The person that created the guild should own the guild Name. this should not be usurpable.. they thought up the name, and purchased the guild with their resources to start it up.
If they pass ownership then it was their choice to give up the name..

2. Renown should belong to the players that earned it. 50% of the reputation should travel with the player if they leave a guild for whatever reason.
Any personally AS purchased amenities go with them as well.(plat purchases stay with boat).. an option to leave on good terms and leave without AS purchases is reasonable.
Leaving the guild will then lose the player 50% of their renown, the remaining 50% can be taken to any new guild or used to start their own guild...
Everytime a player quits a guild they lose 50% of what they have remaining. (discourages guild hopping)..

3. Mutiny option should require a majority vote by renown ownership. Officers with little or no renown investment should not have the power to usurp the guild.
They don't have the renown reputation to take over..

A mutiny should result in Split ship... Some mutinies don't end as expected...
a starter ship (dingy) being launched with the Leader on board bearing the guildship Name and their personal invested renown, (and any personal ship AS purchased upgrades/amenities)
..could do something like ship splits into 2 starter ships with plat split between the two ships and AS held in a player trust to only be spent by players on the ship they sided with...
...A leader that has invested a lot into their guild (used personal AS instead of guild pooled AS) may end up in the Galleon leaving behind a dingy of mutineers...

..The Mutinied ship raises their own new flag..thus requiring a new name.
Any player logging in after that has the option to jump ship to the original Leader or remain on the Mutinied boat or quit both.. (cant board a ship via guild portal until they make their choice.. on the plank between ships..)
Those that choose to remain with the leader take their full renown (and any guildship AS purchases) with them or remain with the usurped guildship
(unless they walked the plank with the original leader and were removed from the usurped guildship roster then the choice was made for them).






Guild changes I would like to see..

Guild renown..
It is not just the reputation of the guild, it is also made up of the players who are part of the guild.

I would like to see Player contribution renown tracked separately from common guild renown.
Player renown being made up of guild renown actively earned by the player from things like chest tokens/saga tokens instead of taking other rewards..
players that have actively selected guild Renown (and multipliers from purchased renown pots) deserve recognition for their personal contributions beyond guild association bonuses.

Let players who leave a Guild take half their personal contribution renown with them.
This way Players or groups of players who choose to leave a guild can take some renown with them wherever they go..
..rejoin a new guild and half their personal renown is contributed to the new guild.. guild hoppers would lose half of what they have left every time they leave a guild.
Guild implosions and reforms would not be a complete screw you to the players who leave or are forced to leave.. there would be loss, but not a complete loss.


Replace 'usurp guild' with 'Mutiny'.
As far as I am concerned, the person who purchased the guild charter owns it, unless they give it up willingly no one deserves to steal it from them no matter how long they have been gone.

Have 'Mutiny' allow a confidence vote by the majority of guild renown holders to elect a new acting leader which triggers a mutiny ship split for the Mutineers and their renown.
Guild members then can choose to accept guild transfer to the newly created Mutiny ship named by the elected leader or reject the invite and remain with the original captain.



Set renown benchmarks to trigger Mutiny options for kicked players.
When a ranking renown player is kicked from the guild an option to trigger a mutiny by the kicked player to let them transfer their renown to a newly created guildship and invite other players from the same guild to transfer to their new ship
This allows high guild contributors to transition instead of getting completely planked.

Similar change for the Guild Leader who commits a Barratry (Mutiny by the leadership against the good of the ship/crew)
..guild leader tries to disband the guild triggering a reverse mutiny where the captain splits the ship while retaining the guild name and an option to invite other guild members to transfer with or remain behind
This way a ****y leader doesn't screw the contributing players by mass kicking members/disbanding the guild leaving guild members renownless.

[Dalsheel]

The only way to protect your guild is to not allow any members to be Officers.
Members can't usurp the guild, but they also cant do anything else like add members or update amenities... guild will likely implode if leadership is AFK for an extended time...
We only have Leader, Officer, Member as options... There are no other options for guildies to have Officer access that excludes the option to usurp the guild.



From their reply to me:
"If the successor does not usurp leadership within 10 days (45 days of the leader being absent), all officers of the kinship receive a mail informing them that any officer can usurp leadership.
If no officer usurps leadership within 20 days (55 days of the leader being absent), the option to usurp is available to all members of the kinship, but no mail is sent."

So they're saying if you're going to have a break you better kick all other guild members... to be safe!

[Dalsheel]

I assume your generic response was along the lines found in the ddo wiki https://ddowiki.com/page/Guild under Inactive Leadership

As a founder member and long time player, I'm a bit confused that you were unaware of this as it has been in play since Guilds started.

Based on this it appears you were on a leave of absence for more than 60 days.

Did you leave any messages with the guild officers about your absence?
Were you on good terms with any of your officers? If so, maybe reach out to one of them.

Of course I knew the ruling and of course I told them I would be absent.
I was never expecting to be KICKED from MY GUILD!
It's not a matter of who's the leader. I'm not even a member. I am out. And I can't get in.

[Kza]

Imho 60 days is way to low time. Should be a year or 2.

My dear wife was in hospital for over 30 days (think was 35), had she been a guild leader it had been no way she had been able to resume play in 60 days.

But the most tragic thing is that the player that took control of the guild (and hopefully running it so it flourish) not just happily invite you back when you back. And it had been a nice ending on this.

[Dalsheel]

Imho 60 days is way to low time. Should be a year or 2.

My dear wife was in hospital for over 30 days (think was 35), had she been a guild leader it had been no way she had been able to resume play in 60 days.

But the most tragic thing is that the player that took control of the guild (and hopefully running it so it flourish) not just happily invite you back when you back. And it had been a nice ending on this.

After how SSG has treated me on this, the saddest thing is that I renewed my suscription before I even logged on to my character.

[Valerianus]

From their reply to me:
"If the successor does not usurp leadership within 10 days (45 days of the leader being absent), all officers of the kinship receive a mail informing them that any officer can usurp leadership.
If no officer usurps leadership within 20 days (55 days of the leader being absent), the option to usurp is available to all members of the kinship, but no mail is sent."

So they're saying if you're going to have a break you better kick all other guild members... to be safe!



did they really answered with what you quoted in quotes?

because....well.....that's a copypaste from the lotro wiki

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Kinship#Kinship_Decay



that's pretty outrageous

[Dalsheel]

did they really answered with what you quoted in quotes?


Yes, they did. They just don't care. Blatantly promoting backstabbing and thievery by allowing it while they know about it.

[Valerianus]

Yes, they did. They just don't care. Blatantly promoting backstabbing and thievery by allowing it while they know about it.


setting aside the fact that they answered with how it works in a lotro kinship and not in a ddo guild...adding insult to injury...like others said, yeah you may lose your guild and no one will help you. it was always like this, working as intended. you have no chance to get your guild back sadly, no chance to have them enter players quarrels if something happened within the rules. and even if there were a chance, imagine getting help from a customer service that doesn't even know what game you are playing.

and no, i too don't like it. i agree it should work differently. the rules are wrong imho.

i'm sorry for what happened to you.

[Enoach]

Of course I knew the ruling and of course I told them I would be absent.
I was never expecting to be KICKED from MY GUILD!
It's not a matter of who's the leader. I'm not even a member. I am out. And I can't get in.

Ok, but how about the last couple of questions?

Do you know any of the other officers that you are on good terms with? That will be your way back into the guild.

[Katalissa]

...that's a copypaste from the lotro wiki

https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Kinship#Kinship_Decay



Yeah I noticed that too - talking about kinships rather than guilds. It's also technically incorrect because normal members cannot take over a guild in DDO, regardless, even if the leader and all officers have been inactive for years.

The fact that they couldn't even give you info about the right game is telling as to the level of customer service you can expect. I'd be 99.9% certain that the "customer service" is outsourced to a 3rd party, and the staff are supporting many products from multiple companies, none of which they really play or know about. You're getting copy/paste from wiki articles because that is probably all the customer service knows about the product.

Somewhere there might be a tier 2 person (singular) that actually knows the game a little, but they probably have a queue a mile long and actively discourage lower techs from escalating stuff to them. Even so, I doubt they have the power to just put you back in the guild and reinstate your leadership. While the situation is really bad for you, the system is technically "working as intended" so I doubt they will do anything. (Even if the system as-is is awful)

[TitusOvid]

While I feel for the OP because I witnessed some shenanigans in my own guild a while back, I'd like to point out that this is not SSGs fault. That someone is absent will happen all the time. They have an absence period for that. The leader can appoint a successor of his own liking, someone he/she trusts. And that one has an absent period, too. And these periods are a good thing. I got a toon stuck in a guild where I am only a member and the only active player. I can't invite, I can't kick, I can't place amenities/hookpoints. It is a shame letting it waste away. If these periods need to be longer or shorter is debateable.
So I don't know what really happened but that you got kicked out of the guild is hardly SSGs fault. It is one of your officer's fault. And if none of the existing officers of the guild is inviting you back in then the problem lies elsewhere.
Maybe there should be the possibility to reclaim a guild. He has that right? The founder or the player that invested the most in AS or guild renown or all of the points?

I feel for you, I really do. You invested years into your guild. But it is more a social problem and less a mechanic problem that SSG can assist you on.

Good luck to you.

Cheers,
Titus.

PS: Getting a lotro response to a ddo problem is just sad but not surprising.

[Annex]

I am very sorry for your loss and hope you find your way to a new guild with lots of fun people to play with. I know you are very angry now, and rightfully so. In the coming weeks, try to make peace with it.

In life, many laws made with good intent produce very bad outcomes. Guild usurp rules are brutal. Every year or two, someone comes to these forums with a similar story. Losing all that effort, including a Kraken, is really unfair. They will not make an exception for you. Doing so would trigger a bunch of very difficult support tickets or worse.

I am shocked that you received two support responses in ten days, and that the responses were materially correct. Standing Stone Game hired new support people relatively recently so I am not surprised that someone quoted the wrong version of the relevant rule. Both games are very similar.

This incident will not result in any change to guild rules.

The characters we play would not give up, even after suffering a major setback. Perhaps there is a lesson in that.

[archest]

There should be a founder who can userp when he returns and cant be removed from the guild unless he want s to and that would be the namer and former of the guild but then what what anyone argue about.

[noinfo]

There should be a founder who can userp when he returns and cant be removed from the guild unless he want s to and that would be the namer and former of the guild but then what what anyone argue about.

In a game that is as old as this one that would be far worse.

[C-Dog]

You were gone more than 30 days - sorry, done deal.

If you'd done your due diligence, you could have designated one of your own alts as "Successor" and had 60 days. But you didn't, so, again... done deal.

Maybe the new leader feels they won't go absent for 30+ days without comment, and so will do a better job. Not that they will, but that's their self-justification.


From their reply to me:
"If the successor does not usurp leadership within 10 days (45 days of the leader being absent), all officers of the kinship receive a mail informing them that any officer can usurp leadership.
If no officer usurps leadership within 20 days (55 days of the leader being absent), the option to usurp is available to all members of the kinship, but no mail is sent."

So they're saying if you're going to have a break you better kick all other guild members... to be safe!
Who exactly is "they"?

I ask, because "they" don't know what they're talking about. The rules "they" quote are not what has been otherwise reported and confirmed by observation, that if a guild has no officers, no one can claim leadership from an absent leader. That is how it works.

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Guild#Inactive_Leadership

So, no, you don't need to "kick all other guild members" - just remove all officer status, done.

[Livmo]

These details haven't changed:

https://ddowiki.com/page/Guild

"If there is neither any (active) Leader, Officers or designated Successor (so only "Members" are active), then there is no way for a Member to become Leader*, and so no way to add new members, promote officers, buy/change amenities, or otherwise "run" the Guild, so the Guild is likely doomed. Any responsible Leader should make sure they designate an (active!) Successor and/or Officer(s), for the sake of all members in their Guild, just in case of the unexpected - life happens."

[Zeleron]

You were gone more than 30 days - sorry, done deal.



Think it was closer to a year+ that he's been gone. Or at least not actively playing

[GeneralDiomedes]

Having a hard time mustering up any SSG rage on this one.

All the OP had to do was login once a month to stay active.

And knowing in advance you would be gone, I would have given leadership over at that point just so guild maintenance could be done in my absence. Guild housekeeping doesn’t do itself.

[Buddha5440]

Can't really find any reason to be mad at SSG on this one. It seems your issue is actually with whomever usurped you, be it successor or another officer. If your guild was tight, you had a successor you trusted, and you mentioned a hiatus this likely wouldn't have happened.

My own guild founder/leader left for an unknown length of time 3+ years ago. When he left he gave ownership to the person he named as successor who then named me as successor. The founder is still an officer because neither the current leader, nor myself if he decides to leave, would kick out a friend.

[Erofen]

My own guild founder/leader left for an unknown length of time 3+ years ago. When he left he gave ownership to the person he named as successor who then named me as successor. The founder is still an officer because neither the current leader, nor myself if he decides to leave, would kick out a friend.
Amen to this. I am currently the leader of my guild of which I really have no right to be (yes, the leader gave it to me, but still), simply because I'm still playing. I would never kick him out and honestly hope he comes back and reclaims the guild. Past guild leaders from before my time in the guild are also still there being inactive for 8+ years and I'd love for them to come back too. It definitely comes down to a question of respect and I really respect the ones from my guild who came before me and provided me with this refuge.

As for the OP: guild drama sucks and I'm sorry this happened to you.

[Praya20]

I feel for you on this, i went through something similar. I was the founder and leader of Looney Toonz for some years and took some time off when my first kid was in the oven. I passed leadership to someone i trusted at the time to keep things running but as soon as i logged out he kicked me and my alts and the guild died. He still has the guild although he's alone and everyone followed me as soon as i came back so i got over it.

That being said it sucks either way, he was the guild leader and it's disrespectful no matter how long he had been gone for to not atleast invite him back and have a discussion.

Seems to me it's not worth your time Dal, and i'm sure there are plenty other guilds would welcome you in, us included.