sneak attack dice for spells

[shmagmhar]

I actaully thought this was already a thing from shadow dancer ED . i also thought it reduced casting time . but now that im looking at it seems that i was incorrect . it could be a cool thing to have in the game . your spells can add sneak attack damage . would that be gamebreaking or fun?

[Pandjed]

I actaully thought this was already a thing from shadow dancer ED . i also thought it reduced casting time . but now that im looking at it seems that i was incorrect .

You weren't.


Paranoia: When you activate your Shadowdancer Epic Strike, you imbue your weapons and spells with Evil energies for 10 seconds. You deal 1d6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Force Spellpower), and on a Vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Though the "faster casting" wasn't reduced casting time (only quickened and sorcs do that), but:

Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. Grants +30% Enhancement bonus to movement speed, 25% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch on all attacks.



The way spells are coded, it may be nigh impossible to actually have a sneak attack on them (as in, game checks flanking while spell targetting and adds the sneak attack channel to the enddamage). That's why Paranoia adds Sneak Attack dice as an extra channel without the need to check sneak attacking.
Attacks and spells do use very different game mechanics and therefore a lot what can be done for one, can't be as easily done to both.

Mind you, I think following 3e tradition of making sneak attacks with spells with attack roll would be great in my books. I just won't count on it.

[Buddha5440]

I actaully thought this was already a thing from shadow dancer ED . i also thought it reduced casting time . but now that im looking at it seems that i was incorrect . it could be a cool thing to have in the game . your spells can add sneak attack damage . would that be gamebreaking or fun?

Should not happen...Sneak attack means the enemy is unaware of your attack. It means that the person performing the attack has knowledge/skill enough to target critical areas which will do more damage because your defense against them is down (you don't even know they are there). Critical hits, on the other hand, mean that you were lucky enough to hit a vital area with your attack (melee/ranged/spell).

If you have a bunch of glowing blue missiles flying at you, you are going to notice (also they are magical/force damage not physical), if you have a bunch of meteors falling towards you from the sky (or ceiling, never understood how it's not an outdoor only spell), you are going to notice, etc.

Maybe could be used for things like shocking grasp/burning hands if you are stealthed/invis but the casting breaks stealth/invis.

If they did implement this it would also likely apply to mobs. Being sneak attacked with a lightning bolt from a kobold shaman would kill almost anyone.

[Meharial]

Should not happen...Sneak attack means the enemy is unaware of your attack. It means that the person performing the attack has knowledge/skill enough to target critical areas which will do more damage because your defense against them is down (you don't even know they are there). Critical hits, on the other hand, mean that you were lucky enough to hit a vital area with your attack (melee/ranged/spell).

If you have a bunch of glowing blue missiles flying at you, you are going to notice (also they are magical/force damage not physical), if you have a bunch of meteors falling towards you from the sky (or ceiling, never understood how it's not an outdoor only spell), you are going to notice, etc.

Maybe could be used for things like shocking grasp/burning hands if you are stealthed/invis but the casting breaks stealth/invis.

If they did implement this it would also likely apply to mobs. Being sneak attacked with a lightning bolt from a kobold shaman would kill almost anyone.

Sneak attacks as they work in game simply requires the attention not to be on you. It does not require stealth or invis. I've been thinking about this for archetypes, because honestly? The shadowdancer tree need to have some kind of identity and if SSG won't adjust the tree to what already exists, then make a new archetype for the tree (and fix t4 and t5 choices). A Nightblade kind of archetype to go with rogue as a tree similar to what spellsinger gives bard or a more rogue kind of EK or Feydark idea.

The Nightblade Archetype would still get Evasion and Sneak Attack Dice just like the base rogue. Magical training in the first row, but like Bard, Arcane Failure kicks in at anything above Light Armor. Use Magic Device, Illusion based SLAs such as Greater Invisibility with a duration like Displacement but with a cooldown in which actions don't break invisibility, allowing for sneak attacks. Illusion, Evocation and Necromancy DCs, Quick Draw, a sneak attack immunity strip or vulnerability attack like Assassin, Assassinate DCs? Quicken and Heighten SP reduction? Maybe bonuses to Orb or TWF use? Give the fear spells in the game an actual use like attacking Shaken or Feared enemies inflict Destruction, or have fort bypass or extra damage, 'sapping' of stats or something? At the top of the tree could be a 'Spellthief' stance that gives short term Sneak buffs such as damage on sneak attacks or reactive invisibility after using Touch based spells.

Cap them at lvl 6 spells, maybe with a pruned special spell list like Arcanist or Warlock if need be, but allow a lvl 18 Nightblade to take Weird from Shadowdancer, change the t5 mantle to something actually useful and we'd have something here, I think.

[draven1]

Arcane Trickster
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster/

Surprise Spells
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

Good class example for rogue or wiz Archetypes

[Meharial]

Arcane Trickster
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster/

Surprise Spells
At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.

Good class example for rogue or wiz Archetypes
A pure wizard taking Ethereal and Shadowdancer with PM tree can have 20d6 in Sneak Attack. Adding sneak attack damage straight to the Archetype's spells would be double dipping with the Shadowdancer epic strike upgrade Paranoia, that adds damage equal to the amount of Sneak Attack dice (ie, 20d6 in this case) in untyped damage that scales with Force spell power to attacks and spells for 10 secs of the 15 sec cooldown. I'm not sure if SSG would go for that, even if the potential technical issues mentioned earlier wouldn't be a problem.

That being said, Pathfinder's version of Arcane Trickster has the Greater Invisibility class feat I mentioned that can replace the Impromptu Sneak Attack as a version that's easier to balance and not so limited by rests in a dungeon crawl. We could use the Spontaneous Caster background of the D&D version though, that means fewer spell choices for to make it easier to balance, perhaps they would also have the innate faster cast speed Sorcs do since they are all about the thief mobility? Depending on the coding, but Ranged Legedermain can be achieved by making all control panels have the Disable Device distance of Spell Wards, which I can already see as being useful for some locations. Shadowdancer is already the Force tree, but potentially we could add more offensive Force spells like remove Arcane Pulse as a Epic feat no one uses and give it to this Archetype, adjust Shadow Walk to be useful (or an SLA version that's useful), Teleport, missiles, Dimension Door, Fear, Death Aura, Blur and Displacement, etc. Maybe Wail of the Banshee on a character like this would be too OP, so lvl 6 limit seems reasonable?

The other option would be to give the Archetype their version of Paranoia and make the two sources exclusive non-stacking, so other builds can use it without being a Nightblade Rogue, focused on Force, but the Rogue Archetype's damage is based on spell type like the Arcane Trickster and they can use other trees beside Shadowdancer as well. What do you think?