Update 56 Preview 1: Stormsinger Archetype

[Lynnabel]

Howdy all! Please be sure to check out both the Producer's Letter (https://www.ddo.com/news/ddo-producers-letter-august-2022) and the Archetype Overview (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533554-U56-Preview-1-Archetype-Overview?p=6532222#post6532222) page before diving in here :)

Changes from Base Class

Spellbook:
Spell Level 1:
Added: Shocking Grasp
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 2:
Added: Electric Loop
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 3:
Added: Lightning Bolt
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 4:
Added: Ball Lightning
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 5:
Added: Chain Lightning
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 6:
Added: Thunderstroke
Removed: n/a

Past Life
Stormsinger: +5 Lightning and Sonic Spellpower per stack

New Tree: Stormsinger
Replaces Swashbuckler

Themes: Lightning and sonic damage, thunder, offensive spellcasting

Summary: Harness the thunderstorms to bring elemental destruction to your enemies.

Core Abilities

Core 1: Stormsinger: You gain +5 Lightning, +5 Cold, and +5 Sonic Spellpower per core ability you take in this tree.

Core 3: Lightning Strike: Your Sonic and Cold spells have a 20% chance to cause a massive Lightning Strike whenever they hit an enemy. This lightning strike deals an extra 1d6 Electric damage per caster level.

Core 6: Enhanced Bolt I: Your Lightning Strike damage is upgraded to deal 1d6+2 Electric damage per caster level.

Core 12: Enhanced Bolt I: Your Lightning Strike is upgraded to add 1d3 stacks of Vulnerability when it goes off. The damage is upgraded to 1d6+4.

Core 18: Enhanced Bolt II: Whenever your Lightning Strike goes off, the enemy is Stunned with no save for 3 seconds. +1 Caster Level and Max Caster Level with Sonic + Cold + Electric spells.

Core 20: Master of Storms: +4 Cha, +1 Evocation DCs. Your Lightning Strike now deals 1d6+6 damage per caster level. The stun is upgraded to 5 seconds. +1 Caster Level and Max Caster Level with Sonic + Cold + Electric spells.

Tier 1:

Multiselector: Sonic Blast or Niac's Cold Ray
Musical Refrain: +1/2/3 Bard Songs
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Electrocution: Whenever you cast an Electric or Sonic damage spell, you gain +5 to your Electric and Sonic Spell Power for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 1/3/5 times.
Electric Reflexes: +1/2/3% Dodge


Tier 2:

Multiselector: Reverberate or Niac's Biting Cold
Metamagic Reduction: Maximize or Empower
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Pierce Resistance: You bypass 5/10/15 points of Electric and Sonic Resistance.
Fast Movement: You run 1% faster for each of your Bard levels.


Tier 3:

Multiselector: Shout or Snowball Swarm
Metamagic Reduction: Maximize or Empower
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Stormcaller's Aria: Your Inspire Courage grants nearby allies +2/4/6 more Universal Spellpower and MRR.
+1 Charisma


Tier 4:

Inspire the Storm: Your Bardic Inspiration imbues allies with a chance to deal your Lightning Strike on melee and ranged attacks.
Ride the Lightning: Your main hand weapon is now considered an Implement. When you sing your Soothing Song, it blasts all nearby enemies for your Lightning Strike.
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
(this space intentionally left blank)
+1 Charisma


Tier 5:

Horn of Thunder SLA
(this space intentionally left blank)
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Stormcaller: +5/10/15 Electric, Cold, and Sonic Spellpower. Rank 3: You get Iceberg as a spell at level 6.
Storm Studies: +1 Evocation DCs


Spellsinger Notes:

You may notice that this tree shares a few SLAs with Spellsinger - to help we've added multiselectors to Sonic Blast and Shout (Cure Light Wounds and Cure Light Wounds, Mass). You can't take Sonic Blast and Sonic Blast at the same time, same with the other shared SLAs. Also, we buffed Reverberate a bit!

[Loromir]

Please tell me you are not removing Swashbuckler? It's one of my favorite trees.

[Lynnabel]

Please tell me you are not removing Swashbuckler? It's one of my favorite trees.

You should take a look at the Archetype overview page! This is a new way to play bard - basic bard is not changing :)

[Epicsoul]

Please tell me you are not removing Swashbuckler? It's one of my favorite trees.

Reading is fundamental.

[gorocz]

So... this is really instead of Swashbuckler and not Spellsinger? Can you then take the same SLAs from both Stormsinger and Spellsinger, like the Sonic Blast or Shout SLA? If so, do they share cooldowns? What if they are at different ranks and thus have different length cooldowns?

[Lynnabel]

So... this is really instead of Swashbuckler and not Spellsinger? Can you then take the same SLAs from both Stormsinger and Spellsinger, like the Sonic Blast or Shout SLA? If so, do they share cooldowns? What if they are at different ranks and thus have different length cooldowns?

Check out the last little bit for this:



Spellsinger Notes:

You may notice that this tree shares a few SLAs with Spellsinger - to help we've added multiselectors to Sonic Blast and Shout (Cure Light Wounds and Cure Light Wounds, Mass). You can't take Sonic Blast and Sonic Blast at the same time, same with the other shared SLAs. Also, we buffed Reverberate a bit!

[gorocz]

Check out the last little bit for this:

Ah I see, sorry, was reading too quickly. It does look like taking SLAs from both the trees will be very strong, if you're into the whole metamagic SLAs thing :-)

(As in, taking Sonic ones from one tree and Cold from the other)

[Yamani]

Past Life
Stormsinger: +5 Lightning and Sonic Spellpower per stack

New Tree: Stormsinger
Replaces Swashbuckler

Themes: Lightning and sonic damage, thunder, offensive spellcasting

Summary: Harness the thunderstorms to bring elemental destruction to your enemies.


But all the multiselector spells are Sonic/Cold...

Should at least mention the cold in theme.

[neain2008]

Please tell me that the cold is a typo. There are no Bard spells that deal with cold (unless that's another thing that's getting added to the archtype but isn't stated yet), so the ONLY things that cold will help are those few SLAs (niacs cold ray, niacs biting cold, and snowball swarm) which other than the cold ray arent the best cold spells.

If the cold is instead a typo and supposed to be sonic, that now makes a lot more sense.

I can see the cold being thematic for the name of the archetype (Stormsinger), but it doesn't really make any sense for Bard as it currently exists.

[Zeklijan]

I see this new archetyp e tree being held back by two things:

-The inconsistency of which element you should be prioritizing. It uses all of cold/lightning/sonic without a clear choice of any of the 3 which should be a priority. At least, this is how it feels like. (Compare to druid, who gets many elements through seasons but a clear priority through their elemental form. It is clear a water form druid should prioritize Ice.)

-No way to remove damage immunities. This is a big problem any nuker runs into regularly, and this is by far the biggest limitation here. There was tiefling to help FvS with fire, there is nothing for ice/lightning/sonic.

While it looks really interesting, I don't see myself playing it outside of past lives for the above two reasons. With those changed however... consider me far more interested :)

[Tanky]

What are the spell levels for the Stormsinger and Spellsinger SLAs?

Reverberate
Niac's Biting Cold
Sonic Blast
Snowball Swarm
Shout
Mass Cure Light Wounds
Horn of Thunder

It matters for targets like the purple titan in Master Artificer, liches, etc.

Please consider adding that information to the tooltip.

[Zenthalas]

Please tell me that the cold is a typo. There are no Bard spells that deal with cold (unless that's another thing that's getting added to the archtype but isn't stated yet), so the ONLY things that cold will help are those few SLAs (niacs cold ray, niacs biting cold, and snowball swarm) which other than the cold ray arent the best cold spells.

If the cold is instead a typo and supposed to be sonic, that now makes a lot more sense.

I can see the cold being thematic for the name of the archetype (Stormsinger), but it doesn't really make any sense for Bard as it currently exists.

Maybe look at the warchanter tree a little closer

[KrazyKaster]

Tier 4:


Inspire the Storm: Your Bardic Inspiration imbues allies with a chance to deal your Lightning Strike on melee and ranged attacks.
Ride the Lightning: Your main hand weapon is now considered an Implement. When you sing your Soothing Song, it blasts all nearby enemies for your Lightning Strike.
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
(this space intentionally left blank)
+1 Charisma


Tier 5:

Horn of Thunder SLA
(this space intentionally left blank)
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Stormcaller: +5/10/15 Electric, Cold, and Sonic Spellpower. Rank 3: You get Iceberg as a spell at level 6.
Storm Studies: +1 Evocation DCs



Hi Lich! Super excited to test this archetype out - here is my feedback to put more power into the Stormsinger T5 since I think most people would be hard pressed to drop Spellsinger T5 in its current state. I suggest swapping the tier 4 enhancements (light blue) with the tier 5 enhancements (light pink). Let me know what you think!

[droid327]

- Why does this replace Swash and not Warchanter? Because of the cold synergy? Because it'd be too much overlap with SWF Arti? I'd think Swash+Storm/SS would be a fun build to play...but I dont see WC+Storm being as synergistic, even though its Cold based on both. That might be more about WC needing to be more than just a "support" tree, though.

- I'd be worried about cheese with 18 StS/2 Fey or Carceri Lock and using Chain Shape to proc Lightning Strike

- I applaud the attempt to add more Cold casters to the game...I just dont see where this is it. Why would you gear for Cold when you have just 1 single Epic-relevant Cold spell? Sonic + Elec actually has spell support, and far more synergy in destinies, Dragonborn racials, Horn of Thunder, etc. Casters dont multiclass so this Archetype has to be more self-complete for Cold casting if that's a role you want it to fill. I think it needs at least Otilukes+Polar Ray, if not something more exotic like Ice Flowers or Tsunami.

Plus, taking the Cold SLAs means you're taking the Sonic ones in Spellsinger, instead of the Cure ones that are far better - Cure Light Mass SLA especially is going to scale really well since it ends up about the same place as Cure Serious.

[neain2008]

Maybe look at the warchanter tree a little closer

Good point that I forgot about Warchanter as I don't put many/any points into it for my casters. *Checks the wiki*

However, Warchanter does not add any cold spells, and only adds a tiny amount of on-weapon hit cold damage that doesn't scale with anything (or at least doesn't state that it does on the wiki), and a capstone ability that does a 20d20 cold damage, but as far as I know is mainly a cc ability.

[Krelar]

Maybe look at the warchanter tree a little closer

There are only two abilities that deal cold damage in the warchanter tree, and neither of them are effected by spellpower. (there are also two that "freeze" enemies but don't actually do cold damage.)

[voxson5]

Please add an electric immunity bypass mechanic to t5 or 4th core.

[QuantumFX]

If you try to take the Spellsinger Horn of Thunder enhancement, it locks out tiers 2 and 3.

[Khimberlhyte]

If you try to take the Spellsinger Horn of Thunder enhancement, it locks out tiers 2 and 3.

Horn of Thunder in Stormsinger isn't working either. I can select the first level of Horn, but the second and third are locked out, as is the rest of Stormsinger tier 5.

[Ghustor]

-No way to remove damage immunities. This is a big problem any nuker runs into regularly, and this is by far the biggest limitation here. There was tiefling to help FvS with fire, there is nothing for ice/lightning/sonic.


+1

And only Tifling mechanic is a poor choice, all casters should have they our mechanic to rip out immunities or Sorc/Alch/Druid will still stand on top tier casters far way

[Zeklijan]

+1

And only Tifling mechanic is a poor choice, all casters should have they our mechanic to rip out immunities or Sorc/Alch/Druid will still stand on top tier casters far way

Completely agreed, every nuker should have the ability to remove at least the primary element they focus on.

Playing a dedicated nuker that can't remove a monster/boss it's immunity means that most of the time you are either doing insignificant or no damage in these situations. It doesn't feel good.

[EinarMal]

It's weird the criticals do not include sonic. I can see choosing the base class as a Dragonborn for the extra lightning spells in the spell book. Still better off going with Spellsinger/Falconry if you want to do spell DPS if they leave out sonic at least to me at first glance.

Mixing in a third element of cold kind of kills it, hard enough to gear two elements.

This is what I currently use when I play a Dragonborn Bard, with sonic/electric. Might be nice to add chain lightning into rotation, but pretty minor in grand scheme of things.



Feats (7):


1) Maximize


3) Quicken


6) Empower


9) Heighten


12) Completionist


15) Arcane Initaite


18) SF Enchantment


21) Inspire Excellence


22) Spellpower Sonic


24) Master of Music


25) Spell Power Lightning


27) BogW


28) Crush Weakness


30) Embolden


30) Scion of Feywild


31) Spellpower Positive



Enhancements
Spellsinger 41
Falconry 25
Racial 20
Feydark 11

Epic Destiny
Fatesinger 35
Draconic 25
Shadowdancer 13

[QuantumFX]

There's a bug i the TR process as well. My main is a 30 Warlock Tiefling Scoundrel. I did a +20 Lesser to make him a Stormsinger. I noticed very early in the TR process that I was not being offered the electric spells. I checked my enhancements, and the Stormsinger Enhancement tree *is* there. I finished levelling, logged off and back on, and tried to trade spells with the bard trainer and no luck.

[LittleLexi]

I would honestly prefer Sleet Storm to Snowball Swarm. Especially since Bards can give themselves and others FoM.

This tree having Shout(ugh not again) and Horn of Thunder seems more thematic than in Spellsinger. Yet it's a big thing for both trees. That's quite some overlap and takes away the uniqueness from each tree.

And could we have some more details on how Reverberate is being buffed please?

[Targal]

Tier 5 spell should get thunderstroke, not iceberg only.

[Lotoc]

Tier 5 spell should get thunderstroke, not iceberg only.

you get thunderstroke as a 6th level spell selection as a stormsinger, it doesn't need to be.
The spell you get from the enhancement tree isn't an SLA and is added to your spellbook.

[Targal]

you get thunderstroke as a 6th level spell selection as a stormsinger, it doesn't need to be.
The spell you get from the enhancement tree isn't an SLA and is added to your spellbook.

Oh **** I was blind

[Draxis]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it yet, but lots of SLAs + Multiple enhancements to reduce metamagic costs = Kind of pointless?

[Tanky]

One possible gear setup that maximizes crit dmg for cold, sonic and electric:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/783369236012597270/1006763389772636280/Screen_Shot_2022-08-09_at_11.16.46_PM.png

Devotion, CHA 14 and Insightful CHA 5 augments have to be slotted.

[Madja]

For a tree that's supposed to be about sonic and lightning it sure has a lot of cold in it :rolleyes: Is that a typo meant to be sonic?

[dogsoldier]

The Horn of Thunder SLA seems to be broken. Taking one rank for it, not only locks out all other tree Tier 5s, but also any other Tier 5s in the same tree, including the two more ranks for Horn of Thunder.

My initial thought on looking at this tree was that it would be fun to have Sonic, Electric, and Cold spells to pair with the Mantle of Nature Sky. It is hard to fit them all in though. You could take Shout in Spellsinger, but Cure Light Mass is too good to pass up. You can take Snowball Swarm instead from Stormsinger, but that locks you out of Shout, which is going to be the stronger SLA. You can grab Electric Loop as a spell, which is nice, but not Snowball Swarm. Each of the SLAs put the others on cooldown, which is annoying (cure light SLA on cooldown after sonic blast is cast, cure light mass on cooldown if you use shout, reverberate on cooldown if you use Niac's Biting Cold).

The Tier 5s don't seem to be worth losing Spellsinger T5s. Same for the Capstone. It does seem like a strong secondary tree, the tough choice is not with the capstones or T5, but how much you are willing to give up from Warchanter, Fighting Spirit is hard to pass up, which doesn't leave many APs for this tree.

[QuantumFX]

One possible gear setup that maximizes crit dmg for cold, sonic and electric:

FYI: you could replace the Leaf Mail with a Dinosaur Bone Light Armor for the Exceptional bonuses and 5 piece dread.

[mikarddo]

One possible gear setup that maximizes crit dmg for cold, sonic and electric:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/783369236012597270/1006763389772636280/Screen_Shot_2022-08-09_at_11.16.46_PM.png

Devotion, CHA 14 and Insightful CHA 5 augments have to be slotted.

You might find the Pomura's ring useful with electric + cold spell power and spell lore.

[Drinkfist]

This whole thing should replace the Spellsinger tree and not the Swashbuckler. Honestly I see Spellsingers everywhere and this is just going to add lightning strike procs with no stated caster level max. Its already heavily overlapping with Spellsinger so this just makes it Spellsinger+.

[cru121]

Spellbook:
Spell Level 1:
Added: Shocking Grasp
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 2:
Added: Electric Loop
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 3:
Added: Lightning Bolt
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 4:
Added: Ball Lightning
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 5:
Added: Chain Lightning
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 6:
Added: Thunderstroke
Removed: n/a


Shocking Grasp is meh. How about Shocking Bolt?
Lightning Bolt is overused. Arcanes, Clerics, Artificers can have it. Maybe replace with something more esoteric, from Druid/Artificer/Alchemist spellbook?
Electric Loop is probably not going to see much action. It's decent on a sorcerer with fast casting speed, but not so much on a wizard. On a bard with slow casting speed and small blue bar for metamagics, I don't see it used much.

[Targal]

Shocking Grasp is meh. How about Shocking Bolt?
Lightning Bolt is overused. Arcanes, Clerics, Artificers can have it. Maybe replace with something more esoteric, from Druid/Artificer/Alchemist spellbook?
Electric Loop is probably not going to see much action. It's decent on a sorcerer with fast casting speed, but not so much on a wizard. On a bard with slow casting speed and small blue bar for metamagics, I don't see it used much.

1-3 level spells are compatible with Master of Air, and it looks SSG wanted us to use it.
But still I agree that shocking touch is something not good spell to take as a bard spell, but you don't get good stuff always

[Pandjed]

OK, what is the point? I mean, why the heck would this half-baken approach make me think of this as something, I want to see next to a normal bard? Unless you want to play a swashbuckler, this is basically an upgrade. It gets more spell-variety and the only trade-off is a tree, which is bad in its current reincarntion.
So that's how you want to sell us on archetypes?

"Archetypes! Play a character like you never did before! By exchanging one tree and adding a tiny bit more, but making no other big changes, you will get a DDO experience like you never did before. Except you probably did, cuz electric damage isn't that seldom. But hey, you get the same bard buffs as always! This has count for something, right? Also, you don't lose any spells! Do you feel the excitment burning in you?"

Seriously, if a launch archetype starts so tame with its changes to the base class, we'll end up where iconics are now. Go, grab the bard by its songs, change some of the buffs, exchange fascinate with another abilty, take some spells away, make it feel like an actual trade-off.

The more I look at it, the more borish and uncreative it becomes and make me think, that adding stormsinger as 4th tree would make much more sense (which could add the spells to the spellbook by itself).

[NemesisAlien]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/l46CbhkS0F7glZjkQ/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47z94jidql22mv5ylr1gyhf0eyk4hn 03bjzyby3ked&rid=giphy.gif

[Caarb]

I feel the archetype is trying to do too much with sonic electric and cold - I would double down on the electric/cold giving electric SLA options and cold spells to give the enhancement tree a little synergy

Right now it plays like just a better spellsinger bard. At least the other 2 archetype give interesting new options.

[EinarMal]

One possible gear setup that maximizes crit dmg for cold, sonic and electric:


Devotion, CHA 14 and Insightful CHA 5 augments have to be slotted.

It's possible, but it doesn't seem that useful to me, given the cold spells you can actually cast, would still seem better to just take this archetype for the spells and maybe the enhancement tree, and ignore cold and use sonic with electric (draconic). Personally I would still go T5 and 41 in Spellsinger, no way I am giving up heal and mass hold.

I would have to run some numbers, this might be a better 2nd tree than falconry 30% helpless damage.

[Caarb]

OK, what is the point? I mean, why the heck would this half-baken approach make me think of this as something, I want to see next to a normal bard? Unless you want to play a swashbuckler, this is basically an upgrade. It gets more spell-variety and the only trade-off is a tree, which is bad in its current reincarntion.
So that's how you want to sell us on archetypes?

"Archetypes! Play a character like you never did before! By exchanging one tree and adding a tiny bit more, but making no other big changes, you will get a DDO experience like you never did before. Except you probably did, cuz electric damage isn't that seldom. But hey, you get the same bard buffs as always! This has count for something, right? Also, you don't lose any spells! Do you feel the excitment burning in you?"

Seriously, if a launch archetype starts so tame with its changes to the base class, we'll end up where iconics are now. Go, grab the bard by its songs, change some of the buffs, exchange fascinate with another abilty, take some spells away, make it feel like an actual trade-off.

The more I look at it, the more borish and uncreative it becomes and make me think, that adding stormsinger as 4th tree would make much more sense (which could add the spells to the spellbook by itself).
Agree with this replace songs or Aria with "Sea Shanty" and give them different effects - needs to play differently to the current bard or whats the point? Also while doing this make songs aoe - nothing worse casting the same 6s song 12 times before a raid.

[Tanky]

You might find the Pomura's ring useful with electric + cold spell power and spell lore.
Already have Ice Lore covered with the gloves. I can't replace Spring Storms with it, else I'd then lose Sonic Lore. So Pomura's Memento doesn't net anything for this build since you can create an augment for the Insightful Spell Lore 5.


FYI: you could replace the Leaf Mail with a Dinosaur Bone Light Armor for the Exceptional bonuses and 5 piece dread.
Yep, you're right. I was sourcing DDO Compendium, but it's out of date. I verified in game there is a Dread Curse set augment that can be crafted. Here's a revised version that gains 2 DC, 20 Cold Crit Dmg, and 24 spellpower for devo/sonic/lightning at the cost of 11% Devotion Lore.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/494345098553851918/1006916433973878884/Screen_Shot_2022-08-10_at_9.19.54_AM.png

Requires slotting 14 CHA, 5 INS CHA and 149 Devotion augments.

Not sure what to put on the open Claw augment slot.

For an uber completionist the split would be 41 Stormsinger, 31 Spellsinger (Core 5), 19 Dragonborn (+3 Evo DC), 6 VKF (for Deflect Arrows). Still toying with epic destiny splits, though Primal Avatar mantle is the leading contender.

[Tanky]

It's possible, but it doesn't seem that useful to me, given the cold spells you can actually cast, would still seem better to just take this archetype for the spells and maybe the enhancement tree, and ignore cold and use sonic with electric (draconic). Personally I would still go T5 and 41 in Spellsinger, no way I am giving up heal and mass hold.

I would have to run some numbers, this might be a better 2nd tree than falconry 30% helpless damage.
I understand your strategy to maximize damage through helpless damage. It's a solid approach, and is likely better for questing. But I want something effective for raids too which means maximizing non-helpless damage. Instead of splitting DCs across Enchantment, Illusion and Evocation I'm putting everything into Evo and leaning on Soundburst, Echoes of Discord and BoGW for helpless when needed. I've played a Bard long enough that Heal (and Wail) doesn't matter to my playstyle.

1) Maximize
3) Empower
6) Quicken
9) Heighten
12) Arcane Initiate
15) Spell Focus: Evocation
18) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
21) Inspire Excellence
22) Spellpower Sonic
24) Master of Music
25) Spell Power Lightning
27) Burst of Glacial Wrath
28) Spell Power Cold
30) Intensify, Scion of Air
31) Crush Weakness

14 AP in Primal Avatar for mantle and Ever Green.
36 AP in Fatesinger T5.
13 AP in Draconic (Lightning) for Core 3 and Scales of the Dragon.
--
63 AP

Obviously more AP available if you have the past lives.

Spell points are going to be an issue, which is why there's 20% spellpoint reduction plus 100 temp SP proc built in to enhancements.

BoGW could be swapped out for Master of Water for maximum potential damage, but I like the option of freezing mobs that can't be stunned with Soundburst.

Intensify and Embolden are interchangeable.

[cru121]

I tranferred my level 18 drow spellsinger to Lamannia. Then I LRed into Stormsinger.

char sheet bugged
On the character sheet, on the "Spells" tab, I see two distinct BRD spell lists. One contains only 2 level 1 spells that I selected during character creation. The other contains all my spells.

t5 horn bugged
As others reported, taking Horn of Thunder in Stormsinger locks all tier 5 enhancements.

Reverberate not Sonic
Reverberate does not benefit from Enhanced Bolt III (Stormsinger 5th core) - no increase in caster level. Probably straight copy of Niac's Biting Cold, i.e. the spell is not marked as Sonic. That said, I could see Cold added to the core ability.

Stormstrike damage too low
You help Cultist with Storm Strike! But only for 70, 75, 79, 106, 109 damage.
Considering that with lvl 18 core, the ability should deal 1d6+4 electric damage per caster level, and my caster level=20, the average that I should see is ~150, and that's with 0 spell power. My electric spell power was around 140.

Possible culprits being:
- spell power ignored
- undocumented caster level cap
- undocumented saving throw
- simply bugged

[cru121]

Another observation: Spellsinger and Stormsinger SLAs share cooldown.

CLW SLA shares cooldown with Sonic Blast.
Reverberate SLA shares cooldown with Niac's Biting Cold.
Shout SLA shares cooldown with Snowball Swarm.

I have not tried other combinations. Kinda defeats the purpose of taking multiple SLAs if you cannot use them.

[Aelonwy]

Horn of thunder is counting for both Spellsinger and Stormsinger and preventing filling out T5s.

I tried it both ways. Spending on Horn of Thunder in either tree prevents spending further in T5 of whichever tree you chose. Nasty bug.

[Lynnabel]

Howdy all, happy Wednesday, its time for a quick Bugfix Roundup!

Note that nothing here is meant to be an adjustment to this archetype's design - that part comes later - this is all just bugs getting squished.

Bugs fixed so far (and therefore do not need to be reported):

reverberate is now properly a sonic spell not a cold spell
reverberate now does initial damage on tic
SLAs in stormsinger no longer share cooldowns
taking t5 horn of thunder no longer breaks everything


If you see a bug that's not on this list, let me know! Happy testing :)

[kmoustakas]

Howdy all! Please be sure to check out both the Producer's Letter (https://www.ddo.com/news/ddo-producers-letter-august-2022) and the Archetype Overview (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533554-U56-Preview-1-Archetype-Overview?p=6532222#post6532222) page before diving in here :)

Changes from Base Class

Spellbook:
Spell Level 1:
Added: Shocking Grasp
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 2:
Added: Electric Loop
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 3:
Added: Lightning Bolt
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 4:
Added: Ball Lightning
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 5:
Added: Chain Lightning
Removed: n/a

Spell Level 6:
Added: Thunderstroke
Removed: n/a

Past Life
Stormsinger: +5 Lightning and Sonic Spellpower per stack

New Tree: Stormsinger
Replaces Swashbuckler

Themes: Lightning and sonic damage, thunder, offensive spellcasting

Summary: Harness the thunderstorms to bring elemental destruction to your enemies.

Core Abilities

Core 1: Stormsinger: You gain +5 Lightning, +5 Cold, and +5 Sonic Spellpower per core ability you take in this tree.

Core 3: Lightning Strike: Your Sonic and Cold spells have a 20% chance to cause a massive Lightning Strike whenever they hit an enemy. This lightning strike deals an extra 1d6 Electric damage per caster level.

Core 6: Enhanced Bolt I: Your Lightning Strike damage is upgraded to deal 1d6+2 Electric damage per caster level.

Core 12: Enhanced Bolt I: Your Lightning Strike is upgraded to add 1d3 stacks of Vulnerability when it goes off. The damage is upgraded to 1d6+4.

Core 18: Enhanced Bolt II: Whenever your Lightning Strike goes off, the enemy is Stunned with no save for 3 seconds. +1 Caster Level and Max Caster Level with Sonic + Cold + Electric spells.

Core 20: Master of Storms: +4 Cha, +1 Evocation DCs. Your Lightning Strike now deals 1d6+6 damage per caster level. The stun is upgraded to 5 seconds. +1 Caster Level and Max Caster Level with Sonic + Cold + Electric spells.

Tier 1:

Multiselector: Sonic Blast or Niac's Cold Ray
Musical Refrain: +1/2/3 Bard Songs
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Electrocution: Whenever you cast an Electric or Sonic damage spell, you gain +5 to your Electric and Sonic Spell Power for 6 seconds. This stacks up to 1/3/5 times.
Electric Reflexes: +1/2/3% Dodge


Tier 2:

Multiselector: Reverberate or Niac's Biting Cold
Metamagic Reduction: Maximize or Empower
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Pierce Resistance: You bypass 5/10/15 points of Electric and Sonic Resistance.
Fast Movement: You run 1% faster for each of your Bard levels.


Tier 3:

Multiselector: Shout or Snowball Swarm
Metamagic Reduction: Maximize or Empower
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Stormcaller's Aria: Your Inspire Courage grants nearby allies +2/4/6 more Universal Spellpower and MRR.
+1 Charisma


Tier 4:

Inspire the Storm: Your Bardic Inspiration imbues allies with a chance to deal your Lightning Strike on melee and ranged attacks.
Ride the Lightning: Your main hand weapon is now considered an Implement. When you sing your Soothing Song, it blasts all nearby enemies for your Lightning Strike.
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
(this space intentionally left blank)
+1 Charisma


Tier 5:

Horn of Thunder SLA
(this space intentionally left blank)
Spell Critical: Electric and Cold 2%
Stormcaller: +5/10/15 Electric, Cold, and Sonic Spellpower. Rank 3: You get Iceberg as a spell at level 6.
Storm Studies: +1 Evocation DCs


Spellsinger Notes:

You may notice that this tree shares a few SLAs with Spellsinger - to help we've added multiselectors to Sonic Blast and Shout (Cure Light Wounds and Cure Light Wounds, Mass). You can't take Sonic Blast and Sonic Blast at the same time, same with the other shared SLAs. Also, we buffed Reverberate a bit!

This removing of swashbuckler feels terribad, remove warchanter instead or better yet spellsinger since they actually SHARE abilities and cooldowns. The whole design process here smells faulty and fishy

[cru121]

If you see a bug that's not on this list, let me know! Happy testing :)

Maybe some other things that I reported (https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/533557-Update-56-Preview-1-Stormsinger-Archetype?p=6532787&viewfull=1#post6532787):
- char sheet bugged - 2x BRD on "Spells" tab
- Stormstrike damage does not seem to match description

[Aelonwy]

This removing of swashbuckler feels terribad, remove warchanter instead or better yet spellsinger since they actually SHARE abilities and cooldowns. The whole design process here smells faulty and fishy

Why?

If you are going Stormsinger mostly casting then Spellsinger offers more spell casting support. If you want to mainly melee while being a Stormsinger, then thematically adding the cold/freeze functions of Warchanter also makes sense.

If you want to mainly melee with very little casting at all then regular bard warchanter + swash makes more sense then having any Stormsinger at all.

Now you could argue that having Stormsinger as an alternate bard tree rather than an archetype would have been better and I would agree but that isn't the design direction they went... so given the inherent options of the design Stormsinger replacing Swashbuckler makes the most sense. Perhaps sometime latter we will get something like Arcane Trickster (Bard + Rogue) in which case replacing Spellsinger on an Arcane Trickster would make sense. Because the casting of a trickster is mostly to hide, or distract, or confuse not to do inherent spell dps.

[dogsoldier]

Howdy all, happy Wednesday, its time for a quick Bugfix Roundup!

Note that nothing here is meant to be an adjustment to this archetype's design - that part comes later - this is all just bugs getting squished.

Bugs fixed so far (and therefore do not need to be reported):

reverberate is now properly a sonic spell not a cold spell
reverberate now does initial damage on tic
SLAs in stormsinger no longer share cooldowns
taking t5 horn of thunder no longer breaks everything


If you see a bug that's not on this list, let me know! Happy testing :)

This is cool, so now it may be reasonable to select Shout SLA from Spellsinger, and Snowball Swarm SLA from Stormsinger, if they do not share a cooldown. Same for Reverberate and Niac's Biting Cold. Niac's Cold Ray is pretty weak, but if it doesn't share a cooldown with Sonic Blast from Spellsinger, that may be worth it, assuming you take heighten.

[QuantumFX]

If you see a bug that's not on this list, let me know! Happy testing :)

Tiefling Scoundrels cannot add the new electric spells to their spellbook after lesser TRing into a Stormsinger. Neither the Life-Shaper or the Bard class trainers can help fix the problem.

[Drinkfist]

Why?

If you are going Stormsinger mostly casting then Spellsinger offers more spell casting support. If you want to mainly melee while being a Stormsinger, then thematically adding the cold/freeze functions of Warchanter also makes sense.

If you want to mainly melee with very little casting at all then regular bard warchanter + swash makes more sense then having any Stormsinger at all.


Having Stormsinger and Spellsinger exist on a single character makes the bard the superior magic caster/character class in the game. Capable of the best buffs, Best CC and Highest damage spells with the best element type.

You now have a Spellsinger flying though a room at high speed, regenerating SP with a spread of fully metamagic SLAs that all can proc a high damage lightning bolt that stuns with no save. Insanity.

Before this Spellsingers were just really good. This is just a monster. Its wild they just nerfed the whack caster level stuff going on with Favored Soul AoV cores and just go and open this door over here.

[voxson5]

good stuff

Would it be worthwhile to go dino weapon & alchemical offhand? (assuming you can fit +20% sonic crit damage somewhere), maybe sonic SP & crit/cha +2/water attunement.

FWIW, I quite enjoyed T5 FS/T4 draconic (pull from the wellspring etc) + mantle/SD core 3 & shadowcaster (I ran light armour to use the evasion, saved me a few times).

[Aelonwy]

Having Stormsinger and Spellsinger exist on a single character makes the bard the superior magic caster/character class in the game. Capable of the best buffs, Best CC and Highest damage spells with the best element type.

You now have a Spellsinger flying though a room at high speed, regenerating SP with a spread of fully metamagic SLAs that all can proc a high damage lightning bolt that stuns with no save. Insanity.

Before this Spellsingers were just really good. This is just a monster. Its wild they just nerfed the whack caster level stuff going on with Favored Soul AoV cores and just go and open this door over here.

*shrug* I don't really see it but I'm not a min-maxer. Other spell casting classes get multiple spell support trees, other spell casting classes get up to 9th level spells. Yes bard gets access to a few 9th level spells but they're casting them as 6th level spells. Bards don't get the bonus feats of wizards or as far as I am aware the bonus spell points of sorc/fvs. Bards do get very, very nice buffs. Choice selection of buffs and most of them are meant to be used on a party.

[Lynnabel]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

[Jerevth]

I think it would be a nice expansion to allow selection of Swashbuckler or Spellsinger, but as was pointed out, perhaps a few selectors between the caster trees be made exclusive? (No overlap of same effect, or avoiding the need to nerf a beloved class (Could call it the Choir Nerf in honor of the FvS nerf that's coming).

When you activate the C1 in Stormsinger, you could get a selector for which other tree you'll lock as unused.
If you try and game it by populating Chanter, Spell Singer and Swashbuckler before selecting the Stormsinger C1, it will NOGO and not activate until you clear one or the other?
Not certain if coding and archtype plan concept would support this but it would allow some build diversity for a pure Archtype option...

[Tanky]

Would it be worthwhile to go dino weapon & alchemical offhand? (assuming you can fit +20% sonic crit damage somewhere), maybe sonic SP & crit/cha +2/water attunement.

FWIW, I quite enjoyed T5 FS/T4 draconic (pull from the wellspring etc) + mantle/SD core 3 & shadowcaster (I ran light armour to use the evasion, saved me a few times).
Alchemical offhand doesn't really net you anything. You're trading 20 Sonic Crit Dmg and the sonic proc for +1 DC. Not a great choice IMO.

T5 Fatesinger/T4 Draconic makes more sense if you're only focusing on sonic/lightning. Considering I don't like any of the cold spells aside from Iceberg, that might be the way to go. Dropping the 35 Cold Crit Dmg, you could shift gear around to gain +5 evocation DC and +1 CHA (so a possible 6th DC):

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/494345098553851918/1007315662777098250/Screen_Shot_2022-08-11_at_11.50.55_AM.png

Considering how much I want to lean on Soundburst for on-demand CC I think that's a better way to go. You'd go with Draconic Mantle. Drop BogW for Wellspring since you have T4 Draconic, and Intensify for Embolden:

1) Maximize
3) Empower
6) Quicken
9) Heighten
12) Arcane Initiate
15) Spell Focus: Evocation
18) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
21) Inspire Excellence
22) Spellpower Sonic
24) Master of Music
25) Spell Power Lightning
27) Wellspring of Power
28) Spell Power Cold
30) Embolden, Scion of Air
31) Crush Weakness

This is all back-of-the-napkin since Stormsinger isn't functional enough to test spell rotations this Lam. Essentially, this becomes very similar to EinarMal's approach of primarily focusing on sonic/lightning.

The gear shift also opens up 3 items for an augment set.

[QuantumFX]

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



The only thing I don't like about this is that this works for the Stormsinger/Spellsinger caster bards, but stripping these abilities hurts potential Stormsinger Warchanter builds. Perhaps adding them as addons to Warchanter cores would help?

ex.
Fighting Spirit grants Improved Inspire Courage +1
Victory Song grants Improved Inspire Courage +2
Skaldic Scream grants Improved Inspire Courage +3, and grants Inspiration Melody: Heroics if you have the Improved Bardic Music Feat
Chant of Power 3 grants Ballad Melody: Greatness

This would give Bard Warchanters earlier access to everything, and Swashbuckler. For Stormsinger Warchanters they have the ability to go guilt free into medium armor and cold + lightning weapons.

[droid327]

We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.

Still think you should just make it replace Warchanter instead of Swashbuckler. That cuts out a big chunk of party support efficacy, and lets the "DPS Bard" fall somewhere between pure caster DPS and hybrid melee-caster DPS, which would align it nicely with either Fatesinger or Primal Avatar in Epics.

Alternatively, you could take the various healing bonuses out of Stormsinger's version of Spellsinger and replace them with something more offensive...losing healing efficacy would definitely create a divide in rolespace between the two Bard subtypes

[NightHiker]

I've posted this on the Discord server, but thought it would be good to add it here just in case, as it's the official channel for such things.

Some suggestions for Stormsinger:

I've been thinking about the archetype, and thought that since the theme is not just sonic+electric+cold, but also STORM related, that it would be fitting to have some spells from both arcane and druid lists that are more closely related to the storm theme than some pure electric spells. So looking at those lists, I see three spells that I think could be added to the Stormsinger's spell list (one way to do it could be making them available in cores 2, 4 and 6, for example):

Gust of Wind: Fits the winds from a storm forming theme and can add some CC component for lower levels plus QoL cloud clearer for higher levels, allowing the Stormsinger to have both the power to call storms and to "end" them. Level 2.

Sleetstorm - Again fits the storm theme and is a pretty interesting option since bards have FoM on their spellbooks or on their songs if taking the spellsinger lines. Even if for Stormsingers it comes at a higher level spell than 3, it might be quite useful. Level 3 or 4.

Ice Storm - again, self-explanatory in the storm, evocation CC theme, could be level 5.

The fact those spells all have some CC component also would make up some for losing mass hold in case one chooses to go with Stormsinger's T5, and it makes Stormsinger a full on evocation CCer instead of evocation/enchantment, making it more streamlined if a bit less versatile.

None of these spells are game breaking or op, they just add some more flavor to the Archetype, in my view, also adding better support for the cold side of it.

Fitting the storm theme there's also Call Lightning, Stormrage and Storm of Vengeance, but those are close enough to the Lightning Strike effect to be thematically covered already, I think.

Now, in line with Lynnabel's take that Stormsinger needs to lose something, what I wholehearted agree with, together with adding those spells, be it in the spell book automatically or thru cores or even as SLAs, I'd advocate for a loss of all the enchantment spells that are CC related (charms, holds, dancing, suggestion, etc) and really go all in on the evocation CC theme instead of Enchantment. It would be a good trade off (as long as they get those and maybe other cold spells compared to regular bards) and fits the theme very well in a sense that in order to get the ability to better control inanimate natural elements they kinda lose most of their ability to control animate/live beings' minds. There's still the issue of having Hold Mass in Tier 5 Spellsinger. That could stay as an exception for the investment on another tree, as it's T5 and prevents Stormsinger T5 anyways, and would require to keep the investment on enchantment DCs just for that spell - if someone decides to do all that for just one spell, I feel it's ok to keep it if they want to.

Cheers,
NH

[Lynnabel]

I've posted this on the Discord server, but thought it would be good to add it here just in case, as it's the official channel for such things.

Discord isn't a good place to put feedback if you want your feedback to be seen, it needs to be in an official place such as the forums. I haven't been in Discord for quite some time.

[Jerevth]

I apologize if I missed these being mentioned previously:

- Spellsinger C2 only raised the DC of the Stormsinger SLA T1 (Sonic Blast). The Tier 2 and Tier 3 SLAs (Niac's Biting Cold, Shout) did not increase.

- Spell Singer Violet Marigold Crown (T2) and C2, C3 did not raise the DC for the above SLAs, either.

Rereading the proposed removals you outlined (Lynn), OK, but perhaps throw us a bone for a couple replacements that are thematic for Stormsinger, instead?
I like the lightning being shared with others in the party; perhaps some more martial applications?
-Warriors' Chant: (Unified strikes- increases melee attack speed orstrikethrough ordamage (in place of Aria)?

But losing bardic feats from the level advancement is a steep reduction. Even a reduction in spell point cost or a once per rest T5 like ability?

edit Ride the lightning doesn't work- I cast soothing song, no buff on the top line, nothing in the examine window and no lightning when smacking the kobold around. (Poor kobold.)

[Lotoc]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

So is core 4 of warchanter just kinda only 10hp for a stormsinger bard with this change?
I'm kind of more in favor of losing some of the enchantment spells from the spell list leaning more into the evocation focus, losing the Otto's dance spells perhaps

[NightHiker]

I'm kind of more in favor of losing some of the enchantment spells from the spell list leaning more into the evocation focus, losing the Otto's dance spells perhaps

Agreed. I think losing all the enchantment CC options instead of the inspiration buffs might be a good enough trade off, making Stormsinger a DPS/evocation CC Archetype. But if needed I can take losing the buffs and then losing the enchantmet spells to justify getting spells like Gust of Wind, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm and etc. If possible it could even modify the Hold Mass from T5 Spellsinger to do something else if you are a Stormsinger, or if not just plain disable it.

Cheers,
NH

[GramercyRiff]

Why play this over Sorcerer? I understand taking away the songs for balance, but doing this takes away what makes a Bard a Bard. Now it's just a Sorcerer but without what makes a Sorcerer great.

I like that subclasses will be a thing, but I'm not crazy about the three subclasses we get. Not a great start to what should be a great addition to the game.

[dogsoldier]

I don't think nerfing the Bard feat progression is necessary for Stormsinger.

As it has been proposed, you have the choice of either getting most of the Bard buffs from the trees (spellsong vigor, sustaining song, song of heroism, fighting spirit, recklessness), and just picking up a few things from Stormsinger, or going T5 Stormsinger, with the rest of your points in Spellsinger, not much room for many poionts in Warchanter, which already guts your buffs significantly.

[Seph1roth5]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

Hmm....it's pretty close but I think it's a pretty good balance of stuff lost to stuff gained. It's hard because bard gets a bajillion things but if that list of feats is really all they're losing AND stormsinger doesn't get nerfed a lot, it's a good fit.

Ride the Lightning - Should really be something to do with riding lightning, it's too bad horn of thunder is so cool or I'd say replace it with a lightning bolt/wing combo...

[Tanky]

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.


You've just deleted what makes a Bard unique in DDO. RIP.

[btolson]

I'm not sure why I'd ever want to play this, beyond getting the new PLs.

It can be played like an air sorc, except worse because:
1) bards don't get anywhere close to as many spellpoints
2) worse AOE potential, esp at high levels
3) no wings ability
4) no immunity bypass

It can be played like an EK except worse because:
1) WC is terrible compared to EK. Like where do I even begin.

So. What's the point?

[Arjen]

I'm not sure why I'd ever want to play this, beyond getting the new PLs.

It can be played like an air sorc, except worse because:
1) bards don't get anywhere close to as many spellpoints
2) worse AOE potential, esp at high levels
3) no wings ability
4) no immunity bypass

It can be played like an EK except worse because:
1) WC is terrible compared to EK. Like where do I even begin.

So. What's the point?

No doubt - totally lost interest in this now.

[Axcarth]

Why play this over Sorcerer? I understand taking away the songs for balance, but doing this takes away what makes a Bard a Bard. Now it's just a Sorcerer but without what makes a Sorcerer great.

I like that subclasses will be a thing, but I'm not crazy about the three subclasses we get. Not a great start to what should be a great addition to the game.

This!^ Exactly what I was thinking when I saw the songs feats nerf.



I'm not sure why I'd ever want to play this, beyond getting the new PLs.

It can be played like an air sorc, except worse because:
1) bards don't get anywhere close to as many spellpoints
2) worse AOE potential, esp at high levels
3) no wings ability
4) no immunity bypass

It can be played like an EK except worse because:
1) WC is terrible compared to EK. Like where do I even begin.

So. What's the point?

And this exactly!^
You have turned a good niche idea into some terrible bad air savant sorc ish spawn.
Yesterday: weeeee, got to try this!
Today: What?! Not gonna happen!

Mates, bards are their songs!!! bards are performance! (and not just for sonic sp), they give the inspiration and the encouragement to face the challenges that the campaign brings along. So, leave the songs how they are and go kill another class!

[EinarMal]

Agreed. I think losing all the enchantment CC options instead of the inspiration buffs might be a good enough trade off, making Stormsinger a DPS/evocation CC Archetype. But if needed I can take losing the buffs and then losing the enchantmet spells to justify getting spells like Gust of Wind, Sleet Storm, Ice Storm and etc. If possible it could even modify the Hold Mass from T5 Spellsinger to do something else if you are a Stormsinger, or if not just plain disable it.

Cheers,
NH

Yeah I agree with this, lose all the enchantment spells from the spell book, but keep the bard buffs. Agree that if you lose the bard buffs you are just a crappy sorc.

[Seph1roth5]

Uhh I don't think people understand what archetypes do/are for lol. They're not just adding stuff to a class, they're giving up some stuff for something else. Damage, healing, tankiness, buffs, etc. Give up some of one to get some of another.

If you want to be a pure electric blaster than yeah, air sorc. Stormsinger will be high blastiness but also have heals, buffs (you can still get a lot in spellsinger ya know) and other differences.

Getting a good balance of what you give up/what you get is hard but I think this is good. Giving up enchantment spells to get evo would've been fine too I suppose, but then isn't that also being less of a bard?

[Thar]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

this kills this as a bard if songs aren't any good. Thats the basis of the bard class. The cleric archtype can still heal right?

neft bat it in another way.

the pally is already a garbage pally without the buff spells. The cleric version loses healing for free and domains.

[Rexis]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

I can agree that any archetype needs to be giving up some parts of the base kit to justify other things but I'd also agree with others when they say that moving these feats takes away something core to Bards. I'd vote that if Storm Singer wants to focus on Evocation then removing Enchantment type spells from Bard's spell list might be a better start to swap with. An alternate ability might be to have a think about letting the swap be with the Spell Singer tree instead which would leave the class with two major trees to base their choices around while still having a core amount of buffs to use (which makes Bard feel like Bard). I've also seen suggestions that the feats be attached to core abilities of one of the enhancement trees instead, Warchanter perhaps? If its down to a vote mine would be to have the damage of Storm singer's spells take the place of the Enchantment spells Bard has access too over chipping away at the core buffs Bard brings to the table, or failing that something else like Spell Singer's buffs since the two trees already have some kind of overlap between them.

[dogsoldier]

I would prefer if we gave up some of what Stormsinger provides, rather than giving up song bonuses.

And that would probably be better longterm, since this is already getting nerf calls from players/devs before it even gets released. Tone it down a bit now, and perhaps we can avoid getting the whole "Famous Bowl" style of nerfs that FvS and Cleric are getting in the future.

[Shedrakzo]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

Agreeing with others. This is a neat idea, but removing the Bardic Aria portions make any synergy this might have for Warchanter completely moot. The suggestion to add these features as core parts of Warchanter could help fix this.

Additionally, with the change to Iced Edges to scale with spellpower, can the base enhancement scaling be changed to 1d6/2d6/3d6 to get a bit more value from this ability? The old scaling reflects DDO back during the initial enhancement pass, though not current DDO.

It'd also be neat if Warchanter could get their own crit bonuses separate from Swashbuckler as well. A +1 threat range and +1 multiplier to non-swash weapons, perhaps?

Also, can the forced animation from Boast be removed or reduced? A 5 second animation lock is painful in a game where we are constantly moving, using levers, climbing ladders, etc. If the animation is broken in any form currently (being stunned, tumbling, climbing, etc.) you don't actually gain the temp HP and still lose a bard song.

Finally, is there a chance that Inspire Storm could apply to your own attacks? This adds back in some value for Warchanter buff/damage builds. If this is intended, it wasn't working during this preview.

[voxson5]

I'd rather you change the removed tree from swash to spellsinger, than to remove core bard mechanics

[btolson]

I'm not sure why I'd ever want to play this, beyond getting the new PLs.

It can be played like an air sorc, except worse because:
1) bards don't get anywhere close to as many spellpoints
2) worse AOE potential, esp at high levels
3) no wings ability
4) no immunity bypass

It can be played like an EK except worse because:
1) WC is terrible compared to EK. Like where do I even begin.

So. What's the point?


Uhh I don't think people understand what archetypes do/are for lol. They're not just adding stuff to a class, they're giving up some stuff for something else. Damage, healing, tankiness, buffs, etc. Give up some of one to get some of another.

If you want to be a pure electric blaster than yeah, air sorc. Stormsinger will be high blastiness but also have heals, buffs (you can still get a lot in spellsinger ya know) and other differences.



But like what, specifically? How do you see this archetype actually playing? Can you envision using anything but SLAs?
Bards get 525 spellpoints at L20.
Sorcs get 1730 + 2x bonus spellpoints (In fact, Sorcs have more base SP by level 8 than a bard does by 20).
Tradeoffs are of course necessary and fine, but I see a lot of limitations holding it back.

I'm fine with stormsinger losing the bard songs btw, that's not what my prior post was aimed at. But bear in mind bards were designed with low magical potential because their songs were meant to make up the difference. Different spend mechanics.


It would have made some sense to spend songs to unleash your Storm Power instead of making it all SP-based maybe? Like a Stormsinger that actually sings to create storms. But then you need a lot more (regenenerating) songs somewhere.


Don't forget, none of what Stormsinger gets is free, not even the bonus spells. I'd be shocked if anyone ever takes Lightning Ball cuz there are just so many important spells at level 4 and bard slots are very limited. Which of the 6 bonus spells do you think you'll actually take? Which ones will you actually cast regularly due to limited SP pool?


Most of the talk here is about balance, but balance doesn't really correlate to "Purpose" or "Playability". This seems like it's trying to do too much beyond what the core class envisioned without a solution to overcome it. I think the actual playstyle here will involve a lot of standing around doing nothing except waiting for SLAs to come off cooldown, or trying to melee with a tree that's truly terrible as a main melee tree. Especially in the low/mid levels when you barely have any SP at all, bard was never intended to nuke prior to this. In epics it'll probably do OK, but that's because destinies mostly invalidate heroic choices.

As for "Purpose"... is it just flavor? Like handwrap shifter barbs? Not actually intended to be great, just intended to exist for flavor? Maybe that's OK if so, but I'd like to know upfront if that's the case.

Somebody sell me on this. Am I missing something?

[btolson]

Some other thoughts:

Other Bonus spells they should have access to: Gust of Wind, Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm, Solid Fog, Ice Storm, Cyclonic Blast.
These are just options to pick from when leveling up that weigh against your limited slots, not free autogrants, so there's no reason not to add a whole bunch of them. I use some of these on a sorc, not sure if I'd ever use them on a stormsinger where SP is so precious but maybe someone would. Options are good right?


Ranged Damage (shortbow support only, maybe) seems more thematically fit to pair with Stormsinger than current WC. Shooting off arrows of lightning and using hurricane-force winds to guide your arrows to devastating effect. Much more synergistic flavor. Maybe some space in stormsinger for these types of bonuses/abilities, and some retooling of WC to work with ranged better (and some retooling of WC in general, cuz it stinks).

[mikarddo]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

That looks like a very fine compromise. If you want to be more a caster bard you get to buff slightly less. Slightly, because you still have the most important stuff like healing song, FoM song etc.

I see others suggesting instead to remove enchantment spells - but that would be a horrible idea imho. If you want to be more a caster bard you dont remove caster bard effects, obviously.

I am looking forward to trying Stormsinger.

[Grugmak]

So far I love the idea of these archetypes, I really like where you're going with them (them being similar to the elf/wood elf situation) where you get new build capabilities without having to really add a whole new class and mess up the completionist thing any more than it already is. They all need at least some minor work, but this one is the only one I can't really get behind so far. You're essentially making another spellsinger with extremely neutered buffing capability, no regen or SP regen song and instead of doing pure sonic damage (which already synergizes with various EDs and the mastery of x feats extremely well, not to mention having almost nothing immune or even resistant to it) now does cold (with a crapton of things that are either immune or ~50% resistant to) or lightning which admittedly is good, but you get 0 electric SLAs and bard has a very limited SP pool compared with other casting classes. Not to mention you are now having to pretty much focus on 3-4 different spellpowers/crits to make the most out of your casting ability (sonic/electric/cold/positive).

You then put this in place of swashbuckler leaving spellsinger which admittedly synergizes fairly well, and warchanter which does not synergize *at all* as your alternate trees. I agree with many of the earlier posts that this is basically a weaker lightning sorc and that's it.

Seeing as how bard is a hybrid style class with a unique song mechanic and you've basically just removed their light melee tree in the interest of creating yet another pure caster on a class with the lowest SP pool why not give it either a hybrid or specialization option and utilize the songs more?

Suggestions I would make:

1) Remove CC song options for this archetype, replace them with either channeled AOE, Instant AOE or Fire and Forget (implosion/wail proc over time style) AOE songs that do significant cold/sonic/electric damage DC based on perform skill scaling off a single spellpower or purely off perform skill converted as a form of spellpower with added effects as you see fit. - with this option add a means of faster song regen to go along with anthem

2) Revamp Inspire/Ballad songs and possibly add enhancements in the tree with multiselectors to make you able to synergize more with spellsinger (active buff, casting oriented, focused on the target) on inspire or warchanter (passive/always on, melee oriented, PBAOE on the bard) on ballad since both of these trees already focus on these 2 song types in this fashion OR you could completely reverse them and make stormsinger enhancements to inspire be the meleeish style active buff and ballad be the caster oriented pbaoe passive, the choice is yours.

3) Give a melee style selector option alongside the SLAs that fit the theme of the tree/archetype to include an option for a 2HF, 2WF or SWF selection that then locks you into that weapon style for the future tiers of these multiselectors, then give each weapon style its own theme to match the spirit of the archetype (just random spitballing on these: SWF be sonic based and gives some kind of proccing sonic damage or boost to cast spells off the proc and can proc your lightning strike (this is a proc on proc situation so obviously will trigger lightning strike less than pure casting), 2WF lightning themed, procs the lightning strike fairly frequently (2WF needs some love these days) at about the same rate you would get from pure casting (not same % base but same rough procs per minute casting as meleeing), and 2HF being a cold themed setup that runs in a similar vein to the warchanter cold attack styles can occasionally proc the lightning strike) any added damage/procs scale with the related spellpower - with these you can still leave the cores that are already listed as-is. Make the T5 version of this multiselector tree be an expanded crit range/multiplier that matches with the chosen melee style. To provide an example of what I'm talking about under this suggestion the T1 SLA multiselector would now have 1 of 5 choices: sonic blast SLA, niacs SLA, SWF melee style T1, 2WF melee style T1, 2HF melee style T1 and choosing any of the melee styles locks the multiselector for the following tiers to only allow that melee styles T2,T3,etc to be taken.

I mostly tried to make these suggestions to either fix the small SP pool problem or return the hybridized theme of bard back to the class rather than just giving another purely caster focused setup, these changes are also all possible to implement with the current tree setup almost as it is while giving you the option to hybridize or specialize as you choose and open up a whole lot of build options. As to the song revamps I wanted to make a suggestion that will make stormsinger songs completely different from vanilla bard songs so neither is "just better" than the other but they can both still maintain that support buffer role without negating/overwriting eachother if you have a bard and a stormsinger in the party.

[EinarMal]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

Actually I think this is a good approach to the trade off.

[Jerevth]

Actually I think this is a good approach to the trade off.

It removes 2 class based feats without providing alternate gains in order to avoid making a class OP.
It would be better balancing to bring the Swashbuckler tree in and remove the spell singer, or modify the Storm singer and provide alternative feats to replace the two being removed, and still give value.
This is a new concept, and there will be (hopefully) lessons learned.

I didn't look at the other two trees to compare them to the original Bard enhancement Templates: were they changed some, too or are they identical and only Stormsinger is new?
If the templates were adjusted, that would be a better route than adjusting the underlying BARD foundation, I think.

[Aelonwy]

Actually I think this is a good approach to the trade off.

Doesn't bother me. So pure bard is a better buffer but has less spell selection via DPS options. That works for me, so a Stormsinger could go all spell caster if they wanted or elec/cold melee + situational casting. This does mean some people will prefer to exclude Stormsingers in favor of traditional bards from raid parties... just so people are aware of how this will likely play out in game on occasion. It doesn't bother me but I rarely raid.

[Aelonwy]

It removes 2 class based feats without providing alternate gains in order to avoid making a class OP.
It would be better balancing to bring the Swashbuckler tree in and remove the spell singer, or modify the Storm singer and provide alternative feats to replace the two being removed, and still give value.
This is a new concept, and there will be (hopefully) lessons learned.

I didn't look at the other two trees to compare them to the original Bard enhancement Templates: were they changed some, too or are they identical and only Stormsinger is new?
If the templates were adjusted, that would be a better route than adjusting the underlying BARD foundation, I think.

I'd rather loose either warchanter or swashbuckler like an either/or choice made at character creation. I personally would rather pair Stormsinger with Spellsinger (1st choice) or Warchanter (2nd choice) but I understand some people wanting the option of swash. Either way I'd be spending some points in Feydark.

[NightHiker]

This does mean some people will prefer to exclude Stormsingers in favor of traditional bards from raid parties... just so people are aware of how this will likely play out in game on occasion.

This is the one thing that worries me, because of the fact that archetypes will still show as the regular classes on the LFM panel and related features. I can see it being a source of grief if someone accepts a "bard" in a raid group because of the buffs, only to find out afterwards that they're stormsingers. I can see people getting kicked out by less than cavalier group leaders because of that. It's one reason I'd refrain from taking the buffs out, and instead go the route of removing the enchantment CC options, as many more people here also agreed on (while, again, fitting well with the theme: wanna control an inanimate force of nature? Well, that demands dedication and will leave less room to learn how to influence and control living beings' minds). Give them the storm related spells mentioned above to give them some soft CC options, but take away all charms, dancing and holds.

I'd also like to see the archetype modifying the songs to get rid of fascinate and like effects from the base class or the spellsinger trees to do something environmental related instead as well, but I realize that can be a lot of extra work. Then, again, I guess that's what early previews are for. There's already changes to the spellsinger tree to accomodate Stormsinger SLAs, so just go one step further and change/remove the enchantment effects in case of stormsinger or, if there's no tech for that, just add other options for them as mutiselectors.

There's some merit on the comments about Stormsingers having issues with spell points as well - maybe one way of fixing that is to give them some sort of temp mana procs on spell casting in the tree or maybe using songs to recover mana instead of fascinating mobs if stormsinger - like some sort of lightning rod absorbing mana from the atmosphere (one way to reinforce the theme of pure caster while minimizing the sp usage issue).

Cheers,
NH

[mikarddo]

This is the one thing that worries me, because of the fact that archetypes will still show as the regular classes on the LFM panel and related features. I can see it being a source of grief if someone accepts a "bard" in a raid group because of the buffs, only to find out afterwards that they're stormsingers. I can see people getting kicked out by less than cavalier group leaders because of that. It's one reason I'd refrain from taking the buffs out, and instead go the route of removing the enchantment CC options, as many more people here also agreed on (while, again, fitting well with the theme: wanna control an inanimate force of nature? Well, that demands dedication and will leave less room to learn how to influence and control living beings' minds). Give them the storm related spells mentioned above to give them some soft CC options, but take away all charms, dancing and holds.



I very much beg to differ. Unless I am misunderstanding the reduction healing song, fom song, manasong and many other buffs are not removed. Sure, the buffs removed matter - but more often have I seen a group want a bard for disco (THTH or VoD) so your argument could just as well go towards being kicked out for not having CC.

So, very much do not remove the CC from the bard - removing the buffs that Lynn has suggested is much better as far as I am concerned.

[NightHiker]

Sure, the buffs removed matter - but more often have I seen a group want a bard for disco (THTH or VoD) so your argument could just as well go towards being kicked out for not having CC.

There are other classes that can do that kind of CC you're talking about, though. You don't need bards necessarily or specifically for those things. However, there are no alternatives to the bard buffs in other classes.

Also, you'd not be completely removing CC from bards - you'd just be changing/reinforcing the theme - out go enchantment, in come more evocation based alternatives, if we add sleet and ice storm, gust of wind and solid fog. Which also gives more support for the cold side of the Archetype which is important for generating the electric damage procs together with the sonic ones.

EDIT: by the way, this comes from someone who has been playing sonic/electric/cold bards for more than ten lives in a row now - with soundburst, sonic blast and g shout, and also if you take into account BoGW, even if you ignore the holds and balls you still have plenty of CC options that inclusive work on things holds and balls don't. So I'd much rather lose some CC options that can be filled in by other classes than lose something only this class can provide.

EDIT 2: That said, IF just losing the enchantment spells is not enough of a hindrance, I'm willing to lose the buffs as well as long as we get those other cold/evocation spells to complement the spell book and/or tree. I love mass holds and dancing balls and use them a lot, but I think the other spells fit the theme better, so I'd be ok with this trade off together with the added DPS.

Cheers,
NH

[Axcarth]

There are other classes that can do that kind of CC you're talking about, though. You don't need bards necessarily or specifically for those things. However, there are no alternatives to the bard buffs in other classes.
...

This^! It really feels like if you're getting the traps mechanics off the Rogue Archetype to turn it into a fighter-ish. I mean, that is not all that they can do, but it's definitly part of their core.


... It would have made some sense to spend songs to unleash your Storm Power instead of making it all SP-based maybe? Like a Stormsinger that actually sings to create storms. But then you need a lot more (regenenerating) songs somewhere.
...


This makes all the sense in the world to me! This is Bard class what we are talking about, right? Make bards perform, make the songs bring the storm!!! Why to stick on the spell points mechanics when Bards have an unique system that can be further and better developed?

[NightHiker]

This makes all the sense in the world to me! This is Bard class what we are talking about, right? Make bards perform, make the songs bring the storm!!! Why to stick on the spell points mechanics when Bards have an unique system that can be further and better developed?

I'd love that - but aside for a better way to regenerate songs they'd have to get rid of their long winding animation for it to be actually useful on most questing scenarios. It's all probably more work than they're willing to do for an Archetype, though. Hope I'm wrong.

EDIT: one way to get this worked in the archetype thematically but that wouldn't change actual gameplay much is to have the "Lightning Strike" proc tied to a long duration song. At least this way you get the "make songs bring the storm" idea, and it also justifies the "alies getting the proc" portion as well. And if it's just once in a while the long animation to get it going would not be much of an issue.

EDIT 2: In any case, having songs in those new trees that proc new long duration area effects, whatever they are, seems to be a pretty good way to inject some new life into all kinds of possible bard archetypes and fits pretty well with the overall class idea. I'd look into changing as many of those enhancements in Stormsinger to be attached to songs, same way we have many buffs tied to songs on Spellsinger.

For example, a song that gives cold, sonic and electric resist and/or absorption in a radius around the bard would be something that fits the Archetype pretty well and gives something to enhance the flavor besides just dps, dps, dps. Same thing with a song that gives the same vulnerabilities to enemies - maybe as the other side of a multiselector.

Cheers,
NH

[Axcarth]

I'd love that - but aside for a better way to regenerate songs they'd have to get rid of their long winding animation for it to be actually useful on most questing scenarios. It's all probably more work than they're willing to do for an Archetype, though. Hope I'm wrong.

EDIT: one way to get this worked in the archetype thematically but that wouldn't change actual gameplay much is to have the "Lightning Strike" proc tied to a long duration song. At least this way you get the "make songs bring the storm" idea, and it also justifies the "alies getting the proc" portion as well. And if it's just once in a while the long animation to get it going would not be much of an issue.

EDIT 2: In any case, having songs in those new trees that proc new long duration area effects, whatever they are, seems to be a pretty good way to inject some new life into all kinds of possible bard archetypes and fits pretty well with the overall class idea. I'd look into changing as many of those enhancements in Stormsinger to be attached to songs, same way we have many buffs tied to songs on Spellsinger.

For example, a song that gives cold, sonic and electric resist and/or absorption in a radius around the bard would be something that fits the Archetype pretty well and gives something to enhance the flavor besides just dps, dps, dps. Same thing with a song that gives the same vulnerabilities to enemies - maybe as the other side of a multiselector.

Cheers,
NH

Great ideas! I hope some of these "resonate" on Devs.

[kmoustakas]

Why?

If you are going Stormsinger mostly casting then Spellsinger offers more spell casting support. If you want to mainly melee while being a Stormsinger, then thematically adding the cold/freeze functions of Warchanter also makes sense.

If you want to mainly melee with very little casting at all then regular bard warchanter + swash makes more sense then having any Stormsinger at all.

Now you could argue that having Stormsinger as an alternate bard tree rather than an archetype would have been better and I would agree but that isn't the design direction they went... so given the inherent options of the design Stormsinger replacing Swashbuckler makes the most sense. Perhaps sometime latter we will get something like Arcane Trickster (Bard + Rogue) in which case replacing Spellsinger on an Arcane Trickster would make sense. Because the casting of a trickster is mostly to hide, or distract, or confuse not to do inherent spell dps.

What I've been doing is spellsinger 41, swashbuckler 12 for uncanny dodge, deflect arrows, bard speed, orb stance (and some awesome bonuses to balizarde), the rest either in feywild or racial tree. Both uncanny dodge and deflect arrows reduce deaths in r10 by quite a bit.

[Kalapurka]

@lynn

Can you buff a little bit the warchanter tree, like you did with the battlepriest tree on the cleric pass that you guys are doing.

[Aelonwy]

What I've been doing is spellsinger 41, swashbuckler 12 for uncanny dodge, deflect arrows, bard speed, orb stance (and some awesome bonuses to balizarde), the rest either in feywild or racial tree. Both uncanny dodge and deflect arrows reduce deaths in r10 by quite a bit.

Hadn't tried that, I was leaning into what it would be like to make a Main tree Stormsinger. So 41 Stormsinger, 3rd core spellsinger for some more utility and extra evocation DC ending with Spellsong Trance at 13 AP, just enough in Feydark for cha to hit/dmg and You've Got my Back, the rest in Warchanter, T3 Frozen Fury at least. It was sort of neat freezing and frying things. I did miss the fast movement and deflect arrows from swash... and I don't know about the deflect arrows but if this tree is replacing Swash it really ought to include the Bard Fast movement option too. My feeling is... its still thematic because lightning is fast, the Flash gives off electricity as he runs (I know different genre but still), & isn't the Monk Wind/Elec stance about speed too?

Forgot to say my Spellsinger on live is 41 Spellsinger, equal parts Feydark and Inquisitive because she's mainly about CC and doesn't do much damage by herself. She's support for hubby and kids. I also have a swash bard but she doesn't put anything in SS past getting Magical Training.

[NightHiker]

... and I don't know about the deflect arrows but if this tree is replacing Swash it really ought to include the Bard Fast movement option too.

It already has the bard fast movement one in the second tier. It doesn't have deflect arrows or uncanny dodge, though. I guess deflect arrows would still thematically fit as well, since one could deflect them with a gust of wind, but we can't have it all, I suppose. I have played a bit with Swash on my Spellsinger as the third three for those exact same things, but in the end decided to go with Falconry for the helpless damage, since I make stuff helpless all the time. Been enjoying the added damage more than I miss the defenses. I think for a hybrid melee/caster build Swash could still make sense for a Stormsinger, but the main idea here seems to still be a caster, so Spellsinger adds more to the pot than Swash in my view. I guess to each their own.

With Stormsinger I'll possibly forfeit Falconry and go either 41 spellsinger/ 31 Stormsinger or the other way around, figuring the loss of helpless damage will be more than made up for with the added regular dps. Will have to test things out, though.

Cheers,
NH

[Aelonwy]

It already has the bard fast movement one in the second tier. It doesn't have deflect arrows or uncanny dodge, though. I guess deflect arrows would still thematically fit as well, since one could deflect them with a gust of wind, but we can't have it all, I suppose. I have played a bit with Swash on my Spellsinger as the third three for those exact same things, but in the end decided to go with Falconry for the helpless damage, since I make stuff helpless all the time. Been enjoying the added damage more than I miss the defenses. I think for a hybrid melee/caster build Swash could still make sense for a Stormsinger, but the main idea here seems to still be a caster, so Spellsinger adds more to the pot than Swash in my view. I guess to each their own.

With Stormsinger I'll possibly forfeit Falconry and go either 41 spellsinger/ 31 Stormsinger or the other way around, figuring the loss of helpless damage will be more than made up for with the added regular dps. Will have to test things out, though.

Cheers,
NH

I must have missed it when I was filling points out for spellcasting effects and lightning strikage. It was the one I indicated above, I did only get on to test one character with Stormsinger and the changes to Divine Disciple. I have lots of bards on live but only 1 cleric currently. No interest in monk/pally but I don't play monk. My play time is limited and I've been spending most of it on HC trying to carefully inch my way along.

[SpardaX]

So is core 4 of warchanter just kinda only 10hp for a stormsinger bard with this change?

Change what you want to change, I'm not going to enter this Buffs vs CC Spells debate, but I am also interested in this question. If you do decide to go with the currently proposed change of buffs lost, what happens to tree abilities directly related to said buff?

Remove the need for Inspire Greatness? Just have the Charisma Score Temp HP be a thing all on it's own? Or Lose the feature entirely, and settle on a lv 12 Core that just gives "+10 HP"?

I know you guys can't always have the entire game memorized, but I think where possible, if you do plan to remove a feature that has an enhancement directly related to it, you should probably mention what happens with the enhancement.

[Pandjed]

While I'm all for changing songs (being one of the people that complained that this version is basically a better bard), I do feel that getting to those feats is kinda half-baken. You basically lose on your songs:

+3 music bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws versus fear
+4 Music Bonus to Armor Class, +4% Music Bonus to Dodge, and a +4 Music bonus to all saves
+20 Temporary Hit Points, +3 Physical Resistance Rating, an +10 Healing Amplification


This isn't little, but it's not much either, and it's only natural, as most of the good buffs bards are known for are in warchanter and spellsinger, so instead of a bard who is just better, we get a bard that does get slightly worse at buffing, but still plays mostly like any offensive spellsinger (and most players will go t5 in spellsinger in endgame, cuz party expectations and mass hold).

What about removing enchantment spells? Unless it also hits spellsingers t5, it's kinda neglectable. Yeah, losing the dances will be a bit of a pity, but there are enough dancing sphere casters to cover the rather special conditions to use it. Do we want to lose mass hold? This would definitely be the point that may make or break this archetype's popularity. So if that's the decision, be cautious.

How would hitting fascinate work? Fascinate is probably the most reliable CC out there, but also the one that requires the most player skill because of its long animation, so many players wouldn't feel it. The other active songs are even more seldom used (put your hand over your heart and admit that you don't even remember most of them).



How would I go about it? Of course hard, harsh, unfair, and more in line with narrative than balance. :P

1.) Seriously trim down the advanced enchantment spells in the spelllist, including making it so, that stormsingers can't choose mass hold in t5 spellsinger. For that, add some cold spells into the spellbook as well, not only as SLAs.

2.) Make some point reductions to swashbuckler to bridge, until it gets a proper rework (a proper rework is preferable, but probably not possible time-wise).

3.) Exchange several of the song feats that comes with class progression.

Fascinate gets replaced by a song (let's call it "Like a Hurricane"), that can knock down opponents, working on the fascinate model and allowing further targetting by adding enhancements that improves fascinate
Inspire Courage gets replaced by "Stormheart", which grants a +3 music bonus to MRR, lightning, sonic, and cold absorption (these will scale), as well as +5 electric, sonic, and cold Spell Power.
Suggestion will be replaced with a feat, that debuffs the targets that were hit by "Like a Hurricane", maybe making them helpless and debuffing their saves for 30 seconds
Song of Freedom gets replaced by a song (I am the Storm!), that grants temporary spellpoints or make the next spell cost 0 SP. Put it on a 30s cooldown or so to avoid some nasty synergies in epics
Replace Heroics with "Like the Wind", which increases sneak attack damage, dodge cap, and maybe even critical damage
Mass Suggestion gets replaced with a song-based Abundant Step (Learning to Fly)
Make sure to not add more ways to get bard songs back quicker than now


So having both, a stormsinger and a default bard would make a difference in buffs to a cetain degree, so having both is a win for two slots in the party.

For the stormsinger, it changes its style of enchanting CC to sole evocation CC, while also having options to mitigate the lower SP by having an option to sacrifice songs they have after buffing the party. While the knock down may be as popular as the fascinate, it does work into the more windy than enchanting narrative I was aiming at.

[MarkTatsu]

I thought the theme was sonic and electric? I was really excited when I read this but then I read all the sla.
Why no option for electric? I thought the theme was electric not cold? I think they should add electric loop lightning bolt and chain lightning to the current options for us that want to be a sonic and electric caster .

[dogsoldier]

I thought the theme was sonic and electric? I was really excited when I read this but then I read all the sla.
Why no option for electric? I thought the theme was electric not cold? I think they should add electric loop lightning bolt and chain lightning to the current options for us that want to be a sonic and electric caster .

Yeah, that would be nice if it were an option, multi-select or something.

I also think the cold stuff should be available as a regular spell choice (mainly thinking for Primal Sky mantle purposes). Right now, the only way to get cold spells is T5 (Iceberg) and the SLAs, which are ok I guess, but I too would rather have electric loop, and even shocking grasp as SLAs. And then pickup the cold stuff as regular spells.

[NightHiker]

Right now, the only way to get cold spells is T5 (Iceberg) and the SLAs, which are ok I guess, but I too would rather have electric loop, and even shocking grasp as SLAs. And then pickup the cold stuff as regular spells.

One could argue that the main feature, or one of the main features, of the archetype is to have electric damage procs go off when you cast sonic or cold spells - so it kinda makes sense all the SLA options are sonic and cold, with electric in the spell book.

However, I think having the cold line also available as regular spells, including ice and sleet storm to compensate for the widely proposed loss of enchantment CC would make the archetype more rounded out.

I don't know if the tech involved on creating archetypes allows for modification of trees in case an specific archetype is chosen, like giving different abilities on the spellsinger tree depending on archetype. If it does, then yeah, replacing the enchantment related stuff with sonic related ones would be great, or even just plain removing them would be alright if the alternative is too much work. Same thing for the Mass hold enhancement on T5 - if possible, replace it with an evocation spell with a CC component - or maybe an enhancement that improves the lightning ball spell to also daze or stun mobs - that's one spell I see people forfeiting at end game for better level 4 spells, and that would make for some interesting trade offs. Worst case scenario, if, again, doing that is too much trouble, I'm ok with just removing Mass Hold (as long as we get ice/sleet storm).

Cheers,
NH

[Synthetic]

@lynn

Can you buff a little bit the warchanter tree, like you did with the battlepriest tree on the cleric pass that you guys are doing.

This would be great.

The capstone could really use some improvements - super slow cast time doesn't scale with spell power and has a 2minute cooldown on a 6s CC ability. It also costs a song so reducing the cooldown to 12s would probably be appropriate(you'll run out of songs darn quick if you're not careful).

Please reduce the AP cost of the tree too.

[Rebelheart01]

Howdy friends, happy Thursday! I'm here to post some of our preliminary design changes! Note that all of this is subject to change, as are all things on the preview server.

Stormsinger:

Step 1: Stormsinger needs to lose something. And I know, I know, saying it like that makes me sound like a comic book villain, but the underlying thread of feedback that I've gotten so far (and largely very much agree with) is that Stormsinger is too good for what we want an Archetype to be. We never ever ever want an Archetype to be strictly better than the base class at what the base class does. And right now, Stormsinger is shaping up to be way too strong. So, with that said...

Stormsinger will no longer get the upgrade feats for Inspire Courage and Bardic Aria as it levels. This means it won't get the following feats:
Improved Inspire Courage +1
Improved Inspire Courage +2
Improved Inspire Courage +3
Ballad Melody: Greatness
Inspiration Melody: Heroics
We hope that the loss of a significant chunk of its buffing potential helps Stormsinger fit into its role (DPS caster bard) without stepping on the support aspect of base Bard.



Thank you for the amazing feedback so far! If you have any further comments, questions, or suggestions, please feel free to post them here :)

So instead of completely removing inspire courage and the bardic aria that has synergies with spellsinger and Fatesinger why not rebrand them as "Storm inspiration" and "Aria of the storm"? so as you level you would get auto granted the new feats. These new feats would provide a specific benefit to Stormsinger and contain none of the benefits of the original feats. Anytime you pick up a core or a enhancement from any source that would grant you bonus to inspire courage you would be granted "Storm inspiration" benefits instead.

"Storm inspiration" song buffs could be as simple as bonus to spell power boosts tailored to the elements or universal spell power so everyone with a blue bar could benefit from the song. Higher level heroics might include temporary spell points and maybe spell point regeneration. Epic level perks might include bonus critical to hit and or damage. Seems to me that this would also help make them attractive for raid groups... well at least for everyone that cast spells for heals or damage. If this is still to much spell power for the Stormsinger themself I might suggest dropping the core's spell power boost at each core to offset the "Storm inspiration" song buff.

Just my 2 cents after all how can you have a Storm"SINGER" if you do not have songs to go with it?

[Lynnabel]

So instead of completely removing inspire courage and the bardic aria that has synergies with spellsinger and Fatesinger why not rebrand them as "Storm inspiration" and "Aria of the storm"? so as you level you would get auto granted the new feats. These new feats would provide a specific benefit to Stormsinger and contain none of the benefits of the original feats. Anytime you pick up a core or a enhancement from any source that would grant you bonus to inspire courage you would be granted "Storm inspiration" benefits instead.

"Storm inspiration" song buffs could be as simple as bonus to spell power boosts tailored to the elements or universal spell power so everyone with a blue bar could benefit from the song. Higher level heroics might include temporary spell points and maybe spell point regeneration. Epic level perks might include bonus critical to hit and or damage. Seems to me that this would also help make them attractive for raid groups... well at least for everyone that cast spells for heals or damage. If this is still to much spell power for the Stormsinger themself I might suggest dropping the core's spell power boost at each core to offset the "Storm inspiration" song buff.

Just my 2 cents after all how can you have a Storm"SINGER" if you do not have songs to go with it?

Ah, to be clear, the base Aria and Bardic Inspiration are staying - the listed feats are the upgrades for them.

[Steeme]

Please ensure the "Lightning Strike" from Stormsinger cores is a toggle that can be turned off. If it already functions like this, thank you.