everyone hates turners

[painkiller3]

i know i know, everyone hates turn undead. is it possible with completionist, racial completionist, death domain, all cleric lives etc. to be able to turn something like a flameskull at endgame on something like R4? i like cleric, i like death domain i'm just wondering if there's *any* point in even trying to turn stuff. i'm okay with switching to a "turning stick" that's loaded with filigrees for this.

[Zuldar]

I recently ran a turning build with the animal domain. I ended up with an 88 hit dice turn check and could get about 3 or 4 undead/animals in r10 Isle of Dread content. If you invest fully into it turn undead is fairly effective as undead and animals are quite common.

[Annex]

Gymnast: Mommy! Mommy! All the other girls in class hate me!

Lathe Worker: Burt, why the heck is everyone given me the stink eye?

Spatula: It's not my fault you burn everything!

[painkiller3]

I recently ran a turning build with the animal domain. I ended up with an 88 hit dice turn check and could get about 3 or 4 undead/animals in r10 Isle of Dread content. If you invest fully into it turn undead is fairly effective as undead and animals are quite common.

thank you :)

[nobodynobody1426]

It requires a very specific raid item to be remotely useful, otherwise it'll run into issues.

https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tattered_Scrolls_of_the_Broken_One

Can use this as a substitute
https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legendary_Sacred_Helm

The issue is monsters Hit Dice gets super inflated in epics making it all or nothing, which means you drop the ability to do much else. Turning is such a niche ability at higher levels that its just not worth the effort. I personally wish they would allow for the alternate turning ruleset where TU gets turned into radiant damage instead of fear / death ability.

[Bogenbroom]

Well, to be fair, Ike was kind of a ******...

[SocratesBastardSon]

I personally wish they would allow for the alternate turning ruleset where TU gets turned into radiant damage instead of fear / death ability.

This is a great suggestion. Light damage on turn is already part of Morningstar and KotC enhancements, so it shouldn't be a problem to code. The other path for turning that was introduced with the new EA is debuffs: turning reduces saves. I don't know if it would be hard to code, but a debuff that confuses, reduces MRR, PRR, AC, Fort, saves, makes them vulnerable to various kinds of attacks, or even more vulnerable to further turns. Frankly, uncoupling the effects turns afflict on undead from hit dice - like light damage, EA debuffs and some Cleric domain debuffs - is the most obvious solution.
Anything to make the skill useful, given that it is so much a part of fantasy, horror and D&D lore.

[nobodynobody1426]

This is a great suggestion. Light damage on turn is already part of Morningstar and KotC enhancements, so it shouldn't be a problem to code. The other path for turning that was introduced with the new EA is debuffs: turning reduces saves. I don't know if it would be hard to code, but a debuff that confuses, reduces MRR, PRR, AC, Fort, saves, makes them vulnerable to various kinds of attacks, or even more vulnerable to further turns. Frankly, uncoupling the effects turns afflict on undead from hit dice - like light damage, EA debuffs and some Cleric domain debuffs - is the most obvious solution.
Anything to make the skill useful, given that it is so much a part of fantasy, horror and D&D lore.

It's part of Complete Divine's alternate turn undead rule set.

https://dtdnd.neocities.org/books/player/CompleteDivine.pdf

Page 87.



VARIANT TURNING RULES:
DESTRUCTION OF THE UNDEAD
Instead of the turn undead rules in the Player’s
Handbook, some DMs might decide to use these
turn undead rules. Instead of making undead
run and cower, turn attempts deal positive
energy damage to all undead within 30 ft. of
the cleric. The goal of the system was to have the
cleric contribute to the destruction of the undead in
a fashion that interacts well with the other characters in
the party such as the fighter and wizard. Sometimes when
undead are turned they run away and are never seen again,
or they are destroyed outright. Other times when undead
are turned, there are no effects at all. Some DMs find the
range of possibilities too widely varied or too complicated
and for those DMs we provide this more consistent, simpler
method of dealing with the turning of undead.
Turning undead is a standard action that deals 1d6
damage/cleric level to all undead within 30’ of the cleric.
The affected undead get a Will save (DC 10+ cleric level +
Charisma modifier) for half damage.
Evil clerics (any cleric that can swap out spells for inflict
spells) instead heal undead within 30 ft. for 1d6/cleric level.
Paladins work just as you would expect, they turn undead
as a cleric 3 levels lower.
Undead with turn resistance may subtract that number
from the damage that they take from each turn attempt. For
example, a vampire with turn resistance 4 takes 4 fewer hit
points of damage each time he takes turning damage.
Turn resistance does not reduce the effects of the
healing that evil clerics provide with their turn
attempts.
When using this ability against incorporeal
creatures, you do not have to roll a 50% miss
chance; turning hits them automatically.


Could likely just have Positive Energy Burst modified to have damage dice of 1D6+3 or 1D6+6 per caster level instead of the anemic 1D6.

[Enoach]

The usefulness of TU comes down to if you are looking for the "kill" aspect (2x the Level or Greater Turner) or are you looking for the CC of the Fear/Stun.

Two major issues have plagued TU
1. Deathward blocked any effect
2. The game uses the "Increase HD model" to increase the difficulty

Major Issue #1 was resolved in this past year and now players will see the Fear/stun on undead that cannot be instant killed (that are not boss)

Major Issue #2 still exists and I don't think the correction on HD of the Undead is going to see a change any time soon. However, I think changing the calculation beyond its current Roll of 22+ is Turn Level +4, to add in additional tiers could help this out. This would push TU to be workable in more epic content.

[kmoustakas]

i know i know, everyone hates turn undead. is it possible with completionist, racial completionist, death domain, all cleric lives etc. to be able to turn something like a flameskull at endgame on something like R4? i like cleric, i like death domain i'm just wondering if there's *any* point in even trying to turn stuff. i'm okay with switching to a "turning stick" that's loaded with filigrees for this.

I turn 2 enemies at r10 without being spec'ed for it. I do have cleric past lives and +13 silver flame item.

If you spec for it all the way you can turn 3 per attempt, I think that's the maximum you can go. You need to focus on charisma though. Charisma makes the difference.

[nobodynobody1426]

I turn 2 enemies at r10 without being spec'ed for it. I do have cleric past lives and +13 silver flame item.

If you spec for it all the way you can turn 3 per attempt, I think that's the maximum you can go. You need to focus on charisma though. Charisma makes the difference.

Skull level doesn't matter, monsters have the exact same hit dice at R10 as they do on elite, same with attack bonus. The issue is the amount of investment required to make it work on high CR mobs in the first place, gear slots / points in Radiant Savant. Usually cleric RS healers can work it out, but not Fire / Light DD builds.

[kmoustakas]

Skull level doesn't matter, monsters have the exact same hit dice at R10 as they do on elite, same with attack bonus. The issue is the amount of investment required to make it work on high CR mobs in the first place, gear slots / points in Radiant Savant. Usually cleric RS healers can work it out, but not Fire / Light DD builds.

There should be some investment for an autokill without save, even if it targets a specific monster demographic.

I do use 11 points in radiant servant for the burst and kinda assumed everyone did. Probably nukers don't but why would you care about turning on a nuker build? Just nuke them or use undeath to death if you invest in DCs.

You do need a 13/13 item for level 30 quests for sure, likely a silver flame prefix random because the raid bracers or sands/fens legendary helmets are harder to get. Which kind of makes me hate those hallowed +13 items: where are we gonna get +13 sacred you silly devs (don't answer random loot because then I'd use silver flame random loot) You don't need the insightful eternal flame and the filigrees/feat/destiny points unless you're trying for the 3rd-4th mob each turn.

[Whitering]

There is also a dip you can do into Paladin haha