Tabaxi Feat Problem

[Talam]

So I rolled up a Trailblazer and figured I would get Whirlwind Attack. However the Spring Attach in Tabaxi Tier 4 doesn't work as the pre-req for it. Other trees do, so I'm assuming this is a bug. Any eta on a fix?

Then I wanted to take Improved Two Handed Fighting at lvl 9 which I should be able to do as my strength with a +8 tome at lvl 8 is 18, but the feat says I don't have enough strength.

If Improved Two Handed Fighting isn't applying the tome, I'm betting that Greater won't either.

Please fix these two bugs. I've left my Trailblazer at lvl 8 till they are fixed.

Thank you.

[J1NG]

Usually a Feat granted that's part of a chain like Spring Attack, doesn't count for subsequent Feats that are built on top of it. So I would find it strange if this was the case here. Was there any confirmation that you could just take the Enhancement granted Feat and then grab WWA using the Enhancement granted Feat as pre-requisite?

As for your Strength status. Can you provide a quick breakdown of your stats? As a monk, sometimes players forget they are in Fire Stance, or forget about non-included stat boosts like Guild Buffs. Or that not all of your +8 Strength from a Supreme/Strength tome is applied at such low level. Only +4 is granted by Level 7. This means your base Strength actually needed to be 14 to qualify. Can you confirm that you had a minimum of 14 Strength along with your stat tome?

J1NG

[Artos_Fabril]

So I rolled up a Trailblazer and figured I would get Whirlwind Attack. However the Spring Attach in Tabaxi Tier 4 doesn't work as the pre-req for it. Other trees do, so I'm assuming this is a bug. Any eta on a fix?Per current* SSG policy, this is not a bug.
The general rule in DDO is that feats granted by Enhancements do not count as that feat for the prerequisites of anything else.

Very recently, some exceptions have started being made; those exceptions should possibly have their tooltips updated to mark their exceptional status better.

Shadowdancer Core 3 does not provide Improved Evasion for any enhancement-based sources of Evasion (including Tabaxi and all of the existing Evasion enhancements), and we do not plan to change that at this time.

*As with all things, this is subject to change with no notice, or to become a bugged and then remain unaddressed for so long that it is determined to be a feature

[Talam]

Ahh... I thought I remembered reading just the opposite, that enhancement granted feats would qualify for the feat chain. It was probably just a one time deal for whatever feat I remembered. Thanks for sharing Steelstar's quote. That will make getting whirlwind not possible for me, not enough feats unless I mix in fighter or something which loses me the capstone. The strength however isn't right. I have a +8 tome and at lvl 8 that gives +4. I'm not in any stances, still in the set up screen, so unless it defaults to a stance that grants strength there is no way it's adding strength. I frankly don't remember what I started with, I think 14 as I read on wiki that I needed 17 strength for this at lvl 9 so planned ahead for it, but I do know that when I look at my character sheet it shows 18 strength, but still won't let me take the feat :(

[Talam]

J1ng, Sorry, you're correct. I just looked at my character sheet again, and I only started with 12. So I have 12 + 4tome + 2 effect. Not sure what the effect is as I'm not in any stances, even put on the air dex stance, still shows + 2 effect. Bottom line, you're right, I only actually have 16 strength. I think I planned to take Whirlwind at 9 and Improved 2 handed at 12. Oh well, if the enhancement won't work for Whirlwind my build is just gimped. I'll just make do I guess till I can TR him into something else. I was just trying to find something besides rogue that would work for them. Maybe look at druid next life as I just don't think the quarterstaff build will be that good.

Thanks for your insights.

[Talam]

So I looked at my build again, and while I can take Spring Attack at lvl 9, what a waste. Basically the spring attack in the Tabaxi tree is then pretty much wasted (extra jump damage being the only benefit as far as I can tell from taking it). I'm turning this into a plea to the Dev's to make the spring attack granted feat in the tier 4 of the Tabaxi tree qualify for Whirlwind. Otherwise it's just not worth taking, and I know I read that there was already at least one exception to the general rule.

Thanks for considering Dev's. If the answer is a definite no at this time please let me know and I'll continue on with my weak build. If the answer is ok in a future update then I'll wait.

Thanks again.

[Steelstar]

The answer is a definite no, sorry.

The policy for how these work (the quote from me above) has been our general policy on enhancements-counting-as-requirements-for-feats for at least the last 12 years, I can't speak to before that.

Like I said in that same quote, it appears we've made a few exceptions in the last few years. Those should be better marked mentioning their exceptional status, or should stop being exceptions. But in general, feats gained from enhancements should not be expected to count as prerequisites for anything else, and we do not intend to change this stance any time in the near future.

As for your Two Handed Fighting issue: I'd have to see more about your specific build to say for sure, sorry.

[Drekisen]

Then I wanted to take Improved Two Handed Fighting at lvl 9 which I should be able to do as my strength with a +8 tome at lvl 8 is 18, but the feat says I don't have enough strength.

If Improved Two Handed Fighting isn't applying the tome, I'm betting that Greater won't either.


Keep in mind also that Improved and Greater THF have a minimum BAB prerequisite as well.

[Caarb]

The answer is a definite no, sorry.

The policy for how these work (the quote from me above) has been our general policy on enhancements-counting-as-requirements-for-feats for at least the last 12 years, I can't speak to before that.

Like I said in that same quote, it appears we've made a few exceptions in the last few years. Those should be better marked mentioning their exceptional status, or should stop being exceptions. But in general, feats gained from enhancements should not be expected to count as prerequisites for anything else, and we do not intend to change this stance any time in the near future.

As for your Two Handed Fighting issue: I'd have to see more about your specific build to say for sure, sorry.

Enhancements should count as pre-requisites for enhancements and epic destinies but not feats as you have shown you can reset trees when the pre-requisite is removed.

[Talam]

Steelstar, thank you for the quick response. I'll build accordingly. J1ng was correct about the strength issue, not sure where it's coming from as it's a newly created character, just ate a tome and started leveling, but something (not a stance) is giving it +2 Strength as an effect, so all is working. I'll just have to up it's strength at creation on it's second life. BAB is fine Drekisen, but thanks for the thought.

[droid327]

Enhancements should count as pre-requisites for enhancements and epic destinies but not feats as you have shown you can reset trees when the pre-requisite is removed.

This. People are probably confused because Magical Training granted by Enhancements qualifies you for Feydark. But that's an enhancement enabling an enhancement, and when you reset your Magical Training, it resets Feydark too. You cant reset a feat like that, though, which means you could have the feat without the prereq.

Logically, the rule should be based on permanency. You cant qualify for something more permanent with something less permanent. So feats -> enhancements, OK. Enhancements -> enhancements, OK. Enhancements -> feats, no. Gear -> enhancements or feats, no.

[MJtheKing]

This. People are probably confused because Magical Training granted by Enhancements qualifies you for Feydark. But that's an enhancement enabling an enhancement, and when you reset your Magical Training, it resets Feydark too. You cant reset a feat like that, though, which means you could have the feat without the prereq.

Logically, the rule should be based on permanency. You cant qualify for something more permanent with something less permanent. So feats -> enhancements, OK. Enhancements -> enhancements, OK. Enhancements -> feats, no. Gear -> enhancements or feats, no.

Exactly the reasoning here.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Keep in mind also that Improved and Greater THF have a minimum BAB prerequisite as well.

There are several feats with a minimum BAB.

[Malleable]

Steelstar, thank you for the quick response. I'll build accordingly. J1ng was correct about the strength issue, not sure where it's coming from as it's a newly created character, just ate a tome and started leveling, but something (not a stance) is giving it +2 Strength as an effect, so all is working. I'll just have to up it's strength at creation on it's second life. BAB is fine Drekisen, but thanks for the thought.


Ship buffs?

[Callpso]

Then I wanted to take Improved Two Handed Fighting at lvl 9 which I should be able to do as my strength with a +8 tome at lvl 8 is 18, but the feat says I don't have enough strength.

If Improved Two Handed Fighting isn't applying the tome, I'm betting that Greater won't either.

Please fix these two bugs. I've left my Trailblazer at lvl 8 till they are fixed.

Thank you.

At level 8, your +8 tome will have only applied +4 to your stat, so are you counting the full +8 to have an 18 STR, or do you actually have 14 base STR with +4 applied from the tome?

[SWCarter]

Exactly the reasoning here.

If that reasoning were consistent, then a Heroic/ED enhancement granting Evasion should apply as a pre-req to the Heroic/ED enhancement granting Improved Evasion. But it doesn't, which is what spurred Steelstar's quote. The inconsistency of some enhancements counting as prerequisites to other enhancements while others do not drives confusion.

[droid327]

If that reasoning were consistent, then a Heroic/ED enhancement granting Evasion should apply as a pre-req to the Heroic/ED enhancement granting Improved Evasion. But it doesn't, which is what spurred Steelstar's quote. The inconsistency of some enhancements counting as prerequisites to other enhancements while others do not drives confusion.

Also worth pointing out there's a difference between things being required for being able to take a second thing (ie, prerequisites), and things that merely enable some function if you have them (conditionals)

MT is a prerequisite for the Feydark tree because you cant even spend a point in it without that feat. THF is a prerequisite for most Strikethrough enhancements. And the problem there of course is being able to respec and un-qualify for the ability while still keeping it specced.

Shadowdancer Core 3 doesnt have any prerequisites, just conditionals. If you have Evasion, then you get Imp Evasion. Just like if you have Aug Summons, you get +1 Illusion DC in the Feydark T5 Capstone, they're conditionals, but you're not required to have Aug Summ in order to spend points on that enhancement. And even a Topaz of Augment Summons is enough to qualify for the conditional in Feydark, because conditionals can simply activate or deactivate as necessary without changing your spec.

[LightBear]

The answer is a definite no, sorry.

The policy for how these work (the quote from me above) has been our general policy on enhancements-counting-as-requirements-for-feats for at least the last 12 years, I can't speak to before that.

Like I said in that same quote, it appears we've made a few exceptions in the last few years. Those should be better marked mentioning their exceptional status, or should stop being exceptions. But in general, feats gained from enhancements should not be expected to count as prerequisites for anything else, and we do not intend to change this stance any time in the near future.

As for your Two Handed Fighting issue: I'd have to see more about your specific build to say for sure, sorry.

I think the mixup comes from feats appearing in an enhancement/epic destiny type of form as explained by droid327.
Where the epic destiny usually specifically says that if you already have a lesser form of something you now would get the improved version.
Per example, the turn undead and lay on hands for clerics/paladins. They still have a feat at their base though.
There are also feats on items, like mobility. Those do not grant you anything other than a copy of the feat.

And since the last update there now is a racial evasion through enhancements. It would be really nice if an epic destiny would check if you have that and grand the improved version if so.
I can play cat without for sure.