Why would you EVER deliberately obscure system information in the patch notes?

[Artos_Fabril]

A variety of Alchemist class tree toggles now remember their states better.
This isn't story spoilers. You aren't being coy about an exploit. Just ******* provide the information. Why would anyone, ever make the choice to deliberately hide this information?

Sure, this isn't a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, but it's a weird glimpse of a company culture stuck in 2001, from a company that didn't even exist in 2001.

Why are you hiding information from players? It hurts the players most who want to just play your game.

In every case, the real system nerds are going to find the information and share it on the forums (and/or other places interested players go for the crunchy information), all you do by hiding information is creating traps for new or uninformed players.

[mikarddo]

This isn't story spoilers. You aren't being coy about an exploit. Just ******* provide the information. Why would anyone, ever make the choice to deliberately hide this information?

Sure, this isn't a big deal, in the grand scheme of things, but it's a weird glimpse of a company culture stuck in 2001, from a company that didn't even exist in 2001.

Why are you hiding information from players? It hurts the players most who want to just play your game.

In every case, the real system nerds are going to find the information and share it on the forums (and/or other places interested players go for the crunchy information), all you do by hiding information is creating traps for new or uninformed players.

Imho your reply is not terribly justified in this case. You log in your Alchemist - set the toggles you like - log out, log in - check if they remain in place.

Its not like they are hiding difficult to notice information :)

Basically, they are telling you "we tried some things which may not work perfectly but we do think most or all alchemist toggles with now remain after relogging. Try it out and see how it works".

[cru121]

Yawn.

There are like 4 toggles in alchemist class trees (3x those stone orb things and 1x poison dice on hit... and maybe something I overlooked). So some of these are now supposedly staying toggled on relog.

Why the drama?

[Lynnabel]

There are like 4 toggles in alchemist class trees (3x those stone orb things and 1x poison dice on hit... and maybe something I overlooked). So some of these are now supposedly staying toggled on relog.

This is correct! This also includes the Bombardier t5 toggle. If after today's patch anything in Alchemist is sticking when it shouldn't or NOT sticking when it should, let us know!

[QuantumFX]

This is correct! This also includes the Bombardier t5 toggle. If after today's patch anything in Alchemist is sticking when it shouldn't or NOT sticking when it should, let us know!

Hey Lynn - Any chance we could get the "suppress, not deactivate" treatment for when monks get uncentered? Having to reenter ocean stance, reactivate the Shintao curative and reactivate the Henshin stance every 30 seconds in the shadow crypts is tedious.

[Artos_Fabril]

There are like 4 toggles in alchemist class trees (3x those stone orb things and 1x poison dice on hit... and maybe something I overlooked). So some of these are now supposedly staying toggled on relog.

Why the drama?
That the information is easy to find makes it more foolish to hide it, not less.

[Lynnabel]

That the information is easy to find makes it more foolish to hide it, not less.

I can promise you that "we want to hide information from the players" is not the reason why we wrote that release note. If we wanted to hide information, we wouldn't mention it in the release notes at all.

[Wahnsinnig]

I can promise you that "we want to hide information from the players" is not the reason why we wrote that release note. If we wanted to hide information, we wouldn't mention it in the release notes at all.

If that is the case then why are release notes often so cryptic that noone understand what you mean?

[cru121]

If that is the case then why are release notes often so cryptic that noone understand what you mean?

People have different cognitive capacities. Just like in this case, some readers were able to understand or guess what was changing, and some apparently weren't.

Anyway, release notes are often cryptic for many software products. In case you're not familiar with bug fixing in software development companies.
- There's a vague bug report: "some alchemist toggles untoggle on login".
- A developer, often not particularly socially competent or lacking the big picture overview, attempts to fix a bug, perhaps not even sure if the fix actually helps. And writes some vague info about resolution: "some alchemist toggles no longer untoggle" or maybe "function SaveToggleAtLogout now includes alchemist stuff"
- Then comes a tester, but we're talking SSG here.
- Then comes a tech writer who should translate devspeak into human language.
- However, SSG is a small company, so here comes Cordo who gets a pile of resolutions, tries to sort them somehow, fixes the most glaring typos, and slaps it on the web. BAM, release notes. And of course, we all want the release notes as early as possible, so there's not much room for reviews.

[LightBear]

People have different cognitive capacities. Just like in this case, some readers were able to understand or guess what was changing, and some apparently weren't.

Anyway, release notes are often cryptic for many software products. In case you're not familiar with bug fixing in software development companies.
- There's a vague bug report: "some alchemist toggles untoggle on login".
- A developer, often not particularly socially competent or lacking the big picture overview, attempts to fix a bug, perhaps not even sure if the fix actually helps. And writes some vague info about resolution: "some alchemist toggles no longer untoggle" or maybe "function SaveToggleAtLogout now includes alchemist stuff"
- Then comes a tester, but we're talking SSG here.
- Then comes a tech writer who should translate devspeak into human language.
- However, SSG is a small company, so here comes Cordo who gets a pile of resolutions, tries to sort them somehow, fixes the most glaring typos, and slaps it on the web. BAM, release notes. And of course, we all want the release notes as early as possible, so there's not much room for reviews.

There's also legal stuff to worry about, when you're release notes are overly specific while the product itself does something else entirely, because reasons I won't go into here, you'll get some upset customers and possibly a lawsuit. Being vague has a purpose.
Though I do think that in this case it is done with a tongue in cheek and I personally enjoy this style of humor.

[Cordovan]

Here's the real story on that release note: We were writing the notes fairly late in the process, and all relevant "check ins" to the build typically have text in them associated with an explainer about the change. This is used by folks to write the release note; it's a semi-translated version outside of dev speak. In this case, what you see is the explainer note. I considered whether I should bother someone for more info, but figured those impacted would know which toggles were being talked about. My bad.

[mikarddo]

Here's the real story on that release note: We were writing the notes fairly late in the process, and all relevant "check ins" to the build typically have text in them associated with an explainer about the change. This is used by folks to write the release note; it's a semi-translated version outside of dev speak. In this case, what you see is the explainer note. I considered whether I should bother someone for more info, but figured those impacted would know which toggles were being talked about. My bad.

I think you did the right thing Cordovan. There should not be a need to further elaborate as the text was already pretty clear to anyone interested in the issue. I see no bad here :)

[Arkat]

I think you did the right thing Cordovan. There should not be a need to further elaborate as the text was already pretty clear to anyone interested in the issue. I see no bad here :)

Likewise.

I would say, though, that more information is always appreciated, but it's not always strictly necessary.

If it were me, I'd err on the side of transparency and disclosure.

[Jerevth]

I think you did the right thing Cordovan. There should not be a need to further elaborate as the text was already pretty clear to anyone interested in the issue. I see no bad here :)

Agreed.
It was pretty easy to figure out without needing to pull up other webpages. If the specifics were listed we'd just gloss right over them- the issue would get sorted when we logged on next time, anyway.

[gorocz]

This is correct! This also includes the Bombardier t5 toggle. If after today's patch anything in Alchemist is sticking when it shouldn't or NOT sticking when it should, let us know!

It's not Alchemist, but close enough alphabetically - Artificer Rune Arm Use (the toggle that makes runearms recharge automatically after firing) is still getting toggled off on relogging, and would be really nice if it stayed toggled on. Hopefully it's not because it checks for an equipped runearm (but I'm guessing that shouldn't be a problem since the alchemist stones need an orb too, right?).

[CSQ]

If that is the case then why are release notes often so cryptic that noone understand what you mean?

I don't think the release notes are cryptic all that often (if there are counter examples, I'm not opposed to seeing them and changing my mind here- perhaps I've just lingered here too long and I understand or think I understand what they're saying), but sometimes they are unspecific. For example, the complaint that started this threat is not one about the developers being cryptic, it's a complaint about the specific changes not being enumerated out. Now, there are some arguments for why you would want to list those thoroughly: it makes it easier for players looking for that specific issue to find the issue, it makes it clear what was intentionally changed (in the case that the reference might apply to some things but not others), and it provides all possible information to players. That all seems very good, except that there are a few reasons why you might not want to list everything out.

To begin with, patch notes are already pretty long, and people tend to skim excessively long patch notes. Keeping something that players who are concerned about the issue would notice but not take three or four times as long to describe in the patch notes is actually very good economy. The wording here is vague, which could be cleared up- instead of saying "A variety" as if there are some that have been and others that have not it could have been described more concretely as to what specific toggles or toggle types (i.e. damage/stone orbs) but that's poor word choice, not deliberately obscuring things. Also, patch notes are not always a single person endeavor, and as was mentioned previously by Cordovan it would have required chasing someone down and checking, which, yeah, isn't necessarily a big deal, but if it reads clearly (which, having played an alchemist, it does for me) and not being a particularly notable change (being a minor convenience, though one which is appreciated) it isn't going to hurt anyone if it isn't fully enumerated.

But, more importantly, the biggest problem with this thread is assuming that things are being deliberately obscured when they most likely aren't. This forum is particularly rife with "The Devs hate My Special Build and stealth nerfed me" delusions and just general complaints about the game that are really rooted more in having an axe to grind than anything else. Half of the sass, sarcasm, and salt that I see here could be solved by taking a step back, a deep breath, and asking "Why would this happen?" When the go to response is cynical (and senseless) assumptions about the developers, when there actually are balance issues or significant problems, it's hard to find them past the unnecessary and pointless tin-foil-hatting about some malevolent scheme to... undermine the success of the game? It's not even like "Oh, the devs are just incompetent and don't know what they're doing" (which would be rude and untrue, but at least logical if you have grievances) but some kind of Orwellian conspiracy about making the source of revenue for the developers dry up because they want players to suffer which is just... weird? Like, that's logically unsound, and while I know people can be petty and spiteful, just Lynnabel alone in the last like four years has fixed a ton of my longstanding gripes with DDO and that's before factoring in all the other content development and updates in the pipeline which I have (admittedly, as someone pretty easy to please) quite enjoyed.

At the end of the day, people need to take a chill pill on the conspiracy theories. The developers aren't out to get you. There are real problems in the world, and a bit of latency or a vague patch note is nothing worth getting upset over, at least for long. Just enjoy the game and be polite and respectful to each other.

[maizotome]

https://i2.paste.pics/d82aa4a9dd2acebc3a0e90cbc58d3e3f.png

This is correct! This also includes the Bombardier t5 toggle. If after today's patch anything in Alchemist is sticking when it shouldn't or NOT sticking when it should, let us know!
Bombardier t5 toggle? what are you exactly talking about?
as i don't use orbs/poison coating, my Alchemist have 0 toggles, while all Bombardier t5 things are learned.