Please don't give us cat race.... we already have shifters.

[tankhealer]

Title says it all... are there really people excited by this?!? We already have shifters that are basically fitting those that want a cat/girl/race fetish. Can think of many other things that would be more fun. Also, fans have been begging for kobolds forever, can we get that? Or another race that is based on strength perhaps? Half-ogre? How about a race with +4 to a stat and -4 to another etc.

[Deslen]

I, for one, am excited about tabaxi. I looked forward to shifter, but was vastly dissapointed when I found that their shifting ability was being treated as a rage, and I couldn't use it as a stalwart defender.

I really don't understand why knowing some subset of the population likes something means certain people can't stand it. It's not as though furries of all types are being put into the game with no rational or fitting lore. Tabaxi is a unique and interesting race straight out of pnp.

[Dandonk]

I understand your point, and to some degree agree with it. I'm not particularly excited about Tabaxi, myself. But any new race or class is good with me, so I'll be fine.

I'm still waiting for Thri-kreen. Gimme.

Never gonna happen, but I still want them :)

[sleeksilver]

Iam eexcited about Tabaxi as well and can't wait to play one.

[Rexthor007]

When I was a dungeon master made up a Hill Giant Thief for my friend to play. I Vote for a new race to be Hill Giant. Very strong not too smart ha ha .

[Fauxknight]

Kinda late to ask for their removal at this point, the cats already out of the bag.

While I think there are other races that had more rights to be first I am perfectly happy with the choice of Tabaxi.

The decision making probably went something like this:
"So now that I've put extensive work into designing these new cat people models for the Isle of Dread NPCs we're also about due to introduce a new race. Any ideas on what race we should include with this expansion?"

[Hara]

I don't have a problem with them adding Tabaxi other than it is yet another DEX race, can we please get a second STR race - Goliath would be cool, honestly I think Dragonborn should have been STR and not CHA. I'm still waiting for Deurgar, plus variant Dwarf and Halfling as well.

[Aelonwy]

I'm not exactly excited for Tabaxi, I'm neutral. I've seen many comments of people wanting to play a Tabaxi bard Puss in Boots style but I would much rather try some variant of druid if only druid allowed a full large cat form like panther or tiger.

[ianflaer]

I think I will like Tabaxi and am happy to see it come to us but I would LOVE Kobold. Give me shinies!

[Aselrik]

Title says it all... are there really people excited by this?!? We already have shifters that are basically fitting those that want a cat/girl/race fetish. Can think of many other things that would be more fun. Also, fans have been begging for kobolds forever, can we get that? Or another race that is based on strength perhaps? Half-ogre? How about a race with +4 to a stat and -4 to another etc.

I was just thinking we needed Half-ogre! We only have 1 race giving +str PL, yet 3 giving dex! Are Str characters OP or something? Because they don't really feel like it to me, atm. There also isn't a +2 Str Festive augment unlike all the other stats...

I will say, I don't think cat/girl/fetish race is fair. While this might matter to *some* people, I think it's the tiny minority for a number of reasons. First of all, lots of games (most with better/sexier graphics) than DDO fill this fetish niche. Secondly, people just like cats! And not in the house cat kind. When I used to play a lot more PNP D&D, one of my more favorite characters was some kind of Panther race (or template? I forget). Creatures like Lions, Panthers, Cheetahs, have an "aura" of power to them, similar to a dragon (not to mention dragons are quite cat-like in a lot of fictions like D&D and "How to Train your Dragon".) So this kind of real-world incorporation is a draw to people.

On the other hand, I don't actually like shifters. I *want* to like them. I wanted to like them the first time I picked up the brand new source books to Eberron when they were fresh on the shelves. I just find their overall mechanics/fluff to be boring (I also tend to not like Barbarians much either, in tabletop or DDO).

Anyways, not saying you should like Tabaxi, but I think how much you dislike them and *why,* is a bit unfair.


As someone with experience in the game industry, I can tell you why SSG has not added Kobolds (yet). Kobolds are *not* humanoid, and I don't mean in the D&D sense. I mean, their skeletal structure is so dramatically different that it would require unique art assets for every item that needs to be displayed on them, kind of like warforged and docents, but even worse. For example, look at a kobold's leg and a human's leg, and realize that you can't just slap boots on that critter and call it a day. In addition, that also means they need new animations for everything that a player needs to be able to do.

Also, I suspect that players and monsters have different hitboxes. That probably wouldn't translate, either.

They could compromise and basically make most/all equipment not really appear on Kobolds, and simplify a lot of animations down to look similar (so like every kind of attack/cleave with a kobold may look identical), but most players would just call them "lazy" and complain endlessly.

So in other words, Kobolds represent a massive amount of manhours compared to any humanoid race (in terms of animation retargeting and mesh deformation of graphically displayed items). When put in this context, it makes sense why SSG is going to choose to spend more of their efforts on things like new quests/areas/shiny loot. Hypothetically, if it came down to something like Sharn, a large number of bug fixes/performance, or Kobolds, where would you choose to divert your resources, if you were the design lead? I think most would select one of the first two, before Kobolds.

[Ulfo]

I'm still waiting for Thri-kreen. Gimme.
^^^^
This!!!

Never gonna happen, but I still want them :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_aJbGrgH-Y

[Annex]

Great. As if Stormreach did not smell bad enough. Now the whole place will reek of wet cats and litter boxes. *sigh* At least they have breasts. Or maybe they won't and we can look forward to such threads as, "How come my female Tabaxi does not have breasts?", and, "Breasts are lore appropriate for Female Tabaxi", and, "Fix my Tabaxi Breasts NOW!!!!!!!!".

I guess I better change my signature. Sophie the Cat Burglar. Yes, I have breasts. No, I am not a Tabaxi. No, I am not into furrys. Yes, I took your stuff.

Don't mind me. I'm not even playing. I'm just here to check the weekly sales. Someone send me a memo when they manage to release a good dungeon.

[Fauxknight]

...At least they have breasts. Or maybe they won't and we can look forward to such threads as, "How come my female Tabaxi does not have breasts?", and, "Breasts are lore appropriate for Female Tabaxi", and, "Fix my Tabaxi Breasts NOW!!!!!!!!".


I have inside information. It may not be 100% reliable, but it comes from a pretty trustworthy source that probably doesn't work for them....They wanted to implement a boob slider for Tabaxi, but their character creation system doesn't use sliders so instead they opted to just include a boob size option 1, 2, 3, 4, and so forth like any other character option, they figured it was close enough to a slider.

Of course in a world where just picking the wrong nose shape makes it clip through your armor I'm not sure how this is going to work out...

[droid327]

Great. As if Stormreach did not smell bad enough. Now the whole place will reek of wet cats and litter boxes. *sigh* At least they have breasts. Or maybe they won't and we can look forward to such threads as, "How come my female Tabaxi does not have breasts?", and, "Breasts are lore appropriate for Female Tabaxi", and, "Fix my Tabaxi Breasts NOW!!!!!!!!".

I guess I better change my signature. Sophie the Cat Burglar. Yes, I have breasts. No, I am not a Tabaxi. No, I am not into furrys. Yes, I took your stuff.

Don't mind me. I'm not even playing. I'm just here to check the weekly sales. Someone send me a memo when they manage to release a good dungeon.

"Have breasts" and "looking for a good dungeon" sounds like my Tinder search settings :D

[Memnir]

Yes, we have Shifters. But Shifters suck. Like... a lot.

If Tabaxi is in any way better than Shifter, I will consider it a win. The jury is still out till we play one, however.
Then again, same could be said about any race they add at this point. Except Kobold. Please, please, please - never Kobold.

[Carpone]

Please don't give us cat race
The cat is already out of the bag.

[boredGamer]

I, for one, am excited about tabaxi. I looked forward to shifter, but was vastly dissapointed when I found that their shifting ability was being treated as a rage, and I couldn't use it as a stalwart defender.

I really don't understand why knowing some subset of the population likes something means certain people can't stand it. It's not as though furries of all types are being put into the game with no rational or fitting lore. Tabaxi is a unique and interesting race straight out of pnp.

Yeah would be nice if they simply re worked shifter at some point.

And man this thread , there is a lot of nerd undertone stuff I had no idea existed .

[gravisrs]

Well Tabaxi is a deep inside D&D lore from the first D&D edition!

It's absolutely justified lore-wise to introduce Tabaxi as playable race in DDO and was first in the queue for a long time.

Kobolds were introduced as playable race very recently, in 5e Volo's Guide to Monsters (2016) and I'd like to mention that DDO is still based on D&D 3.5 edition (Eberron was introduced in 3.5) - so maybe let's introduce 3.5 and previous races/classes first?

[Fauxknight]

Well Tabaxi is a deep inside D&D lore from the first D&D edition!

It's absolutely justified lore-wise to introduce Tabaxi as playable race in DDO and was first in the queue for a long time.

Kobolds were introduced as playable race very recently, in 5e Volo's Guide to Monsters (2016) and I'd like to mention that DDO is still based on D&D 3.5 edition (Eberron was introduced in 3.5) - so maybe let's introduce 3.5 and previous races/classes first?


I have to disagree with some of the listed facts here. Yes, Rakasta have been around since 1e and Tabaxi since 2e, but Kobolds have been around since 1e as well. I don't have the resources (I've dumped nearly everything that wasn't at least 3.5) to check exactly when each one was given an official playable stat-block, but if I had to guess Kobolds got one first.

Just going back to 3.5 Kobolds were a playable race out of the gate in the 3.5 MM 2003. Technically Rakshasa were also playable from that MM, but as a LA+7 race. The closest thing to Tabaxi that I can find in 3.5 are the Catfolk in Races of the Wild 2005.


Don't get me wrong, I want the Tabaxi race, just saying don't dis the kobolds quite soo much, their place is equally earned.

[Sunnie]

The playable race I want to see is kobolds, especially if it's possible to look exactly like the NPC kobolds already in the game. Thri-Kreen would also be good.
I'm neutral on tabaxi.

[Oxarhamar]

https://walkenchronicles.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/walkenpusstree.jpg

[Burtle]

https://i.postimg.cc/HL50Z1hj/giphy.gif (https://postimages.org/)

[fatherpirate]

Title says it all... are there really people excited by this?!? We already have shifters that are basically fitting those that want a cat/girl/race fetish. Can think of many other things that would be more fun. Also, fans have been begging for kobolds forever, can we get that? Or another race that is based on strength perhaps? Half-ogre? How about a race with +4 to a stat and -4 to another etc.

So basically, don't give those people what they want, give me what I want?
.......... go buy out SSG
otherwise your wasting your breath.

By the time they tell us this stuff, it has already been decided and is likely almost ready to go.

[Oxarhamar]

So basically, don't give those people what they want, give me what I want?
.......... go buy out SSG
otherwise your wasting your breath.

By the time they tell us this stuff, it has already been decided and is likely almost ready to go.

I really don't think that OP needs to buy SSG to vioce the opinion

In most cases it may be too late however in more than one circumstance feedback has changed the outcome U51 Builder Spender system being a recent example.

[KraftLorance]

Title says it all... are there really people excited by this?!? We already have shifters that are basically fitting those that want a cat/girl/race fetish. Can think of many other things that would be more fun. Also, fans have been begging for kobolds forever, can we get that? Or another race that is based on strength perhaps? Half-ogre? How about a race with +4 to a stat and -4 to another etc.

I'm the kind of guy that LOVES cat-themed races in video games. Mithra are what got me into Final Fantasy 11, and being able to play as a catboi is what kept me in FF14 for as long as I was. So in theory I should be ecstatic for Tabaxi. But I'm actually just kinda "eh" on it.

Mechanically, I think the reason I'm underwhelmed is because the only unique thing I think about regarding Tabaxi is "claws" which is a thing we already have. Where as, with something like Kobold we could have gotten "gems as consumables" or with Bullywugs could have gotten "hopping" and "tongue".

But that's, like, not fair. If I'm being objective, the issue isn't with the actual creative design space. The issue is just with my own lack of creativity in what could be done with Tabaxi to make them unique and satisfying. And since I'm not the one designing the race, it just makes more sense to not project my own lack of creativity onto the project. A "wait and see" with the knowledge that, at the end of the day if the racec doesn't seem fun to play I can just not play them.

Narratively, I have two issues.
1) "They should be Catfolk, and based more off of 3.5 than 5th edition." But this is deeply rooted in my (nearly entirely irrational) fear that as we get more and more new developers who have little or no experience with 3.5, the game will be pushed more and more towards 5th edition (and even if it's just narratively at first, the more it draws on 5th edition the easier it is for a designer to to then justify mechanical design choices that push the game away from the complexity and depth of 3.5)

But if I'm being objective and working through my own basis, this nearly an entire non-issue. In fact, Lynnabel recently did a talk with Strimtom where he basically contextualized my underlying fear and managed to put them to rest (or at least, Lynnabel managed to make me feel that my kneejerk reaction was exactly that- kneejerk. So I try to remain aware of it, and work through it whenever it flares up.)

2)The other issue is that I would have narratively preferred Kobolds or Bullywugs. But again, if I'm being honest, I want Kobolds or Bullywugs done in an immersive way. I want NPCs to react to my being a monstrous race. I want quest paths effected by it. I want it done in a specific way that is totally unreasonable to expect, and that I'm certainly not entitled to.

The alternative that I want to Tabaxi is something that would require exponential work. It would require every quest to be adjusted, with a level of immersion that by it's nature would be cringe and off-putting unless it was of a caliber and quality that is, my its nature, cost prohibitive give the current size of the content already in the game. And it would require that level of work added to every single new quest ad nauseam.

Since I was never going to get that idealized alternative, it just seems silly to compare the Tabaxi to "what could have been™"

So, um, all of this is to say that I agree with Aelonwy.


I'm not exactly excited for Tabaxi, I'm neutral. I've seen many comments of people wanting to play a Tabaxi bard Puss in Boots style but I would much rather try some variant of druid if only druid allowed a full large cat form like panther or tiger.

I'm neutral at the moment. If it ends up flopping, I just won't play it. If we don't get some kind of cat themed Druid interaction I'm #Uninstalling.


Kinda late to ask for their removal at this point, the cats already out of the bag.

I don't have anything to add this this, it's just the kind of pun that makes life worth living.

[Valerianus]

not referring to anything or anyone in particular in this thread, just thinking out loud. this is a warning.


there are so many different varieties of "human-like" beings (i mean complex sentient beings able to develop some e.g. language, some social organization, some customs, some professions & arts, etc etc) in d&d setting, opposed to only 1 on this planet we call earth, i mean we humans, but also opposed to other fantasy settings where yeah, you have variety, but not that much, and most of all, they tend to be by themselves.

in d&d, it is also coded in the rules and some settings, they do actually often live together, mixed, with eveything that living together means, and there are even templates like, half-dragon, half celestial, half fiend, genasi, i mean, they mix, even extraplanar. what about cities like e.g. Union?

if we are talking about npc and adversary, everything seems acceptable, we are even happy to have more variety as possible when it's about new mobs or even mix of them. introducing as mobs redcaps, goblins, lizardmen, literally anything? no problem, it's cool to have moar. what about a boss looking like a minotaur half-dragon? cool, it will look some badass boss, no problem...

....but when it comes to player options...it is not perceived like that. it's furry or whatever. lol what? that's reading a 100% imaginary world thru some irl yaddayadda. all of a sudden, all that love for variety is rejected, when it has something to do with the option, just the option, of impersonating such a being yourself or the eventuality of having to relate to someone else impersonating such a being...hard no.


a kobold half celestial npc? well it may be received maybe as silly, maybe as cool, probably will have a special characterization. but in the end all is ok.
an option to have a kobold half celestial as a player? hard no, generally speaking.


if the kobold half celestial is a weird example, well, put in a cat person instead. or a snake person (yuan-ti), or a lizard person (lizardfolk), or a hyena person (gnoll), or a bird person (aarakocra), or a fish person (merfolk), if you don't want full animal persons go for some lady with snakes on her head, or those winged elves, or add a tail to pdk. or go for some totally imaginary things, whats the difference between a tabaxi and a githyanki? they are both imaginary beings, they are both unreal, one is the same as the other, as imaginary as the other. why is a dragon person ok (dragonborn) but a cat person is not ok?


i sometimes feel weirded out and can't understand what we are talking about. dragon ok. angel ok. devil ok. elemental ok. cat not ok. what about a fish? is a fish furry? well nope, i guess it's scaly.

it's about what some people are doing in real life and then you just see an imaginary world like it was real? dude it's not healthy snap out of it and also dude why and why do you even care.

or is it because some kind of beings like kobolds or tabaxi, to stay in the ddo debate, or a freaklot of d&d other examples if we want to space out, are not part of some big story or some big novel or some big setting, thus not perceived as right or meaningful or interesting from the audience?


we have a really big problem. we interact with only one species able to talk and capable of abstract thinking and that's ourselves, us humans.
and no others.
this messes us up.

[Hutoth]

"The cat is already out of the bag."
I don't have anything to add this this, it's just the kind of pun that makes life worth living.


Bullywugs could have gotten "hopping" and "tongue".

Might I suggest, "Cat got your tongue".

:p

[Quarterling]

>Please don't give us cat race
Gotta appeal to the furries UwU
*meow* :3c

[Jerevth]

If it keeps the game afloat, more power to 'em.

If the race is built well, I'll even buy it.

I don't tie my entire identity into someone else's character decisions, though.

[SilentRunning]

Aselrik



As someone with experience in the game industry, I can tell you why SSG has not added Kobolds (yet). Kobolds are *not* humanoid, and I don't mean in the D&D sense. I mean, their skeletal structure is so dramatically different that it would require unique art assets for every item that needs to be displayed on them, kind of like Warforged and docents, but even worse. For example, look at a kobold's leg and a human's leg, and realize that you can't just slap boots on that critter and call it a day. In addition, that also means they need new animations for everything that a player needs to be able to do.


You can't slap boots on a Shifter or Dragonborn leg and foot either, so using this is a weak comparison, and you would know that "having spent time in the gaming industry" and they wouldn't need new animations, the animations are already there, so they only need to add a bit more for player characters, you seem to forget that EG7 has been moving devs from other companies like PGI over to SSG for certain time frames to work on products, so the manpower is there to do so. The "tail tech" is in the game as of the release of Tieflings so that shouldn't be too hard to adapt.

All you said more sounds like a way to divert their attention away from what they're doing to what YOU want.

[Bjond]

my signature. Sophie the Cat Burglar
How many cats did you have to burgle for the title and uh, what did you do with them all?

I'm hoping you're not a kitty version of Cruella D'Ville with a tabby & calico coat ..


We already have shifters that are basically fitting those that want a cat/girl/race fetish
Hmm. Shifters are knuckle-dragging Apes. They're not even remotely feline.

Ah, well, dunno why they pick the races they do. DDO monster art is stellar, but character art is abysmal. Perhaps they're using the monster artist to do characters and there's some "thematic leakage".

[blarhblarhblarh]

And Shifters already look like a thundercat mixed with planet of the apes.

Actually shifters really need more work and even class sinergy. Never seen anyone using it willing after grabbing the past life.

[stitch_evil_koala]

Title says it all... are there really people excited by this?!? We already have shifters that are basically fitting those that want a cat/girl/race fetish. Can think of many other things that would be more fun. Also, fans have been begging for kobolds forever, can we get that? Or another race that is based on strength perhaps? Half-ogre? How about a race with +4 to a stat and -4 to another etc.

I am going through the lamm test for Tabaxi and I like the visuals. I was very disappointed with the Shifter race when it had come out as i'm more accustomed to the 4e where they appeared more like wolves.

Everyone has a preference, and yes, including me. I like stealthy creatures that excel in sneaking and rogue-like capabilities, but I was so tired of playing Halfling or other Humanoid types. I'd love to see Kitsune or the 3.5 equivalent, I forget the name offhand, but fantasy is fantasy. I am very happy to be getting some actual beast races in for once.

[Aelonwy]

I am going through the lamm test for Tabaxi and I like the visuals. I was very disappointed with the Shifter race when it had come out as i'm more accustomed to the 4e where they appeared more like wolves.

Everyone has a preference, and yes, including me. I like stealthy creatures that excel in sneaking and rogue-like capabilities, but I was so tired of playing Halfling or other Humanoid types. I'd love to see Kitsune or the 3.5 equivalent, I forget the name offhand, but fantasy is fantasy. I am very happy to be getting some actual beast races in for once.

I tried the visuals on Lammania too. Once Lynnabel pointed out the scroll bar on the character creation screen my main complaints about Tabaxi narrow down into... their skin texture doesn't look enough like fur its still looks plastic-like, their proportions appear to be off at least for the females the muzzle/snout is slightly too big for their faces, their arms are too long or their torso is too short one or the other, they have a permanent scar that Lynnabel said could be removed with Facial Details selector but even scrolling down I couldn't find that one, and finally hair dyes change their marking colors but only the ones on the top of their head. It would be way more awesome if it changed the color of the markings on the whole body or if we could also change the fur color.

Of the above issues probably the toughest to fix but the most important to me would be the proportions issue.

https://i.imgur.com/FILc573.jpg
I was pointing out the weirdness of missing markings on the back of the thighs but you can also see how the elbows hang well below the waist almost to the hip line and the fingertips well past the knees. Just really weird proportions. Elongating the torso some would probably fix both.

https://i.imgur.com/Ud1qKqr.jpg
This is a female Tabaxi face - on the left is exactly how it came out of the Character Creation, on the right is a quick and dirty photoshop reducing the image size 10% and then just pasting the smaller snout onto a duplicate of the left side image to show how it looks better/more in proportion with a slightly smaller snout.

[NemesisAlien]

not referring to anything or anyone in particular in this thread, just thinking out loud. this is a warning.


there are so many different varieties of "human-like" beings (i mean complex sentient beings able to develop some e.g. language, some social organization, some customs, some professions & arts, etc etc) in d&d setting, opposed to only 1 on this planet we call earth, i mean we humans, but also opposed to other fantasy settings where yeah, you have variety, but not that much, and most of all, they tend to be by themselves.

in d&d, it is also coded in the rules and some settings, they do actually often live together, mixed, with eveything that living together means, and there are even templates like, half-dragon, half celestial, half fiend, genasi, i mean, they mix, even extraplanar. what about cities like e.g. Union?

if we are talking about npc and adversary, everything seems acceptable, we are even happy to have more variety as possible when it's about new mobs or even mix of them. introducing as mobs redcaps, goblins, lizardmen, literally anything? no problem, it's cool to have moar. what about a boss looking like a minotaur half-dragon? cool, it will look some badass boss, no problem...

....but when it comes to player options...it is not perceived like that. it's furry or whatever. lol what? that's reading a 100% imaginary world thru some irl yaddayadda. all of a sudden, all that love for variety is rejected, when it has something to do with the option, just the option, of impersonating such a being yourself or the eventuality of having to relate to someone else impersonating such a being...hard no.


a kobold half celestial npc? well it may be received maybe as silly, maybe as cool, probably will have a special characterization. but in the end all is ok.
an option to have a kobold half celestial as a player? hard no, generally speaking.


if the kobold half celestial is a weird example, well, put in a cat person instead. or a snake person (yuan-ti), or a lizard person (lizardfolk), or a hyena person (gnoll), or a bird person (aarakocra), or a fish person (merfolk), if you don't want full animal persons go for some lady with snakes on her head, or those winged elves, or add a tail to pdk. or go for some totally imaginary things, whats the difference between a tabaxi and a githyanki? they are both imaginary beings, they are both unreal, one is the same as the other, as imaginary as the other. why is a dragon person ok (dragonborn) but a cat person is not ok?


i sometimes feel weirded out and can't understand what we are talking about. dragon ok. angel ok. devil ok. elemental ok. cat not ok. what about a fish? is a fish furry? well nope, i guess it's scaly.

it's about what some people are doing in real life and then you just see an imaginary world like it was real? dude it's not healthy snap out of it and also dude why and why do you even care.

or is it because some kind of beings like kobolds or tabaxi, to stay in the ddo debate, or a freaklot of d&d other examples if we want to space out, are not part of some big story or some big novel or some big setting, thus not perceived as right or meaningful or interesting from the audience?


we have a really big problem. we interact with only one species able to talk and capable of abstract thinking and that's ourselves, us humans.
and no others.
this messes us up.

Its called racial superiority. (Refer to lack of any tragedy that isnt Europoid in mainstream media.)
Another factor is comfort zone. (But that doesnt explain why they didnt kick up a fuss when shifter and tailless koblods came around)
And finally but not least inflexible adaptability. (D&D after all is slowly becoming an old people game)

[Annex]

It's too late now. Always has been. Always will be.

[Oxarhamar]

It's too late now. Always has been. Always will be.

Cat it is next life then