One of these statements is true and shouldn't be.

[krimsonrane]

Which is true?

1- One level of wizard lets you cast any wizard spell in the game.
2- One level of cleric allows you to turn any undead in the game.
3- One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.
4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.

[Discpsycho]

The title, as none of the rest are true.

The least untrue is #3, but Rogue-splashed characters cannot open every door in the game without:

a) investing skill points at each level, which may be prohibitive on classes receiving few skill points and/or not boosting Int
b) specific trapping gear, which may or may not be mutually exclusive with (I haven't run the numbers)
c) a hefty Int investment outside of gear

Runner-up is #4, which is technically true because Fighter 1 grants a feat, and you can pick up a single exotic proficiency with that feat. But the Fighter splash only grants martial and tower shield proficiency - the feat can just as easily be taken at any level divisible by three, so I wouldn't say Fighter grants an exotic weapon proficiency

[merridyan]

Which is true?

1- One level of wizard lets you cast any wizard spell in the game.
2- One level of cleric allows you to turn any undead in the game.
3- One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.
4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.

None of them are true... a level one character cannot do any of this :P

[Suggestion]

First off some doors can't be opened without the correct key, they can't be unlocked.

That said it is possible to build a character with 1 level of rogue (and no artificer levels) that can unlock any door (that can be unlocked) at level as long as you have a high INT (including INT from past lives) and good DEX. You also need the gear and a +8 tomes help.

I regularly build such a toon although I usually add a second level of rogue to get evasion.

[krimsonrane]

The title, as none of the rest are true.

The least untrue is #3, but Rogue-splashed characters cannot open every door in the game without:

a) investing skill points at each level, which may be prohibitive on classes receiving few skill points and/or not boosting Int
b) specific trapping gear, which may or may not be mutually exclusive with (I haven't run the numbers)
c) a hefty Int investment outside of gear

Runner-up is #4, which is technically true because Fighter 1 grants a feat, and you can pick up a single exotic proficiency with that feat. But the Fighter splash only grants martial and tower shield proficiency - the feat can just as easily be taken at any level divisible by three, so I wouldn't say Fighter grants an exotic weapon proficiency

So... #3 can't open doors but can do every trap is what you're saying?

[krimsonrane]

None of them are true... a level one character cannot do any of this :P

Exhibit A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK2v-Tlg-RE&t=433s

[krimsonrane]

First off some doors can't be opened without the correct key, they can't be unlocked.

That was unnecessary to even mention.

[krimsonrane]

None of them are true... a level one character cannot do any of this :P

ahh. I see what you did there lol

[Steeme]

Why does it bother you if someone sacrifices a capstone to do traps?

At level 30, I need 0 levels of Rogue and 0 levels of Artificer to unlock doors and disarm traps.

[Mindos]

At level 30, I need 0 levels of Rogue and 0 levels of Artificer to unlock doors and disarm traps.

I am confused.

[Wizard1406]

Probably Froggo. But he is way overpriced IMO. (wasted opportunity for SSG to make money here... I would buy permanent hirelings seperately for a decent price but I'm not gonna pay for all the cosmetics too, that are useless to me)

[J1NG]

I am confused.

Alchemist Melt Lock?
Bell?
Break Lock? (Is this even still a thing?)

J1NG

[Steeme]

Probably Froggo

Yes, it's Froggo. I'm not going to comment on the price though, since technically everything in this game is "overpriced". I have money, so I bought it. I even pay a premium as a Canadian.

[dredre9987]

Which is true?

1- One level of wizard lets you cast any wizard spell in the game.
2- One level of cleric allows you to turn any undead in the game.
3- One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.
4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.

Which do you think is true?

[SlowDM]

3. 1 level of rogue but very difficult to open every lock. Less than 10 locks are extreme.

[krimsonrane]

Which do you think is true?

One level of rogue is the truest. All locks is iffy. Depends on int, PLs and gear. But all traps at any level? I've done it.
It makes rogues far less appealing outside of a splash. Anything they can do, another class can do just as well if not better.

[Marshal_Lannes]

One level of rogue is the truest. All locks is iffy. Depends on int, PLs and gear. But all traps at any level? I've done it.
It makes rogues far less appealing outside of a splash. Anything they can do, another class can do just as well if not better.

1. Is the least true.
2. Is next.
3. Is true with appropriate gear and a high enough INT.
4. Is mostly true although you only get one exotic.

Your last statement isn't true. No other class can assassinate. No other class can get as many sneak attack die. In the current meta, no other class makes as good of an archer. Rogues are also one of the top 5 defensive classes if built right so while some builds do that better, they beat a lot of others.

[droid327]

Which is true?

1- One level of wizard lets you cast any wizard spell in the game.
2- One level of cleric allows you to turn any undead in the game.
3- One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.
4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.

1 - It does, if you have enough UMD and have a scroll of the spell
2 - It does, if you have enough Turn Undead bonuses stacked
3 - It does, if you have enough trapping bonuses stacked
4 - Not even 20 Fighter will give you exotic profs automatically. A /1 Fig has all the same proficiencies as a 20 Fig

So Rogue is no different mechanically than the other examples...the only difference is trapping bonuses are cheaper and more plentiful than turn, and many wiz spells are rare scrolls

[Question2005]

Its just another thing from D&D that was broken with the power creep and the poor translation of skills to DDO.

UMD is the biggest culprit. With tomes and a gear swap, any character can use raise dead scrolls easily in heroics. In D&D, you simply wouldnt have be able to make those UMD checks if it was a CC skill.

In D&D, you wouldnt have enough skill points to max out trapping skills at every level. For example, a ranger gets 6 + int mod skill points per level...but in D&D, they have a LOT of useful skills that you would want to max out. In DDO, most of their skills are useless because the game is a hack n slash game. There are no knowledge skills that could make or break a quest, hide and move silently are not used to scout, many skills like survival, climb and ride arent in the game at all. In DDO, rangers still get 6 + int mod skill points per level, but they only have two really useful skills : search and spot, so they can afford to max out trapping skills every level even though they are cross class skills.

Things that were balanced specifically for D&D which places a large emphasis on overcoming obstacles with limited resources obviously do not function well in DDO, where everyone can run around with 100 resurrection scrolls and 1,000 potions of various types like its no big deal, as well as being fully loaded with magical items at level 2.

[voxson5]

4 - Not even 20 Fighter will give you exotic profs automatically. A /1 Fig has all the same proficiencies as a 20 Fig


Except that was never the expectation provided in the OP.



4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.


What is it to use a weapon or shield? Equip it & swing it of course. So 4 looks like the best answer because proficiencies don't matter to whether a weapon or shield can be used or not in DDO.

But even then every option is false because in DDO wizards need sufficient UMD to fulfil #1 and just 1 wiz level won't cut it by itself, clerics cannot turn dracoliches so can never support #2, there are plenty of undisarmable traps and unpickable doors so #3 is out, and level gating prohibits using overlevel weapons & shields.

The only correct answer in this thread is Discpyscho's.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Which is true?

1- One level of wizard lets you cast any wizard spell in the game.
2- One level of cleric allows you to turn any undead in the game.
3- One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.
4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.


Try making one and see if you still have the same viewpoint.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The game I want to play, is the one where any six people (or less) can join and complete any quest.
It is no fun at all to sit around and wait for someone. to so a quest you want to do.

Why is Crucible so rarely run? No one has a build that can do the swim.
What is to me an otherwise fun quest, becomes a complete waste of time, when you get to the swim part and watch one guy die. then I die.
Then I sit there while the other four just stand around like some miracle is going to happen.

While I watch my XP pot tick away.......

No fun at all.

Same with some quests where no one can get a trap.

Especially in a group of first lifers.

How many quests are skipped on hardcore?
That is not fun.

And... if you rolled up a Rogue, with the idea that your entire purpose is to do traps....
What do you do when a second or thord Rogue joins the group? (or worse yet, an Arty)

You miss the point of Rogue's entirely when you box them in to being trappers.

And not being able to do a quest for whatever reason, is no fun at all.
For anyone.

[Chacka_DDO]

I see absolutely no problem that one rogue level is enough to enable the ability to do traps in general, I would even say that should be possible even without any rogue or artificer level, the question is for me only how you should do it in a way that it feels good and is fun and not too easy but also not way too difficult (well balanced).

[krimsonrane]

1. Is the least true.
2. Is next.
3. Is true with appropriate gear and a high enough INT.
4. Is mostly true although you only get one exotic.

Your last statement isn't true. No other class can assassinate. No other class can get as many sneak attack die. In the current meta, no other class makes as good of an archer. Rogues are also one of the top 5 defensive classes if built right so while some builds do that better, they beat a lot of others.

Bards can assassinate. Sneak attacks are available on multiple classes from monks to wolf druids. Rangers and artis would argue the archer point. That defense you speak of is centered on temporary short lived dodge bonuses.

[archest]

I would say without evasion attempting to disarm some traps could result in your death. as long as yoru fighter friend with raise dead scrolls is along I guess your covered there.

[dredre9987]

The game I want to play, is the one where any six people (or less) can join and complete any quest.
It is no fun at all to sit around and wait for someone. to so a quest you want to do.

Why is Crucible so rarely run? No one has a build that can do the swim.
What is to me an otherwise fun quest, becomes a complete waste of time, when you get to the swim part and watch one guy die. then I die.
Then I sit there while the other four just stand around like some miracle is going to happen.

While I watch my XP pot tick away.......

No fun at all.

Same with some quests where no one can get a trap.

Especially in a group of first lifers.

How many quests are skipped on hardcore?
That is not fun.

And... if you rolled up a Rogue, with the idea that your entire purpose is to do traps....
What do you do when a second or thord Rogue joins the group? (or worse yet, an Arty)

You miss the point of Rogue's entirely when you box them in to being trappers.

And not being able to do a quest for whatever reason, is no fun at all.
For anyone.


I just need to point out that any build can do the swim. I have done it on every single class. With no exception. You can always stop and heal up with potions as you go. If your hp is allowing you to get one shot on those spikes, you have other issues.

[noinfo]

Bards can assassinate. Sneak attacks are available on multiple classes from monks to wolf druids. Rangers and artis would argue the archer point. That defense you speak of is centered on temporary short lived dodge bonuses.

Bards can assassinate and arti's can do traps, not sure what the point is your making?

SA is available on multiple classes but rogue has the highest as was stated.

Rangers and Arti's can argue all they like however from a straight out $ damage point most builds use rogue for a reason. They are higher damage. Others do have their advantages.

That short lived bonus is not limited by charges and can be timed to provide a huge bonus, time your pulls.

Rogues have a huge damage for bosses and have the ability to remove sneak attack immunity.

[noinfo]

Which is true?

1- One level of wizard lets you cast any wizard spell in the game.
2- One level of cleric allows you to turn any undead in the game.
3- One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.
4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.

Well #4 is definitely true, with it I can get all my martial weapons and that leaves having only to take 9 exotic feats (at most) 1 of which I get automatically for my fighter level, spending feats like spending skill points.

Wait! did you know that 1 level of wizard can give you magic missile immunity? Is that fair?
What about the poor clerics with death ward spells, now that we have items that can do the same? Or res people, people can use scrolls?

If someone with 1 level of rogue wants to do massive gear swaps and go it without evasion more power to them. My pure rogue is happy not to have to do it.

[AlsoWondering]

The game I want to play, is the one where any six people (or less) can join and complete any quest.
It is no fun at all to sit around and wait for someone. to so a quest you want to do.

Why is Crucible so rarely run? No one has a build that can do the swim.
What is to me an otherwise fun quest, becomes a complete waste of time, when you get to the swim part and watch one guy die. then I die.
Then I sit there while the other four just stand around like some miracle is going to happen.

While I watch my XP pot tick away.......

No fun at all.

Same with some quests where no one can get a trap.

Especially in a group of first lifers.

How many quests are skipped on hardcore?
That is not fun.

And... if you rolled up a Rogue, with the idea that your entire purpose is to do traps....
What do you do when a second or thord Rogue joins the group? (or worse yet, an Arty)

You miss the point of Rogue's entirely when you box them in to being trappers.

And not being able to do a quest for whatever reason, is no fun at all.
For anyone.

Reading this reminded me of a toon I ran 2 quests with on Korthos. He was a FTR1/CLR1 and when I asked him why he didn't heal himself nor me, he told me his WIS was only 8 and he couldn't actually cast any spells. He started as a FTR and when took a level of cleric so that he could cure spells, but he failed to realize he needed more WIS.

[Enoach]

Which is true?

1- One level of wizard lets you cast any wizard spell in the game.
2- One level of cleric allows you to turn any undead in the game.
3- One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.
4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.

There is an element of truth in some of these one

1 - Opens up the option to cast using a caster level check vs needing UMD (this is true of one level of any caster class and also a feature that half-elves can utilize)
2 - Tougher and not all, but when we talk turn this would not be the 'destroy' but the 'cower' - Of course mix this with Paladin for the other class and this could be true
3 - This has actually been true since opening day. The reason is because I believe 80% of the skills comes from Gear and Buffs
4 - This is true two ways - Fighter feat or as a Dwarf since Dwarven War axe becomes a martial weapon

[krimsonrane]

Try making one and see if you still have the same viewpoint.

What makes you think I haven't?

[krimsonrane]

Bards can assassinate and arti's can do traps, not sure what the point is your making?

SA is available on multiple classes but rogue has the highest as was stated.

Rangers and Arti's can argue all they like however from a straight out $ damage point most builds use rogue for a reason. They are higher damage. Others do have their advantages.

That short lived bonus is not limited by charges and can be timed to provide a huge bonus, time your pulls.

Rogues have a huge damage for bosses and have the ability to remove sneak attack immunity.

That was a reply not a point.

" Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
1. Is the least true.
2. Is next.
3. Is true with appropriate gear and a high enough INT.
4. Is mostly true although you only get one exotic.

Your last statement isn't true. No other class can assassinate. No other class can get as many sneak attack die. In the current meta, no other class makes as good of an archer. Rogues are also one of the top 5 defensive classes if built right so while some builds do that better, they beat a lot of others."

[Memnir]

Eh, that's just how the game's synergy has swung over time. I don't have a problem with it, truth be told. But, if you do - that's your windmill to tilt at and I wish you much luck.

[noinfo]

That was a reply not a point.

" Quote Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes View Post
1. Is the least true.
2. Is next.
3. Is true with appropriate gear and a high enough INT.
4. Is mostly true although you only get one exotic.

Your last statement isn't true. No other class can assassinate. No other class can get as many sneak attack die. In the current meta, no other class makes as good of an archer. Rogues are also one of the top 5 defensive classes if built right so while some builds do that better, they beat a lot of others."

Well any class that wants bird tree could possibly assassinate, how well well...

What other class does get as many sneak attack dice?
I have seen the numbers break down (does not always reflect how they play) but archer wise none stand out as being as high in damage.



My actual last statement was:

Rogues have a huge damage for bosses and have the ability to remove sneak attack immunity.

And you said this was incorrect?

[krimsonrane]

Well any class that wants bird tree could possibly assassinate, how well well...

What other class does get as many sneak attack dice?
I have seen the numbers break down (does not always reflect how they play) but archer wise none stand out as being as high in damage.



My actual last statement was:

Rogues have a huge damage for bosses and have the ability to remove sneak attack immunity.

And you said this was incorrect?

You're right. Bird assassination is a thing. Another former rogue ability passed off for anyone to use like party favors.
You're talking about quantity. Nothing in my OP mentioned damage or the quantity of SA. Also, we're not talking about damage in the tens of thousands per hit. Prolly Less than a grand at cap. Not much different than an EKs elemental weapon damage.
Yes. Rogues (Not exclusively) can reduce particular immunity's. So can a thunderforged weapon, certain ED's, AP's and a dozen other ways.

I don't know what you are talking about being incorrect. Refresh my memory.

[krimsonrane]

Eh, that's just how the game's synergy has swung over time. I don't have a problem with it, truth be told. But, if you do - that's your windmill to tilt at and I wish you much luck.

I'm making commentary as a customer and player, not writing a petition.
Do you play a pure rogue? Just curious. If so, what kind? Stick, Mech, assassin?

[noinfo]

You're right. Bird assassination is a thing. Another former rogue ability passed off for anyone to use like party favors.
You're talking about quantity. Nothing in my OP mentioned damage or the quantity of SA. Also, we're not talking about damage in the tens of thousands per hit. Prolly Less than a grand at cap. Not much different than an EKs elemental weapon damage.
Yes. Rogues (Not exclusively) can reduce particular immunity's. So can a thunderforged weapon, certain ED's, AP's and a dozen other ways.

I don't know what you are talking about being incorrect. Refresh my memory.

So I should also be upset that my wizard is no longer required to cast blur on everyone all the time (an arcane only ability) or that there are other forms of healing?

If you don't want to discuss quantity then all casters can be replaced due to scrolls. Though comparing SA damage to that of elemental damage of an EK at cap is not even close to comparable with absorption immunity.

Thunderforged etc can bypass fortification as can many things but siginficantly fewer can bypass a creatures innate immunity to SA.

You said- Your last statement isn't true.
My last statement in the post you quoted was- Rogues have a huge damage for bosses and have the ability to remove sneak attack immunity.

Not sure how anyone could justify that not being true.

You are hanging your identity on being able to disable traps, this really seems to be your issue. My rogue is happy for others to do the traps so that it can concentrate on eliminating things. By your logic no group should ever need more than 1 rogue or even have no rogue at all? Intead of wringing your hands on the forums, if its important to you just say that your are specced for traps and please let me do them.

[noinfo]

I'm making commentary as a customer and player, not writing a petition.
Do you play a pure rogue? Just curious. If so, what kind? Stick, Mech, assassin?

I agree with his statement and I do play a pure rogue, Assassin though I have also played mech, and have tried stick.

[Weemadarthur]

One level of rogue is the truest. All locks is iffy. Depends on int, PLs and gear. But all traps at any level? I've done it.
It makes rogues far less appealing outside of a splash. Anything they can do, another class can do just as well if not better.

Sorry but the problem here sounds more like you don't know how to build and/or play a rogue well. Rogues are a lot more than trap monkeys.

[krimsonrane]

So I should also be upset that my wizard is no longer required to cast blur on everyone all the time (an arcane only ability) or that there are other forms of healing?

If you don't want to discuss quantity then all casters can be replaced due to scrolls. Though comparing SA damage to that of elemental damage of an EK at cap is not even close to comparable with absorption immunity.

Thunderforged etc can bypass fortification as can many things but siginficantly fewer can bypass a creatures innate immunity to SA.

You said- Your last statement isn't true.
My last statement in the post you quoted was- Rogues have a huge damage for bosses and have the ability to remove sneak attack immunity.

Not sure how anyone could justify that not being true.

You are hanging your identity on being able to disable traps, this really seems to be your issue. My rogue is happy for others to do the traps so that it can concentrate on eliminating things. By your logic no group should ever need more than 1 rogue or even have no rogue at all? Intead of wringing your hands on the forums, if its important to you just say that your are specced for traps and please let me do them.

You are making no sense at all regarding the OP. Sounds like you're making things up just to argue. But lets address one which is relevant.
"By your logic no group should ever need more than 1 rogue or even have no rogue at all?"

What exactly can a rogue do that no other class with one level of rogue can't do? You seem to pin everything on SA and their ability to reduce immunity to the thing you're calling their claim to fame. Many classes have the ability to reduce resistance to the damage type they use. My sorc EK can reduce resistance to his main attack of acid.

Just like you, I have a pure rogue I sometimes play. (if you have a pure rogue) At one time it was my favorite class. I have literally soloed Tempest Spine EE on my rogue mech. Back when they were more unique. I used to carry soulstones in tours through The Claw Of Volkoor when only rogues could go through without being detected. I was playing assassins when the devs wouldn't allow assassinate in epic quests. I've tanked raids using a pure rogue.
That's just not the case anymore.

To test my theories, I've created ranger/rogue/art hybrids with better sneak skills and better damage using xbows.
I've made bards with 2 levels of rogue who could do any trap and open any door AND had a better assassinate function.
Over the years I've played a dozen + rogue lives. So I have a little experience dating back to update 3.

I'm telling you that today, one or two levels of rogue is enough to do whatever roguish things you need doing. Going pure is just a matter of preference as their former uniqueness and versatility is gone.
Actually, with froggo, you don't even need a rogue at all in many cases. Something that was stated in this thread.

[Certon]

Which is true?

1- One level of wizard lets you cast any wizard spell in the game.
2- One level of cleric allows you to turn any undead in the game.
3- One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.
4- One level of fighter allows you to use any weapon/shield (including exotics) in the game.

Your implication is that rogue splashes shouldn't be as good as pure rogues with traps. If they made traps that were only able to be disarmed by high level pure rogues, it would be the only mechanic in the game which demands a class be pure to get a job done.

They already made it to where you have to have a rogue or artificer level to be effective with traps at all, with the Trapfinding feat. They don't need to take it to the next level--trust me on this one. It would be more than a little upsetting to a lot of people who worked HARD to make their splashes work--people who started a Human Barbarian 19/Rogue 1 with an 18 INT and read a +4 INT tome JUST so they had enough Skill Points to make it work.

[ahpook]

Your implication is that rogue splashes shouldn't be as good as pure rogues with traps. If they made traps that were only able to be disarmed by high level pure rogues, it would be the only mechanic in the game which demands a class be pure to get a job done.


This. It was debated many times since the game launched and the pure rogue side was always shot down for good reason.

In the OPs list the rogue question is different than the other three. A trap is an obstacle that needs to be overcome. In the other three examples (spells, turns and weapons) are tools that are used to overcome obstacles. The comparison is nonsensical on that basis.

[krimsonrane]

Sorry but the problem here sounds more like you don't know how to build and/or play a rogue well. Rogues are a lot more than trap monkeys.

Wow... if I had a nickle for every time someone said that nonsense in this forum whenever anyone offers their own experience I'd be rich.
It's the assumers fallback. You assume you think you know what someone is capable of while putting on airs that you are so overqualified that you can make such assumptions.

[krimsonrane]

Your implication is that rogue splashes shouldn't be as good as pure rogues with traps. If they made traps that were only able to be disarmed by high level pure rogues, it would be the only mechanic in the game which demands a class be pure to get a job done.

They already made it to where you have to have a rogue or artificer level to be effective with traps at all, with the Trapfinding feat. They don't need to take it to the next level--trust me on this one. It would be more than a little upsetting to a lot of people who worked HARD to make their splashes work--people who started a Human Barbarian 19/Rogue 1 with an 18 INT and read a +4 INT tome JUST so they had enough Skill Points to make it work.

Only mechanic in the game? What level do you need to be to cast a 9th level spell? What level do you need to be to turn a lich?
"upsetting to a lot of people who worked HARD to make their splashes work" I HAVE WORKED HARD TO MAKE MY SPLASHES WORK. Been there and done that over and over.

It's not even close to realistic to say a toon with 1 rogue can go into a legendary elite raid and do every trap any more than 1 wizard can go in and CC a room or 1 bard can fully buff an entire party.

Rogues have been left behind, edged out, farmed out, and turned into a flavor class. There's 3 types available. Mech, Stick, Assassin. So many classes can do everything they do that it's become unnecessary to get more than a splash. It was just a few weeks ago that the devs DOUBLED their assassinate bonuses. Why did they do that? Because they'd been left behind while everything else moved forward.
Ok. So now they have a decent chance of assassinations at high levels. About the same as a DC caster. But why do you need a rogue to assassinate? There's a tree anyone can get that gives you a bird who assassinates. A bard can both CC and assassinate without worrying about fighting. Most nukers can blow entire rooms up in one shot.

Look up quick stick or staff builds and rogue isn't the main class. Until recently Mechs were replaced by inquisitives.

Anything I say here will have no affect on gameplay whatsoever. The devs aren't waiting for me to give them advice. And as you can see, the population could care less.

[krimsonrane]

This. It was debated many times since the game launched and the pure rogue side was always shot down for good reason.

In the OPs list the rogue question is different than the other three. A trap is an obstacle that needs to be overcome. In the other three examples (spells, turns and weapons) are tools that are used to overcome obstacles. The comparison is nonsensical on that basis.

A trap is an obstacle that needs to be overcome. But a trash mob isn't? (spells, turns and weapons) are tools that are used to overcome obstacles. But thieves tools aren't?


Some of these comments being aimed at me for speaking from experience makes it sound like I'm some kind of boogie man who will magically influence the minds of players and devs and suddenly everyone's build will be broken. That's the nonsensical thing happening here.

[Weemadarthur]

Wow... if I had a nickle for every time someone said that nonsense in this forum whenever anyone offers their own experience I'd be rich.
It's the assumers fallback. You assume you think you know what someone is capable of while putting on airs that you are so overqualified that you can make such assumptions.

No not at all. I just know what the rogue is capable of as either a pure build or almost pure build. If you also know that and are able to both play and build a rogue well (Not an easy feat as rogue has one of the higher skill ceilings in the game) then you will also know that saying anything a rogue can do can be done better by another class is pure hyperbolic nonsense. If on the other hand you don't have either the skill or build knowledge to actually get the most from a rogue then your point of view makes sense but is based on a false premise (ie as you can't do it can't be done mentality).

The simple fact is that rogues are exceptionally good at what they do if you know how to both play and build them. They however are not easy to play or build well. Trashing a class because you erroneously think that trapping is the most important part of the rogue toolkit severely undermines your argument. Yes a 2 rog/x anything else build will be able to do traps almost as well as a pure rog. It wont (with a few notable exceptions) be able to dps as well, instakill as well or in some cases survive as well. Those 3 traits are what makes rogues so good and generally the more rogue in the build the better it can do them.

Just for the record I myself am an above average rogue but no where near the best. I do however know a few players that I would put in that category and have seen what they are capable of on their builds compared to what I can achieve on mine. Anyone who thinks that rogues aren't top tier dps really need to look into what the class is actually capable of in those players hands.

[Enoach]

... What level do you need to be to cast a 9th level spell? What level do you need to be to turn a lich?
"upsetting to a lot of people who worked HARD to make their splashes work" I HAVE WORKED HARD TO MAKE MY SPLASHES WORK. Been there and done that over and over.

It's not even close to realistic to say a toon with 1 rogue can go into a legendary elite raid and do every trap any more than 1 wizard can go in and CC a room or 1 bard can fully buff an entire party.

...

The lowest level a character can be to cast a 9th level spell is Character Level 15. The success of which will be determined by their UMD or Caster Level Check.

I'm not sure a lich can be turned by even a pure cleric or a maximized turning build - I believe lich is generally a Boss level creature.

I think you are approaching this from the wrong perspective. Have you considered why some builds can be very successful in doing trapping/opening skills with only 1 or 2 levels?

Consider that for Heroic leveling the most skill points you can put into any skill is 23. When you have a class that has access to a skill and leveling a class that does not, it costs 2 points to level. This allows these builds to also achieve 23 at level 20. Of course, they are trading off as those are 2 points per level and that could mean between 2 and 8 points per level dedicated to just keeping those skills maxed.

Next, trapping skills in the epic and legendary levels are looking at 100+ in those skills in order to be successful. That means even a pure rogue/artificer has to look towards other places.

This means Ability Modifiers (INT/DEX), Buffs and Gear -> none of these are limited to a single class.

But even that being said, in real life how many times have you run into someone that has been labeled an expert (lots of education dedicated) on a subject and someone that just dabbles only to find the dabbler (hobby) is better at it, because he has knowledge in other areas :)

[Certon]

Only mechanic in the game? What level do you need to be to cast a 9th level spell? What level do you need to be to turn a lich?
"upsetting to a lot of people who worked HARD to make their splashes work" I HAVE WORKED HARD TO MAKE MY SPLASHES WORK. Been there and done that over and over.

It's not even close to realistic to say a toon with 1 rogue can go into a legendary elite raid and do every trap any more than 1 wizard can go in and CC a room or 1 bard can fully buff an entire party.

Rogues have been left behind, edged out, farmed out, and turned into a flavor class. There's 3 types available. Mech, Stick, Assassin. So many classes can do everything they do that it's become unnecessary to get more than a splash. It was just a few weeks ago that the devs DOUBLED their assassinate bonuses. Why did they do that? Because they'd been left behind while everything else moved forward.
Ok. So now they have a decent chance of assassinations at high levels. About the same as a DC caster. But why do you need a rogue to assassinate? There's a tree anyone can get that gives you a bird who assassinates. A bard can both CC and assassinate without worrying about fighting. Most nukers can blow entire rooms up in one shot.

Look up quick stick or staff builds and rogue isn't the main class. Until recently Mechs were replaced by inquisitives.

Anything I say here will have no affect on gameplay whatsoever. The devs aren't waiting for me to give them advice. And as you can see, the population could care less.

You can play any adventure in the game without needing 9th level Wizard spells--heck without needing ANY spells if you have the right build and equipment.

But there are places in the game where there's a secret door with a very high DC that has to be found or you're stuck. Castle Ravenloft has one such door. True Seeing doesn't work on it. So it's either a rogue, rogue splash, or a DDO store purchase to move forward with the quest.

Rogue abilities are critical at times. Ghost of a Chance, for example has a trap at the end that can WIPE parties out if they don't have a trapper.

And yes, if a 20 rogue has a 100 in Disable Device and a 1 rogue/19 barbarian has a 100 in disable device, THEY ARE EQUIVALENT. It just took the Barbarian (approximately) 2x as many points to train her disable to 23. IT WAS HARDER TO DO. Just because you're a rogue (and for rogues, traps are merely ONE of many abilities they have) doesn't mean you need to be the best at traps. It just means that if you WANT to be better at traps, it is WAY easier, provided you don't gimp yourself with a low INT, WIS, and DEX. If you did that, then you'd have a poor build.

Splashes have to invest HEAVILY to get elite trapping skills--in stat tomes, skill tomes, and sinking build points in the beginning into INT, WIS, and DEX, and let me tell you, a 1 ROG/19 FIG is a much better fighter investing in STR and CON.

[krimsonrane]

You can play any adventure in the game without needing 9th level Wizard spells--heck without needing ANY spells if you have the right build and equipment.

But there are places in the game where there's a secret door with a very high DC that has to be found or you're stuck. Castle Ravenloft has one such door. True Seeing doesn't work on it. So it's either a rogue, rogue splash, or a DDO store purchase to move forward with the quest.

Rogue abilities are critical at times. Ghost of a Chance, for example has a trap at the end that can WIPE parties out if they don't have a trapper.

And yes, if a 20 rogue has a 100 in Disable Device and a 1 rogue/19 barbarian has a 100 in disable device, THEY ARE EQUIVALENT. It just took the Barbarian (approximately) 2x as many points to train her disable to 23. IT WAS HARDER TO DO. Just because you're a rogue (and for rogues, traps are merely ONE of many abilities they have) doesn't mean you need to be the best at traps. It just means that if you WANT to be better at traps, it is WAY easier, provided you don't gimp yourself with a low INT, WIS, and DEX. If you did that, then you'd have a poor build.

Splashes have to invest HEAVILY to get elite trapping skills--in stat tomes, skill tomes, and sinking build points in the beginning into INT, WIS, and DEX, and let me tell you, a 1 ROG/19 FIG is a much better fighter investing in STR and CON.


I have a sorc EK right now at level 23 who can achieve an 84 search. I didn't spec it for that but I did take search each level. Add an int/insightful int/search/insightful search and poof. I have a better search than some full rogues of the same level. It does cost but not so much. Just add a couple points of intelligence at creation and take search instead of jump.

[krimsonrane]

No not at all. I just know what the rogue is capable of as either a pure build or almost pure build. If you also know that and are able to both play and build a rogue well (Not an easy feat as rogue has one of the higher skill ceilings in the game) then you will also know that saying anything a rogue can do can be done better by another class is pure hyperbolic nonsense. If on the other hand you don't have either the skill or build knowledge to actually get the most from a rogue then your point of view makes sense but is based on a false premise (ie as you can't do it can't be done mentality).

The simple fact is that rogues are exceptionally good at what they do if you know how to both play and build them. They however are not easy to play or build well. Trashing a class because you erroneously think that trapping is the most important part of the rogue toolkit severely undermines your argument. Yes a 2 rog/x anything else build will be able to do traps almost as well as a pure rog. It wont (with a few notable exceptions) be able to dps as well, instakill as well or in some cases survive as well. Those 3 traits are what makes rogues so good and generally the more rogue in the build the better it can do them.

Just for the record I myself am an above average rogue but no where near the best. I do however know a few players that I would put in that category and have seen what they are capable of on their builds compared to what I can achieve on mine. Anyone who thinks that rogues aren't top tier dps really need to look into what the class is actually capable of in those players hands.

Ahhh... I see. You're in your feelings because you think advocating for rogues is trashing them. I'd like to see rogues get a brand new pass for EDs. Regain abilities no other class has, and get back their versatility.
I'm not trashing, I'm advocating.

But hey. If you think rogues are in a perfect position and nothing is needed to put them on level ground, enjoy.

[Steeme]

But there are places in the game where there's a secret door with a very high DC that has to be found or you're stuck. Castle Ravenloft has one such door. True Seeing doesn't work on it. So it's either a rogue, rogue splash, or a DDO store purchase to move forward with the quest.

Are you talking about the secret door leading to the brazier room? You don't need to go that way, you can get to the brazier room from the 3rd floor. The basement way is just a short-cut.

There is nothing in Castle Ravenloft that prevents you from completing the quest on any of the variations of cards without being able to hit a search DC. The fireplace door can be spotted with true seeing, I believe after talking with Esmerelda.

[krimsonrane]

The lowest level a character can be to cast a 9th level spell is Character Level 15. The success of which will be determined by their UMD or Caster Level Check.

I'm not sure a lich can be turned by even a pure cleric or a maximized turning build - I believe lich is generally a Boss level creature.

I think you are approaching this from the wrong perspective. Have you considered why some builds can be very successful in doing trapping/opening skills with only 1 or 2 levels?

Consider that for Heroic leveling the most skill points you can put into any skill is 23. When you have a class that has access to a skill and leveling a class that does not, it costs 2 points to level. This allows these builds to also achieve 23 at level 20. Of course, they are trading off as those are 2 points per level and that could mean between 2 and 8 points per level dedicated to just keeping those skills maxed.

Next, trapping skills in the epic and legendary levels are looking at 100+ in those skills in order to be successful. That means even a pure rogue/artificer has to look towards other places.

This means Ability Modifiers (INT/DEX), Buffs and Gear -> none of these are limited to a single class.

But even that being said, in real life how many times have you run into someone that has been labeled an expert (lots of education dedicated) on a subject and someone that just dabbles only to find the dabbler (hobby) is better at it, because he has knowledge in other areas :)

Again. I don't need to consider in a thought experiment what I've done many times in reality. I know what it takes to make a splash rogue work at any level difficulty. I've done it. Successfully.
Sometimes not so successfully but it worked for me. When 20 was cap I had a fighter 14, rogue 6, that dual wielded bastard swords and could do any trap at the time. Just me experimenting.
Once I realized pure was unnecessary, I tried various combinations in order to achieve the play style I'd enjoyed previously. High stealth, high damage, decent defenses, agro control in either direction, some general CC, and quick kills. I tried stick builds, mechs and assassins. I've farmed magical trap parts till my eyes bled. As it turned out, what you said at the end was true. I was better off dabbling.

[krimsonrane]

Are you talking about the secret door leading to the brazier room? You don't need to go that way, you can get to the brazier room from the 3rd floor. The basement way is just a short-cut.

There is nothing in Castle Ravenloft that prevents you from completing the quest on any of the variations of cards without being able to hit a search DC. The fireplace door can be spotted with true seeing, I believe after talking with Esmerelda.

Yea. That door has never been an issue for any of my toons. I always add a couple int points, and invest in search. Then I carry swap items. Rarely is my search skill below mid 70s at cap.
There is one door and one trap I know of where the DC is very high and hard to achieve without big investments or relatively pure rogues. The door in the under dark series where you have to open it to free the prisoners by picking or breaking. The trap is in a cabal for one.

[Enoach]

Again. I don't need to consider in a thought experiment what I've done many times in reality. I know what it takes to make a splash rogue work at any level difficulty. I've done it. Successfully.
Sometimes not so successfully but it worked for me. When 20 was cap I had a fighter 14, rogue 6, that dual wielded bastard swords and could do any trap at the time. Just me experimenting.
Once I realized pure was unnecessary, I tried various combinations in order to achieve the play style I'd enjoyed previously. High stealth, high damage, decent defenses, agro control in either direction, some general CC, and quick kills. I tried stick builds, mechs and assassins. I've farmed magical trap parts till my eyes bled. As it turned out, what you said at the end was true. I was better off dabbling.

Then I'm at a loss for what you are trying to get out of this conversation, you have a class that at its core is actually intended to be a jack-of-trades, master of many. Its unique abilities come from the fact that it "Has Skills", no other class in the game has the same Skill options as Class skills or potential to be as skillful. This makes it a class that can do quite a bit - with the addition of crafting Mines and Grenades.

What ability should a Pure Rogue have that is not able to be replicated by any other class? Or with a splash?
Should this be something tied to a capstone? Or a Level 20 Feat only available to rogues?

Does DDO need more abilities that are dependent on Rogue levels - like the assassinate DC?
Does DDO need more quest requirements that would require a rogue to accomplish? (Personally, I think that would be a bad idea to have any quest require Ability X to complete)

Maybe it is time to take the effort to outline exactly what you think rogue needs so that it stands out vs continuing creating a circular conversation.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I've read this thread and cannot for the life of me understand the why of it - the OP just trolling or am I missing some massive unspoken thing?

What a completely pointless conversation.

[Weemadarthur]

Ahhh... I see. You're in your feelings because you think advocating for rogues is trashing them. I'd like to see rogues get a brand new pass for EDs. Regain abilities no other class has, and get back their versatility.
I'm not trashing, I'm advocating.

But hey. If you think rogues are in a perfect position and nothing is needed to put them on level ground, enjoy.

If at any point in your OP you had advocated for rogues, said anything about rogue issues or even actually said anything about rogues in general then I would concede your point. The fact is though at no point have you given any real point to your thread except to say a 2 level rogue splash can do traps aswell as a pure rogue. Maybe if you had stated that you have X issues with rogues or would like to see Y rogue abilities improved you may have got a better response. Instead you just basically said rogues suck as anything past a 2 level splash is pointless. That I'm afraid is not the case so sorry for hurting your feelings as that wasn't my intention but if you really don't think there's any point to taking more than 2 levels of rogue you just don't understand what a good rogue is capable of in todays game.

Just for clarity yes I do agree there are places where rogues could be improved (shadow dancer I'm looking at you 1st and foremost) but that does not mean they are in a bad place. If any changes are to be made they should also be made very very carefully as it would be incredibly easy to make rogues stupidly OP with just a few badly implemented minor tweaks.

[Chilldude]

One level of rogue allows you to open any door and disarm any trap in the game.

As others have said, that's not entirely accurate because you do have to invest in it quite heavily with only 1 level of rouge. However, I suppose it does fit with your argument that no matter what you do with 1 level of cleric you're never going to do anything good with, a level of wiz gets you a few decent buffs but nothing worth taking a level of wiz for, a level of fighter gives you lots of proficiencies and an extra feat so it's totally worth taking on many builds, but overall you're correct, 1 level of just about anything else doesn't get you virtually complete access to anything.

2 levels of rogue or monk gets you evasion, a rather powerful ability. 3-4 levels of many classes gets you an array of very powerful abilities. 6 levels gets you access to top tier abilities. So 1 level of rogue coupled with the need to have high int, invest heavily in skills, and wear top notch trapping gear that you'll probably have to constantly swap out is completely in line with the rest of the game.

Traps in DDO are poorly implemented anyway. Traps should be random like reapers. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any super deadly traps, but in general, traps should do small but repetitive damage, which in turn would make having a good reflex save more important on non evasion characters. Rather than doing damage in the range of 90-150% of the average character's health, if traps did damage in the 10% range repeatedly, then players would have to time get out of the trap, especially if they had good reflex saves. If the traps could go off randomly, anywhere, at anytime, then having a trapper to deal with them would be a real asset to nearly any party.

As it stands, the traps are all set in stone. Most people know where they all are and how to avoid them. Therefore having someone capable of dealing the traps is just a luxury for an XP bonus that is easily forgone in nearly all parties.

---edit---

I forgot that the entire intention of this reply was to make your missing point for you.

It doesn't seem right that someone can tack on 1 level of rogue to their build to entirely replace a trapper. You can't tack on 1 level of cleric to entirely replace a healer. If I were to make a character to fill the healer role in a party then I'd have to take mostly, if not all, levels in a healing class. So 15 years ago, when I'd make a trapper, I'd focus on making them a great trapper, but then time and again some barbarian, wizard, bard, or just about any class really would come along with 1 level of rogue (in reality it was usually 2) and get all the traps. Didn't seem right.

That's just what it seemed like on the surface though. Once you realize the role of trapper is superfluous then you realize it's good that it can be fulfilled with as little as 1 level of rogue. Healers are superfluous as well, and have actually become some of the strongest damage dealers in the game because they were kind of pointless otherwise.

The actual game has very little to do with what it seems like on the surface.