Enhancement Trees - Eldrich Knight for all caster classes

[Drfirewater79]

Hello Everyone,

This is my bid for the Eldrich Knight to become available to all caster classes.

I think the addition of this to Wizard and Sorcs provides a lot of much needed survivability to classes which receive very low hps. But there are still a few other classes like alchemist which have extremely low hps considering the current end game for those who do not run a lot of high level reapers. Surviving even LH raids can be extremely hard for people when the non-boss characters can often do 1-2k damage and with the current stat re-balancing this has left some classes at a major disadvantage if you do not multiclass or make major handicaps such as min maxing CON instead of main stat which then drastically affect your ability to perform the classes role and DCs which again makes end game more effective and enjoyable.

i believe that making eldrich knight OR a similar version as a universal tree would provide more PRR/MRR and HPs to classes who are willing to spend enhancement points to increase survivability and provide a lot of additional options to all classes for both stat improvement and build options while also addressing some of the concerns of weaker classes.

The idea of Eldrich Knight bard and Alchemist specifically, i believe, would increase the value of those classes and the fun factor for people who feel the need to work toward completionism targets.

[LurkingVeteran]

Hello Everyone,

This is my bid for the Eldrich Knight to become available to all caster classes.

I think the addition of this to Wizard and Sorcs provides a lot of much needed survivability to classes which receive very low hps. But there are still a few other classes like alchemist which have extremely low hps considering the current end game for those who do not run a lot of high level reapers. Surviving even LH raids can be extremely hard for people when the non-boss characters can often do 1-2k damage and with the current stat re-balancing this has left some classes at a major disadvantage if you do not multiclass or make major handicaps such as min maxing CON instead of main stat which then drastically affect your ability to perform the classes role and DCs which again makes end game more effective and enjoyable.

i believe that making eldrich knight OR a similar version as a universal tree would provide more PRR/MRR and HPs to classes who are willing to spend enhancement points to increase survivability and provide a lot of additional options to all classes for both stat improvement and build options while also addressing some of the concerns of weaker classes.

The idea of Eldrich Knight bard and Alchemist specifically, i believe, would increase the value of those classes and the fun factor for people who feel the need to work toward completionism targets.
EK is a good tree and versatility is good, but I'm not sure EK would make a huge difference in end-game survivability. It has what, 85hp, 10 PRR, 10 MRR and possibility of wearing Medium Armor without ASF? If you are seeing a big difference end-game it's from evasion vs. armor/shield builds, and/or you are comparing against EK-PMs who have another chunk of HP and PRR/MRR as well (two good largely defensive trees).

Alchemists have Evasion as a class feature, it's just that it's not what it used to be any more end-game, with so much non-reflex damage. You could probably play one with armor + shield (at least as an elf), it's just more difficult to get ASF to zero.

[droid327]

I dont think EK for every caster class is really what you want...for one, it'd homogenize casters even more. For two, it sounds like you're mainly interested in the survivability bonuses, not the offensive capabilities.

I think what you're really asking for - and what would be a better thing to ask for, IMO - is a universal defensive/survivability tree, that includes some of the things EK offers, like Armor prof (and ASF), HP, damage reduction abilities, etc.

That'd be a good thing for every class to have - lets tanky classes better specialize in tanking, lets squish classes spend AP to balance themselves out a bit. We have plenty of ways to add offense to any class via universal trees, but very little in the way of universal defense

[Baahb3]

We have plenty of ways to add offense to any class via universal trees, but very little in the way of universal defense

Ha! A defensive universal tree, never going to happen. We don't even have a defensive legendary feat yet.

[slarden]

I would love to see an arcane warrior universal tree.

The only caster class lacking a tree with martial dps support is warlock. That can be accomplished by adding a martial-focused pact when they get around to a warlock pass.

[archest]

Rogue acrobat tree should be accessible as a universal tree for staffs.
Cleric's archon has a favored weapon of a staff but no access to staff enhancements.

[LurkingVeteran]

I would love to see an arcane warrior universal tree.

The only caster class lacking a tree with martial dps support is warlock. That can be accomplished by adding a martial-focused pact when they get around to a warlock pass.

While Warlock doesn't have a dedicated melee tree, you have some melee support in ES and SE (survivability, aura dmg is complementary to melee, dmg and debuff procs on melee). You need 21pt vistani or use long swords to get a passable crits profile though. You could probably build a melee Warlock that wasn't terrible.

[slarden]

While Warlock doesn't have a dedicated melee tree, you have some melee support in ES and SE (survivability, aura dmg is complementary to melee, dmg and debuff procs on melee). You need 21pt vistani or use long swords to get a passable crits profile though. You could probably build a melee Warlock that wasn't terrible.

I don't see any compelling reason to build a warlock martial build. I am sure some people do, but math doesn't support it being good. "Not terrible" could mean many things but it's certainly not an endorsement of warlock supporting melee.

[Artos_Fabril]

I don't see any compelling reason to build a warlock martial build. I am sure some people do, but math doesn't support it being good. "Not terrible" could mean many things but it's certainly not an endorsement of warlock supporting melee.
Yeah. I made a bladeforged warlock trying to really get the most out of ES swinging around a greatsword, and it (kinda) worked, but really wasn't good enough to justify the necessary gear tetris, especially after the Stat crunch taking down available doublestrike for that build.

[LurkingVeteran]

The compelling reason would be that ES melee warlock is going to be pretty survivable and gets free AoEs. Probably pretty smooth heroic leveller. As with all hybrids, the build tetris won't allow you to get both good melee damage (+dmg, mp, ds) and spell damage (sp, crit/crit mul) in epics.

Maybe it would be decent with the Shiradi mantles? Melee damage is always going to be subpar without the crit profile, but that is more like a -20% difference all kitted out for melee. Maybe -30-35% total if you consider lack of +dmg/ds/mp in the tree. The problem is that your nukes will be further behind at that point, but hey you get both + survivability, hard to balance that. Probably better to get 21pt+ Vistani, focus on melee damage and use the aura more as a bonus damage with a slow/blind. Melee damage should be OK.

I agree that you can do pretty much the same without melee since Warlock has infinite sustain anyway. At least with Vistani, I'm guessing that melee DPS in epics should be higher, otherwise Warlock is too strong atm. But then that requires Vistani, so I guess I agree that there is no compelling reason to go melee in epics without relying on a universal tree.

[Bjond]

This is my bid for the Eldrich Knight to become available to all caster classes
An EK-like Universal tree would certainly be interesting, but which casters need it? Wizard and Sorcerer already have it. Alchemist has it's own defensive methods. Divines have the War tree. So, uh, Warlock? It's got ES.

Heh. For increased build-freedom, what I'd like most is a way for ANY pure class to have trapping and evasion without having to multi-class. That's a fair step away from 3.5e, though and it's mostly due to my own personal build constraint of never building a character without trapping or using light-armor without evasion. I'm not sure such a change would be good for the game or not; it's a purely selfish desire of wanting a pure bard with trapping & evasion.

[LurkingVeteran]

It's not a terrible idea to have a universal tree with more defensive melee elements, because frankly EK is not that defensive. The Sorc population on HC is pretty dismal if you compare to normal servers. Of course, one might also argue that the real problem is that alternative casters (FvS, maybe animal clerics) are just too tanky in heroics atm.

That said, I would rather see a THF tree. There are 2-3 (if you count Falconry) ranged trees, a twf/swf dagger tree, a Cha-to-damage/DC-caster tree and an int-to-damage tree. A THF tree seems obvious.

[Xgya]

On the other hand: why EK and not Warpriest?
Warpriest for every caster!

/s

Really though, all casters have access to a tree that helps them kill things in close range.

Enlightened Spirit is the least melee one, but still does the "wade into melee taking things out" in its own right.
Mastermaker works for a melee Arti pretty decently.
Bard has not one but TWO melee trees.
So does Druid.
Vile Chemist can be used in melee just as well as any softer melee character can.

[droid327]

That said, I would rather see a THF tree. There are 2-3 (if you count Falconry) ranged trees, a twf/swf dagger tree, a Cha-to-damage/DC-caster tree and an int-to-damage tree. A THF tree seems obvious.

I've often called for a "Brawler" or "Thug" universal melee tree that was Unarmed, Clubs and Greatclubs. I think a plenary THF tree would be too OP given the ubiquity and innate power of THF right now...but constraining it to Greatclubs would both boost an underutilized weapon type (just as VKF and Inqui and HW did) and give a THF universal option for non-melee classes, without just making it a necessary handcuff for FB or KotC.


it's a purely selfish desire of wanting a pure bard with trapping & evasion.

Pure bard, 11 Shadowdancer, and buy a Frogo

[Bjond]

buy a Frogo
Can't trap where it's needed: not in raids means not a trapper, no NIH means not a trapper, can't run ahead means not a trapper. SD Evasion is L26+ only. I do FAR prefer epics, but again, insufficient.

The rest a bigger TL/DR segue from OP's topic -- just musings about trapping and DDO purchases.

I am curious about Frogo's skill. SSG has such a long history of fairly useless hires that I laughed when I saw a L30 "trapping" hire. I couldn't imagine it has enough for HE trapping much less LE. If you have one and want to check, Creeping Death has the highest trap DCs I know. IIRC, you can blow up boxes there with ~104.

For trapping, a hire will never be even remotely interesting to me. If SSG wants to entice a store buy from me with trapping, it would take something like "All your characters gain Trapfinding and skill-cap of 23 for trapping skills"; eg. if that was a passive for 3x Rogue PLs, I'd go get 'em on every character. Same if it was a store-bought feat. I'd not buy it or use it if it took a feat slot or didn't increase the skill caps to 23; I'd just continue to multiclass rogue or artificer.

(not really holding my breath for changes like that :))