Creative Circle Drawing

[Bluenoser]

Can someone at SSG please take a look at how damaging circles from things like Vengeance Reapers are being rendered on-screen? We've been running high reapers lately and I've repeatedly watched myself and teammates run several feet outside a circle only to die from it anyway. Now, you might be thinking, "oh, you didn't really make it out, that was just lag fooling you" but the soulstones were several feet outside the circle, which means the server knew we'd made it out and killed us anyway.

Anyone else seeing this lately?

[Hawkwier]

Can someone at SSG please take a look at how damaging circles from things like Vengeance Reapers are being rendered on-screen? We've been running high reapers lately and I've repeatedly watched myself and teammates run several feet outside a circle only to die from it anyway. Now, you might be thinking, "oh, you didn't really make it out, that was just lag fooling you" but the soulstones were several feet outside the circle, which means the server knew we'd made it out and killed us anyway.

Anyone else seeing this lately?

Yes, but it's not new.

[Wahnsinnig]

This happens because the circle is not a circle. It is a square.

The explanation devs gave for this is that for the server it requires a lot more work, ie processor cycles to calculate a circle area for an effect than a square area. So even if we see a circle on our screens the server calculates a square to reduce server load. If you are in the middle of a side that you can not see, then you can be closer to centre but safe. If you are on the corner you will take damage outside the circle you see.

[MaeveTuohy]

This happens because the circle is not a circle. It is a square.

The explanation devs gave for this is that for the server it requires a lot more work, ie processor cycles to calculate a circle area for an effect than a square area. So even if we see a circle on our screens the server calculates a square to reduce server load. If you are in the middle of a side that you can not see, then you can be closer to centre but safe. If you are on the corner you will take damage outside the circle you see.

Thank you for this.

It probably explains some of the deaths I've had when I saw I was clearly outside the circle.

The issue of circles not even appearing however remains to be resolved.

[Oxarhamar]

This happens because the circle is not a circle. It is a square.

The explanation devs gave for this is that for the server it requires a lot more work, ie processor cycles to calculate a circle area for an effect than a square area. So even if we see a circle on our screens the server calculates a square to reduce server load. If you are in the middle of a side that you can not see, then you can be closer to centre but safe. If you are on the corner you will take damage outside the circle you see.

If it's a square just display a square

It's weird because blade barriers appear to behave like a circle



It's a corny mechanic that games use anyway to telegraph attacks very few games get it right


One that does get it right is Kitaria Fables if you are in the red when a monster attack you get hit if you are not you don't & if you are in the red you only need to hit one button to evade out the way its clean, simple, & it works like it should

Outside of the square issue for me one of the biggest problems with the circle in DDO is seeing the things because I play ranged so staring at my feet doesn't mesh well with how ranged play more like a fps

[MaeveTuohy]

If it's a square just display a square


You are hands down my favourite poster on these forums.

[LightBear]

Animations started (like jumping) will finish, effects taking place while starting the jump or mid air above the circle will have its effect on any character above it.
But will wait for the animations started of characters it is effecting to finish.

So, you'll die outside the circle simply because you can't drop dead mid jump.

You prob neither can jump over such a circle to make it alive on the other side if it explodes when you're mid air over it.
(I'm butchering English here, I know.)

[MaeveTuohy]

Animations started (like jumping) will finish, effects taking place while starting the jump or mid air above the circle will have its effect on any character above it.
But will wait for the animations started of characters it is effecting to finish.

So, you'll die outside the circle simply because you can't drop dead mid jump.

You prob neither can jump over such a circle to make it alive on the other side if it explodes when you're mid air over it.
(I'm butchering English here, I know.)

Your English is fine, better than some native speakers here. And thank you for persisting in another language for all our benefit.

Yes, these effects you note match my in game experience and helps me to understand why I sometimes die outside the circle I was jumping to get out of.

[Oxarhamar]

You are hands down my favourite poster on these forums.

Um thanks I try to get the idea across short and sweet

I do think display a square would be a solid improvement will it get implemented thou who knows if the devs will even read this thread in particular & even if it did would they listen

[Hawkwier]

If this is true, then as Ox says, if it's really a square then draw that.

Presumably it's a square of side equal to the diameter of the visible circle it bounds. That being the case then the true safe radius (to assure keeping out of the square's corner areas outside the visible circle) is the visible circle radius x root2 which is c.42% bigger. If they can't draw the square then maybe extending the visible circle radius by that amount would be helpful - it's a bigger radius to get the hell out of, but at least we'd know we're absolutely safe.

And our chances of survival within that larger circle are not zero either. They fall from 100% safe at the larger circle radius to zero at the smaller visible circle radius.

Right now, it seems we need to get another 40% or more away (??!!??) from the visible circle's centre if we want to be certain of survival!

Is this shenanigans also true of other aoe "circles" too then?

[Mindos]

Then put the damage square inside the circle, instead of putting the circle inside the damage square. Effect area too small now? Make the whole thing 10 percent bigger. Now you got same size damage area, but people don't get hit even when in the outer edges of the circle.

[salmag]

Then put the damage square inside the circle, instead of putting the circle inside the damage square. Effect area too small now? Make the whole thing 10 percent bigger. Now you got same size damage area, but people don't get hit even when in the outer edges of the circle.

+1

100% agree with this.

[slarden]

Vengeance reapers are problematic for many reasons. In addition to the circle not being representative of the actual danger area you have:

- Circles in the air being difficult to see
- Circles blending in with other effects and being missed entirely
- Horrid wilting scaling much higher than other enemy spells.
- Occasional timing issues where someone dies a few seconds after circle went off far outside the circle - presumably a lag thing

Vengeance reapers feel alot more like griefing vs. challenge since most deaths are not due to player mistakes, but R10s are also not so difficult it makes sense to ask for anything to be easier.

Just as one example, in Slavers Part III R10 the party zoned into the end fight all dead from horrid wilting including the tank except for the immune PM who died shortly after since he had 100% aggro. We regrouped and completed, but only after one party was frustrated and raged quit over it - which prevented someone else from joining.

We decided to have the tank go into the end fight using epic moment and party members follow shortly and that worked better.

Still, zoning in dead without using a tank epic moment isn't my idea of a challenge. I wouldn't exactly consider it an emergency problem since R10 isn't that hard. I just think if the devs ever decide to dive into reaper they should rework vengeance reapers a bit.

[Arkat]

Then put the damage square inside the circle, instead of putting the circle inside the damage square. Effect area too small now? Make the whole thing 10 percent bigger. Now you got same size damage area, but people don't get hit even when in the outer edges of the circle.

Yes

+1

[TedSandyman]

The easy solution to this is to draw the circle around the four corners of the square.

If you do it this way, instead of being outside the circle and still dying and getting angry, you could possibly be inside the circle and live and I bet no one would complain about that.

[Oxarhamar]

The easy solution to this is to draw the circle around the four corners of the square.

If you do it this way, instead of being outside the circle and still dying and getting angry, you could possibly be inside the circle and live and I bet no one would complain about that.

I still think display a square solves the issue much better than a bigger circle that you may be safe inside

[Arkat]

The easy solution to this is to draw the circle around the four corners of the square.

If you do it this way, instead of being outside the circle and still dying and getting angry, you could possibly be inside the circle and live and I bet no one would complain about that.

That is exactly what Mindos suggested above.

[Hawkwier]

Then put the damage square inside the circle, instead of putting the circle inside the damage square. Effect area too small now? Make the whole thing 10 percent bigger. Now you got same size damage area, but people don't get hit even when in the outer edges of the circle.

I agree. It's not too small if you keep the square area of effect the same and display the circle around it instead of inside it, touching the corners rather than the sides. I think the circle needs to be made 42% larger in terms of display radius though. Plus you'll find not everyone dies inside the circle if you do that. But I think that would be preferable than what we have now.

[Saekee]

Then put the damage square inside the circle, instead of putting the circle inside the damage square. Effect area too small now? Make the whole thing 10 percent bigger. Now you got same size damage area, but people don't get hit even when in the outer edges of the circle.
/signed

this way more nervous sweat from players and then the 'phew' when they mysteriously survive

[slarden]

The easy solution to this is to draw the circle around the four corners of the square.

If you do it this way, instead of being outside the circle and still dying and getting angry, you could possibly be inside the circle and live and I bet no one would complain about that.

If there is some technology limiting the shape to circles or the devs prefer circles this is the best answer and also exactly what mindos suggested.

I think there is a lag component and visual conflict issues with other effects that are just as problematic as the shape. And the circle issue isn't limited to vengeance reapers - it's a problem anywhere in the game where there is a circle with a bad effect.

If they do a reaper pass and make high Rs more challenging I think they should just get rid of vengeance reapers and replace it with a new type of challenging reaper that doesn't come with all the problems vengeance reapers come with. Dooms, despair and lesser reapers provide challenge without any griefing mechanics. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with a replacement.

I don't keep track, but just based on observation less than 1 in 5 vengeance reaper deaths is due to the player not getting out of the circle when they see it.

[AlcoArgo]

This happens because the circle is not a circle. It is a square.

Are you suggesting that SSG has actually figured out how to square a circle? That's impossible! :D

[Oliphant]

I vote no on visible squares, or at least don't turn currently visible circles into visible squares.

reason: aesthetics

++computational efficiencies, yes
++making visible circle bigger for better signaling, yes

[Xgya]

I remember how shocked I was when I discovered Cleave hit boxes are rectangular.

Everything's a square.

Pixels all the way up!

[Oxarhamar]

I vote no on visible squares, or at least don't turn currently visible circles into visible squares.

reason: aesthetics

++computational efficiencies, yes
++making visible circle bigger for better signaling, yes

Idk I think the telegraph should show the exact hitbox

aesthetics are already ruined by the circle IMO

[Chacka_DDO]

This happens because the circle is not a circle. It is a square.

The explanation devs gave for this is that for the server it requires a lot more work, ie processor cycles to calculate a circle area for an effect than a square area. So even if we see a circle on our screens the server calculates a square to reduce server load. If you are in the middle of a side that you can not see, then you can be closer to centre but safe. If you are on the corner you will take damage outside the circle you see.

That's a good explanation for what we see but if the developers cannot make the area of effect geometrical the same as the displayed effect it should never be a disadvantage for the players and it should be like this:

https://i.imgur.com/O2PSjcw.png

[slarden]

That's a good explanation for what we see but if the developers cannot make the area of effect geometrical the same as the displayed effect it should never be a disadvantage for the players and it should be like this:

https://i.imgur.com/O2PSjcw.png

This makes more sense than the circle inside the square. Again, I have heard the same thing that rendering a square is more difficult which I will just accept at face value unless a developer says otherwise. If they must show a circle show a circle that includes the full range of danger vs the current circle-in-square approach.

[Chilldude]

This happens because the circle is not a circle. It is a square.

The explanation devs gave for this is that for the server it requires a lot more work, ie processor cycles to calculate a circle area for an effect than a square area. So even if we see a circle on our screens the server calculates a square to reduce server load. If you are in the middle of a side that you can not see, then you can be closer to centre but safe. If you are on the corner you will take damage outside the circle you see.

OK, I can understand and accept they have limitations they must work within, but if you are going to use a circle to denote a square area affected by a damaging ability then the circle should completely encapsulate the square. If they square encapsulates the circle a player can assume they are safe when in fact they are not, whereas if the circle encapsulates the square being outside the circle guarantees being out of harm's way.

---edit---

Oh, I should have kept reading the thread. Many people are way ahead of me on this, some with helpful visual aids for the devs.

[Oliphant]

That's a good explanation for what we see but if the developers cannot make the area of effect geometrical the same as the displayed effect it should never be a disadvantage for the players and it should be like this:

https://i.imgur.com/O2PSjcw.png

Draw another circle inside this square and you basically have a topology proof with a few scribbles left to write up.

[Hawkwier]

Yes, and some interesting ratios arise...

The area of the actual square killzone compared to the "inside" visible circle is 1.27, so you're still 27% unsafe when just outside the current circle.

The truly safe "outer" circle is just over double in area of the "inner" circle displayed area, being 42% longer in radius.

The actual square killzone area comprises 63% of the "outer" circle area, so some 37% of the "outer" circle lies outside the actual square killzone.

[greenbutter]

do not try to bend the circle thats impossible instead only try to realize the truth ....... there is no circle

[Mindos]

Yes, and some interesting ratios arise...

Now we just need to spin the kill square!

[Hawkwier]

Now we just need to spin the kill square!

Or spare the pin quill! ????

[Oliphant]

We close to a major breakthrough that could bring a MASSIVE influx of new players: DDO Minecraft!!!

[Firepants]

Squaring a circle isn't as easy as one would think...

[Bluenoser]

The "it's a square, not a circle" has become great fun for the crew I run with, with "squircle!" and "squarcle!" trending.

Seriously though, if that's the actual issue, for goodness's sake fix it as others have suggested here. The current approach feels like we're being trolled.

Thanks all.

[Arkat]

do not try to bend the circle thats impossible instead only try to realize the truth ....... there is no circle

or spoon