What's the future of the Great Xbow?

[Searious]

Yes for the longest time, light and heavy Xbows were no more than vendor trash, and the Great Xbow ART ruled the (xbow) land. But then Sharn Inquisitor changed the meta and now great xbows have fallen to the wayside. But for how long? What will be the next big thing?

I propose that Artificers (and only artificers) be allowed to dual wield great xbows under the same code/mechanic that an inquisitor dual wields. Perhaps through a class feat? Maybe a slight modification to the battle engineer tree? Maybe as part of the capstone so that only a pure 20 ART can take advantage of the fun.

PS - when you apply the dual wield xbow, stop 'shrinking' the xbow down to a smaller fitted hand size. Let the item retain its look like under a single wield.

[droid327]

Yes for the longest time, light and heavy Xbows were no more than vendor trash, and the Great Xbow ART ruled the (xbow) land. But then Sharn Inquisitor changed the meta and now great xbows have fallen to the wayside. But for how long? What will be the next big thing?

I propose that Artificers (and only artificers) be allowed to dual wield great xbows under the same code/mechanic that an inquisitor dual wields. Perhaps through a class feat? Maybe a slight modification to the battle engineer tree? Maybe as part of the capstone so that only a pure 20 ART can take advantage of the fun.

A, this would be critically overpowered since GXBs are far more powerful than L/HXBs, especially with their expanded crit.

B, GXBs are not actually in a bad place where they need the buff. Mechanic splits still put out plenty of damage. The advantage of Inqui isnt the numerical power of DXB over GXB, but the flexibility of not being tied into either pure Rogue or a specific Rogue/Arti(/Fighter) split.

C, Arti isnt the place to put this idea anyway, since their signature weapon is the RXB. They're neither GXB specialists (Mech) or DXB specialists (Inqui). Arti does need help, but they need it through large-scale improvements to RXB mechanics...first and foremost, remove the Doubleshot penalty

[Enderoc]

I tried the turning my mechanic into an inquisitor... it doesn't even compare. That tree is made for artificers and ranged builds without a lot of Sneak Attack.
If you see videos trying to sell the tree to rogues.. it's false advertisement.

[Jerevth]

People can't wrap their head around how a character reloads dual wielded xbows.
Imagine the outcry at the sheer inanity of a character trying to wield a pair of GXBs, each 3-4 wide.
I just push the "I believe" button when considering a gnome with a single GXB; the poor bugger should fall on his oversized nose when trying to aim...

But I do want to know when my Horc/PDK can swing a pair of greatswords/gaxes/mauls? (D&D Manga edition...)
Those puny minotaurs can do it...

To be fair, though, the bolt from a GXB is significantly larger- there should be enchantment/mechanic type bonuses you can add to the bolts at higher levels of investment.

[Chacka_DDO]

My estimation would be that great xbow on a mechanic is not much weaker than Inquisitive but only if you have endless fusillade from multiclassing with an artificer basically the only thing I would like to see is a way for a pure rogue to get access to that ability.

One may be crazy idea is that you could have Rune Arm Use (https://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm_Use) as a trainable special ability and if you take it you get access to the Battle Engineer enhancement tree.
Or simpler, something like Endless Fusilade is also in the rogue Mechanic enhancement.

[fatherpirate]

looks kinda cool as a wall decoration.

[Jerevth]

My estimation would be that great xbow on a mechanic is not much weaker than Inquisitive but only if you have endless fusillade from multiclassing with an artificer basically the only thing I would like to see is a way for a pure rogue to get access to that ability.

One may be crazy idea is that you could have Rune Arm Use (https://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm_Use) as a trainable special ability and if you take it you get access to the Battle Engineer enhancement tree.
Or simpler, something like Endless Fusilade is also in the rogue Mechanic enhancement.

I was going to suggest an option to fire another bolt but we just went through the whole "calculation causes lag" update.
EF seems reasonable, but with a GXB, either bypass the damage reduction of IPS passively or for 10/20/30 seconds grant a bonus to double shot (For the damage inflicted) in the new style? Something that sets GXB apart from the others pew-pews?

[droid327]

My estimation would be that great xbow on a mechanic is not much weaker than Inquisitive but only if you have endless fusillade from multiclassing with an artificer basically the only thing I would like to see is a way for a pure rogue to get access to that ability.

One may be crazy idea is that you could have Rune Arm Use (https://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm_Use) as a trainable special ability and if you take it you get access to the Battle Engineer enhancement tree.
Or simpler, something like Endless Fusilade is also in the rogue Mechanic enhancement.

Best bet is probably to see if it can be included in the "Artificer" Destiny tree whenever that gets released. No way Rune Arm becomes a general feat, because then you'd scale the blast damage based on your character level instead of your Artificer level.

[cdbd3rd]

I just wanna Rune-Arm on each hand, is that so bad...?

:p

[Epicsoul]

"I believe" button

It's a D&D video game. One slams that button long before we ever get to duel wielding great xbows. It should not be implemented, but not because it's unrealistic lolol.

[Oxarhamar]

I was going to suggest an option to fire another bolt but we just went through the whole "calculation causes lag" update.
EF seems reasonable, but with a GXB, either bypass the damage reduction of IPS passively or for 10/20/30 seconds grant a bonus to double shot (For the damage inflicted) in the new style? Something that sets GXB apart from the others pew-pews?

If GXBneeds help that's fine but IPS should just be unnerfed

The problem is with things overperforming and instead of nerfing those they nerfed IPS the overperforming things are still there

[Chacka_DDO]

Best bet is probably to see if it can be included in the "Artificer" Destiny tree whenever that gets released. No way Rune Arm becomes a general feat, because then you'd scale the blast damage based on your character level instead of your Artificer level.

Actually, I think a better DDO would have almost no scaling and works only with fixed numbers and if you level up you see no number inflation and the biggest difference from gaining levels would be to get new interesting abilities to use on your character, but I know this idea is maybe not very popular.

But IF you have level scaling and number inflation with higher levels (monster levels) then you should consequently have to scale with the character level and not with the class level.
For that reason, the artificer rune arm damage should scale with the character level.

And I talked not about a general feat for everyone at this point my suggestion was only to give only rogues that feat (not for free, a rogue would have to use a feat slot) because I think it fits thematically.

But in general, I think it would be also a way that the feats you get with level 1,3,6,9, etc should provide maybe much more freedom than they do now, this means you can take the feats from every class as long as you meet the requirements who make thematic sense, like you can take lay on hands from paladin as a feat but only if you are lawful good or if you take another feat to chose your deity (because a god has to give you that power).
For the Rune Arm Feat you could for example need to have a min int score if you want to take that.

But once again, the Maximum Caster Level restriction and the scaling of abilities with the class level makes logical not so much sense in my opinion in a multiclass game where you have epic levels (and this year even legendary levels).
I don't say it is absurd that you have scaling with the class level, I think I completely understand that idea but I think scaling with the character level instead of the class level as a general rule makes simply and clearly more sense!

[Annex]

Please pardon a small aside for I have a question related to this topic.

On my home server, I have a Rogue Mechanic at level 25. She was genuinely fun to level and pretty strong from 1 to 12.

On Hardcore, I have a 8 Rogue / 2 Barbarian Inquisitive with most points in Inquisitive, some in Mechanic, and a handful elsewhere.

I remember the Mechanic leveling with much greater ease than the Inquisitive. In addition, I find the animation and sound feedback for Inquisitive very jarring. Yet, I regularly read that Inquisitive beats Mechanic. Is that an end game thing?

[Oxarhamar]

Please pardon a small aside for I have a question related to this topic.

On my home server, I have a Rogue Mechanic at level 25. She was genuinely fun to level and pretty strong from 1 to 12.

On Hardcore, I have a 8 Rogue / 2 Barbarian Inquisitive with most points in Inquisitive, some in Mechanic, and a handful elsewhere.

I remember the Mechanic leveling with much greater ease than the Inquisitive. In addition, I find the animation and sound feedback for Inquisitive very jarring. Yet, I regularly read that Inquisitive beats Mechanic. Is that an end game thing?

I read the same about Inquisitive vs. REPEATER Artifcer

I tried both and have abandoned Inquisitive

Can't say for GXB that I tried on an Arti and did not like surely Mechanic is different

[Weemadarthur]

I read the same about Inquisitive vs. REPEATER Artifcer

I tried both and have abandoned Inquisitive

Can't say for GXB that I tried on an Arti and did not like surely Mechanic is different

There is an ongoing argument with GXB vs Inquis among some of my friends and the general consensus at this point is an 18 mech/ 2 arty with GXB has better sustained dps but an inquis is far better for burst damage. Without the level 18 mech core though the dps tends to head back in the direction of the inquis builds.

The other thing to take into account is level ranges. From 1-6 RXB is in a class of its own. From 7-17 Inquis dual shooting is king of the hill. At 18 I would say GXB takes 1st place but its short lived as at 20 inquis starts catching up again very fast due to increased Shiradi procs.

[archest]

would be nice to be able to use this sooner.
Improved Precise Shot
Prerequisite: Dexterity 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Base attack bonus +11

not till level 14 for a cleric / rogue at .75 each until BAB reaches +11.

[dredre9987]

would be nice to be able to use this sooner.
Improved Precise Shot
Prerequisite: Dexterity 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Base attack bonus +11

not till level 14 for a cleric / rogue at .75 each until BAB reaches +11.


Nope that is perfectly fine.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Improved_Precise_Shot

[Oxarhamar]

There is an ongoing argument with GXB vs Inquis among some of my friends and the general consensus at this point is an 18 mech/ 2 arty with GXB has better sustained dps but an inquis is far better for burst damage. Without the level 18 mech core though the dps tends to head back in the direction of the inquis builds.

The other thing to take into account is level ranges. From 1-6 RXB is in a class of its own. From 7-17 Inquis dual shooting is king of the hill. At 18 I would say GXB takes 1st place but its short lived as at 20 inquis starts catching up again very fast due to increased Shiradi procs.

Yeah its definitely different at different levels

in my testing Inquisitive was lacking I don't play Shiradi proc build fishing for randomness is not my idea of fun gameplay I prefer more sustainable DPS

At 30 Inquisitive just felt weak using the Raid weapon from PN

[elvesunited]

What I would like is an artificer/mechanic feat, battle engineer/mechanic enhancement, or spell where the artificer/mechanic could turn a

repeater into a normal x-bow of the same size
-- or ---
Turn a normal x-bow into a repeater of the same size

And that would include great x-bows.

[droid327]

Yeah its definitely different at different levels

in my testing Inquisitive was lacking I don't play Shiradi proc build fishing for randomness is not my idea of fun gameplay I prefer more sustainable DPS

At 30 Inquisitive just felt weak using the Raid weapon from PN

It's not fishing if your ROF is high enough

Try it again with Shiradi and see if that's why it felt lacking for you

[LightBear]

I propose the great x bow to be mounted to your arti dog's back and have it shoot at half the rate of your whatever your calculated bolt output is.
No matter what you're equipping in your main hand, be it you're dual shooting or bursting off with demirage and the like.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoeHLzjfUGI

[Oxarhamar]

I propose the great x bow to be mounted to your arti dog's back and have it shoot at half the rate of your whatever your calculated bolt output is.
No matter what you're equipping in your main hand, be it you're dual shooting or bursting off with demirage and the like.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoeHLzjfUGI

That does look like the level my dog would behave with a weapon but I like the idea dog would be much more useful that way

[Oxarhamar]

It's not fishing if your ROF is high enough

Try it again with Shiradi and see if that's why it felt lacking for you

Yeah no thanks it is still fishing for procs ROF only makes it proc more nope I enjoy constancy not randomness

If Shiradi procs is where Inquisitive power comes from at 30 then that is exactly why it is lacking for me I don't enjoy Shiradi

I was hoping that after doubleshot/strike was nerfed do to too many procs causing lag that Shiradi would be changed to be less proc based in U51 to my disappointment

It felt lacking because it is lacking if it only works in Shiradi then that exposes problems with both Inquisitive lacking & with EDs being inflexible

Thanks for confirmation of what was already evident

[Jerevth]

It's a D&D video game. One slams that button long before we ever get to duel wielding great xbows. It should not be implemented, but not because it's unrealistic lolol.

True, but there is a point of credulity where some rules should still apply- a gnome wielding a great crossbow as big as he is pushes on that line.
It's hard to define in words, and it may be limited to my own perspective, but for me there needs to be some degree of basic rationality. A mino has the mass to support dual wielding great weapons, yes. A gnome comes close to lacking enough mass to extend a GXB in front of himself without falling on his face (Small feet, insufficient counterbalance.)

But, yes, I'm fine with drawing power from the heavens, magical swords cleaving rock, and so forth... I guess I just need an underlying justification for it to make the "I believe button" energize.
I'm aware of the flaws in logic there but I just can't define what makes it acceptable fantasy vs. teenage-level dreams of supremacy. So long as a plausible argument is built, based on the fantasy worlds logic, I can accept it?


I propose the great x bow to be mounted to your arti dog's back and have it shoot at half the rate of your whatever your calculated bolt output is.
No matter what you're equipping in your main hand, be it you're dual shooting or bursting off with demirage and the like.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoeHLzjfUGI

They did it with the spiders in the Soulsplitter quests. Those critters (Prismatic houncds and the ballista spiders) were amazing.

[aGarde]

I really hated the whole "dual wield crossbows" mechanic. That has to be the dumbest thing in DDO. They should have done inquis with a greater ROF vs dual wielding.

I'm currently playing a Great XBow build. I'm using the AotD, and am happy with the DPS. The caveat is that you have to multi-class. 5 Arti, 6 fighter. Arti for EF, and the fighter for the kensai 3rd core. DPS really relies on EF running most of the time.

If you don't multi-class, a rogue mechanic simply can't get decent dps. To me, that's a weakness in the mechanic tree, but, that's also why DDO is a better game than WOW and others. Pure mechanic can have ok dps but never good dps.

[archest]

its not a Great XBow build as much as a rogue mechanic 2 option for a cleric build.
sneak attack and it would be nice to have access to improved precise shot for it but would effect other weapons which would definitely be unbalanced.

[Tilomere]

Ask Carpone to put together a rogue GXBow build for you, he is the ranged dps build expert!

[droid327]

Yeah no thanks it is still fishing for procs ROF only makes it proc more nope I enjoy constancy not randomness

If Shiradi procs is where Inquisitive power comes from at 30 then that is exactly why it is lacking for me I don't enjoy Shiradi

I was hoping that after doubleshot/strike was nerfed do to too many procs causing lag that Shiradi would be changed to be less proc based in U51 to my disappointment

It felt lacking because it is lacking if it only works in Shiradi then that exposes problems with both Inquisitive lacking & with EDs being inflexible

Thanks for confirmation of what was already evident

Do you run a zero crit build? Do you not use weapons or cast spells that use damage die?

Everything is random to some extent in ddo. But it averages out over the course of a quest. That's not inconstancy, that's just how math works.

Also show me one build that isn't significantly weaker at endgame when you're not using an optimal ED load out for it

You don't feel like you're only doing something when you get procs, that's the difference. You feel like you're always doing something, and sometimes doing even more, like when you crit an attack. If you tried it without prejudice you would probably see it's not "fishy".

Also, if you want consistent efficacy, the epic moment with NHB is among the best there is

[Oxarhamar]

Do you run a zero crit build? Do you not use weapons or cast spells that use damage die?

Everything is random to some extent in ddo. But it averages out over the course of a quest. That's not inconstancy, that's just how math works.

Also show me one build that isn't significantly weaker at endgame when you're not using an optimal ED load out for it

You don't feel like you're only doing something when you get procs, that's the difference. You feel like you're always doing something, and sometimes doing even more, like when you crit an attack. If you tried it without prejudice you would probably see it's not "fishy".

Also, if you want consistent efficacy, the epic moment with NHB is among the best there is

Asking those questions is insulting you can believe that

You are taking it so far out of context Shiradi procs are the randomness I am referring to not dice rolls & critical hits

If you think that Shiradi is the optimal ED for Inquisitive then you understand why I find it lacking because I don't enjoy Shiradi

Shiradi is absolutely fishing for procs

You may think NHB + Shiradi epic moment is the best there is and that's Inquisitives roll to be a viable build then no thanks you can keep it

Again thanks for confirmation of what was already known

If Inquisitive was something that worked outside of Shiradi then it would be much better but since you confirmed that it doesn't then you probably should understand why I don't enjoy it.

Shiridi is not the best for every ranged ED btw YW

Experience =/= prejudice TYVM

[Bjond]

Shiradi is absolutely fishing for procs
Shiradi mantle is pointless for all but casters and (maybe) repeaters. Unfortunately, none of the other mantles really offer any dps boost to ranged at all, which is why my ranged usually run the EA mantle.

Shiradi's strike and moment are the things to leverage from that tree, though with the right build, Shadow Dancer's Strike can beat Hunt's End. My HCL INQ actually uses Crusader's Mantle (for BAB, cheap DR break, & defensives). So, there are alternatives.

However, I do agree with the comments about "suspension of disbelief" for both dual and repeating crossbows. The entire concept is completely ludicrous. There were historical "repeating xbows", but it's a misnomer. They did very little damage and just reloaded faster. They weren't the Winchester Repeating Rifle of their day or the absurd machine pistols of DDO. Every time I use either one, I think "the creator of this concept was an absolute idiot that had no concern at all for immersion." Then my meta-gamer takes over and builds whatever works best -- creativity can always rig appropriate sophistry afterwards.

'Course, there's also "thrower" builds that DPS like a fire hose. Now there's some immersive reality. Gotta imagine they all have forearms like Popeye's.

[Oxarhamar]

Shiradi mantle is pointless for all but casters and (maybe) repeaters. Unfortunately, none of the other mantles really offer any dps boost to ranged at all, which is why my ranged usually run the EA mantle.

Shiradi's strike and moment are the things to leverage from that tree, though with the right build, Shadow Dancer's Strike can beat Hunt's End. My HCL INQ actually uses Crusader's Mantle (for BAB, cheap DR break, & defensives). So, there are alternatives.

However, I do agree with the comments about "suspension of disbelief" for both dual and repeating crossbows. The entire concept is completely ludicrous. There were historical "repeating xbows", but it's a misnomer. They did very little damage and just reloaded faster. They weren't the Winchester Repeating Rifle of their day or the absurd machine pistols of DDO. Every time I use either one, I think "the creator of this concept was an absolute idiot that had no concern at all for immersion." Then my meta-gamer takes over and builds whatever works best -- creativity can always rig appropriate sophistry afterwards.

'Course, there's also "thrower" builds that DPS like a fire hose. Now there's some immersive reality. Gotta imagine they all have forearms like Popeye's.

Shiradi falls short for repeaters as well there are better options
Hunts end for example only hits on the first bolt useless for Repeater builds

I feel like Shiridi is like the obvious easy button but it's definitely not the best thing for ranged I guess that having the plat reset cost keeps players from truely testing different setups instead of just taking the easy button then proclaiming its greatness

[Jerevth]

Shiradi falls short for repeaters as well there are better options
Hunts end for example only hits on the first bolt useless for Repeater builds

I feel like Shiridi is like the obvious easy button but it's definitely not the best thing for ranged I guess that having the plat reset cost keeps players from truely testing different setups instead of just taking the easy button then proclaiming its greatness

They (SSG) ought to code it so there is a cooldown on incurring further cost to respec: You pay to respec the ED spheres (all of them, one time), make your initial changes, and for the next 72 hours you may tweak as you see fit without having to pay. After that period the Payment CD is rest again. Single tree resets won't need a Cooldown, all the info is right there already.

But I still think they should drop the respec cost outright. It's slowed the free playtesting rigor down significantly and there are, I'm certain, bugs still lurking that aren't uncovered because of that.

[Annex]

There is an ongoing argument with GXB vs Inquis among some of my friends and the general consensus at this point is an 18 mech/ 2 arty with GXB has better sustained dps but an inquis is far better for burst damage. Without the level 18 mech core though the dps tends to head back in the direction of the inquis builds.

The other thing to take into account is level ranges. From 1-6 RXB is in a class of its own. From 7-17 Inquis dual shooting is king of the hill. At 18 I would say GXB takes 1st place but its short lived as at 20 inquis starts catching up again very fast due to increased Shiradi procs.

Thanks Weemadarthur. This was the information I was looking for.

[Enderoc]

IPS is only nerfed for inquisitnerds without any fort bypass to speak of lulz
Send a sneaky Great X-bow bolt through a line of enemies...switch to repeater to end anything that doesn't die. Ba-da-boom.
Okay, you think you look cool double fisting it...I get that.
But I stand by my guns that the (IT) is really a tree for multiclasses with arty splashes or melee that wants to add ranged options, possibly non DC casters. (Another way of saying low DC casters)
Rangers and Mechanics still are boss...no way around it.
In fact the only thing this tree has to do to make it appealing to Rogues is make the dual wielding bs a toggle.
Otherwise it's garbage for any real Rogues out there. The only situation where I could see where it could be a benefit is kiting aggro and your bluff is not good enough to get your sneak attack to proc.
I am not going to lose all my sneak attack from mechanic to play cowboy... that's silly. I want to make things dead not an action packed YouTube video.
"Get to the portal now!"

[Bjond]

They (SSG) ought to code it so there is a cooldown on incurring further cost to respec
Why? SSG manifestly does not test the game. We do. You want a game mechanism to hinder and slow testing new builds? It is quite literally contrary to everyone's best interest -- both SSG & players. There should be no cost at all to test a tree for bugs.


IPS is only nerfed for inquisitnerds without any fort bypass to speak of lulz
I've found that I use IPS so little that I'm no longer even including it in my builds unless I just happen to have nothing better to take. It takes longer to line things up and make it pay that it does to gun them down 1x1. And, if you're doing group play, the ranged role is to quickly take out the outliers, not blast the pack -- more 1x1 killing.

About the only way I could see IPS as being useful is if it could be used at the same time as PS and then primarily only for solo play. What would actually be useful is ricochet-style "AE" (chain-lightning) or outright exploding shots (ball AE), though that would be rather hilarious when combined with something like NHB.

[Question2005]

Part of the issue for GXB is that rogues and the mechanic tree are supposed to be the GXB option, but they dont synergize.

Rogues want more attacks to get more sneak attacks, GXB does not do that. This is a huge design flaw. GXB is a "less attacks, more and bigger crits" style. If anything, artificers (which are repeater focused) and rogues (GXB focused) should be swapped, so that rogues use repeaters which generate more sneak attacks while artificers get GXBs that fire slower but hit harder.

The mechanic tree is also outdated. 2 AP for +1 to hit/damage is obsolete nowadays, the standard is 2 AP for at least +1 to hit/+2 to damage. The inquis tree is proof of this. The mechanic tree also suffers from the curse of "lots of gimmicky abilities that sound cool on paper but are extremely weak". Things like traps and adding bleed stacks are useless unless you are fooling around on normal mode. Stuff like wand mastery is pointless as well (lets be real, nobody uses wands to DPS in this game).

All those skill boosts are also useless for any veteran with tomes and past lives, which is at least 95% of the community at this point, as you are expected to be able to meet DCs without them. Nobody wants to put points into skill enhancements because it means less AP going into stuff to help them kill things (which is like, 95% of a quest ever since quest design shifted to hack n slash dungeon crawls).

It also has almost no ranged power whatsoever.

The worse part is that the mechanic tree is essentially half a tree. It has int to damage in the 3rd core, but has no int to hit, forcing you to get it from the harper tree. It should have int to hit in the 2nd core. It doesnt have endless fusilade, forcing you to multiclass to artificer to get it, and fusilade is a must have for crossbows due to the way reload works (attack speed does not affect reload speed). Every class should have solid options for going full 20 without multiclassing, rogue crossbow does not have that (unless you play on normal) because you are forced to multiclass to get the things that you are lacking.

Just do a quick comparison with the inquis tree, its obvious how lacking the mechanic (and battle engineer) trees are. Its great for leveling because you get consistent boosts to damage as you progress through the tree. Mechanic and battle engineer do not do that.

But to actually make GXB an attractive choice, SSG needs to understand why inquis and repeaters are so attractive now. They generate way more attacks that result in more sneak attack dice, law dice or shiradi procs. GXB just doesnt do that, and GXB have anything that gives it massive ranged power the way bows do.

My suggestions would be :

-Make artificers GXB focused, make rogues repeater focused because repeaters synergize better with sneak attacks

-Revamp the battle engineer and mechanic trees so that multiclassing isnt needed and both classes can get int to hit/damage without needing to dip into harper. Make the gimmicky abilities actually useful (if this is not possible, just replace them with stuff that isnt gimmicky). Make them offer consistent improvements to damage as you progress through the tree.

-Make the new battle engineer tree a hard hitting tree to fit what GXBs are supposed to do. Give it lots of ranged power, make it apply big debuffs, something along those lines.

[Jerevth]

Why? SSG manifestly does not test the game. We do. You want a game mechanism to hinder and slow testing new builds? It is quite literally contrary to everyone's best interest -- both SSG & players. There should be no cost at all to test a tree for bugs.


I've found that I use IPS so little that I'm no longer even including it in my builds unless I just happen to have nothing better to take. It takes longer to line things up and make it pay that it does to gun them down 1x1. And, if you're doing group play, the ranged role is to quickly take out the outliers, not blast the pack -- more 1x1 killing.

About the only way I could see IPS as being useful is if it could be used at the same time as PS and then primarily only for solo play. What would actually be useful is ricochet-style "AE" (chain-lightning) or outright exploding shots (ball AE), though that would be rather hilarious when combined with something like NHB.

I want the opposite- the cool down prevents further plat costs for a certain period. While in that 72 hour window you can respec all you want for free.

[Oxarhamar]

Part of the issue for GXB is that rogues and the mechanic tree are supposed to be the GXB option, but they dont synergize.

Rogues want more attacks to get more sneak attacks, GXB does not do that. This is a huge design flaw. GXB is a "less attacks, more and bigger crits" style. If anything, artificers (which are repeater focused) and rogues (GXB focused) should be swapped, so that rogues use repeaters which generate more sneak attacks while artificers get GXBs that fire slower but hit harder.

The mechanic tree is also outdated. 2 AP for +1 to hit/damage is obsolete nowadays, the standard is 2 AP for at least +1 to hit/+2 to damage. The inquis tree is proof of this. The mechanic tree also suffers from the curse of "lots of gimmicky abilities that sound cool on paper but are extremely weak". Things like traps and adding bleed stacks are useless unless you are fooling around on normal mode. Stuff like wand mastery is pointless as well (lets be real, nobody uses wands to DPS in this game).

All those skill boosts are also useless for any veteran with tomes and past lives, which is at least 95% of the community at this point, as you are expected to be able to meet DCs without them. Nobody wants to put points into skill enhancements because it means less AP going into stuff to help them kill things (which is like, 95% of a quest ever since quest design shifted to hack n slash dungeon crawls).

It also has almost no ranged power whatsoever.

The worse part is that the mechanic tree is essentially half a tree. It has int to damage in the 3rd core, but has no int to hit, forcing you to get it from the harper tree. It should have int to hit in the 2nd core. It doesnt have endless fusilade, forcing you to multiclass to artificer to get it, and fusilade is a must have for crossbows due to the way reload works (attack speed does not affect reload speed). Every class should have solid options for going full 20 without multiclassing, rogue crossbow does not have that (unless you play on normal) because you are forced to multiclass to get the things that you are lacking.

Just do a quick comparison with the inquis tree, its obvious how lacking the mechanic (and battle engineer) trees are. Its great for leveling because you get consistent boosts to damage as you progress through the tree. Mechanic and battle engineer do not do that.

But to actually make GXB an attractive choice, SSG needs to understand why inquis and repeaters are so attractive now. They generate way more attacks that result in more sneak attack dice, law dice or shiradi procs. GXB just doesnt do that, and GXB have anything that gives it massive ranged power the way bows do.

My suggestions would be :

-Make artificers GXB focused, make rogues repeater focused because repeaters synergize better with sneak attacks

-Revamp the battle engineer and mechanic trees so that multiclassing isnt needed and both classes can get int to hit/damage without needing to dip into harper. Make the gimmicky abilities actually useful (if this is not possible, just replace them with stuff that isnt gimmicky). Make them offer consistent improvements to damage as you progress through the tree.

-Make the new battle engineer tree a hard hitting tree to fit what GXBs are supposed to do. Give it lots of ranged power, make it apply big debuffs, something along those lines.

Ove been saying that about Repeaters since they nerfed double shot that Repeaters should have increased damage but now they have given Artifcer extra clip which is a feat tax to do what unnerf double shot would do kind of ridiculous

Extra clip is nice it does bring Repeaters back a bit from the double shot nerf one big problem with the double shot penalty for Repeaters is that Artifcer just doesn't get as much double shot anyways and when it does its too costly paying ap or dp for doubleshot that only gives a 1/3 return is painful

Not just INT to hit and damage Harper but all the Ranged power

I don't think that Repeaters & GXB should switch between Rogue and Artifcer but it would be good if the trees had multiselectors to choose from a weapon style then have access to complimentary benefits

You are right about slower weapons should just do more damage to bring it on line with faster weapons

[archest]

You are right about slower weapons should just do more damage to bring it on line with faster weapons

In case of the great crossbow : if improved precise shot was more available it would not speed up the shot but effectively shoot and damage multiple monsters with 1 shot.
sooner than level 14.

this would change all access if the feat itself were to be changed but not if the tree (mechanics) offered the feat as a proficiency if the other prerequisites were met.
+19 dex , point blank shot, and precise shot were chosen by the player.
its the BAB of 11 that delays access to all ranged users ( which would remain all outside of the rogue mechanics tree.)

The reason for this desire is a lot of players take 2 rogue the mechanics tree offers the feat for the great crossbow proficiency with the 1st core.
additionally a stack of bleed 33% 66% 100%
and 2 Sharpshooter: +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. +1 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting.

adding early access to the improved precise shot feat or in this case granting it early in the tree like the great cross bow proficiency.

strengthen the damage by mob control similar to chain lightning or the warlock chain blaster.
though the bow would not be chained like them.( just the early access to the shot through multiple inline monsters damages.

[john0]

I just came back to ddo after a few months and decided to revisit my gxb build and at cap it seems to be pretty strong, r10 bosses still go down pretty fast.

I went the 10 rogue 6 fighter 4 art fusillade build

I go in dreadnaught as main and shadow dancer for sneak die and Shiradi for pin

For my fusillade bursts I go

Fighter past life (30 BaB) > LD Action Hero > swap weapon and use uncannny dodge + through the mists set > reaper boost > fusillade = decent dps

I’m still gearing up but I got most of the important stuff like volley and the wall watch set

[Oxarhamar]

In case of the great crossbow : if improved precise shot was more available it would not speed up the shot but effectively shoot and damage multiple monsters with 1 shot.
sooner than level 14.

this would change all access if the feat itself were to be changed but not if the tree (mechanics) offered the feat as a proficiency if the other prerequisites were met.
+19 dex , point blank shot, and precise shot were chosen by the player.
its the BAB of 11 that delays access to all ranged users ( which would remain all outside of the rogue mechanics tree.)

The reason for this desire is a lot of players take 2 rogue the mechanics tree offers the feat for the great crossbow proficiency with the 1st core.
additionally a stack of bleed 33% 66% 100%
and 2 Sharpshooter: +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. +1 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting.

adding early access to the improved precise shot feat or in this case granting it early in the tree like the great cross bow proficiency.

strengthen the damage by mob control similar to chain lightning or the warlock chain blaster.
though the bow would not be chained like them.( just the early access to the shot through multiple inline monsters damages.

I dont think IPS needs to come earlier but it could use being unerfed for all ranged it wasnt what was overperforming anyways blanket nerfs hurt the builds and stykes tgat are behind already the most and leave the overpergorming things overperforming

[dredre9987]

The reason for this desire is a lot of players take 2 rogue the mechanics tree offers the feat for the great crossbow proficiency with the 1st core.
additionally a stack of bleed 33% 66% 100%
and 2 Sharpshooter: +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. +1 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting.



No one takes it for the bleed. LOL 2 rogue is mainly taken for evasion. They aren't taking the first core in mechanic for great crossbow as much as improving point blank shot range and improved ranged sneak attack range.

[Bjond]

I dont think IPS needs to come earlier but it could use being unerfed
I wouldn't use IPS more if the damage reduction was removed. The situations where IPS might apply are simply too infrequent to bother using it. It ONLY pays off when it hits at least 2x critters. With the way things lag-leap about, that's unlikely even in a pack. What might convince me is removing the stance-swap delay completely or changing the feat entirely to a ricochet style that essentially ensures multiple hits (eg. chain-lightning style).


They aren't taking the first core in mechanic for great crossbow as much as improving point blank shot range and improved ranged sneak attack range.
LOL, oh yeah. If you see 2 rogue, it's almost certain there's zero AP being put into rogue. AP-wise, you get more out of Harper or Falcon without needing to dilute your main class with excessive rogue levels.

BTW, as to why gxbow isn't seen more? It's not fun to play and it's DPS doesn't compare at all to top ranged builds with more utility. It requires too much investment in a class that is not self-sufficient and can't solo well. The ED changes address that a little bit. So, might see a few more gxbows. However, my guess is those are only trying out an Arbalest drop they got and they'll punt gxbow after seeing how it performs.

[Oxarhamar]

I wouldn't use IPS more if the damage reduction was removed. The situations where IPS might apply are simply too infrequent to bother using it. It ONLY pays off when it hits at least 2x critters. With the way things lag-leap about, that's unlikely even in a pack. What might convince me is removing the stance-swap delay completely or changing the feat entirely to a ricochet style that essentially ensures multiple hits (eg. chain-lightning style).


LOL, oh yeah. If you see 2 rogue, it's almost certain there's zero AP being put into rogue. AP-wise, you get more out of Harper or Falcon without needing to dilute your main class with excessive rogue levels.

BTW, as to why gxbow isn't seen more? It's not fun to play and it's DPS doesn't compare at all to top ranged builds with more utility. It requires too much investment in a class that is not self-sufficient and can't solo well. The ED changes address that a little bit. So, might see a few more gxbows. However, my guess is those are only trying out an Arbalest drop they got and they'll punt gxbow after seeing how it performs.

IDK I use to find IPS prenerf very useful before the nerf I didnt have a hard time getting 2 or manytimes more than 2 in a pack hitting its great for solo or even in a group when I branch off alone to grab an optional off the path I just target whatever is farthest away hitting whatever is in between great for mowing down groups

In TTOE for example on EE solo farming for shrooms back when TTOE was new IPS make it so I could gather up a group & mow them down I have never tried not using IPS in there

I agree swapping is clunky

I agree a richocet style would be great and then it would made more sence with the nerf because it would have a better aoe

[Bjond]

IDK I use to find IPS prenerf very useful
Yeah, me too. I would typically run prenerf IPS 100% of the time on trash, then swap to PS for bosses. Since the nerf, I've gotten more and more used to being able to gun down singles very quickly. The trick now would be convincing me (and others with similar notions) to use IPS again. My HCL char doesn't have IPS, for instance, and I don't miss it one bit.

Feat slots are dear. It better do something essential to win a slot and I don't think even a simple revert to prenerf would cut it now. Heh, or they could "lean in" to current 1x1 play and make IPS a literally improved PS: stacks don't decay on moving. Then rename current IPS to "follow-through" as part of a potentially new ranged feat-line and see if people take it. I'd guess "no" for as-is, but if it was a precursor to a ricochet or explosive stance, folks would be all over it.

[Oxarhamar]

Yeah, me too. I would typically run prenerf IPS 100% of the time on trash, then swap to PS for bosses. Since the nerf, I've gotten more and more used to being able to gun down singles very quickly. The trick now would be convincing me (and others with similar notions) to use IPS again. My HCL char doesn't have IPS, for instance, and I don't miss it one bit.

Feat slots are dear. It better do something essential to win a slot and I don't think even a simple revert to prenerf would cut it now. Heh, or they could "lean in" to current 1x1 play and make IPS a literally improved PS: stacks don't decay on moving. Then rename current IPS to "follow-through" as part of a potentially new ranged feat-line and see if people take it. I'd guess "no" for as-is, but if it was a precursor to a ricochet or explosive stance, folks would be all over it.

You are not wrong

I like the ideas that you have thou I still like prenerf IPS too

[Saekee]

Part of the issue for GXB is that rogues and the mechanic tree are supposed to be the GXB option, but they dont synergize.

Rogues want more attacks to get more sneak attacks, GXB does not do that. This is a huge design flaw. GXB is a "less attacks, more and bigger crits" style. If anything, artificers (which are repeater focused) and rogues (GXB focused) should be swapped, so that rogues use repeaters which generate more sneak attacks while artificers get GXBs that fire slower but hit harder.

The mechanic tree is also outdated. 2 AP for +1 to hit/damage is obsolete nowadays, the standard is 2 AP for at least +1 to hit/+2 to damage. The inquis tree is proof of this. The mechanic tree also suffers from the curse of "lots of gimmicky abilities that sound cool on paper but are extremely weak". Things like traps and adding bleed stacks are useless unless you are fooling around on normal mode. Stuff like wand mastery is pointless as well (lets be real, nobody uses wands to DPS in this game).

All those skill boosts are also useless for any veteran with tomes and past lives, which is at least 95% of the community at this point, as you are expected to be able to meet DCs without them. Nobody wants to put points into skill enhancements because it means less AP going into stuff to help them kill things (which is like, 95% of a quest ever since quest design shifted to hack n slash dungeon crawls).

It also has almost no ranged power whatsoever.

The worse part is that the mechanic tree is essentially half a tree. It has int to damage in the 3rd core, but has no int to hit, forcing you to get it from the harper tree. It should have int to hit in the 2nd core. It doesnt have endless fusilade, forcing you to multiclass to artificer to get it, and fusilade is a must have for crossbows due to the way reload works (attack speed does not affect reload speed). Every class should have solid options for going full 20 without multiclassing, rogue crossbow does not have that (unless you play on normal) because you are forced to multiclass to get the things that you are lacking.

Just do a quick comparison with the inquis tree, its obvious how lacking the mechanic (and battle engineer) trees are. Its great for leveling because you get consistent boosts to damage as you progress through the tree. Mechanic and battle engineer do not do that.

But to actually make GXB an attractive choice, SSG needs to understand why inquis and repeaters are so attractive now. They generate way more attacks that result in more sneak attack dice, law dice or shiradi procs. GXB just doesnt do that, and GXB have anything that gives it massive ranged power the way bows do.

My suggestions would be :

-Make artificers GXB focused, make rogues repeater focused because repeaters synergize better with sneak attacks

-Revamp the battle engineer and mechanic trees so that multiclassing isnt needed and both classes can get int to hit/damage without needing to dip into harper. Make the gimmicky abilities actually useful (if this is not possible, just replace them with stuff that isnt gimmicky). Make them offer consistent improvements to damage as you progress through the tree.

-Make the new battle engineer tree a hard hitting tree to fit what GXBs are supposed to do. Give it lots of ranged power, make it apply big debuffs, something along those lines.
great stuff. Another option would be to increase sneak damage when using Gxbow by some multiplier which would make sense in that you are punching mobs with a monster of a weapon in their weakspots. So like 1.5 idk. BTW this is the same problem for qstaff rogues so they need a similar help.

[archest]

why take 2 rouge for evasion and not take
Sharpshooter: +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. +1 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting.
Twice, if your using a non repeater crossbow weather heavy light or great.
which would give an extra +4 damage +2 to hit and +2 sneak attack die.
then add in the bleed which tics off for a few seconds in additional damage.
add in the multiple monsters wounded with a single shot.

with other options
+ you have search and spot +1 to +3 < this stacks with other trees.
+ you have +2 +4 +6 action boosts to all skills
so more than likely a smart person who needs this to disable traps ( the reason your took 2 rogue in the 1st place) is placing ap points there as well.
( so I disagree it not for evasion only)
In my case the favored weapon is quarterstaff which is still only rogue 2 in the thief-acrobats tree.
for weapon buffs. ( another 7 ap point to max the buffs in that tree for them)

[Question2005]

Most players are veterans with tomes and past lives that let them do traps effortlessly, and they have twink gear to swap to if they need to boost their skills more. They dont need to waste AP on skill boosts.

[dredre9987]

why take 2 rouge for evasion and not take
Sharpshooter: +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. +1 additional damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting.
Twice, if your using a non repeater crossbow weather heavy light or great.
which would give an extra +4 damage +2 to hit and +2 sneak attack die.
then add in the bleed which tics off for a few seconds in additional damage.
add in the multiple monsters wounded with a single shot.

with other options
+ you have search and spot +1 to +3 < this stacks with other trees.
+ you have +2 +4 +6 action boosts to all skills
so more than likely a smart person who needs this to disable traps ( the reason your took 2 rogue in the 1st place) is placing ap points there as well.
( so I disagree it not for evasion only)
In my case the favored weapon is quarterstaff which is still only rogue 2 in the thief-acrobats tree.
for weapon buffs. ( another 7 ap point to max the buffs in that tree for them)

Well because any that are using heavy or light non repeating crossbows are dual shooting. So you are getting +1 to hit per 2 ap. Not a big deal and kind of a waste. The bleed is absolute garbage. 1d6 every 2 seconds for 14 seconds and ONLY with great crossbow. It is a RANGED attack that scales with MELEE power.... I don't know about you but I am not pumping melee power on my ranged characters...Yes it can stack 5 times but any mob that can bleed would be dead before getting 5 stacks anyways.
As for skills that skill boost is never needed ( you can get well over 115 disable search without it at cap ) and you are better off spending to get a haste boost. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the highest trap DC in game only 116? Very easy to get without a skill boost.

As far as anything about Qstaff that has absolutely nothing to do with a Great crossbow discussion....

[archest]

it has to do with the rogue discussion and taking a multiclass rogue 2.
having 2 levels of thief acrobat available for the favored weapon.
sorry most people do not have 20 past life's of disable skills
most are lucky to have 3 past life's.

but you do not use a great cross bow .
I do.


at level 12 with a +12 key lock ring i have 42 disable from my rogue 2 splash far cry from the 119 you profess is available to anyone.
as it stands won't get the improved precise shot until level 15. @.75 BAB per level

[Weemadarthur]

it has to do with the rogue discussion and taking a multiclass rogue 2.
having 2 levels of thief acrobat available for the favored weapon.
sorry most people do not have 20 past life's of disable skills
most are lucky to have 3 past life's.

but you do not use a great cross bow .
I do.


at level 12 with a +12 key lock ring i have 42 disable from my rogue 2 splash far cry from the 119 you profess is available to anyone.
as it stands won't get the improved precise shot until level 15. @.75 BAB per level

The problem here is that you are using a G-Xbow but are not using it effectively. To make a G-Xbow build work requires a lot of investment into making it work. It requires a huge amount of feats, A lot of enhancements and either heavy investment in the mech tree (mainly the level 18 core and T5 enhancements) or a split that synergizes well with the G-Xbow (see the arty splits that use EF).

Players normally take 2 rog levels for evasion. Its the easy to get low hanging fruit. They do not take it to boost G-Xbow damage. With a 2 level splash almost every other ranged option will be better and putting points into the mech tree to boost the poor dps you will be recieving from a G-Xbow will just pull points away from boosting a much better option.

Lastly the 119 available DD skill was clearly stated for at cap play. Although I wouldn't say it was easy to get it is most definitely possible. My last HC rogue with no tomes or PL's and very average gear was able to get into the upper 90's.

[archest]

Taking 2 levels of Rogue just for the great crossbow.
Not
taking 2 levels of rouge from my cleric for trapping yes.
using a great crossbow for the sneak attack yes
adding bleed to it for the extra damage yes.
( note i have already witnessed the bleed finish off a wounded monster)
as well the bleed damage hit shows inv location and that the inv is still alive.
talking 3 ap points for 100% bleed. The bleed effect can stack up to 5 times
4 more for sharpshooter , elf has long bow proficiency but not using it.
the other points in the rogue 2 are for trapping.
as well as the points in elf racial tree.
it is to use as a sneak attack shot with added damage and improved precise shot adds damage to other monsters when the mob try's to attack though a doorway or sneak attack damage inline from afar.
that simple wound enables me to not to have to cast 2 spells but 1 to kill a single monster which conserves spell points.

as well the favored weapon for the cleric is a quarterstaff. so add the acrobats and the war priest and any melee power to that.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/529394-Rogue-Cleric

"It would be nice to have access to Improved Precise Shot earlier than level 15"

[dredre9987]

it has to do with the rogue discussion and taking a multiclass rogue 2.
having 2 levels of thief acrobat available for the favored weapon.
sorry most people do not have 20 past life's of disable skills
most are lucky to have 3 past life's.

but you do not use a great cross bow .
I do.


at level 12 with a +12 key lock ring i have 42 disable from my rogue 2 splash far cry from the 119 you profess is available to anyone.
as it stands won't get the improved precise shot until level 15. @.75 BAB per level

Well then read the post title one more time.

42 at 12 is low. You can get 14 +7 insightful at that level so 9 more than you have. Highest trap DC in a level 12 quest would be 54. But at level 12 you aren't running level 12 quests. For lvl 10 quests on Elite you would need a 43... It is funny that a lvl 1 rog splash characters have no issues either. I can't help it if you leave points off the table. I also said 116 is the highest trap and that is legendary VoD so lvl 32.. And there aren't "20 past life's of disable skills" There are three rogue you can do to give you +3 to all skills. That is the only past life that even affects disable device. Try again. ( For reference it would be lives. )

I have used a Great crossbow so I know what works and what doesn't.

[dredre9987]

Taking 2 levels of Rogue just for the great crossbow.
Not
taking 2 levels of rouge from my cleric for trapping yes.
using a great crossbow for the sneak attack yes
adding bleed to it for the extra damage yes.
( note i have already witnessed the bleed finish off a wounded monster)
as well the bleed damage hit shows inv location and that the inv is still alive.
talking 3 ap points for 100% bleed. The bleed effect can stack up to 5 times
4 more for sharpshooter , elf has long bow proficiency but not using it.
the other points in the rogue 2 are for trapping.
as well as the points in elf racial tree.
it is to use as a sneak attack shot with added damage and improved precise shot adds damage to other monsters when the mob try's to attack though a doorway or sneak attack damage inline from afar.
that simple wound enables me to not to have to cast 2 spells but 1 to kill a single monster which conserves spell points.

as well the favored weapon for the cleric is a quarterstaff. so add the acrobats and the war priest and any melee power to that.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/529394-Rogue-Cleric

"It would be nice to have access to Improved Precise Shot earlier than level 15"


AGAIN the Bleed is a RANGED ATTACK that scales off of MELEE POWER. It is a complete waste of points. If you are playing on normal I'm sure the dmg is fine. Good luck to you. And no Improved precise shot should not have its BAB requirement lowered. It is fine where it is and that's what it is in 3.5 WHICH THIS GAME IS BASED OFF OF. The nerf of its damage on the other hand is an issue.,

[archest]

AGAIN the Bleed is a RANGED ATTACK that scales off of MELEE POWER. It is a complete waste of points. If you are playing on normal I'm sure the dmg is fine. Good luck to you. And no Improved precise shot should not have its BAB requirement lowered. It is fine where it is and that's what it is in 3.5 WHICH THIS GAME IS BASED OFF OF. The nerf of its damage on the other hand is an issue.,

no it shouldn't across the board .

"IT WOULD BE NICE IF IMPROVED PRICE SHOT WERE ACCESSED SOONER"

What is the future of the great cross bow?

You should read the topic.


I guess ill just have to suffer though the next 2 levels poor me.

[dredre9987]

no it shouldn't across the board .

"IT WOULD BE NICE IF IMPROVED PRICE SHOT WERE ACCESSED SOONER"

What is the future of the great cross bow?

You should read the topic.


I guess ill just have to suffer though the next 2 levels poor me.


Yes and then you brought up staves and 2 rog...You need some help buddy. You are the one who created your build. Deal with it. Those are the choices YOU made.

[archest]

Yes and then you brought up staves and 2 rog...You need some help buddy. You are the one who created your build. Deal with it. Those are the choices YOU made.

Nothing wrong with my build.

"IT WOULD BE NICE IF IMPROVED PRICE SHOT WERE ACCESSED SOONER"

read the topic please.

[dredre9987]

Nothing wrong with my build.

"IT WOULD BE NICE IF IMPROVED PRICE SHOT WERE ACCESSED SOONER"

read the topic please.

Then why bring up everything else.

[yfernbottom]

Yeah, me too. I would typically run prenerf IPS 100% of the time on trash, then swap to PS for bosses. Since the nerf, I've gotten more and more used to being able to gun down singles very quickly. The trick now would be convincing me (and others with similar notions) to use IPS again. My HCL char doesn't have IPS, for instance, and I don't miss it one bit.



It's a pretty terrible feat now unless you have a big enough Dex tome that you can hit the prereq w(19 dex) with almost no investment. Especially on hardcore, where putting that much into dex means giving up a ton of either con or whatever your ranged damage stat is. Even on a ranger that gets it for free, most of the time I run with PS. It takes too long to switch over to IPS in those rare situations where you could be hitting three or more mobs at a time.

On top of that, as the ranged, you really should be focused on taking out high priority targets that the melee have a touch time reaching or that a blaster can't just vaporize with a maxed out fireball. What you should not be doing is screwing around trying to get the trash lined up just right so that you are actually benefitting from IPS, especially since moving cuts your DPS drastically by dropping focus stacks.

[archest]

It's a pretty terrible feat now unless you have a big enough Dex tome that you can hit the prereq w(19 dex) with almost no investment. Especially on hardcore, where putting that much into dex means giving up a ton of either con or whatever your ranged damage stat is. Even on a ranger that gets it for free, most of the time I run with PS. It takes too long to switch over to IPS in those rare situations where you could be hitting three or more mobs at a time.

On top of that, as the ranged, you really should be focused on taking out high priority targets that the melee have a touch time reaching or that a blaster can't just vaporize with a maxed out fireball. What you should not be doing is screwing around trying to get the trash lined up just right so that you are actually benefitting from IPS, especially since moving cuts your DPS drastically by dropping focus stacks.

searing light can do a lot of long range damage to targets . spot skill being high enough.
xbow shot and a hit with searing light usually kills what ever shot it.
so hitting with improved would damage other targets enough to reduce the number of other casting attacks on the same target conserving spell points.
particular character is a cleric with 2 rogue levels for trapping.

[archest]

level 15 , rogue and cleric both have a .75 per level BAB 15 x .75 = 11.25 rounding down = 11 so adding insult to injury bab = 10 at level 15.
fuzzy math there. get penalized for multiclassing.
level 13 cleric bab +9 level 2 rogue bab +1
not equal to .75 per level stacked.

[dredre9987]

level 15 , rogue and cleric both have a .75 per level BAB 15 x .75 = 11.25 rounding down = 11 so adding insult to injury bab = 10 at level 15.
fuzzy math there. get penalized for multiclassing.
level 13 cleric bab +9 level 2 rogue bab +1
not equal to .75 per level stacked.

Of course you get penalized for multi classing. You ever play 3.5?

Fractions are dropped (rounded down). To calculate BAB of a multiclass (https://ddowiki.com/page/Multiclass)character, first round down the BAB for each class, then add numbers together. For example, a level 3 character with one level of rogue, one level of bard, and one level of sorcerer has a BAB of 0 (floor(0.5) + floor(0.75) + floor(0.75)). A level 9 character with 1 rogue and 8 barbarian levels has a BAB of 8 (8 + floor(0.75)).

[archest]

I am sure once I get Improved Precise Shot it will Improve the performance of the great cross bow.
*fast reload helps a bit.
I still think IPS should be available sooner for the great crossbow, even more so now it will be level 16 before it's available.
no I played 1.0

[Weemadarthur]

I am sure once I get Improved Precise Shot it will Improve the performance of the great cross bow.
*fast reload helps a bit.
I still think IPS should be available sooner for the great crossbow, even more so now it will be level 16 before it's available.
no I played 1.0

The short answer is no it won't. As you are not specced for great X-bow play you will be doing terrible damage with the x-bow. The problem is as you have used up feats and enhancements to try to boost it you will now also be bad at casting and bad at melee too. As I said in the thread where you were unable to complete normal difficulty quests on your toon by trying to do everything you don't end up good at anything. By using feats/AP for x-bows and staff you are losing casting power so need to spend 3x as much to do half the damage. As it stands you have wasted at least 3 feats on a weapon your build has no affinity for. Every AP point you spend on great X-bow damage is just taking away from either your melee potential or your casting ability. Putting your AP and feats into either of those would have given far far better results.

[archest]

The short answer is no it won't. As you are not specced for great X-bow play you will be doing terrible damage with the x-bow. The problem is as you have used up feats and enhancements to try to boost it you will now also be bad at casting and bad at melee too. As I said in the thread where you were unable to complete normal difficulty quests on your toon by trying to do everything you don't end up good at anything. By using feats/AP for x-bows and staff you are losing casting power so need to spend 3x as much to do half the damage. As it stands you have wasted at least 3 feats on a weapon your build has no affinity for. Every AP point you spend on great X-bow damage is just taking away from either your melee potential or your casting ability. Putting your AP and feats into either of those would have given far far better results.

Not really experiencing the issues you state here at level.

As you are not spec'd for great X-bow play,
you will be doing terrible damage with the x-bow.

damage is nominal for a bow in general and the purpose compliments clerical damage casting.
while I could have chosen to go Arcane archer which would have taken way more ap points as a complimentary weapon to casting and range.
we are talking a boost to an available asset for the character's available class's.
as the main favored weapon is not even the cross bow but a staff. which is boosted in the war priest tree to cap as favored weapon boosts and additionally the acrobat tree as quarterstaff boost.
the idea is to wound for a one shot castor kill.

Great Crossbow
Damage and Type: 2d8 Pierce
Critical threat range 18-20/x2
Bleed 100% Bleed deals 1d6 damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power.
Note: this also gives away the position and health of invisible creatures as the damage tics.
Mechanic core Great Xbow proficiency 1ap [Taken anyway for rogue trapping skills]
Mechanic tier1: +1 to hit +1damage +1damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting. 2ap
Mechanic tier2: +1 to hit +1damage +1 damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting. 2ap
Total = 2d8 + sneak attack 3d6 +2 + additional damage +2
vs
Long Bow : granted racial proficiency
Damage and Type: 1d8 Pierce
Critical threat range 20/x3
Mechanic tier1: +1 to hit +1damage 2ap
Mechanic tier2: +1 to hit +1 damage 2ap
total = 1d8 + 1d6 + 2

both have IPS 80% damage to inline monsters
additionally str isn't great for the character... but is not a tank(58PRR with sanctuary) , its a clerical castor.
casting is fine.

I did this you decide which would you rather have to wound with 1 shot

heavy crossbow would do better than a long bow as well but would also cost a proficiency feat to use.

[Weemadarthur]

Not really experiencing the issues you state here at level.

As you are not spec'd for great X-bow play,
you will be doing terrible damage with the x-bow.

damage is nominal for a bow in general and the purpose compliments clerical damage casting.
while I could have chosen to go Arcane archer which would have taken way more ap points as a complimentary weapon to casting and range.
we are talking a boost to an available asset for the character's available class's.
as the main favored weapon is not even the cross bow but a staff. which is boosted in the war priest tree to cap as favored weapon boosts and additionally the acrobat tree as quarterstaff boost.
the idea is to wound for a one shot castor kill.

Great Crossbow
Damage and Type: 2d8 Pierce
Critical threat range 18-20/x2
Bleed 100% Bleed deals 1d6 damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power.
Note: this also gives away the position and health of invisible creatures as the damage tics.
Mechanic core Great Xbow proficiency 1ap [Taken anyway for rogue trapping skills]
Mechanic tier1: +1 to hit +1damage +1damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting. 2ap
Mechanic tier2: +1 to hit +1damage +1 damage and one Sneak Attack die with all non-repeating crossbows if you are not dual shooting. 2ap
Total = 2d8 + sneak attack 3d6 +2 + additional damage +2
vs
Long Bow : granted racial proficiency
Damage and Type: 1d8 Pierce
Critical threat range 20/x3
Mechanic tier1: +1 to hit +1damage 2ap
Mechanic tier2: +1 to hit +1 damage 2ap
total = 1d8 + 1d6 + 2

both have IPS 80% damage to inline monsters
additionally str isn't great for the character... but is not a tank(58PRR with sanctuary) , its a clerical castor.
casting is fine.

I did this you decide which would you rather have to wound with 1 shot

heavy crossbow would do better than a long bow as well but would also cost a proficiency feat to use.

OK here's what you are overlooking.

Your G-XB is doing on average 54 points of damage per shot (providing successful sneak attack). This is at a cost of having to have 19 base dex, using at least 4 feats, plus spending at least 7 AP in the mech tree.

Forgoing all of the above that same GXB would do 13 damage on average (providing sneak attack).

However you can now put those wasted dex points into your important stats at creation, have at least 4 feats to boost your casting and/or melee skills and you have an extra 4 ap (after taking your rog skill boosts).

With this you could make your build capable of doing 2 things (melee & casting) at least relatively well. Instead of being bad at 3 things you would actually be either very good at 1 and passable at the other or at least average at both.

You claim your casting is good but with the feat cost and the point cost at creation just to add a terrible amount of damage from G-XB's it really won't be. Your Wis will be reduced so less spell points and lower DC's. Your spell power will be considerably lower so you will need to cast more often so use more spell points. In short everything your build could be good at will be suffering to cram in a pointless feature that has absolutely no synergy with your build.

Just to simplify using your own words. The G-XB isn't complimenting your casting its getting in the way of it. The stat and feat cost is actually extremely detrimental to your build.

[archest]

Casting is fine.
The Topic is about the great crossbow not my character.
I am fine with this build as it is.
I have a +5 lessor if I want to change it.
as well the above doesn't add the enhancements of the weapons themselves. which would be equal 3 holy 3 fire ghost bane, endless night or snowpeaks in either probably for this character to help in mob control at close range.

the question was if you had to choose which would you choose to use for that 1 shot before casting?
or would you choose to be left behind at a shrine in r3?

[dredre9987]

Casting is fine.
The Topic is about the great crossbow not my character.
I am fine with this build as it is.
I have a +5 lessor if I want to change it.
as well the above doesn't add the enhancements of the weapons themselves.

the question was if you had to choose which would you choose to use for that 1 shot before casting?

And if you just built it as a caster you would be one shotting instead of having to shoot then cast...You really have no understanding of this game do you?

Again with the bleed...IT SCALES OFF OF MELEE POWER...Where are you getting that from?

Also, You are spending 2AP per point of sharpshooter WHICH is a complete waste of AP

[archest]

And if you just built it as a caster you would be one shotting instead of having to shoot then cast...You really have no understanding of this game do you?

Again with the bleed...IT SCALES OFF OF MELEE POWER...Where are you getting that from?

Also, You are spending 2AP per point of sharpshooter WHICH is a complete waste of AP

Same place I'm getting ranged power from.
eventually i will have spell power to a level which may if not limited to level without scaling be 1 shot 1 kill.

[aGarde]

I'm currently playing a G-xbow build at cap and I think the DPS is rather good. I run in Shiradi and in theory +225% damage from Hunts End now, but I don't know if that's working.

For IPS if they changed it to work more like SunBolt, where the bolt just kept traveling in a straight line, that would probably be better (imo). SunBolt you only have to target the closest mob and the bolt blasts everything in that line, even the mobs behind your target. If it did that, the -20% damage would be ok.

[dredre9987]

Same place I'm getting ranged power from.

So you are trying to boost melee power, ranger power, and spell power all on the same character?

[archest]

So you are trying to boost melee power, ranger power, and spell power all on the same character?

no .
I haven't an interest in ranged power in so much as any is given inadvertently.
melee power would be helpful but I have low strength ability base 8 I think the score is 17 gonna do what i can.
paralyzing 17 in a level 7 staff, doesn't last in higher CR
runs along the line of a FvS build. enchantment light and sonic Elf.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/529394-Rogue-Cleric

some data I'm a few levels beyond this.

[dredre9987]

no .
I haven't an interest in ranged power in so much as any is given inadvertently.
melee power would be helpful but I have low strength ability base 8 I think the score is 17?

So then those abilities are doing absolutely nothing for you past normal.


SMH

Y'all have fun with this one, I'm done.

[archest]

So then those abilities are doing absolutely nothing for you past normal.


SMH

Y'all have fun with this one, I'm done.

They give me a round 100 hp of damage per shot with Bavarians great crossbow it has Ghostbane as the red augment.
against the sands knolls CR 13

[Weemadarthur]

They give me a round 100 hp of damage per shot with Bavarians great crossbow it has Ghostbane as the red augment.
against the sands knolls CR 13

OK to put a little perspective on this for you.

G-XB = 4d8 damage + 3d6 sneak attack + 4 damage from enhancements (if in PBS range). Cost 4 or 5 feats and 8 AP (PBS,PS,IPS,Rapid reload & possibly Rapid shot).

Longbow = 2d8 damage + 11 dex (19 base, 8 item, 3 insight, 1 quality & 1 profane = total 32 for +11 bonus) + 1d6 sneak (if in PBS range). Cost 1 feat (PBS).

With G-XB :-Searing light SLA 15d6 + 109 spell power (94 item, +15 insightful) = 15d6x109%. cost 2 spell points

With bow :- Searing light SLA 15d6 + 109 spell power (94 item + 15 insightful) + empower (+75 spell power) + Maximise (150 spell power) = 15d6 x 334%. Cost 2 spell points & 2 feats.

Net result longbow is still a bad option but still far far better than the G-XB. Without rapid shot the attack speed will be roughly equal on both bow and G-XB.

So end result your G-XB is costing you 2/3 of your casting damage for a tiny tiny tiny boost in ranged damage which is almost irrelevant.

[archest]

OK to put a little perspective on this for you.

G-XB = 4d8 damage + 3d6 sneak attack + 4 damage from enhancements (if in PBS range). Cost 4 or 5 feats and 8 AP (PBS,PS,IPS,Rapid reload & possibly Rapid shot).

Longbow = 2d8 damage + 11 dex (19 base, 8 item, 3 insight, 1 quality & 1 profane = total 32 for +11 bonus) + 1d6 sneak (if in PBS range). Cost 1 feat (PBS).

With G-XB :-Searing light SLA 15d6 + 109 spell power (94 item, +15 insightful) = 15d6x109%. cost 2 spell points

With bow :- Searing light SLA 15d6 + 109 spell power (94 item + 15 insightful) + empower (+75 spell power) + Maximise (150 spell power) = 15d6 x 334%. Cost 2 spell points & 2 feats.

Net result longbow is still a bad option but still far far better than the G-XB. Without rapid shot the attack speed will be roughly equal on both bow and G-XB.

So end result your G-XB is costing you 2/3 of your casting damage for a tiny tiny tiny boost in ranged damage which is almost irrelevant.

I would rather not sit at a shrine and be left behind because I ran out of a way to attack. in another perspective.

[Bjond]

I would rather not sit at a shrine and be left behind because I ran out of a way to attack.
Efficiency and staying power is why I far prefer melee and ranged over casters. So, I can identify with that sentiment. But, I have found (on my caster) that if you're primarily grouping, there's almost no chance of running out of SP before you reach another shrine. That's really only a problem for solo'ing.

[archest]

Efficiency and staying power is why I far prefer melee and ranged over casters. So, I can identify with that sentiment. But, I have found (on my caster) that if you're primarily grouping, there's almost no chance of running out of SP before you reach another shrine. That's really only a problem for solo'ing.

and if your grouping and want to shrine and no-one else needs to shrine your left behind to play catch up the rest of the quest. that means running into stuff that hasn't been killed by the party and has been left behind or ran away from leaving for you to solo now a group attack instead of solo instance. anyway i'm off topic of what the future is for the great cross bow apparently its very very bleak from the comments here about how much of a waste of feats and ap points it is to use one.

[Tilomere]

So you are trying to boost melee power, ranger power, and spell power all on the same character?

Doesn't everyone? ;)

[Mindos]

For IPS if they changed it to work more like SunBolt, where the bolt just kept traveling in a straight line, that would probably be better (imo). SunBolt you only have to target the closest mob and the bolt blasts everything in that line, even the mobs behind your target. If it did that, the -20% damage would be ok.

This is how IPS operates I think?

[Weemadarthur]

I would rather not sit at a shrine and be left behind because I ran out of a way to attack. in another perspective.

Why would you be left at a shrine using a longbow instead of a G-XB?

You asked the question which was the better option of the 2 and I gave all the data to show that damage wise you would lose very little from using the bow (as you would gain dex to damage that the G-XB doesn't get) and could free up 3 - 4 feats to triple your casting spell power. You have stated you are going to stick with your build no matter what so I just tried to give a little advice on how you could improve your build by roughly 200% with just a few feat swaps. It would still play the same way except casting would be much better . So sorry for answering the question you asked with the full data rather than just being ignorant and going "use a bow its better" without any explanation as to why.

As for sitting at a shrine even on a full caster this would not happen. You will have searing light and holy smite as SLA's for 2 and 6 spell points respectively (as these are SLA's they get free use of meta magics). Magical trainings echos of power will keep you regenerating up to 12 spell points when you run out. Searing light will be castable as soon as it comes off timer (every 4 seconds). If you wanted a bit more firepower you could then also take Sun domain and gain a 2nd searing light, sun beam and sun burst all as SLA's (so can be fully meta'd at no cost). Thats a lot of exceedingly cheap casting that can do a truck load of damage. You could literally spam through those through most quests without ever having to shrine.

[Weemadarthur]

This is how IPS operates I think?

To answer this sort of. The problem is if you target the 1st mob in a group the shot wont always pass through to those behind. If you have a mob at the back targeted though it will go through everything between you and it. The targeting can be a bit temperamental sometimes so it wont always work like it should.

[archest]

your changing the god the character worships to get the sla's.
and the tree the character is building on.
you got all kinds of quality profanes and insight bonus i guess i have to change all my equipment too to get those.
better start farming for thos as well as more ingredients for crafting what i cant farm and add ponts to the bank so i can buy the augments i need which arnt sold in GH or from trading mysterious rems .


G-XB = 4d8 damage + 3d6 sneak attack (PBS,PS,IPS) + extra damage to other monsters

3 feats for the damage and enhancement of IPS.
Rapid shot no I dont need to spend a feat for the bolt to hit the target faster.
possibly Rapid reload if I think I cant find another feat that would improve the character better to exchange it for probably search for trapping since keen sense is -4


Longbow = 2d8 damage + 1d6 sneak (PBS) no damage to other monsters, shots are blocked by party members .


It would be nice to have earlier access to IPS since according to everyone its useless to have anyway.
since it is a great crossbow maybe should have added strength to damage from the power behind the string. which would help in a low strength build such as mine.

[archest]

Improved Precise Shot available @ level 16 BAB =11 another feat not available until level 18


Every character gets one feat at the first level, and then at the 3rd level and at every 3 heroic levels after that (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th for a total of 7 at level 20.

OMG, I guess when exchanging feats with Fred only feats at the level of the original feat ? not sure how it works but IPS is not an option so is not available until level 18.

[Weemadarthur]

Improved Precise Shot available @ level 16 BAB =11 another feat not available until level 18


Every character gets one feat at the first level, and then at the 3rd level and at every 3 heroic levels after that (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th for a total of 7 at level 20.

OMG, I guess when exchanging feats with Fred only feats at the level of the original feat ? not sure how it works but IPS is not an option so is not available until level 18.

Do you actually have the base dex of 19?

[dredre9987]

Improved Precise Shot available @ level 16 BAB =11 another feat not available until level 18


Every character gets one feat at the first level, and then at the 3rd level and at every 3 heroic levels after that (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th for a total of 7 at level 20.

OMG, I guess when exchanging feats with Fred only feats at the level of the original feat ? not sure how it works but IPS is not an option so is not available until level 18.

Yes the BAB and requirements are still needed. No you cannot take a character with that BAB and go back in time and give them the feat when they didn't have that BAB. WAI

[archest]

Do you actually have the base dex of 19?
had 19 at level 2
yes it took until level 16 to reach 11 BAB prerequisite.
last purchased feat I was able to select @15 was fast reload
but wont let me swap out for IPS because bab wasn't at that level at 15.
lost one point from multiclassing .
cleric and rogue both get .75 bab per level.

Prerequisite +11 BAB should be lowered for the future of the Great Crossbow, and just for the great crossbow.
while access is level 11 for any class which gains 1.0 BAB per
level 18 might as well be an epic feat at this point for this character build. and is epic level for Sorcerer and the Wizard

for instance
Lacerating Shots: You have upgraded your Great Crossbow to shoot more forcefully that its construction would normally allow. Your Great Crossbow attacks have a 33%/66%/100% chance of putting a stack of Bleed on enemies. The bleed effect can stack up to 5 times. and adds +1 to BAB when @100% bleed

how would you add +1 bab only when using a great crossbow without effecting other weapons until the nominal +11 was reached.
cost is 3 ap points in bleed ,could be ok for +1 for all use of ips because of the ap cost in bleed.
I mean the intent for using great crossbow is there if you put ap in bleed.
if not and you only want the +1 bab then you've spent 3 ap points to get that.
result is you would in this situation be able to select ips at level 15.
is also restricted to the Mechanics tree which offers all rogue and rouge multiclass this option depending on the class's BAB per level with rogue .75.


another note is this the only place in heroic's that offers any buffs enhancements for specifically the great crossbow? haven't played monk or some other classes non access to some.

Progression
The BAB progression for players is based on their class (for creatures, on their HD), and follows one of the three following progressions:

+1 BAB per level, the best BAB progression, is reserved for the warrior classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger).
+.75 BAB per level, the second best BAB progression, is used by the Alchemist, Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Monk, Rogue and Warlock.
+.5 BAB per level, the worst BAB progression, is used by the Sorcerer and the Wizard. Epic levels also use this progression.
Fractions are dropped (rounded down). To calculate BAB of a multiclass character, first round down the BAB for each class, then add numbers together. For example, a level 3 character with one level of rogue, one level of bard, and one level of sorcerer has a BAB of 0 (floor(0.5) + floor(0.75) + floor(0.75)). A level 9 character with 1 rogue and 8 barbarian levels has a BAB of 8 (8 + floor(0.75)).

could also make rogue 1.0 bab per level

[dredre9987]

could also make rogue 1.0 bab per level

And that would completely go against 3.5 which the game is based off of.

You are trying to multiclass and crying because you can't have everything.

[archest]

And that would completely go against 3.5 which the game is based off of.

You are trying to multiclass and crying because you can't have everything.

no not at all its my input to the topic's question from my own perspective.
additionally not everything is according to paperback D&D which is the 1st thing that was said to me when I started playing DDO.
I am sure there are exceptions to the rule of 3.5.

[Weemadarthur]

no not at all its my input to the topic's question from my own perspective.
additionally not everything is according to paperback D&D which is the 1st thing that was said to me when I started playing DDO.
I am sure there are exceptions to the rule of 3.5.

The catch is if you had a build that was actually able to utilize the G-XB and was built to maximize its output rather than minimize it that would actually be ridiculously OP for a short time. BY level 12 a good G-XB build is 1 shotting everything. The minus 20% from IPS wouldn't change that so a good G-XB build would become defacto OP. The problem you are having is entirely of your own making so no lets not break the game as your build will be just as bad but those that know how to build would be on a whole new level of OP that would hark back to the original Inquis builds.

[archest]

The catch is if you had a build that was actually able to utilize the G-XB and was built to maximize its output rather than minimize it that would actually be ridiculously OP for a short time. BY level 12 a good G-XB build is 1 shotting everything. The minus 20% from IPS wouldn't change that so a good G-XB build would become defacto OP. The problem you are having is entirely of your own making so no lets not break the game as your build will be just as bad but those that know how to build would be on a whole new level of OP that would hark back to the original Inquis builds.

What's the future of the Great Xbow?

This is not about my build, it is about a Great Cross Bow option for players who have multi-classed rogue.
to wit I am one of them.
its about havening an available option specifically for the great cross bow which is underwhelming. in your opinion (bleed)
because it is not a main weapon doesn't make it non proficient. The 1st tree core hands you the proficiency for it.
as well I am doing fine using it as is (disappointing as everyone says it is)
it would be nice to have earlier access to IPS.
raise the BAB for rogue to 1.0 add a point of BAB to bleed 100%, there are options.
and please tell me how adding a bab point to 100% bleed breaks the game?

[Weemadarthur]

What's the future of the Great Xbow?

no one who has 2 rogue can build your level 12 great crossbow except (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger).

That's because a 2 rog splash is a bad choice for G-XB (a few specialized builds can be made but they are generally better off with inquis). Pure rog (ending up 18 rog/2 arti) is the best choice for sustainable damage (or those that just want to see big numbers) while an arti split is best for spike DPS. As was said right at the start your build is just forcing in an option that is bad just so it can be worse at everything else. It has 0 benefit but costs a lot of feats and other resources that detract from what your build could do well. That I'm afraid is on you. Others have tried to give advice and help but you know best so sorry you get to live with the consequences.

[archest]

Additionally, Flurry of Blows allows a centered monk to receive a full BAB progression for all monk levels, rather than the standard 0.75.

[dredre9987]

Additionally, Flurry of Blows allows a centered monk to receive a full BAB progression for all monk levels, rather than the standard 0.75.


Not for feat requirements



Flurry of Blows (https://ddowiki.com/page/Flurry_of_Blows) (passive (https://ddowiki.com/page/Passive_feat)): When a monk is either unarmed (https://ddowiki.com/page/Unarmed) or is wielding only monk weapons (https://ddowiki.com/page/Monk_weapons) (Kama, Shuriken, Quarterstaff), the monk is treated as if they had a full Base Attack Bonus (https://ddowiki.com/page/Base_Attack_Bonus) for all monk levels they possess rather than a 3/4 Base Attack Bonus.

[Weemadarthur]

What's the future of the Great Xbow?

This is not about my build, it is about a Great Cross Bow option for players who have multi-classed rogue.
to wit I am one of them.
its about havening an available option specifically for the great cross bow which is underwhelming. in your opinion (bleed)
because it is not a main weapon doesn't make it non proficient. The 1st tree core hands you the proficiency for it.
as well I am doing fine using it as is (disappointing as everyone says it is)
it would be nice to have earlier access to IPS.
raise the BAB for rogue to 1.0 add a point of BAB to bleed 100%, there are options.
and please tell me how adding a bab point to 100% bleed breaks the game?

I will say again that the G-XB is a perfectly good option if you both build for it and know how to use it. I'm sorry but the problems you are having are purely down to your build choices and your lack of game knowledge. If you were to occasionally listen to those that actually know what they are talking about you would have no issues.

A rog multi class split can make excellent use of the G-XB and can be one of the more powerful splits in the game. You however have taken an extremely bad split and are now trying to claim game mechanics that are in place for balance reasons are wrong rather than look at your build choices. Yes it would be nice to have IPS earlier but it would also be nice to have fireballs and 200+ Strike through earlier too. The reasons why that is not the case are the same. If you want to have a build focused on range damage then build for it with a class split that complements the build. If you want to be a 2hf melee damage build make a class split that complements that build. If you want to be a caster build for that. If you want to be a gimp that does less damage at level 16 than most level 4 players stay as you are. The choice is yours.

In short the problems are not in the game mechanics but in your choices. If you will insist on making bad choices then don't complain about bad results.

Quick edit just to add if I make my pure rog build and get IPS at level 12 I can now clear every quest from 12 by quite literally 1 shotting my way through every group of monsters. It would make my build so OP that the original Inquis would pale in comparison. The Damage available to a good build is so far ahead of yours that you could not possibly understand. It would indeed be game breaking.

[archest]

Additionally, Flurry of Blows allows a centered monk to receive a full BAB progression for all monk levels, rather than the standard 0.75.

regardless its been accommodating to the desire for +BAB per level. which sets the precedence for your 3.5 not to mention the many spells which increase it as well.
so it not like its untouchable.

It isn't about my build it is about options for the future of the great crossbow. you have none.
I have one I would like access to IPS. is it going to happen ? probably not cause you cry more than I do.
. in addition its not talking changing the entire bab for the most part it is referring to a rogue tree change which would only help the splash rogue options of the great crossbow or a full rogue which does not have access to IPS until level 14 so it wouldn't over power it to have access +1 bab. at level 13 since fighters and such gain access at 11

what's wrong with archests' build? < is not the topic for this op.

[Weemadarthur]

Additionally, Flurry of Blows allows a centered monk to receive a full BAB progression for all monk levels, rather than the standard 0.75.

regardless its been accommodating to the desire for +BAB per level. which sets the precedence for your 3.5 not to mention the many spells which increase it as well.
so it not like its untouchable.

It isn't about my build it is about options for the future of the great crossbow. you have none.
I have one I would like access to IPS. is it going to happen ? probably not cause you cry more than I do.
. in addition its not talking changing the entire bab for the most part it is referring to a rogue tree change which would only help the splash rogue options of the great crossbow or a full rogue which does not have access to IPS until level 14 so it wouldn't over power it to have access +1 bab. at level 13 since fighters and such gain access at 11

what's wrong with archests' build? < is not the topic for this op.

And I say AGAIN! If you want G-XB with IPS before level 18 build for it. The options are there. As much as you don't like it this is about your bad build not the game mechanics.

Every problem you are facing can be neutralized with build options that complement each other. The solutions are already in the game. Nothing needs to be changed about IPS as the changes you are wanting can already be made with good build choices. If you choose to make a bad build that's fine. If you enjoy it that's fine. If that's your idea of fun that's fine. The rest of the game however should not be made to accommodate your bad choices though. It will have a big impact on those making good choices and lead to possibly game breaking balance issues.

[archest]

And I say AGAIN! If you want G-XB with IPS before level 18 build for it. The options are there. As much as you don't like it this is about your bad build not the game mechanics.

Every problem you are facing can be neutralized with build options that complement each other. The solutions are already in the game. Nothing needs to be changed about IPS as the changes you are wanting can already be made with good build choices. If you choose to make a bad build that's fine. If you enjoy it that's fine. If that's your idea of fun that's fine. The rest of the game however should not be made to accommodate your bad choices though. It will have a big impact on those making good choices and lead to possibly game breaking balance issues.

The options aren't there for IPS outside of the 1.0 class.
in fact that would be foolish to multiclass into fighter for isp.

but thats not what this topic is.

[Weemadarthur]

The options aren't there for IPS outside of the 1.0 class.
in fact that would be foolish to multiclass into fighter for isp.

but thats not what this topic is.

So a 6 rogue/6 arti/8 fighter is a non viable build in your opinion?

My last one was able to steamroll reapers to cap and then still do hits in excess of 20k+ each with a GXB whilst utilizing Both EF and IPS. Had excellent burst damage, decent sustainable dps and was walking around with good defenses and over 2k hp unbuffed. Let me know how yours compares? Now I will be honest it wasn't what I would call a good G-XB build (my 18rog/2 arti builds could hit for over 100k pre U50 using IPS (haven't run one since)) but it was certainly both viable & decent.

As has been said before the options are there if you build for them.

[dredre9987]

Additionally, Flurry of Blows allows a centered monk to receive a full BAB progression for all monk levels, rather than the standard 0.75.

regardless its been accommodating to the desire for +BAB per level. which sets the precedence for your 3.5 not to mention the many spells which increase it as well.
so it not like its untouchable.

It isn't about my build it is about options for the future of the great crossbow. you have none.
I have one I would like access to IPS. is it going to happen ? probably not cause you cry more than I do.
. in addition its not talking changing the entire bab for the most part it is referring to a rogue tree change which would only help the splash rogue options of the great crossbow or a full rogue which does not have access to IPS until level 14 so it wouldn't over power it to have access +1 bab. at level 13 since fighters and such gain access at 11

what's wrong with archests' build? < is not the topic for this op.


AGAIN that feat DOES NOT change requirements AND CANNOT be used to meet FEAT REQUIREMENTS.

[archest]

So a 6 rogue/6 arti/8 fighter is a non viable build in your opinion?

My last one was able to steamroll reapers to cap and then still do hits in excess of 20k+ each with a GXB whilst utilizing Both EF and IPS. Had excellent burst damage, decent sustainable dps and was walking around with good defenses and over 2k hp unbuffed. Let me know how yours compares? Now I will be honest it wasn't what I would call a good G-XB build (my 18rog/2 arti builds could hit for over 100k pre U50 using IPS (haven't run one since)) but it was certainly both viable & decent.

As has been said before the options are there if you build for them.

This is the future of the great crossbow.
in your opinion.
unfortunately you still dont get it.
actually i think playing that pos build you just showed would suk

[dredre9987]

This is the future of the great crossbow.
in your opinion.
unfortunately you still dont get it.
actually i think playing that pos build you just showed would suk

That is actually one of the better GXbow splits...

[Weemadarthur]

This is the future of the great crossbow.
in your opinion.
unfortunately you still dont get it.
actually i think playing that pos build you just showed would suk

What don't I get?

That you want the game remade so bad builds can still be bad but hit 1 or 2 extra mobs?

That you want to be as bad as possible so you can cry in multiple threads about how bad you are?

That a build that can do dps, stay alive and self heal is a worse option than one that can't?

Or just that your trolling?

P.S. It's not the future of the G-XB just 1 of many viable options atm.

[archest]

it would be nice to have earlier access to IPS for the great crossbow for Alchemist, Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Monk and Warlock. with a splash of rogue all of which can not gain IPS until level 18. all of which are .75 per level with a -1 for multiclassing from BAB. -2 in case of a 3rd class.

[archest]

AGAIN that feat DOES NOT change requirements AND CANNOT be used to meet FEAT REQUIREMENTS.

You cant have your pudding if you dont eat your meat ! how can you have any pudding of you dont eat your meat?
do you even know what precedence means?

[Weemadarthur]

it would be nice to have earlier access to IPS for the great crossbow for Alchemist, Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Monk and Warlock. with a splash of rogue all of which can not gain IPS until level 18. all of which are .75 per level with a -1 for multiclassing from BAB.

All of which have other (and better) options if they insist on using ranged weapons. Again no changes are needed. GXB is fine if you build for it. If you don't want to build for it use another option.

[dredre9987]

You cant have your pudding if you dont eat your meat ! how can you have any pudding of you dont eat your meat?
do you even know what precedence means?


Wonderful

[archest]

All of which have other (and better) options if they insist on using ranged weapons. Again no changes are needed. GXB is fine if you build for it. If you don't want to build for it use another option.

#1 its not about the actual build because the gxb is not the main weapon, its an alternative weapon, Main is casting , than come favored which is quarterstaff, and third is the gxb. it is about making the most of what is available in this case the gxb is better than the bow because it puts out more damage as the raged option ranged other than a single long ranged ray spell.

it is about the great cross bow as an optional weapon and adding ISP earlier to improve that option .
adding another class only weakens the cleric dc further than the 2dc from the rogue which is added for trapping.
again it would be nice to have access to IPS earlier then level 18.

again its not the only build with 2 rogue for trapping.
and probably not the only one using gxb and bleed as a backup.

[dredre9987]

and probably not the only one using gxb and bleed as a backup.


I'm willing to bet it is.

[Weemadarthur]

#1 its not about the actual build because the gxb is not the main weapon, its an alternative weapon, Main is casting , than come favored which is quarterstaff, and third is the gxb. it is about making the most of what is available in this case the gxb is better than the bow because it puts out more damage as the raged option ranged other than a single long ranged ray spell.

it is about the great cross bow as an optional weapon and adding ISP earlier to improve that option .
adding another class only weakens the cleric dc further than the 2dc from the rogue which is added for trapping.
again it would be nice to have access to IPS earlier then level 18.

again its not the only build with 2 rogue for trapping.
and probably not the only one using gxb and bleed as a backup.

So lets frame this another way.

Why do you feel that the G-XB should get IPS before every other ranged option when it is by far the biggest damage ranged weapon if you build for it?

[archest]

So lets frame this another way.

Why do you feel that the G-XB should get IPS before every other ranged option when it is by far the biggest damage ranged weapon if you build for it?

It would compliment a rogue sneak attack with multiple wounding hits as a secondary ranged weapon, reduce the need for long range spell point use.
the fast reload feat helps with the issue of ranged attack speed. ad mob rush until such a time as you can change weapons to a staff

when does a wiz get chain lighting? or a warlock get chained blaster enhancement?
I look at ISP as equal to those in ranged ability for multiple hits from a single shot.
the proficiency is offered free at core 1 mechanics tree , enhancements for gxb are in an evasion splash to tier 2/ +2 to hit +4 to damage +2 sneak attack die and bleed 100% maybe 100 hp damage per shot at level 17. with crit hit. 150 inclusive of enhancements and ruby :thats abotu 8 to 10 shots to kill lizards in coals.
though endless night will be in mine. note in this build ranged and melee power are at 1 each. 150 to 200 in sonic light and impulse 20 crt sonic and IPS is -20% damage ( will still get it for epics anyway.) #1 reason fun. its not a repeater, access is expensive.
play style maybe you are used to zerging out the quest flash banging stuff and running past it. I on the other have draw mobs apart and pull smaller groups out from larger ones and then kill them.

[Weemadarthur]

It would compliment a rogue sneak attack with multiple wounding hits as a secondary ranged weapon, reduce the need for long range spell point use.
the fast reload feat helps with the issue of ranged attack speed. ad mob rush until such a time as you can change weapons to a staff

when does a wiz get chain lighting? or a warlock get chained blaster enhancement?
I look at ISP as equal to those in ranged ability for multiple hits from a single shot.
the proficiency is offered free at core 1 mechanics tree , enhancements for gxb are in an evasion splash to tier 2/ +2 to hit +4 to damage +2 sneak attack die and bleed 100% maybe 100 hp damage per shot at level 17. with crit hit. 150 inclusive of enhancements and ruby : though endless night will be in mine. note in this build ranged and melee power are at 1 each. 150 to 200 in sonic light and impulse 20 crt sonic and IPS is -20% damage ( will still get it for epics anyway.) #1 reason fun.

But then there would be no trade off. The way DDO works (by design) is that if you multiclass complementary classes you can make a better end result. If you choose poorly then the trade off is a worse end result. If you want IPS earlier build for it. If you want to be a hybrid build that reaches your specific requirements the options are there. There is no need to redesign core game mechanics just to enable you to reach parameters that you didn't take into account on a bad build decision.

[archest]

But then there would be no trade off. The way DDO works (by design) is that if you multiclass complementary classes you can make a better end result. If you choose poorly then the trade off is a worse end result. If you want IPS earlier build for it. If you want to be a hybrid build that reaches your specific requirements the options are there. There is no need to redesign core game mechanics just to enable you to reach parameters that you didn't take into account on a bad build decision.

you keep referring this to a build decision. ( I haven't any problem with dex 19 and keeping evasion with light armor.)
when it is a build option when multiclassing rogue and taking the Mechanics tree (bleed).
when it is only involving the Great Crossbow accessibility.
when the topic is asking what is the future of the great cross bow.
the topic is not what is the future of Archaists multiclassed rogue cleric build.

yes personally I would like to see earlier access of the IPS feat by the great cross bow which isn't a core redesign rather a tree buff added to bleed.
could easily add the feat IPS to 100% bleed as long as the other prerequisites are met. DEX 19, point blank shot and precise shot . ( I would state anyone getting the great crossbow will be happier if they also have Rapid Reload feat.) in fact this could be added as a free feat as well or instead of IPS to help lower the excessive cost of feats for improving this weapon .
they haven't any issue adding the proficiency FEAT for the great cross bow in core one of mechanics tree.

have you any clue as to what the future is for the great cross bow ? imo you haven't an answer for the op.
or any desire that there may be a need for any changes so IMO your answer is there is no future for the great crossbow.

so I have 3 answers now for the OP.

#1 early access to IPS though changes to BAB in the mechanics tree Bleed enhancement.
#2 add IPS feat as long as the prerequisites are met disregarding BAB. in the mechanics tree Bleed enhancement.
#3 add Rapid Reload feat to lower the cost of improving the weapon. in the mechanics tree Bleed enhancement. 1 free feat and 3 or 4 others Rapid Reload being the 4th. not a prerequisite.

Great crossbow proficiency feat is available already to lower the cost but it only works to attract player to the weapon. and trap them into this conversation.

Bleed is a teir 1 level 1 rogue mechanics tree enhancement.

[Weemadarthur]

have you any clue as to what the future is for the great cross bow ? imo you haven't and answer for the op.
or any desire that there may be a need for any changes so IMO your answer is there is no future for the great crossbow.

Check the 1st page. I was thanked a bit later for giving the information (thats on 2nd page). It was about G-XB builds, G-XB in general and how they are actually not in a bad place (although other options are better in most level ranges). Your welcome.

[Weemadarthur]

so I have 3 answers now for the OP.

#1 early access to IPS though changes to BAB in the mechanics tree Bleed enhancement.
#2 add IPS feat as long as the prerequisites are met disregarding BAB. in the mechanics tree Bleed enhancement.
#3 add Rapid Reload feat to lower the cost of improving the weapon. in the mechanics tree Bleed enhancement. 1 free feat and 3 or 4 others Rapid Reload being the 4th. not a prerequisite.

Great crossbow proficiency feat is available already to lower the cost but it only works to attract player to the weapon. and trap them into this conversation.

Bleed is a teir 1 level 1 rogue mechanics tree enhancement.

None of these a viable options for balance reasons. A good build would have IPS at level 3 latest (Fighter splashes would be able to get it at level 2). If they were to put IPS into the mech tree it would be at the level 12+ core or a teir 5 enhancement. Any lower than that and those building for G-XB would rampage through low level content where you would literally be able to clear rooms with 1 shot. It would literally become the most unbalanced and overpowered ability in the game for the whole heroic leveling process.

Now I get that you can't understand that as you don't understand what a good build is capable of but it is very much the case. I appreciate you want to get IPS without any investment into the build but sorry that is not how the game works. What would be an extra 50-100 damage at level 17 for you would be an extra 200-800 damage in the hands of a good build by level 6.

[archest]

None of these a viable options for balance reasons. A good build would have IPS at level 3 latest (Fighter splashes would be able to get it at level 2). If they were to put IPS into the mech tree it would be at the level 12+ core or a teir 5 enhancement. Any lower than that and those building for G-XB would rampage through low level content where you would literally be able to clear rooms with 1 shot. It would literally become the most unbalanced and overpowered ability in the game for the whole heroic leveling process.

Now I get that you can't understand that as you don't understand what a good build is capable of but it is very much the case. I appreciate you want to get IPS without any investment into the build but sorry that is not how the game works. What would be an extra 50-100 damage at level 17 for you would be an extra 200-800 damage in the hands of a good build by level 6.

but the build would not be a "cleric".
you believe the gxbow is fine where its at.
I believe it leaves much to be desired in heroics.
for the cost in feats its a particular build for it .
so the future of the gxbow is there is no future for the gxbow.
you would have to be in love with it to wrap a build around the weapon race and class.
when I only want to use it for pre-damage solo build because if it weren't a solo build I wouldn't need to lose the ap in ranged or melee or the dc from splashing rogue for trapping.

[dredre9987]

but the build would not be a "cleric".
you believe the gxbow is fine where its at.
I believe it leaves much to be desired in heroics.
for the cost in feats its a particular build for it .
so the future of the gxbow is there is no future for the gxbow.
you would have to be in love with it to wrap a build around the weapon race and class.
when I only want to use it for pre-damage solo build because if it weren't a solo build I wouldn't need to lose the ap in ranged or melee or the dc from splashing rogue for trapping.

Holy hell bruh, IF YOU DON"T BUILD FOR SOMETHING YOU CANNOT EXPECT IT TO WORK AS WELL AS SOMEONE THAT ACTUALLY BUILDS FOR IT. If that is your expectation you need to not play this game.

[archest]

Holy hell bruh, IF YOU DON"T BUILD FOR SOMETHING YOU CANNOT EXPECT IT TO WORK AS WELL AS SOMEONE THAT ACTUALLY BUILDS FOR IT. If that is your expectation you need to not play this game.

"Wrong, Do it again!"
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you
have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
"You! Yes, you behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"

We don't need no education
We dont need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

why are you shouting?

[Weemadarthur]

but the build would not be a "cleric".
you believe the gxbow is fine where its at.
I believe it leaves much to be desired in heroics.
for the cost in feats its a particular build for it .
so the future of the gxbow is there is no future for the gxbow.
you would have to be in love with it to wrap a build around the weapon race and class.
when I only want to use it for pre-damage solo build because if it weren't a solo build I wouldn't need to lose the ap in ranged or melee or the dc from splashing rogue for trapping.

I will put this as simply as I can for the last time. You think the G-XB is non desirable because your build doesn't make good use of it. If you actually build for it it is actually very good (I would go as far as to say one of the top dps builds at cap). It is NOT A GOOD CHOICE FOR A 2 LEVEL ROGUE SPLIT ON A CLERIC BUILD AND IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE!

If you make it good for a 2 level rogue split on a cleric it becomes ridiculously OP on any build that is designed to use it. Asking for early access to IPS on a 2 level rogue splash is exactly the same as asking for Heal on a 2 level cleric splash, 200% Strikethrough on a 2 level Barb splash or Meteor swarm on a 2 level wiz splash. 2 levels of rogue on its own is not enough to make good use of a G-XB, its not supposed to be, this is why all the enhancements that make the G-XB a solid option are in the T5's and late cores of the mechanic tree.

Now, again, for the last time if you want to use the G-XB and have it be effective you have to build for it (if you want any help with that feel free to pm me and I'll outline a build for you). If you just want it there to tickle mobs and get their attention then it's as good/bad a choice as any other.

Now to go back to the point of this thread I will reiterate what I said earlier. G-XB is (on a good build) solid sustainable DPS. It is probably in the top 3 for single target ranged DPS. Inquis is generally better for questing as although it has lower damage its fire rate more than makes up for it. However as a lot of players have found switching to a G-XB while EF/NHB is active can give quite a substantial dps increase while EF/NHB lasts.

Now to put a little perspective on this as to where and how G-XB fits into the big scheme of things look at it like this:-

2HF, Dual X-bows(inquis), AOE casters are best for questing. Building for these is easy and requires little investment.

SWF/2WF, G-XB,HW Bow, Single target DPS Casters are best for Boss fighting/High HP beatdowns. These builds tend to require very specific investment to work but when built correctly are top notch DPS.

S&B, Repeaters. Can be made to work but will always be the worst option for dps.

[archest]

Like I said you like it the way it is and in your opinion there is no future for the great crossbow .

Like I Said it would be nice to have earlier access then level 18 to IPS for rogue splashed characters.
I've shown how that can be done without breaking the game .
we have a difference of opinion as to weather it violates 3.5 rules.
seeing as other options increase and decrease feat access without having to purchase feat.


If it doesn't happen oh well.

[Weemadarthur]

Like I said you like it the way it is and in your opinion there is no future for the great crossbow .

Like I Said it would be nice to have earlier access then level 18 to IPS for rogue splashed characters.
I've shown how that can be done without breaking the game .
we have a difference of opinion as to weather it violates 3.5 rules.
seeing as other options increase and decrease feat access without having to purchase feat.


If it doesn't happen oh well.

G-XB is currently good sustained DPS if you build for it = no future for G-XB?

Earlier access to IPS would break the game. That's the problem and why its not possible to get on any character before level 11. Also why I said if it was added it would be in the T5's or level 12+ cores.

I never once mentioned 3.5 ruleset or violations thereof.

Other options don't increase or decrease feat access. As was pointed out several times monks flurry of blows only adds to attack DC's and does not effect feat access.

In short please learn to read. If you have any trouble with the more difficult letters in this post I'm always here to help lol.

[archest]

G-XB is currently good sustained DPS if you build for it = no future for G-XB?

Earlier access to IPS would break the game. That's the problem and why its not possible to get on any character before level 11. Also why I said if it was added it would be in the T5's or level 12+ cores.

I never once mentioned 3.5 ruleset or violations thereof.

Other options don't increase or decrease feat access. As was pointed out several times monks flurry of blows only adds to attack DC's and does not effect feat access.

In short please learn to read. If you have any trouble with the more difficult letters in this post I'm always here to help lol.

core 1 of the mechanics tree gives you free great cross bow proficency.

[Weemadarthur]

core 1 of the mechanics tree gives you free great cross bow proficency.

Yup and then you can use it. Is there a point to your repeated stating of the obvious?

To use a phrase you seem to understand as you keep pointlessly spewing it out. If you don't eat your meat (build for G-XB) you cant have your pudding (IPS).

Does that help?

[archest]

Yup and then you can use it. Is there a point to your repeated stating of the obvious?

To use a phrase you seem to understand as you keep pointlessly spewing it out. If you don't eat your meat (build for G-XB) you cant have your pudding (IPS).

Does that help?

Other options don't increase or decrease feat access. As was pointed out several times monks flurry of blows only adds to attack DC's and does not effect feat access.

[Bjond]

If you don't eat your meat (build for G-XB) you cant have your pudding (IPS).
GXB's build options are rather narrow. It must dine only on kosher kobe beef and then gets a single jello pudding cup. Other ranged can snack on chicken and pork to unlock a gourmet pudding smorgasbord.

I don't really see this as much of an issue, since the overall game-play for ranged builds is nearly identical from one ranged build to another and because there are ways to make GXB pay if you're truly stuck on that one weapon type. And, well, ranged is in a very nice spot right now. Other archetypes have more pressing needs.

It's starting to sound like what we have here is more a case of Universal Tree Envy than a broken weapon issue.

[archest]

gonna post something for arguments sake.
"other options dont allow feat access"

free feats : elf
Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.

free feats EK

Spellsword: You gain four elemental toggles that each imbue your weapon with elemental power. Only one may be active at a time, causing them to deal an additional 1d6 (element) damage on hit (Note: the damage doesn't proc on shield bash). You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 Wizard levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18). This damage scales with Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional (element) damage per Character Level which scales with Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch. Note: mutually exclusive with Poisoned Coating toggle (Vile Chemist).
Passive
+2% Doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power.
You also gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial weapons.

Imbue the Blade: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat, reducing the time between spellcasting and weapon use.
-15% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor, Shields, and Warforged Body feats.

Subtle Force I: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. Your Spellsword dice are now D8s (instead of the original d6s).
-20% Arcane Spell Failure (stacking) from equipped Armor, Shields, and Warforged Body feats.
+6 Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire and Sonic damage.
+2% Doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power.

Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and you no longer suffer Arcane Spell Failure from Light Armor, Medium Armor or Mithral Body.

[dredre9987]

gonna post something for arguments sake.
"other options dont allow feat access"

free feats : elf
Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.

free feats EK

Spellsword: You gain four elemental toggles that each imbue your weapon with elemental power. Only one may be active at a time, causing them to deal an additional 1d6 (element) damage on hit (Note: the damage doesn't proc on shield bash). You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 Wizard levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18). This damage scales with Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional (element) damage per Character Level which scales with Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch. Note: mutually exclusive with Poisoned Coating toggle (Vile Chemist).
Passive
+2% Doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power.
You also gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial weapons.

Imbue the Blade: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat, reducing the time between spellcasting and weapon use.
-15% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor, Shields, and Warforged Body feats.

Subtle Force I: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. Your Spellsword dice are now D8s (instead of the original d6s).
-20% Arcane Spell Failure (stacking) from equipped Armor, Shields, and Warforged Body feats.
+6 Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire and Sonic damage.
+2% Doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power.

Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and you no longer suffer Arcane Spell Failure from Light Armor, Medium Armor or Mithral Body.


And which of those are a feat that has a high BaB?

[Weemadarthur]

gonna post something for arguments sake.
"other options dont allow feat access"

free feats : elf
Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.

free feats EK

Spellsword: You gain four elemental toggles that each imbue your weapon with elemental power. Only one may be active at a time, causing them to deal an additional 1d6 (element) damage on hit (Note: the damage doesn't proc on shield bash). You gain an additional 1d6 every 3 Wizard levels (at 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18). This damage scales with Spell Power. While active, your Eldritch Strike deals 1-2 additional (element) damage per Character Level which scales with Spell Power. While this is enabled, your weapon and shield attacks have Ghost Touch. Note: mutually exclusive with Poisoned Coating toggle (Vile Chemist).
Passive
+2% Doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power.
You also gain proficiency in Light Armor and Martial weapons.

Imbue the Blade: Melee weapons are considered Spellcasting Implements in your hands. You gain the Quick Draw feat, reducing the time between spellcasting and weapon use.
-15% Arcane Spell Failure from equipped Armor, Shields, and Warforged Body feats.

Subtle Force I: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. Your Spellsword dice are now D8s (instead of the original d6s).
-20% Arcane Spell Failure (stacking) from equipped Armor, Shields, and Warforged Body feats.
+6 Resistance to Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire and Sonic damage.
+2% Doublestrike, +10 Universal Spell Power.

Armored Arcana: You gain proficiency in Medium Armor, and you no longer suffer Arcane Spell Failure from Light Armor, Medium Armor or Mithral Body.

Not a single one of those feats have requirements. Hence none of those enhancements effect feat access.

Feats that have a requirement have 1 for balance reasons. IPS at low levels would be extremely unbalanced.

Most importantly and relevantly as far as the topic of this thread is concerned G-XB is still good if you build for it. This is not specific to G-XB though but to everything. Nothing in this game is good unless you build for it.

[Weemadarthur]

GXB's build options are rather narrow. It must dine only on kosher kobe beef and then gets a single jello pudding cup. Other ranged can snack on chicken and pork to unlock a gourmet pudding smorgasbord.

I don't really see this as much of an issue, since the overall game-play for ranged builds is nearly identical from one ranged build to another and because there are ways to make GXB pay if you're truly stuck on that one weapon type. And, well, ranged is in a very nice spot right now. Other archetypes have more pressing needs.

It's starting to sound like what we have here is more a case of Universal Tree Envy than a broken weapon issue.

Although I understand the point you are trying to make here I have to sort of disagree.

Most ranged options require heavy investment to be worth using.

Throwing daggers are sub par without investment in VKF

X-Bows are sub par without investment in Inq

G-XB are sub par without rog

Shurican are sub par without monk

Bows are sub par without H/W or Ranger.

Darts are sub par without Alch.

In short any ranged can be made into an option as a backup (to hit inaccessible mobs on a melee for example) but to get good results requires for that specific ranged option to be built for. In that respect the G-XB is pretty much the same as most other ranged options just with a different tree to get best the results.

[Bjond]

G-XB is pretty much the same as most other ranged options just with a different tree to get best the results.
It's not the tree that makes it narrow, it's the 18 levels of rogue. Shuriken only requires 3 levels of monk. Universal Trees can have anything under them. That's 17 levels + 2 classes or 20 levels and 3 classes of flexibility compared to just 2 levels of flex. There's enormous variety in the foundations you can use for all ranged except GXB.

Other than the flavor you get from the foundation, though, all ranged play pretty much identically. This is where I think we agree. Past the underpinnings, they're rather similar. They have a 1~2 button big hit. A duration burst. Building PS stacks. Kiting (& Stringing if you like IPS). And whatever flavor you added. This is why I don't see GXB's shortcomings as more than a very minor aesthetic problem.

[Weemadarthur]

It's not the tree that makes it narrow, it's the 18 levels of rogue. Shuriken only requires 3 levels of monk. Universal Trees can have anything under them. That's 17 levels + 2 classes or 20 levels and 3 classes of flexibility compared to just 2 levels of flex. There's enormous variety in the foundations you can use for all ranged except GXB.

Other than the flavor you get from the foundation, though, all ranged play pretty much identically. This is where I think we agree. Past the underpinnings, they're rather similar. They have a 1~2 button big hit. A duration burst. Building PS stacks. Kiting (& Stringing if you like IPS). And whatever flavor you added. This is why I don't see GXB's shortcomings as more than a very minor aesthetic problem.

The 18 levels of rogue isn't mandatory though. I posted a build earlier (6 rog, 6 arty, 8 fighter) that was just as powerful it just leant more toward burst damage than sustained. The same build can be made with pretty much any variation of those 3 classes as long as you take enough arty for EF (2/8/10 for example is just as good but tends to not be any better than the inquis version that is a tad easier to gear and play).

The biggest problem with G-XB builds is that for normal play inquis is generally better. That doesn't actually make G-XB bad though rather just not as good. For Boss burst damage though even inquis builds can generally do a lot better damage while NHB is active with a G-XB equipped over regular dual x-bows (as long as they are proficient and have a stat to damage bonus ofc).

[archest]

the biggest problem is hype and disappointment.
argument for IPS which isn't worth the cost.
nor the argument over breaking the game for the benefit of the feat. what a joke.
breaking the game ? your actually serious.
I think after 50 TRs maybe it might be worth another look at it but then you think everyone who pays has had 50 trs worth of advancement.
you are breaking the game.
with the attitude.
IPS is garbage .
the great cross bow is garbage.
your idea that its all powerful is totally ridiculous.
its a waste of resources and a waste of time to argue the issue because it might as well be another useless piece of ****.
Do Not Waste Your Time With it ......Let It Die.

[Weemadarthur]

the biggest problem is hype and disappointment.
argument for IPS which isn't worth the cost.
nor the argument over breaking the game for the benefit of the feat. what a joke.
breaking the game ? your actually serious.
I think after 50 TRs maybe it might be worth another look at it but then you think everyone who pays has had 50 trs worth of advancement.
you are breaking the game.
with the attitude.
IPS is garbage .
the great cross bow is garbage.
your idea that its all powerful is totally ridiculous.
its a waste of resources and a waste of time to argue the issue because it might as well be another useless piece of ****.
Do Not Waste Your Time With it ......Let It Die.

So after what? 4 pages of telling you that for your build the G-XB is no good and never can be because you didn't build for it and you saying no the G-XB is excellent and your build is great you finally get IPS and realize that G-XB is bad for your build and your damage sucks. Ofc you have to then blame the G-XB and IPS rather than admit maybe, just maybe you were wrong all along and your build is the problem but that would take a little maturity and the actual ability to be able to learn from mistakes.

So again G-XB is good if you build for it.
IPS is good if you build for it.
Both are a waste of time if you don't build for them.
You did not build for them so they suck.
This is not the fault of the G-XB or IPS but solely the fault of your build and your choices.

Now if you want to see what the G-XB is actually capable of please feel free to send me a PM and I will knock up a G-XB build for you and try to incorporate as much of your playstyle into the build as possible (if you are after a specific past life for example I will build around that request). It won't be top DPS but will be decent enough to show you what we have been trying to explain to you all along. If you have the Shadar Kai iconic I can even make you a 1st life build that you can start at level 15 and actually see what the hype is about immediately (will just require a G-XB and an int item to get started). If you don't enjoy it you will then have only wasted 10 mins for building the character so no great loss.

So balls in your court. If your willing to learn I'm happy to explain. If you would rather stay hostile and blame everyone else for your mistakes then fair well and I hope you have better luck in the future.

[archest]

no its not good for any build.
its a piece of garbage.
the system for the IPS is garbage.
its weak and not game braking at all .
IPS is garbage.
your attitude is garbage.
its just not worth the effort to fix it.

[Weemadarthur]

no its not good for any build.
its a piece of garbage.
the system for the IPS is garbage.
its weak and not game braking at all .
IPS is garbage.
your attitude is garbage.
its just not worth the effort to fix it.

Offering help = bad attitude.
I suppose in your world your a positive delight lol.

[yfernbottom]

Please pardon a small aside for I have a question related to this topic.

On my home server, I have a Rogue Mechanic at level 25. She was genuinely fun to level and pretty strong from 1 to 12.

On Hardcore, I have a 8 Rogue / 2 Barbarian Inquisitive with most points in Inquisitive, some in Mechanic, and a handful elsewhere.

I remember the Mechanic leveling with much greater ease than the Inquisitive. In addition, I find the animation and sound feedback for Inquisitive very jarring. Yet, I regularly read that Inquisitive beats Mechanic. Is that an end game thing?


Maybe it's a taste thing, because I hate the sound that repeaters make.

My experience has been that repeaters are much stronger at super low levels. However as soon as you have both rapid shot and rapid reload an Inq. build passes repeater. If nothing else law dice puts an Inq. build over the top.

For reference, I have alt with an old repeater build that stacks the artificer and mechanic trees to squeeze as much damage as I can out of a repeater. He just doesn't seem to put out the kind of damage I can get from most Inq. builds. It was great damage five years ago, but the game has moved on. I use him for storage now.