New update - Smooth transition from heroic to epic is epic lie by DDO developers

[Tebaco]

So i did it,
I TRed.

Now I am sitting at lvl20.
What are my options?
Basicaly i would continue doing 18lvl quests on reaper that make it 20lvl quests.
But here is 1st downside, you cant enter thouse dungeons on reaper, only on elite.

So does this feel like smooth transitions - NO!.

Also now we have gated epic abilities so additional power at lvl20 from epic destinies almost equal to 0.

So option number 2:
Run lvl 20 quests on reaper that makes it lvl22 quests. Is that smooth? - NO!.


And another thing to address is that if you open group panel with listed quests there isnt really support for epic versions of heroic quests.
So you have to open Adventure Compendium panel and sort there adventures by epic level. That way you able to see what quests at lvl20 you can to run.

Slayers after all seems like most easy choise to do.

[slarden]

I agree the transition is problematic. Dropping the reaper level 19 cap on level 18 and 19 quests should have been removed as part of U51.

My personal opinion is using saga xp, running slayers or challenges up to level 24 or 26 makes the most sense (power leveling with 30+ Rs using alts in my case). Then start level 20 quests at 24 if you are focused mostly on epic xp for max bb or level 25 or 26 if you want to push skulls and get more rxp out of it. At level 26 lgs and some other raid gear is available + tier 4 ED providing a significant boost to power so I opted for running level 20+ reapers starting at 26 and maxing rxp, but if you have any kind of xp pot you will hit 30 before you finish all the 20-23 quests if you do this, so I might try 24 next life.

At 26 low level epic quests seem easier on the same skull compared to running 30s at 30. This makes sense since there is a 6 level spread vs 0 level spread. The difficulty from quest to quest isn't 100% consistent, but mostly consistent. You can still get one-shot in storm the beaches without fire absorb - even at 26. Epic Devil Assault seems much more difficult than other 21s. Bargain of Blood is the perfect example of scaling strangeness at epic levels. The first mate which once upon a time was a difficult encounter you worked hard to avoid - now he has 600 hit points which means he will be one shot. The minotaur hp dropped from close to 200k to around 40k which seems ok for level 20. The kobold boss scaling appears unchanged from pre-U51 - and now he has more hp instead of much less than the minotaur - CR on the kobold is also much higher. Seems the kobold re-stat was never done.

Overall I am more inclined to run lower level epic quests than I was before U51 - so even though things aren't perfect I view it as an improvement.

[rabidfox]

They also need to rescale the old 18/19 quests as the mobs have higher stats now than epic quest mobs. They feel really out of place post-u51.

https://i.imgur.com/V5s74sg.jpg

[Oxarhamar]

So i did it,
I TRed.

Now I am sitting at lvl20.
What are my options?
Basicaly i would continue doing 18lvl quests on reaper that make it 20lvl quests.
But here is 1st downside, you cant enter thouse dungeons on reaper, only on elite.

So does this feel like smooth transitions - NO!.

Also now we have gated epic abilities so additional power at lvl20 from epic destinies almost equal to 0.

So option number 2:
Run lvl 20 quests on reaper that makes it lvl22 quests. Is that smooth? - NO!.


And another thing to address is that if you open group panel with listed quests there isnt really support for epic versions of heroic quests.
So you have to open Adventure Compendium panel and sort there adventures by epic level. That way you able to see what quests at lvl20 you can to run.

Slayers after all seems like most easy choise to do.

First grats on the Epic TR

Second yes I agree the transition is not smooth

Yep Epic lock out is a dated concept that came from the days when Epic Destinies came at full power @ level 20 it's not nessisary now

I wouldn't say the power at 20 equals 0 but it pales in comparison to the power available to and Epic TR before

I agree the LFM panel needs an update to show all levels of quests it could also use a bunch of other modernizations including fixing ghost lfms

The only saving grace of U51 is the monster nerf making things much easier for our nerfed charicters to handle

[Oxarhamar]

They also need to rescale the old 18/19 quests as the mobs have higher stats now than epic quest mobs. They feel really out of place post-u51.

https://i.imgur.com/V5s74sg.jpg

lol

+1

[krimsonrane]

So i did it,
I TRed.

Now I am sitting at lvl20.
What are my options?
Basicaly i would continue doing 18lvl quests on reaper that make it 20lvl quests.
But here is 1st downside, you cant enter thouse dungeons on reaper, only on elite.

So does this feel like smooth transitions - NO!.

Also now we have gated epic abilities so additional power at lvl20 from epic destinies almost equal to 0.

So option number 2:
Run lvl 20 quests on reaper that makes it lvl22 quests. Is that smooth? - NO!.


And another thing to address is that if you open group panel with listed quests there isnt really support for epic versions of heroic quests.
So you have to open Adventure Compendium panel and sort there adventures by epic level. That way you able to see what quests at lvl20 you can to run.

Slayers after all seems like most easy choise to do.

I ran into the same dilemma. Level 18-19 quests might as well not exist. The XP is ridiculously low. The Kobolds new ringleader, a level 2 quest, will net you nearly as much as level 18 quests.

Just pop on over to epics. Run them on elite or hard until you're leveled up enough to go back for reaper.

[Mindos]

They also need to rescale the old 18/19 quests as the mobs have higher stats now than epic quest mobs. They feel really out of place post-u51.



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rabidfox again.

This, definitely. It's as if there's some hidden internal scaling when the herioc effective quest level is 20 or more.

[Marshal_Lannes]

So does this feel like smooth transitions - NO!.

Also now we have gated epic abilities so additional power at lvl20 from epic destinies almost equal to 0.

So option number 2:
Run lvl 20 quests on reaper that makes it lvl22 quests. Is that smooth? - NO!.


Well, here we go again with more baseless accusations about "lies" from the developers that are not based on any actual game reality. How do I know? Because I just did it; on hardcore, with a first-life character, no legacy gear, using a ML10 Barovian weapon, and basic destiny points. If my character was able to accomplish running L21 Eveningstar quests at L21 when I have no margin for error how can it be so onerous for your character who can die however many times you want?

Before getting frustrated and typing something out on the forums perhaps ask for some help first when choosing your EDs. There is a lot of power unlocked from L21 to 23. 23 for example, gives you second ED cores. Once you start to understand the ED system you'll better be able to make constructive commentary about it.

[acemonkey]

There is a lot of power unlocked from L21 to 23. 23 for example, gives you second ED cores. Once you start to understand the ED system you'll better be able to make constructive commentary about it.

Once you start to understand the op was level 20 you’ll be better able… lol who am I kidding no you won’t. Game’s trash now, devs are busy shifting goalposts so they can repackage and resell power they already sold.

[Oxarhamar]

Well, here we go again with more baseless accusations about "lies" from the developers that are not based on any actual game reality. How do I know? Because I just did it; on hardcore, with a first-life character, no legacy gear, using a ML10 Barovian weapon, and basic destiny points. If my character was able to accomplish running L21 Eveningstar quests at L21 when I have no margin for error how can it be so onerous for your character who can die however many times you want?

Before getting frustrated and typing something out on the forums perhaps ask for some help first when choosing your EDs. There is a lot of power unlocked from L21 to 23. 23 for example, gives you second ED cores. Once you start to understand the ED system you'll better be able to make constructive commentary about it.

Hyperbole perhaps but indeed the OPs experience is based on the realization of the game

OP was speaking on the lvl 20 experience not on anything else

Even with understanding of the system at keels 21 to 23 it is not without faults and deserving of criticism in need of adjustments if things like DC casters have to adjust to nukers until later levels etc etc feedback floods the forums of shortcomings with the system

[Steeme]

Level up to 22 using other means then you should be able to blast R1 (on a decent build) all the way up to cap.

[Cernunan]

Well, here we go again with more baseless accusations about "lies" from the developers that are not based on any actual game reality. How do I know? Because I just did it; on hardcore, with a first-life character, no legacy gear, using a ML10 Barovian weapon, and basic destiny points. If my character was able to accomplish running L21 Eveningstar quests at L21 when I have no margin for error how can it be so onerous for your character who can die however many times you want?

Before getting frustrated and typing something out on the forums perhaps ask for some help first when choosing your EDs. There is a lot of power unlocked from L21 to 23. 23 for example, gives you second ED cores. Once you start to understand the ED system you'll better be able to make constructive commentary about it.

You did read that he was talking about running reaper, which you were not running reaper 21's on hardcore on a lvl 21 character.

Try to read what is posted before trying to attack and belittle people.

[droid327]

A, epic quests are easier than pre 51 even without full instant EDs, so yeah the transition is easier

B, no one is entitled to reaper at all times and if you can't then the game needs to change so you can. If you can't handle r1 at-level at 20 then drop down to EE till you can handle it, simple as that

[Wahnsinnig]

So i did it,
I TRed.


A bit late for you now, but the secret to get a smooth and easy start on your epic levelling is to prepare as many epic saga's as you can before you do your epic reincarnation, then you take the XP reward after reincarnating.

If you prepare all the saga's we have in game, and use a 50% potion you get enough XP to get you almost to level 25. I usually end up somewhere between lvl 21 to 23.

[slarden]

They also need to rescale the old 18/19 quests as the mobs have higher stats now than epic quest mobs. They feel really out of place post-u51.

https://i.imgur.com/V5s74sg.jpg

Part of the issue with heroics is that newer heroics scale different than older heroics which isn't consistent with the dev's goal of having a smooth leveling experience. This is just speculation but since most of the low level epics are older quests they are scaling based on heroic stats which is lower than newer quests of the same heroic level.

It's not a crisis requiring immediate attention, but I agree they should smooth out heroic quests as well.

[Tebaco]

A bit late for you now, but the secret to get a smooth and easy start on your epic levelling is to prepare as many epic saga's as you can before you do your epic reincarnation, then you take the XP reward after reincarnating.

If you prepare all the saga's we have in game, and use a 50% potion you get enough XP to get you almost to level 25. I usually end up somewhere between lvl 21 to 23.

Guys please, before you post something try to read the point of post.
There is so much off topic in here.


Dear Wahnsinnig,
I am not a noobie. Sure I know about sagas probably much more than you and other community. I been enjoying farming saga xp to inventory and using it in heroic leveling when they allowed such awesome thing. But back to the point. I am talking about transition from heroic to epic. As you go and play heroic quests on usual ddo gamer paradigma. So basically on reaper that add +2lvl of quest to its normal level. So when you level 16 you run 14lvl quests.
And I found out that since you reach level 20 than there exists couple of problems. That problems are mentioned in the first post. Some guys read that correctly and made excellent posts. Some just went trolling in. And some talking about something else.

So concentrate about those problems. Say that you would like to fixing them or that you really dont care about it. But dont try to scam this post with usual troll stuff. Objective why I even bother to post something like that is because I want to show devs how their game sux. Compared to other games - the last point (read 1st post) is just not acceptable. Game than looking unfinished.

[Wizard1406]

Epic elite and epic reaper are easier now than before but I agree the transition is not "smooth" yet. Elite has very hard hitting mobs compared to heroic and reaper has very high hp bosses on top of that (and reapers seem to have high hp too). So elite is a significant step up and reaper a big step up , but not longer HUGE as it used to be.

And I think lvl 20/21 epics should be balanced to be played with chars lvl 20/21, that have very few ED points yet. Playing quests your level -2 doesn't make sense in low epics, since lvl heroic 18/19 quests give very few xp compared to lvl 20+ epic quests.

I only play reaper in a group in epics, otherwise elite or even hard for speed (bosses have quite a bit of HP even in epic elite).

edit: some outlier mobs who were not properly downscaled should be fixed, like the Crag in "Into the deep". Scorpions in Claw of Vulkoor seem overtuned too. Werewolves in general, in every quest.

[merridyan]

Guys please, before you post something try to read the point of post.
There is so much off topic ******** in here.


Dear Wahnsinnig,
I am not a noobie. Sure I know about sagas probably much more than you and other community. I been enjoying farming saga xp to inventory and using it in heroic leveling when they allowed such awesome thing. But back to the point. I am talking about transition from heroic to epic. As you go and play heroic quests on usual ddo gamer paradigma. So basically on reaper that add +2lvl of quest to its normal level. So when you level 16 you run 14lvl quests.
And I found out that since you reach level 20 than there exists couple of problems. That problems are mentioned in the first post. Some guys read that correctly and made excellent posts. Some just went trolling in. And some talking about something else.

So concentrate about those problems. Say that you would like to fixing them or that you really dont care about it. But dont try to scam this post with usual troll stuff. Objective why I even bother to post something like that is because I want to show devs how their game sux. Compared to other games - the last point (read 1st post) is just not acceptable. Game than looking unfinished.

My experience with the ED redo:

Before:
Solo r1-r4 up to level 20
EH from 20-30, could do EE/r1 on most quests but took twice as long so slowed leveling

After ED revamp:
Solo r1-r4 up to level 20
r1-r3 from 20-30

Not sure what you are talking about here, my experience is the exact opposite. Running 20+ reaper is easier than ever for me now.

[Tebaco]

Not sure what you are talking about here, my experience is the exact opposite. Running 20+ reaper is easier than ever for me now.

If someone is not able read or understand written text is not my problem.

[thedip]

As mentioned in a previous thread; increasing the dismal xp in the later heroic quests, 17-19 would give a character far more options and would make the transition a lot easier.

[Marshal_Lannes]

As mentioned in a previous thread; increasing the dismal xp in the later heroic quests, 17-19 would give a character far more options and would make the transition a lot easier.

How? Look I'm for increasing XP on any and every quest in that level range but how would that change questing at L20? You can't enter those quests. Even if you say, bump up, the Shavarath L19s to L20 quests do you really think people are going to run those on reaper as part of the L20 experience? Most are going to do the exact same thing they are doing now.

Hundreds of players are going from L20 to L21 on Hardcore using heroic gear. DDO even thematically sets this up as doing slayers in the King's Forest brings you to 21 introducing you to the whole Drow invasion then you can do the quests at L21 on R1 or EE. And, as has been pointed out, running reaper is not a DDO right. If it is too hard for you lower the difficulty. Why is this such a complex concept for some people? On hardcore, I was in a two-man group to start the Eveningstar chain so we into Impossible Demands on EH. Two more joined en route to Unquiet Graves and we ran that on EE. We picked up two more than started the whole chain again on R1. Never had any problems no one came close to dying.

Having recently run many of these quests on a first-life character, I can positively say that L19 quests are harder than L21 quests. In Murder by Night, the mobs are dense as Gibraltar. I wouldn't even consider doing something like Sins of Attrition or New Invasion on elite. Those vs Unquiet Graves? No comparison. Or take those vs stuff like the Snitch. Epic Snitch is so much easier. So if anything the heroic transition gets easier going into low epics - or stays the same if you're running stuff like Sharn2/Vale/Lords of Dust then going into epics Sentinals/Carnival/Eveningstar.

Rebalancing a game is no small task. I was dubious that DDO was going to be able to pull it off. They succeeded beyond my expectations and never before has leveling in early epics been as seamless. Your abilities that you've been using your entire heroic life actually work. Years from now people will look back and be astounding that you once had to play your character completely differently or be an epic completionist with a ton of twists to play epics at L20. Great job, DDO.

[Oxarhamar]

How? Look I'm for increasing XP on any and every quest in that level range but how would that change questing at L20? You can't enter those quests. Even if you say, bump up, the Shavarath L19s to L20 quests do you really think people are going to run those on reaper as part of the L20 experience? Most are going to do the exact same thing they are doing now.

Hundreds of players are going from L20 to L21 on Hardcore using heroic gear. DDO even thematically sets this up as doing slayers in the King's Forest brings you to 21 introducing you to the whole Drow invasion then you can do the quests at L21 on R1 or EE. And, as has been pointed out, running reaper is not a DDO right. If it is too hard for you lower the difficulty. Why is this such a complex concept for some people? On hardcore, I was in a two-man group to start the Eveningstar chain so we into Impossible Demands on EH. Two more joined en route to Unquiet Graves and we ran that on EE. We picked up two more than started the whole chain again on R1. Never had any problems no one came close to dying.

Having recently run many of these quests on a first-life character, I can positively say that L19 quests are harder than L21 quests. In Murder by Night, the mobs are dense as Gibraltar. I wouldn't even consider doing something like Sins of Attrition or New Invasion on elite. Those vs Unquiet Graves? No comparison. Or take those vs stuff like the Snitch. Epic Snitch is so much easier. So if anything the heroic transition gets easier going into low epics - or stays the same if you're running stuff like Sharn2/Vale/Lords of Dust then going into epics Sentinals/Carnival/Eveningstar.

Rebalancing a game is no small task. I was dubious that DDO was going to be able to pull it off. They succeeded beyond my expectations and never before has leveling in early epics been as seamless. Your abilities that you've been using your entire heroic life actually work. Years from now people will look back and be astounding that you once had to play your character completely differently or be an epic completionist with a ton of twists to play epics at L20. Great job, DDO.

The work is not done

At least here you are admitted some of the problems that exist even if you don't admit that they are problems

[thedip]

How? Look I'm for increasing XP on any and every quest in that level range but how would that change questing at L20? You can't enter those quests. Even if you say, bump up, the Shavarath L19s to L20 quests do you really think people are going to run those on reaper as part of the L20 experience? Most are going to do the exact same thing they are doing now.

Hundreds of players are going from L20 to L21 on Hardcore using heroic gear. DDO even thematically sets this up as doing slayers in the King's Forest brings you to 21 introducing you to the whole Drow invasion then you can do the quests at L21 on R1 or EE. And, as has been pointed out, running reaper is not a DDO right. If it is too hard for you lower the difficulty. Why is this such a complex concept for some people? On hardcore, I was in a two-man group to start the Eveningstar chain so we into Impossible Demands on EH. Two more joined en route to Unquiet Graves and we ran that on EE. We picked up two more than started the whole chain again on R1. Never had any problems no one came close to dying.

Having recently run many of these quests on a first-life character, I can positively say that L19 quests are harder than L21 quests. In Murder by Night, the mobs are dense as Gibraltar. I wouldn't even consider doing something like Sins of Attrition or New Invasion on elite. Those vs Unquiet Graves? No comparison. Or take those vs stuff like the Snitch. Epic Snitch is so much easier. So if anything the heroic transition gets easier going into low epics - or stays the same if you're running stuff like Sharn2/Vale/Lords of Dust then going into epics Sentinals/Carnival/Eveningstar.

Rebalancing a game is no small task. I was dubious that DDO was going to be able to pull it off. They succeeded beyond my expectations and never before has leveling in early epics been as seamless. Your abilities that you've been using your entire heroic life actually work. Years from now people will look back and be astounding that you once had to play your character completely differently or be an epic completionist with a ton of twists to play epics at L20. Great job, DDO.

I am sorry, but I don't respond to posts that come across as aggressive.

[Oxarhamar]

I am sorry, but I don't respond to posts that come across as aggressive.

+1

[Oxarhamar]

As mentioned in a previous thread; increasing the dismal xp in the later heroic quests, 17-19 would give a character far more options and would make the transition a lot easier.

Good buddy Chacka had been suggesting allowing lvl 20s into heroic 18 & 19 on R

This was before the ED update and it made sense at that point to not allow characters with full ED to enter but with the changes I now agree with Chacka

I also agree that XP has needed adjustment

[Wahnsinnig]

Guys please, before you post something try to read the point of post.
There is so much off topic ******** in here.


Dear Wahnsinnig,
I am not a noobie. Sure I know about sagas probably much more than you and other community. I been enjoying farming saga xp to inventory and using it in heroic leveling when they allowed such awesome thing. But back to the point. I am talking about transition from heroic to epic. As you go and play heroic quests on usual ddo gamer paradigma. So basically on reaper that add +2lvl of quest to its normal level. So when you level 16 you run 14lvl quests.
And I found out that since you reach level 20 than there exists couple of problems. That problems are mentioned in the first post. Some guys read that correctly and made excellent posts. Some just went trolling in. And some talking about something else.

So concentrate about those problems. Say that you would like to fixing them or that you really dont care about it. But dont try to scam this post with usual troll stuff. Objective why I even bother to post something like that is because I want to show devs how their game sux. Compared to other games - the last point (read 1st post) is just not acceptable. Game than looking unfinished.

You know, people are actually trying to help you here.

You spend a lot of time here telling people off for not giving you the answers you want. You might want to go learn some manners before you post next. :rolleyes:

[slarden]

Hundreds of players are going from L20 to L21 on Hardcore using heroic gear. DDO even thematically sets this up as doing slayers in the King's Forest brings you to 21 introducing you to the whole Drow invasion then you can do the quests at L21 on R1 or EE. Keep in mind that once you talk about higher levels on hardcore that group is represented by some really solid players.



Having recently run many of these quests on a first-life character, I can positively say that L19 quests are harder than L21 quests. In Murder by Night, the mobs are dense as Gibraltar. I wouldn't even consider doing something like Sins of Attrition or New Invasion on elite. Those vs Unquiet Graves? No comparison. Or take those vs stuff like the Snitch. Epic Snitch is so much easier. So if anything the heroic transition gets easier going into low epics - or stays the same if you're running stuff like Sharn2/Vale/Lords of Dust then going into epics Sentinals/Carnival/Eveningstar.

I think this is true, but there are some exceptions such as epic devil assault, although I don't think Shavarath is especially hard even at 19 on low R - elite was much harder in 2010 compared to R now due to all the power accumulated by players. Having a person that solo the last part is key for Sins.



Rebalancing a game is no small task. I was dubious that DDO was going to be able to pull it off. They succeeded beyond my expectations and never before has leveling in early epics been as seamless. Your abilities that you've been using your entire heroic life actually work. Years from now people will look back and be astounding that you once had to play your character completely differently or be an epic completionist with a ton of twists to play epics at L20. Great job, DDO. I agree I give SSG an A- on the quest rebalancing, but there is still work to be done. Some people will never get over the mental hurdle that they are weaker and enemies are weaker - and will choose to focus on the part about them being weaker only.

This has to be a huge positive for retaining new players - I have no idea what that population is. Hitting epic levels was a wall of suck for new players previously.

[MistaMagic]

So i did it,
I TRed.

Now I am sitting at lvl20.
What are my options?
Basicaly i would continue doing 18lvl quests on reaper that make it 20lvl quests.
But here is 1st downside, you cant enter thouse dungeons on reaper, only on elite.

So does this feel like smooth transitions - NO!.

Also now we have gated epic abilities so additional power at lvl20 from epic destinies almost equal to 0.

So option number 2:
Run lvl 20 quests on reaper that makes it lvl22 quests. Is that smooth? - NO!.


And another thing to address is that if you open group panel with listed quests there isnt really support for epic versions of heroic quests.
So you have to open Adventure Compendium panel and sort there adventures by epic level. That way you able to see what quests at lvl20 you can to run.

Slayers after all seems like most easy choise to do.

Your options are the same as I just did (Apart from I was boxing my mate as he is away from game due to being ill). Did a Iconic life all the way to 30 on R3 mainly solo as to much hassle running 2 toons to a lot of quests. Did not have a problem at all. Personaly I prefer the new Epic Destinys as a whole and the earlier level of the feats but do miss the lvl20 upfront UBERNESS

[CSQ]

They also need to rescale the old 18/19 quests as the mobs have higher stats now than epic quest mobs. They feel really out of place post-u51.

https://i.imgur.com/V5s74sg.jpg

I don't think this is actually the fault of u51. Some content in DDO is much easier than average content, and some is so much more difficult that it's ludicrous. A large part of that is quests that have both heroic and epic content introduced between u25 (Temple of Elemental Evil) and I would say probably around u37 (Ravenloft) have more difficult than average heroic counterparts. Content introduced before u25 can often have the inverse problem- it seems much easier than the heroic counterparts. I think most of the content (with a few exceptions) since u37 has been better in general in terms of balance. There are a few pain points, but the "It feels like heroic is balanced around epic" vibe is less now.

The scaling of epics in u51 is, to my knowledge, the only major stat scaling effort in years. I don't think it necessarily has a lot of problems mechanically- things didn't feel "bad" when I ran low epics as a low epic character, and while higher epics were a bit more challenging, they didn't feel impossible either. I think the big problem is consistency at level, and I think the better way to fix it rather than nerfing or buffing encounters is to scale experience upwards in more difficult quests. I think TR's in DDO just take too long- sure, experienced players with pots and experience tomes can min/max them out in three days to meet the reset timer, but players who aren't dumping 20 hours into the game over a weekend can definitely feel a slog, especially at certain level ranges. Some of the content that feels very difficult might be in line for an experience payout buff- Heroic Tethyamar, for example, is a quest chain that while designed in an interesting way is just not worth running because the quest just takes too long and is relatively more difficult compared to other base level 15 quests (for example, the Disciples of Shadow chain leading up to Wheloon). They're both level 15 quest chains located in Eveningstar, but I don't think Tethyamar is worth the marginally higher (maybe 20-50% per quest depending on which ones you compare) experience payout compared to the much more feasible DoS chain that even I, a bad player with terrible character design decisions, can solo on R1. Tethyamar just takes longer, and while some of the later quests in the Tethyamar chain shine, slogging through "heroic" versions of very powerful epic drow that hit about three times as hard as the heroic shadows, bandits, lizardmen, and wolves of DoS in much longer quests isn't worth less experience per minute. The other enemies don't stick in my mind quite as sourly, and I remember really enjoying the final quest in the chain, but the two labyrinthine slogs through drow complexes did not, as the kids say, spark joy.

Tethyamar is definitely a sore point for me, and one that I think exhibits maybe the worst example of this problem (because level 15 *should* be fertile ground for content- prior to Sharn, level 15 was definitely suffering from content drought) but it didn't serve to help this because it generally isn't fun to slog through clumps of HP bag drow with high damage over and over again until you get to flag for the finale. Maybe I should give it a go again and see if I'm just salty and biased from a bad experience, but I remember trying it on some of my better builds and not really having a good time.

[slarden]

I don't think this is actually the fault of u51. Some content in DDO is much easier than average content, and some is so much more difficult that it's ludicrous. A large part of that is quests that have both heroic and epic content introduced between u25 (Temple of Elemental Evil) and I would say probably around u37 (Ravenloft) have more difficult than average heroic counterparts. Content introduced before u25 can often have the inverse problem- it seems much easier than the heroic counterparts. I think most of the content (with a few exceptions) since u37 has been better in general in terms of balance. There are a few pain points, but the "It feels like heroic is balanced around epic" vibe is less now.

The scaling of epics in u51 is, to my knowledge, the only major stat scaling effort in years. I don't think it necessarily has a lot of problems mechanically- things didn't feel "bad" when I ran low epics as a low epic character, and while higher epics were a bit more challenging, they didn't feel impossible either. I think the big problem is consistency at level, and I think the better way to fix it rather than nerfing or buffing encounters is to scale experience upwards in more difficult quests. I think TR's in DDO just take too long- sure, experienced players with pots and experience tomes can min/max them out in three days to meet the reset timer, but players who aren't dumping 20 hours into the game over a weekend can definitely feel a slog, especially at certain level ranges. Some of the content that feels very difficult might be in line for an experience payout buff- Heroic Tethyamar, for example, is a quest chain that while designed in an interesting way is just not worth running because the quest just takes too long and is relatively more difficult compared to other base level 15 quests (for example, the Disciples of Shadow chain leading up to Wheloon). They're both level 15 quest chains located in Eveningstar, but I don't think Tethyamar is worth the marginally higher (maybe 20-50% per quest depending on which ones you compare) experience payout compared to the much more feasible DoS chain that even I, a bad player with terrible character design decisions, can solo on R1. Tethyamar just takes longer, and while some of the later quests in the Tethyamar chain shine, slogging through "heroic" versions of very powerful epic drow that hit about three times as hard as the heroic shadows, bandits, lizardmen, and wolves of DoS in much longer quests isn't worth less experience per minute. The other enemies don't stick in my mind quite as sourly, and I remember really enjoying the final quest in the chain, but the two labyrinthine slogs through drow complexes did not, as the kids say, spark joy.

Tethyamar is definitely a sore point for me, and one that I think exhibits maybe the worst example of this problem (because level 15 *should* be fertile ground for content- prior to Sharn, level 15 was definitely suffering from content drought) but it didn't serve to help this because it generally isn't fun to slog through clumps of HP bag drow with high damage over and over again until you get to flag for the finale. Maybe I should give it a go again and see if I'm just salty and biased from a bad experience, but I remember trying it on some of my better builds and not really having a good time.

This is exactly right. The epic numbers are based directly on heroics. So the problem has more to do with heroic quests @ the same level not being consistent vs. the epic scaling. Epic scaling is mostly working, but there are some anomalies such as the things I reported earlier in the thread. Most notably Devil Assault which has a weird heroic 6/12/18 split so it seems on E/R difficulties it's using the level 18 stats as if they were level 6 stats and scaling those up to epic levels. That part is speculation, but the #s are definitely off.

[rabidfox]

This, definitely. It's as if there's some hidden internal scaling when the herioc effective quest level is 20 or more.

Yeah, it's like it's trying to apply some sort of old epic (pre-51) numbers to the health of mobs (maybe other stats of theirs too) once the heroic 18/19 quest is running at a relative level 20/21 via difficulty adjustments.


Having recently run many of these quests on a first-life character, I can positively say that L19 quests are harder than L21 quests. In Murder by Night, the mobs are dense as Gibraltar. I wouldn't even consider doing something like Sins of Attrition or New Invasion on elite. Those vs Unquiet Graves? No comparison. Or take those vs stuff like the Snitch. Epic Snitch is so much easier. So if anything the heroic transition gets easier going into low epics - or stays the same if you're running stuff like Sharn2/Vale/Lords of Dust then going into epics Sentinals/Carnival/Eveningstar.

That's why I popped over to live after running stuff on HC to see the mobs actual stats (and grab the screenshots). The 4x jump in health in Murder by Night when going from hard to elite was pretty much just a ton of bloat; that while do-able on HC felt sluggish to kill them all.


I don't think this is actually the fault of u51. Some content in DDO is much easier than average content, and some is so much more difficult that it's ludicrous. A large part of that is quests that have both heroic and epic content introduced between u25 (Temple of Elemental Evil) and I would say probably around u37 (Ravenloft) have more difficult than average heroic counterparts. Content introduced before u25 can often have the inverse problem- it seems much easier than the heroic counterparts. I think most of the content (with a few exceptions) since u37 has been better in general in terms of balance. There are a few pain points, but the "It feels like heroic is balanced around epic" vibe is less now.

I don't think it's u51's fault; I think u51 just makes it really obvious that the old 18/19's are outliers stat wise (when scaled up to 20/21) compared to epics now post-u51 (before u51 they didn't feel any more bloated than old early epics did so they weren't out of place per se). If they fixed the stat curve there and opened them up to allow running on reaper without the level 20 lockout, I suspect they might get run more outside of people on HC & those farming ioun stones / yugo favor for pots.

[Oxarhamar]

Yeah, it's like it's trying to apply some sort of old epic (pre-51) numbers to the health of mobs (maybe other stats of theirs too) once the heroic 18/19 quest is running at a relative level 20/21 via difficulty adjustments.



That's why I popped over to live after running stuff on HC to see the mobs actual stats (and grab the screenshots). The 4x jump in health in Murder by Night when going from hard to elite was pretty much just a ton of bloat; that while do-able on HC felt sluggish to kill them all.



I don't think it's u51's fault; I think u51 just makes it really obvious that the old 18/19's are outliers stat wise (when scaled up to 20/21) compared to epics now post-u51 (before u51 they didn't feel any more bloated than old early epics did so they weren't out of place per se). If they fixed the stat curve there and opened them up to allow running on reaper without the level 20 lockout, I suspect they might get run more outside of people on HC & those farming ioun stones / yugo favor for pots.

Yep Y51 didn't cause the stat bloat in lvl 18/19 just made it more obvious that balance isn't finished

[Chacka_DDO]

They also need to rescale the old 18/19 quests as the mobs have higher stats now than epic quest mobs. They feel really out of place post-u51.

https://i.imgur.com/V5s74sg.jpg

I started a discussion about that matter already several times, the point many players don't see (or admit as Cordovan) is that in D&D and basically also mostly in DDO level 20 is still heroic and 21 is the first epic level.
For that reason, epic scaling starts also for monsters when the effective quest level is 21 (nominal level +2 on elite or reaper difficulty) on hard the nominal level 19 quest is effectively level 20 and for that reason no epic scaling for monsters. (at least this is the most plausible explanation in my opinion)

There are also other signs that show LVL 21 is the first epic quest (and character) level in DDO like collectibles or lost souls and also reapers have MUCH higher HP saves etc. in a nominal level 19 quest at reaper difficulty.

I still hope that the developers remove the nonsensical lockout for LVL 20 characters at least for level 19 quests on reaper difficulty...

In my opinion, the max +4 rule is sufficient and there is no need for a lockout of epic characters even less if they are actually not epic (level 1-20)

But it is actually possible to suck a level 20+ character into a heroic quest on reaper :o

[Ganak]

Having problems running reaper, just drop the difficulty. That's what it's there for.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Keep in mind that once you talk about higher levels on hardcore that group is represented by some really solid players.

That's totally fair. If the OP can't do reaper they might not be good enough (gear, meta, tomes, build). Reaper was designed for the best players, not the casual gamer.



I agree I give SSG an A- on the quest rebalancing, but there is still work to be done. Some people will never get over the mental hurdle that they are weaker and enemies are weaker - and will choose to focus on the part about them being weaker only.

This has to be a huge positive for retaining new players - I have no idea what that population is. Hitting epic levels was a wall of suck for new players previously.

I mean, we can't please those people. They don't like DDO. They have some idealized vision of what they think DDO was 8 years ago and now just hang around here to cause drama. Almost everyone I've played with likes the stat reduction and changes to combat but a vocal minority will never get over losing their +22 numbers. I completely agree the game is so much better for new players now. I am legit enjoying epics on hardcore. For a first lifer, the new destiny system and the results it produces are so superior it's not even close.

[Oxarhamar]

That's totally fair. If the OP can't do reaper they might not be good enough (gear, meta, tomes, build). Reaper was designed for the best players, not the casual gamer.



I mean, we can't please those people. They don't like DDO. They have some idealized vision of what they think DDO was 8 years ago and now just hang around here to cause drama. Almost everyone I've played with likes the stat reduction and changes to combat but a vocal minority will never get over losing their +22 numbers. I completely agree the game is so much better for new players now. I am legit enjoying epics on hardcore. For a first lifer, the new destiny system and the results it produces are so superior it's not even close.

Incorrect those who critique DDO like DDO enough to offer constructive criticism.

[Certon]

They also need to rescale the old 18/19 quests as the mobs have higher stats now than epic quest mobs. They feel really out of place post-u51.

https://i.imgur.com/V5s74sg.jpg

its specifically animals that are OP in Epic and Legendary content, and I think werewolves count as animals. Ravenloft is especially egregious in this.

[rabidfox]

its specifically animals that are OP in Epic and Legendary content, and I think werewolves count as animals. Ravenloft is especially egregious in this.

Other mob types seemed off too in heroic 18/19 quests when they hit 20/21; I just didn't spend time going into every quest to see what all is/isn't scaled well. But the werewolves were some of the worst of the lot and the animal aspect makes sense for that.

[Chacka_DDO]

Having problems running reaper, just drop the difficulty. That's what it's there for.


You don't understand that the matter is logic, a nominal level 19 quest is technically epic when you play it in Reaper difficulty, there several signs that tell you that, reapers scale to epic in such quests and also normal monsters have a big jump in hp (and most likely other stats you can not identify as easy as the visible HP score).

This is NOT about difficulty even if it would be of course easier to do a level 19 quest (nominal 21 in reaper) with a level 20-23 character this is only a side effect of making it logical if you would thereafter raise the difficulty to make it at the end even harder I would not complain as long as it is logical.

Because there is actually a trick that makes it possible to enter a heroic quest with a level 20+ character on reaper I can actually try how it feels, and my impression is that this is for sure not that easy that this should not be allowed.
My estimation is that some level 19 quests on r4 or even higher (with a level 20-22 character) are harder than several Eveningstar quests that are nominal clearly epic (21) and this is also on r4.

And the problem is it is completely forbidden to enter a level 16-19 quest on reaper while it is for sure not much easier than other quests you are allowed to do, for example, Lord of Dust is very easy even on r4 with a level 23-25 character (my impression of course).

If you ask me a level 20 character should have no access to EDs unless he plays nominal level 21+ quests (even better EDs usable at character level 21+) and he should be allowed to play nominal level 16-20 quests and such quests should have no epic scaling, this would make logical much more sense than the current situation.
And notice this would be a nerf by making level 20 characters weaker... ;)
Once more, EDs were introduced to DDO with the first epic character levels 21-25 and it is simply an inconsistency that you can use them at level 20, an inconsistency in DDO and in the D&D "universe".

And last but not least, my experience is that most players currently simply skip nominal level 18-19 quests because they have already with level 1-17 quests enough experience for level 20 and it is easier to take level 20 and play the low epic quests.
Therefore such a change would foremost make it a real option again to play 18-19 quests.

But even if I still like to play DDO I can see that it could improve a lot when it comes to gameplay and game balance.

[slarden]

I still hope that the developers remove the nonsensical lockout for LVL 20 characters at least for level 19 quests on reaper difficulty...

In my opinion, the max +4 rule is sufficient and there is no need for a lockout of epic characters even less if they are actually not epic (level 1-20)

I agree, although ED does distort things a bit so I would be fine if they changed the lockout for level to 16-18 heroic quests to max level 20 and level 19 quests to max level 21 and the few heroic 20s to max level 22. Something that would prevent ED distorting difficulty too much. I would also be fine if they just made it max level 4 above for simplicity since it's unlikely to be abused as the rpx/min payout is still below running level 30 quests. It should definitely not be 6 levels above for those quests as ED adds too much.

This needs to be done for a smooth reaper leveling experience.

[Oxarhamar]

You don't understand that the matter is logic, a nominal level 19 quest is technically epic when you play it in Reaper difficulty, there several signs that tell you that, reapers scale to epic in such quests and also normal monsters have a big jump in hp (and most likely other stats you can not identify as easy as the visible HP score).

This is NOT about difficulty even if it would be of course easier to do a level 19 quest (nominal 21 in reaper) with a level 20-23 character this is only a side effect of making it logical if you would thereafter raise the difficulty to make it at the end even harder I would not complain as long as it is logical.

Because there is actually a trick that makes it possible to enter a heroic quest with a level 20+ character on reaper I can actually try how it feels, and my impression is that this is for sure not that easy that this should not be allowed.
My estimation is that some level 19 quests on r4 or even higher (with a level 20-22 character) are harder than several Eveningstar quests that are nominal clearly epic (21) and this is also on r4.

And the problem is it is completely forbidden to enter a level 16-19 quest on reaper while it is for sure not much easier than other quests you are allowed to do, for example, Lord of Dust is very easy even on r4 with a level 23-25 character (my impression of course).

If you ask me a level 20 character should have no access to EDs unless he plays nominal level 21+ quests (even better EDs usable at character level 21+) and he should be allowed to play nominal level 16-20 quests and such quests should have no epic scaling, this would make logical much more sense than the current situation.
And notice this would be a nerf by making level 20 characters weaker... ;)
Once more, EDs were introduced to DDO with the first epic character levels 21-25 and it is simply an inconsistency that you can use them at level 20+, an inconsistency in DDO and in the D&D "universe".

And last but not least, my experience is that most players currently simply skip nominal level 18-19 quests because they have already with level 1-17 quests enough experience for level 20 and it is easier to take level 20 and play the low epic quests.
Therefore such a change would foremost make it a real option again to play 18-19 quests.

But even if I still like to play DDO I can see that it could improve a lot when it comes to gameplay and game balance.

Now that EDs have been nerfed it makes more sense to remove the lockout on Reaper for Epic from Heroic quests completely it would breath new life into levels that are mostly just skipping now

[Chacka_DDO]

Now that EDs have been nerfed it makes more sense to remove the lockout on Reaper for Epic from Heroic quests completely it would breath new life into levels that are mostly just skipping now

Right, and I forgot to mention that another problem for not taking level 20 is that you are not able to gain experience for your epic levels (21+) and for this reason, only a small minority of players see currently any sense in playing level 18-19 quests at all.
And it cannot be good game design if you have quests almost no one plays because there is a big stumbling block in the way because of the game design.
And on the hardcore server, it is even worse, there you have no permission to take level 20 and take your level 20 reward even when you have technically enough experience for level 20 (you are not even short by a single experience point) unless you skip all remaining 16-19 quests and miss the favor for them.
This stumbling block makes no sense and is clearly bad game design and they should not remove it because I say it (with the might of my water soup :rolleyes:), it should be a matter of self-respect for the DDO developers to remove it!

[ReyalsNogard]

I agree, although ED does distort things a bit so I would be fine if they changed the lockout for level to 16-18 heroic quests to max level 20 and level 19 quests to max level 21 and the few heroic 20s to max level 22. Something that would prevent ED distorting difficulty too much. I would also be fine if they just made it max level 4 above for simplicity since it's unlikely to be abused as the rpx/min payout is still below running level 30 quests. It should definitely not be 6 levels above for those quests as ED adds too much.

This needs to be done for a smooth reaper leveling experience.

My biggest issue with hitting 20 has always been the whopping 1 level 20 quest and 2 level 20 raids to choose from.

[slarden]

My biggest issue with hitting 20 has always been the whopping 1 level 20 quest and 2 level 20 raids to choose from.

Those are the heroic quests which ironically can't be run on reaper mode @ 20, but there are also 8 epic level 20 quests - four in House D and four in House P.

[rabidfox]

Right, and I forgot to mention that another problem for not taking level 20 is that you are not able to gain experience for your epic levels (21+) and for this reason, only a small minority of players see currently any sense in playing level 18-19 quests at all.

Could you imagine if one could be level 19 and bank XP to just 1xp shy of level 21 without level 20 being a hardcap for that; that would be interesting, not that I need something like that but still.

[MasterDragonan]

Once you start to understand the op was level 20 you’ll be better able… lol who am I kidding no you won’t. Game’s trash now, devs are busy shifting goalposts so they can repackage and resell power they already sold.

This statement is so true. But, unfortunately, all developers are doing right now is nerfing us to resell it. New epic destiny trees are boring. Cores are super unfun. Dumb idea epic strike/epic mantle just radicular. They are also trying to turn eery ability into single target damage ability to slow us down, just wasting our time.

[Chacka_DDO]

Could you imagine if one could be level 19 and bank XP to just 1xp shy of level 21 without level 20 being a hardcap for that; that would be interesting, not that I need something like that but still.

Of course, I can imagine that but the point is that it is another reason for removing that unnecessary prohibition of level 20 characters in heroic quests (foremost this is senseless because a level 20 character is actually still heroic even if he is for strange reasons allowed to use EDs in DDO).
In my opinion, especially with the new EDs where you get only limited access in level 20 the +4 rule for heroic quests is completely adequate and a complete ban of heroic level 20 characters or even epic characters (21+) is not necessary.
This would provide a smooth transition and maybe it is a bit easier than to play these level 16-19 quests with a level 20-23 character but it is for sure not that easy that there is a real reason to completely forbid it!

But if you are allowed to store experience for epic levels (character level 21+) at level 19 this would of course better than what currently have even if the clearly better solution would be the removal of the ban rule (IMHO).

[Chacka_DDO]

Those are the heroic quests which ironically can't be run on reaper mode @ 20, but there are also 8 epic level 20 quests - four in House D and four in House P.

This has historical reasons, for a while the level cap was 20 and there was nothing epic in DDO and then the developers decided to give certain quests an epic difficulty (past elite) that was designed to provide a challenge for level 20 characters.
And for this reason, it was allowed to enter such quests with a level 20 character but this means not that this character is epic, epic levels were introduced with Menace of the Underdark expansion.

And again for historical reasons level, 20 characters were still allowed also in the new real epic quests and all quests who had before an epic difficulty for level 20 characters only became a real epic version.
But at the moment they introduced that they missed changing the nominal level of those old quests to 21 to make it consistent.

With Menace of the Underdark, they should have shifted the border for epic quests and characters to character level 21+ and quests with the nominal quest level 21+ but they were not brave enough to do that.

And as an additional result of that, they allowed players to use the newly introduced EDs at level 20, most likely because they thought it is a kind move to allow level 20 characters to use the EDs from the moment where they had the permission to enter epic quests.

All this is basically not really consistent and not ideal but SSG doesn't want to change that anyhow (maybe too much work or they cannot admit that they screwed it up) and they rather proclaim now level 20 is epic which makes logical not much sense.

But I still hope they think over it and make it better and even if it is still not ideal, the removal of the unnecessary ban of epic characters in heroic reaper quests would at least remove all disadvantages for the players.
The nominal level +4 level restriction is enough for a heroic quest IMHO also for level 16-19 quests.

But if you ask me for the best solution I would shift the Epic destinies to level 21 and maybe set a character back to level 21 after an ER and maybe introduce more heroic level 18-20 quests.

[Oxarhamar]

This has historical reasons, for a while the level cap was 20 and there was nothing epic in DDO and then the developers decided to give certain quests an epic difficulty (past elite) that was designed to provide a challenge for level 20 characters.
And for this reason, it was allowed to enter such quests with a level 20 character but this means not that this character is epic, epic levels were introduced with Menace of the Underdark expansion.

And again for historical reasons level, 20 characters were still allowed also in the new real epic quests and all quests who had before an epic difficulty for level 20 characters only became a real epic version.
But at the moment they introduced that they missed changing the nominal level of those old quests to 21 to make it consistent.

With Menace of the Underdark, they should have shifted the border for epic quests and characters to character level 21+ and quests with the nominal quest level 21+ but they were not brave enough to do that.

And as an additional result of that, they allowed players to use the newly introduced EDs at level 20, most likely because they thought it is a kind move to allow level 20 characters to use the EDs from the moment where they had the permission to enter epic quests.

All this is basically not really consistent and not ideal but SSG doesn't want to change that anyhow (maybe too much work or they cannot admit that they screwed it up) and they rather proclaim now level 20 is epic which makes logical not much sense.

But I still hope they think over it and make it better and even if it is still not ideal, the removal of the unnecessary ban of epic characters in heroic reaper quests would at least remove all disadvantages for the players.
The nominal level +4 level restriction is enough for a heroic quest IMHO also for level 16-19 quests.

But if you ask me for the best solution I would shift the Epic destinies to level 21 and maybe set a character back to level 21 after an ER and maybe introduce more heroic level 18-20 quests.

Obviously the ED rebalancing has shown that there are other problems with the system that need to be addressed now

[Chacka_DDO]

Obviously the ED rebalancing has shown that there are other problems with the system that need to be addressed now

In general, I'm very happy with the new EDs but everything can be better which doesn't mean that it is not good what we have, also the old EDs were fun for me.
I just hope the developers are willing to also do small changes and tweaks to further improve the EDs like the Turn Undead you get in Exalted Angle should scale with the character level similar to the Lay on Hands you get in US now which is very good (I think the scaling with the constitution is a bit too much)

[Oxarhamar]

In general, I'm very happy with the new EDs but everything can be better which doesn't mean that it is not good what we have, also the old EDs were fun for me.
I just hope the developers are willing to also do small changes and tweaks to further improve the EDs like the Turn Undead you get in Exalted Angle should scale with the character level similar to the Lay on Hands you get in US now which is very good (I think the scaling with the constitution is a bit too much)

I dont like them 100% but niether dod I like the old ones 100% each has problems but after the epic rebalance it really sjowed how off balance high level heroics are and removed the reason.for the epic lockout

[blarhblarhblarh]

Spoke it tons of times before the changes, players agreed, SSG still did it without listening to the players.


Also the epic leveling is not smoother or gives a bigger sense of scaling. We where still the weakest of epic at level 20 before but would set up mouse binds only once and would spend less time leveling and more time doing quests.

DDO is a great game but it´s hard to find logic on the developers choice. No one will be fired even if there is a server rollback, if the chat is broken, if they delete items that players paid for, if a gm disconects after receiving a /tell, if there is a reincarnation bug or if a 19 year old boy speaks terrible things about the game and the people who created the old EDs design that sustained DDO´s endgame for many years.

This last thing was on one of strimtons live. Unprofessional to say the least and in ANY other company of the world the involved staff would be fired right away. Or try it: go to youtube and start speaking bad things about the company you work and the clients to see if you will still have a job on the next day.

[shores11]

They also need to rescale the old 18/19 quests as the mobs have higher stats now than epic quest mobs. They feel really out of place post-u51.

https://i.imgur.com/V5s74sg.jpg

You're not comparing apples to apples here. Use the same monster in all three instances and I might be able to make a comment.

[Mindos]

or if a 19 year old boy speaks terrible things about the game and the people who created the old EDs design that sustained DDO´s endgame for many years.

This last thing was on one of strimtons live.

Link and timestamp?

[shores11]

To start I will agree that there is always some improvement that can be made on anything.

I disagree that the new epic system isn't better or smoother. I can't speak on behalf of the developers of DDO, but I can speak to my experience and perceptions.

1) Is the epic system more in line with how you advance in heroic than previously? YES, this is in part what makes it smoother.
2) Are epic enhancement points distributed closer to how they are done in heroic? YES, this is in part what makes it smoother.
3) Are there still some tweaks that could be done? Maybe, but I don't really know. I think we need to give this new system a good run to determine that. Don't hate the change just because it is a change.

Live long DDO.

[Oxarhamar]

To start I will agree that there is always some improvement that can be made on anything.

I disagree that the new epic system isn't better or smoother. I can't speak on behalf of the developers of DDO, but I can speak to my experience and perceptions.

1) Is the epic system more in line with how you advance in heroic than previously? YES, this is in part what makes it smoother.
2) Are epic enhancement points distributed closer to how they are done in heroic? YES, this is in part what makes it smoother.
3) Are there still some tweaks that could be done? Maybe, but I don't really know. I think we need to give this new system a good run to determine that. Don't hate the change just because it is a change.

Live long DDO.

Yeah the OP pointed out where it's not smoother where the progression is let's call it bumpy due to outdated mechanics that should have been changed with the update

Why players keep trying to minimize constructive criticism to hate of change without addressing the issues

Yes there are changes that could be made they have been identified already we don't really need mote time to find out there's issues

[Enoach]

The issue is the quest breakdown existed prior to the update.

I like the direction the new EDs are going, it places gear and leveling on a more balanced scale (not perfect, but better). I agree the problem that has always been there, is still a problem. Level 20 is considered Epic, but quests that are level 18/19 are pseudo-Epic (Elite levels are in the Epic level range). Their XP was not targeted toward epic leveling, but the issue is that if their XP was Epic Level it would make them high XP for the Heroic scene.

It is possible that these quests were not designed with the balance towards EDs. Since heroic level characters can enter these quests, if balanced with EDs it might make these quests very difficult to complete.

I personally think trying to rebalance would lead to more breakage.

A solution I think would be more helpful would be to add Saga paths to these quests - House C and IQ have enough quests to create such Sagas.

[Question2005]

You're not comparing apples to apples here. Use the same monster in all three instances and I might be able to make a comment.

This isnt tabletop D&D, the moment its a different quest, its a different monster even if they use the same name. There are inconsistencies all over the game, the skeletons in the first slave lord quest for example have way more hp than all other non-boss mobs in the chain IIRC, and the skeletons in the first deleras quest have much more hp anything else at that level.

The fact that level 18-19 quests in heroics are way harder than they should be is well known among players which is why the vast majority of players avoid them like the plague when leveling in heroics. There are far easier sources of xp.

[SoulDustar]

The fact that level 18-19 quests in heroics are way harder than they should be is well known among players which is why the vast majority of players avoid them like the plague when leveling in heroics.

Tell that to all the players on hardcore completing those quests on first lifers on elite.

[Oxarhamar]

Tell that to all the players on hardcore completing those quests on first lifers on elite.

No one said that the quests were impossible HCL is a different game where doing each quest for favor puts players in those quests

on regular servers thou rarely are they run because of the xp return to time investment & also the outdated lockout mechanism with enough xp in lower quests to bypass

They could use both a rebalance to come in line so monster hp goes from Heroics to Epics smoother & remove the lockout then players would be able to progress smoothly from Heroics to epic instead of jumping from lvl 16s to lvl 20s

[Oxarhamar]

Spoke it tons of times before the changes, players agreed, SSG still did it without listening to the players.


Also the epic leveling is not smoother or gives a bigger sense of scaling. We where still the weakest of epic at level 20 before but would set up mouse binds only once and would spend less time leveling and more time doing quests.

DDO is a great game but it´s hard to find logic on the developers choice. No one will be fired even if there is a server rollback, if the chat is broken, if they delete items that players paid for, if a gm disconects after receiving a /tell, if there is a reincarnation bug or if a 19 year old boy speaks terrible things about the game and the people who created the old EDs design that sustained DDO´s endgame for many years.

This last thing was on one of strimtons live. Unprofessional to say the least and in ANY other company of the world the involved staff would be fired right away. Or try it: go to youtube and start speaking bad things about the company you work and the clients to see if you will still have a job on the next day.

I stopped listening after it was said they abandoned publishing notes in favor of talking about it on the video

Releasing information on channels other than the DDO forum has been one of the more serious missteps that DDO staff continues to repeat


Discuss on video that's fine but the information should absolutely be publishing on the forums

[Oxarhamar]

Link and timestamp?

Link (no timestamp) maybe someone else can provide the timestamp because I can not listen to these videos I prefer to read information

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtj1qjq4VJg

[rabidfox]

Tell that to all the players on hardcore completing those quests on first lifers on elite.

I ran them on HC and got my 5k+ (anyone running 18/19 quests on elite on HC is at a whole different play level than a bunch of other DDO players) but that doesn't mean they're anything I'd run on live (outside of want ioun stones from dreaming dark or yugo favor to buy pots). Just because someone can beat them with RNG gear isn't the factor; I could beat old early epics without issue but they adjusted them with u51 because it was good for the health of the game/QoL, the same could be said for the 18/19 quests' mob scaling/reaper lockouts.

[Lynnabel]

I stopped listening after it was said they abandoned publishing notes in favor of talking about it on the video

Releasing information on channels other than the DDO forum has been one of the more serious missteps that DDO staff continues to repeat


Discuss on video that's fine but the information should absolutely be publishing on the forums

Potentially silly question, but are you referring to when we discussed forgoing show notes for the show in favor of using the game's official patch notes as the show notes for the show? We're definitely not planning on not publishing Patch Notes in the future. This is just an unofficial fun podcast-type production and shouldn't really be taken as an official sort of anything.

As far as level 18/19 quest scaling goes, its certainly possible we can take a look at where those monsters ended up in the future. It sounds like some of our stats ended up out of line given that level 20 was adjusted so severely. You all are correct that a level 19 monster being stronger than a level 20 monster is proooobably not ideal :)

[rabidfox]

As far as level 18/19 quest scaling goes, its certainly possible we can take a look at where those monsters ended up in the future. It sounds like some of our stats ended up out of line given that level 20 was adjusted so severely. You all are correct that a level 19 monster being stronger than a level 20 monster is proooobably not ideal :)

=)

[Weemadarthur]

Potentially silly question, but are you referring to when we discussed forgoing show notes for the show in favor of using the game's official patch notes as the show notes for the show? We're definitely not planning on not publishing Patch Notes in the future. This is just an unofficial fun podcast-type production and shouldn't really be taken as an official sort of anything.

As far as level 18/19 quest scaling goes, its certainly possible we can take a look at where those monsters ended up in the future. It sounds like some of our stats ended up out of line given that level 20 was adjusted so severely. You all are correct that a level 19 monster being stronger than a level 20 monster is proooobably not ideal :)

Just a quick question if you wouldn't mind. Pre U51 I could fully understand the epic lock out on heroic quests. Now that lockout does seem a little out of place and just there as a hangover from past times. Will you (as in the dev team not just you personally) be looking at removing those restrictions at any point? The level 20 lockout on heroics had a point when level 20 characters could have a full destiny worth of power behind them but now it seems a rather jarring break in progress rather than a natural progression.

[yfernbottom]

I stopped listening after it was said they abandoned publishing notes in favor of talking about it on the video

Releasing information on channels other than the DDO forum has been one of the more serious missteps that DDO staff continues to repeat


Discuss on video that's fine but the information should absolutely be publishing on the forums

If you have an audience that gets their news from a variety of sources, you mirror the important news in all of those outlets.

For example, in addition to a video, take the time to type up the major points and post it. Then distribute links to that post on the official forums, twitter, discord, and facebook. Don't pick one outlet completely at random every time and expect everyone to follow everything you might decide to use. You only have to type a short message with the link embedded in it once.

[MistaMagic]

You all are correct that a level 19 monster being stronger than a level 20 monster is proooobably not ideal :)

Nope but its fun to kill them :)

[Tebaco]

I disagree that the new epic system isn't better or smoother.

1) Is the epic system more in line with how you advance in heroic than previously? YES, this is in part what makes it smoother.
2) Are epic enhancement points distributed closer to how they are done in heroic? YES, this is in part what makes it smoother.


LOL
Are you serious man?
Those points really?

It is just visuals. GUI thing... It has nothing familiar with gameplay feel. You absolutely ignored hard facts that I described in original post.

So you have to actually play the game to get some feeling. I did played and well at level 20 there exist a gap. Gap of disruption of smoothness of usual game play style.
So for slow and ignorant people I will repeat.
At normal heroic gameplay you do quests at normal quest level +2 on reaper.
So for example: Lord of dust FTP quest you just play on some reaper difficulty (typically r1-r5) at maximum level of your party 18. (because LOD is normal quest level 16 +2 = 18)

But when you enhance to level 20 there will welcome you gap that telling you that something going differently. If you want to continue reaper questing you are forced to big disadvantage.
There exist only very old epic quests at normal level 20 that makes it quest level 22 on reaper.
But you are level 20 so if you can do math and not be ignorant or someone with dementia you will quickly realize that at level 20 you have been granted -2 levels starting point to your next questing.
Congratulations you are at heroic cap but next quests journey starting with such gap. If you don't see that and calling it that game is smooth please go and visit doctor that can help you.

I personally thought that epic destiny gating that they introduced have some intention to make game smooth. It is great why not. But why they are actually letting lvl normal quest levels 18 and 19 quests unavailable to enter lvl20 character on reaper. That would be smooth experience.

[Tebaco]

They could use both a rebalance to come in line so monster hp goes from Heroics to Epics smoother & remove the lockout then players would be able to progress smoothly from Heroics to epic instead of jumping from lvl 16s to lvl 20s

1.)
I personally wouldn't have problem if run those 18,19 quests on reaper with 20lvl character that any lower joined character (19,18,17,16) would suffer some xp penalty (maybe up to 50%) to be power leveled by character with ED.

2.)
I personally wouldn't have problem if they make those 18,19 quests harder and add some xp to it.

[Tebaco]

And I want add up one addition point.

Making lvl20 quests (at their normal level - so 22 on reaper or elite) easier isn't solution. Than you make such quest for 22 level character walk a park quests that I believe no-one want.

[thedip]

LOL
Are you serious man?
Those points really?

It is just visuals. GUI thing... It has nothing familiar with gameplay feel. You absolutely ignored hard facts that I described in original post.

So you have to actually play the game to get some feeling. I did played and well at level 20 there exist a gap. Gap of disruption of smoothness of usual game play style.
So for slow and ignorant people I will repeat.
At normal heroic gameplay you do quests at normal quest level +2 on reaper.
So for example: Lord of dust FTP quest you just play on some reaper difficulty (typically r1-r5) at maximum level of your party 18. (because LOD is normal quest level 16 +2 = 18)

But when you enhance to level 20 there will welcome you gap that telling you that something going differently. If you want to continue reaper questing you are forced to big disadvantage.
There exist only very old epic quests at normal level 20 that makes it quest level 22 on reaper.
But you are level 20 so if you can do math and not be ignorant or someone with dementia you will quickly realize that at level 20 you have been granted -2 levels starting point to your next questing.
Congratulations you are at heroic cap but next quests journey starting with such gap. If you don't see that and calling it that game is smooth please go and visit doctor that can help you.

I personally thought that epic destiny gating that they introduced have some intention to make game smooth. It is great why not. But why they are actually letting lvl normal quest levels 18 and 19 quests unavailable to enter lvl20 character on reaper. That would be smooth experience.

I find it particularly rude and unnecessary to liken a potential misunderstanding with having dementia! If you knew someone with the condition or the horrific effect it has on families maybe you wouldn't be so cavalier when using such terms.

[Wizard1406]

Why does it matter if you have to do quests of an adjusted level of 22 or 23 at lvl 20? Most lvl 20 and 21 epic quests are not hard after the changes, even at character lvl 20 and a group will have no problems with it on low reaper. Solo you might need to lower the difficulty.

Before the changes, even with full ED power at lvl 20, both epic reaper and epic elite was TOUGHER than now.

[Oxarhamar]

If you have an audience that gets their news from a variety of sources, you mirror the important news in all of those outlets.

For example, in addition to a video, take the time to type up the major points and post it. Then distribute links to that post on the official forums, twitter, discord, and facebook. Don't pick one outlet completely at random every time and expect everyone to follow everything you might decide to use. You only have to type a short message with the link embedded in it once.

I agree with that but that is not at all what's happening

[Oxarhamar]

Potentially silly question, but are you referring to when we discussed forgoing show notes for the show in favor of using the game's official patch notes as the show notes for the show? We're definitely not planning on not publishing Patch Notes in the future. This is just an unofficial fun podcast-type production and shouldn't really be taken as an official sort of anything.

As far as level 18/19 quest scaling goes, its certainly possible we can take a look at where those monsters ended up in the future. It sounds like some of our stats ended up out of line given that level 20 was adjusted so severely. You all are correct that a level 19 monster being stronger than a level 20 monster is proooobably not ideal :)

Where is that 70 page google doc you said you "gave up"?

[Chacka_DDO]

Potentially silly question, but are you referring to when we discussed forgoing show notes for the show in favor of using the game's official patch notes as the show notes for the show? We're definitely not planning on not publishing Patch Notes in the future. This is just an unofficial fun podcast-type production and shouldn't really be taken as an official sort of anything.

As far as level 18/19 quest scaling goes, its certainly possible we can take a look at where those monsters ended up in the future. It sounds like some of our stats ended up out of line given that level 20 was adjusted so severely. You all are correct that a level 19 monster being stronger than a level 20 monster is proooobably not ideal :)

The point is that this lockout from doing level 18 and 19 quests at level 20 makes logical no sense because such quests have an effective quest level of 20 and 21.
This is what many players don't comprehend (also you?) you can discuss all day long if it is too easy to do such quests with the new EDs or the old EDs this doesn't change the fact that it should be allowed to enter a quest that tells you the quest level is 20 or even 21 with a level 20 character!
And this, even more, when the monsters in such quests have challenge ratings (CR) who indicate that they are meant to be a challenge for level 30+ characters.

This all tells you basically that you have a LOT to do for game balance but the lockout is simply a band-aid for a broken balance system that needs an overhaul but the lockout itself is WRONG and MUST be removed!

And don't get me wrong I still play DDO and it is still fun for me but I'm not blind of love for DDO.

But if you want to hear my personal estimation/opinion I think you can simply remove the lockout and leave the rest as it is and this would better the situation

But in the long run, you will not be able to avoid fundamentally revising the game balance for example that the CR should actually mean that the monsters are designed to be a challenge for a character of the same level and that more difficulty means foremost that the monsters act smarter or use more "tricks" and not that they just only get unfair advantages or even immunities like orange-red or purple bosses.
This is all of course if you want to improve DDO and if you want it to be still there in 10,20 or even more years. (not to mention that DDO also needs on the long run a technical overhaul with either a new or improved game engine)

[Oxarhamar]

Why does it matter if you have to do quests of an adjusted level of 22 or 23 at lvl 20? Most lvl 20 and 21 epic quests are not hard after the changes, even at character lvl 20 and a group will have no problems with it on low reaper. Solo you might need to lower the difficulty.

Before the changes, even with full ED power at lvl 20, both epic reaper and epic elite was TOUGHER than now.

Because that is not a smooth progression from running heroic where it's overlevel to switch to running underlevel

[Tebaco]

I find it particularly rude and unnecessary to liken a potential misunderstanding with having dementia! If you knew someone with the condition or the horrific effect it has on families maybe you wouldn't be so cavalier when using such terms.

I am from Europe. So give me break and let me describe things in my way. We in Europe have still democracy and freedom.
If you want argue that if someone who can do math like 1+1 = 3 and isnt infant is not having dementia than ok. It is your way of seeing world.

[Tebaco]

Because that is not a smooth progression from running heroic where it's overlevel to switch to running underlevel

Not overlevel. I should say equal level.

[Lynnabel]

Where is that 70 page google doc you said you "gave up"?

Show notes for an unofficial podcast are not the official patch notes for the game. If you'd like to read the official patch notes, you can find them on ddo.com (https://www.ddo.com/en/game/release-notes) where they've always been :)

[Oxarhamar]

Show notes for an unofficial podcast are not the official patch notes for the game. If you'd like to read the official patch notes, you can find them on ddo.com (https://www.ddo.com/en/game/release-notes) where they've always been :)

Yeah at the onset of the video you speak of that's what I want to see

I stand by my long standing opinion that any Dev video content (even unofficial) should be accompanied by a transcript posted on the forums. Using other channels is fine but not cross-posting the information causes these situations where players have to dig up the information and bring it here like from discord.

[Oxarhamar]

Not overlevel. I should say equal level.

Yeah if you are running elite 16 at 18 but it's possible to run 4 levels over on R until level 17 then in epics you start underlevel

[Enderoc]

In the book of Goblinus
Chapter 9
Verse 7
It plainly states
"Thou shalt not Newb, neither shall ye suffer a piker to live, but thou must bringeth upon him all aggro from several rooms, and laggeth him unto death once the mass holds runneth out... Amen"

The Great DM told us specifically...that we must not be newbs and search our packs dilligently for things that may help us

[Wizard1406]

Because that is not a smooth progression from running heroic where it's overlevel to switch to running underlevel

Ah ok now I understand, for example, if someone wants to maximize their favor and first time xp. Sure, making lvl 18/19 quests doable on reaper at 20+ still, would be a good change.

For me personally the quest base level doesn't matter much, if it gives good xp and is easy enough to do, I do it and go in underlevel. In heroics very often, doing chain quests in one go (and I think that the most difficult quest in a chain is often not the highest level quest, see Mad Tea Party, Just Business etc.)

[Oxarhamar]

Ah ok now I understand, for example, if someone wants to maximize their favor and first time xp. Sure, making lvl 18/19 quests doable on reaper at 20+ still, would be a good change.

For me personally the quest base level doesn't matter much, if it gives good xp and is easy enough to do, I do it and go in underlevel. In heroics very often, doing chain quests in one go (and I think that the most difficult quest in a chain is often not the highest level quest, see Mad Tea Party, Just Business etc.)

Thanks for adding that

[Chacka_DDO]

Ah ok now I understand, for example, if someone wants to maximize their favor and first time xp. Sure, making lvl 18/19 quests doable on reaper at 20+ still, would be a good change.

For me personally the quest base level doesn't matter much, if it gives good xp and is easy enough to do, I do it and go in underlevel. In heroics very often, doing chain quests in one go (and I think that the most difficult quest in a chain is often not the highest level quest, see Mad Tea Party, Just Business etc.)

For me, it is not only important to maximize my favor and reaper experience, for me it is also important to PLAY if possible all quests in DDO and I want to do that at least on reaper 1 if any possible.
Currently, you are forced to do that at level 19 and this means not only that you are not allowed to use your heroic level 20 capstone enhancement, you also have ZERO experience gain for your first epic level.
I was even ok with that problem by the way until we got the first hardcore season and there it was even forbidden to do such quests on elite with a level 20 character and then it started to get absurd (not going into details at this point).

Some other thoughts...

Notice that most of the level 17-19 quests (there are only one natural level 20 quests and two raids in DDO) were originally intended to be played by level 20 characters.
It was the design decision of the DDO developers to give level 20 characters EDs with the introduction of the first epic character levels in DDO (21-25) most likely with the reason that level 20 characters are allowed to play epic quests but the result cannot be to suddenly not allow level 20 characters to play level 16-19 quests in ANY difficulty.

The design goal should be to make it possible to play these quests with a level 20 character and NOT to make it easier to play them with a level 19 character (Lynnabel sounds like that).

And yet again, YES it is easier to play such quests than before the times we had EDs, even on reaper but it is NOT that easy that it should be forbidden to play them with a level 20+ character, even less because a level 20 character is per logic HEROIC!
I'm perfectly fine if the developers increase the difficulty for such quests if they think it is necessary or if they nerf the characters (for example suspend EDs if you enter a heroic quest) but the goal has to be that it is possible to play such quests with a level nominal quest level +4 character on ANY difficulty!
(It is also OK if they lower the character level to the nominal quest level +2 for the reaper difficulty in general but this is the logical limit)

I'm perfectly fine if quests get the best reward if you play them at the nominal level (the level you see in the adventure compendium) +2 because this is the effective quest level and THIS should be the level with the best reward because the quest should be designed and intended to be played by a character of that level.
This is a matter of logic, the same as a monster with a CR20 should be intended to be fought by a level 20 character because this is exactly what CR20 means (Challange Rating).

And this is also one reason why I say that DDO needs basically a fundamental balance overhaul but it would be way too much at this point to point out why and how I think the devs should do it.

[Enderoc]

The DM is a stone, I shall not want, he leadeth me in circles in dingy dungeons, and layeth me besides still burning fields of lava...lo though I wander through the valley looking for the stupid thing I must have missed, he shall bring no comfort but instead confuse me further in the overabundance of his hypnotic narrative in screen actors voice

DM he hates newbs and children
All the Children missing from his world
We have journeyed far and wide
The only Children are those that died
Keeping them undead in the hands of one lonely creepy girl

I mean she might be halfling being just outside Jorasco ...its just no one has the courage to ask we just assume and get the frack out of Cadillac. Living kids are freaky in a world without any...she can keep her book.

Between Delera and Duality she could be the flame incarnate but who is going to take that chance?
I mean if you think a spider queen is bad , fire is not always a good thing you know...possibly far worse than spiders...like way worse. Like engulf the world in flames worse...

So just stay away and keep singing our hymns to DM the Ever Neutral...so that he mayest not ever be swayed

[Cantor]

Well, here we go again with more baseless accusations about "lies" from the developers that are not based on any actual game reality. How do I know? Because I just did it; on hardcore, with a first-life character, no legacy gear, using a ML10 Barovian weapon, and basic destiny points. If my character was able to accomplish running L21 Eveningstar quests at L21 when I have no margin for error how can it be so onerous for your character who can die however many times you want?

Before getting frustrated and typing something out on the forums perhaps ask for some help first when choosing your EDs. There is a lot of power unlocked from L21 to 23. 23 for example, gives you second ED cores. Once you start to understand the ED system you'll better be able to make constructive commentary about it.

Maybe the way he went about posting was, hmmm, less than diplomatic, but the level 20 lock out is ready to go.

I just did the werewolf quest on HC and we were like man these have a lot of hp, but to see how many, lol.

[Jerevth]

While it is nice to have the option available, the work-around of setting up sagas prior to an ETR only underscores the problem with level 20-23+ (~25 with xp pots) just to get what many (some?) consider a viable epic build.

Slayer counts don't reset which slows things down significantly after the third ETR.
I think a fresh restart of slayers would help considerably though I can see some folks leaving a couple kills to trip the last XP reward in addition to the sagas- but that only works once.

[Oxarhamar]

While it is nice to have the option available, the work-around of setting up sagas prior to an ETR only underscores the problem with level 20-23+ (~25 with xp pots) just to get what many (some?) consider a viable epic build.

Slayer counts don't reset which slows things down significantly after the third ETR.
I think a fresh restart of slayers would help considerably though I can see some folks leaving a couple kills to trip the last XP reward in addition to the sagas- but that only works once.

Thank you

I have been saying this every time a player offers a workaround it only provides confirmation that the problem exists by thier own suggestions on how to aviod it

+1 (must spread around)

[SoulDustar]

No one said that the quests were impossible HCL is a different game where doing each quest for favor puts players in those quests

on regular servers thou rarely are they run because of the xp return to time investment & also the outdated lockout mechanism with enough xp in lower quests to bypass

They could use both a rebalance to come in line so monster hp goes from Heroics to Epics smoother & remove the lockout then players would be able to progress smoothly from Heroics to epic instead of jumping from lvl 16s to lvl 20s

The fact is you don't need to run anything past level 16 to cap 20 at this point I guess if you want to re balance maybe the xp should be reduced in heroics to make those quests needed vs ignored by the masses.



The fact that level 18-19 quests in heroics are way harder than they should be is well known among players which is why the vast majority of players avoid them like the plague when leveling in heroics.

If you read the post I replied to you will see the opinion that these quests are to hard to complete that the vast majority of players which they could not possibly have any idea about ( save their own personal opinion and experience which certainly does not speak for the vast majority of players as they claim ) and nothing about xp these are completed regularly on hardcore on first life characters with a lot of garbage gear and not dying so how is it they are hard. Oh that's right they are not hard they just want easier mode isn't that what hard normal and casual are for.

If SSG did not cave into easy mode and left reaper at normal +2 instead of elite +2 level 18 and 19 would not have lock outs and then SSG could have moved the three heroic quests to epic even tho you can already run those after taking 20 and reaper would not be an issue. But after all easier is better just put a QoL in there and it does wonders.


I ran them on HC and got my 5k+ (anyone running 18/19 quests on elite on HC is at a whole different play level than a bunch of other DDO players) but that doesn't mean they're anything I'd run on live (outside of want ioun stones from dreaming dark or yugo favor to buy pots). Just because someone can beat them with RNG gear isn't the factor; I could beat old early epics without issue but they adjusted them with u51 because it was good for the health of the game/QoL, the same could be said for the 18/19 quests' mob scaling/reaper lockouts.

So what you are saying is that the yourself and others are superior to a bunch of other DDO players ( noobs ) I guess is the word you were looking for. I am sure plenty of less experienced players have run those off just fine in on first lifers with RNG gear just like I did and yet here set the old timers saying its to hard make it easier give us another concession ( oh wait its for the noobs not the whole different play level crowd ) QoL and all right.

Going into most any quest on a first lifer running around like a chicken with your head cut off will most times end up in a poor result that has nothing to do with difficultly or quest level on hardcore or live that has to do with quest knowledge, game mechanics, and a group effort to avoid those pit falls. There are plenty of quests, challenges, let alone optionals to avoid on hardcore or live that don't drop useful loot, give garbage xp, and are a waste of time unless it's for favor.


I have noticed that most of these types of threads to help the new players out the QoL are started and commented on by veteran players advocating for new players that must not have any ability to come to the forums and start a thread or communicate any ideas for themselves. Good thing we got the Vets to make sure the new players are getting all the QoL they need and are asking for in droves.

[Certon]

So i did it,
I TRed.

Now I am sitting at lvl20.
What are my options?
Basicaly i would continue doing 18lvl quests on reaper that make it 20lvl quests.
But here is 1st downside, you cant enter thouse dungeons on reaper, only on elite.

So does this feel like smooth transitions - NO!.

Also now we have gated epic abilities so additional power at lvl20 from epic destinies almost equal to 0.

So option number 2:
Run lvl 20 quests on reaper that makes it lvl22 quests. Is that smooth? - NO!.


And another thing to address is that if you open group panel with listed quests there isnt really support for epic versions of heroic quests.
So you have to open Adventure Compendium panel and sort there adventures by epic level. That way you able to see what quests at lvl20 you can to run.

Slayers after all seems like most easy choise to do.

My advice in the end is, if you've saved up DDO points from favor, get a 6 hour 50% xp pot and run level 18 and 19 quests on elite. The Stormhorns chain can get you to 21 easy, and if you've been running all the quests in Eveningstar up to that point, it will also unlock a couple saga rewards to get you halfway to 22.

It's not an elegant fix, but it will help you get through the doldrums right quick.

I did the very thing I suggested, and I actually got to 28 before my 6 hour pot wore off because I got a reaper group that blasted through a bunch of R1 and R2 content after that....

[rabidfox]

So what you are saying is that the yourself and others are superior to a bunch of other DDO players ( noobs ) I guess is the word you were looking for. I am sure plenty of less experienced players have run those off just fine in on first lifers with RNG gear just like I did and yet here set the old timers saying its to hard make it easier give us another concession ( oh wait its for the noobs not the whole different play level crowd ) QoL and all right.

What? Don't go around calling other player noobs and acting like it was something I said; I said whole different play level not skill level. Using HC people doing 18/19 quests is poor example of desire/purpose to run them on live; it's not a viable example of what the average player base does outside HC.

Reaper lockouts from running 18/19's when level 20+, not being able to bank epic XP while level 19 so one typically goes from 18 to 20 without taking 19, scaling of some 18/19 quests with higher stats than lvl 21 epics being outliers post u51 epic changes, etc. are all reasons why they're not run often and all things that could make them more viable on live. And these have nothing to do with new players, this is entirely reasons why I don't run them on live.

[Oxarhamar]

The fact is you don't need to run anything past level 16 to cap 20 at this point I guess if you want to re balance maybe the xp should be reduced in heroics to make those quests needed vs ignored by the masses.


s.

Well you identified the problem but thats some corrupt a wish solution

it is a good thing that heriocs have enoufh xp that every quest doesnt need to be run each life & you know what there is a whole seperate Server where that is the idea ;)

Not signed

What was being asked for was to all those herioc quests on early Epic and remove the lockout

[Seph1roth5]

I like a lot of the new stuff in EDs, but still have a major issue with the power level on some of the enhancements. Many feel weaker than heroic. But looks like that's what the devs want so nothing I can do there.

My main issue with the smooth progression is that, on many of my characters, leveling just isn't exciting anymore because they tried too hard to make EDs have something for everyone. That sounds good on paper, but that means that many of my guys are just throwing points away to get to higher tiers.

Pretty sure every guy I've taken from 20-30 (maybe 6-7x since the update) has hit 30 and then gone "ah **** I need to spend 5 more points..."

[Oxarhamar]

I like a lot of the new stuff in EDs, but still have a major issue with the power level on some of the enhancements. Many feel weaker than heroic. But looks like that's what the devs want so nothing I can do there.

My main issue with the smooth progression is that, on many of my characters, leveling just isn't exciting anymore because they tried too hard to make EDs have something for everyone. That sounds good on paper, but that means that many of my guys are just throwing points away to get to higher tiers.

Pretty sure every guy I've taken from 20-30 (maybe 6-7x since the update) has hit 30 and then gone "ah **** I need to spend 5 more points..."

Yep a good design would you having to choose between things you want not spending points just to unlock higher tier

[TFerguson]

I've not re-levelled a caster so I cannot comment on that. But the levelling experience with both a melee and an archer in epics was an absolute joy. Mid-R epics might be my new favorite thing, it's even more fun that end-game high-Rs.

High-Reaper end game is where the systems's broken now, not levelling.

[Chacka_DDO]

Yep a good design would you having to choose between things you want not spending points just to unlock higher tier

The new EDs is full of cool ideas (IMHO) but some things are not good like I want an Illusionist with mass PK (Weird) but to get that I feel forced to take a lot of things that are complete nonsense for such a build and others seemingly are not working at all (Bring Darkness).

Or another example is they give you Turn Undead (something that is hard to make work even for a pure cleric with past lives) in EA and then it scales with your paladin level then I cannot else than think wait, WHAT?
And maybe it was another developer who did that, in Unyielding Sentinel they made it exactly right, now you can get Lay on Hands and it scales with the character level, exactly like it should be but they overdo it (IMHO) by making it based on constitution if this score is higher and it leaves the question why the original paladin Lay on Hands scales with the paladin level :confused:

I just hope that the developers are willing to do changes also based on player feedback and have the attitude to take player feedback as a most welcome help for improving DDO.

[LightBear]

Just a quick question if you wouldn't mind. Pre U51 I could fully understand the epic lock out on heroic quests. Now that lockout does seem a little out of place and just there as a hangover from past times. Will you (as in the dev team not just you personally) be looking at removing those restrictions at any point? The level 20 lockout on heroics had a point when level 20 characters could have a full destiny worth of power behind them but now it seems a rather jarring break in progress rather than a natural progression.

I'd like the hard restriction be removed both ways.
As a level 19 character I want to be able to join a level 20, 21 quest on r1.

I just tested if it was doable by running under geared and no destiny points spend on a level 20 quest as a level 20 character.
thus kinda mimicing a level 19 character.
Wasn't ideal (I only had level 5 gear on and not spend that many reaper points) but running with a full group it was totally doable.

[Jaxtan]

I'd like the hard restriction be removed both ways.
As a level 19 character I want to be able to join a level 20, 21 quest on r1.

I just tested if it was doable by running under geared and no destiny points spend on a level 20 quest as a level 20 character.
thus kinda mimicing a level 19 character.
Wasn't ideal (I only had level 5 gear on and not spend that many reaper points) but running with a full group it was totally doable.

That would be awesome! Truly seamless transition with more grouping opportunities. Same rules for power leveling could apply to keep the heroic character from grouping with high level characters without major xp penalties.

[Chacka_DDO]

I'd like the hard restriction be removed both ways.
As a level 19 character I want to be able to join a level 20, 21 quest on r1.

I just tested if it was doable by running under geared and no destiny points spend on a level 20 quest as a level 20 character.
thus kinda mimicing a level 19 character.
Wasn't ideal (I only had level 5 gear on and not spend that many reaper points) but running with a full group it was totally doable.

The problem here is that there is a special rule for most epic quests if your character is 20+ you are allowed to enter the quest no matter if the quest is level 20 or 34 and higher-level means MUCH more experience points because you need much more experience to level from 29 to 30 than from 20 to 21.
Therefore you cannot shift that border without a fundamental change or you make it most efficient for a level 19 character to try to get into a level 30 group for one quest to get level 20.
I think the current system is more or less working and has out of my sight the only real flaw that level 19 is a hard border for doing level 16-19 quests (reaper) and yet again that border is set because you are allowed to use your EDs at level 20 even if this is now not the whole ED.
And this has a historical reason, it was once allowed to do epic quests with a level 20 character and then the developers gave EDs to level 20 characters because of that and this shifted the border technically to level 20 but this was a mistake also because there is a super hard exp cap for your heroic character experience pool at level 20.
Yet again, the best solution (IMHO) would be that you get your EDs at level 21 where the border should be and after an ER you are set back to level 21 (your character should be still epic after an ER) in the same way as you are set back to level 1 and not level 0 after a TR (to be accurate you just don't need exp for level 1 at all).
We have basically already now enough quests to get level 21 only doing heroic quests but to make that even easier you can also lower the exp for LVL 21 or increase the experience for level 18-19 quests or add more nominal/natural level 20 quests.
The question is if you retain the permission for level 20 characters to enter almost all epic/legendary quests.

[dunklezhan]

As far as level 18/19 quest scaling goes, its certainly possible we can take a look at where those monsters ended up in the future. It sounds like some of our stats ended up out of line given that level 20 was adjusted so severely. You all are correct that a level 19 monster being stronger than a level 20 monster is proooobably not ideal :)

Many thanks.

[Lurien1]

I'm relatively new to the game, and haven't tried the new epic destinies, but I don't see how they can possibly improve over the previous one (the one with karma) was AMAZING.

So, if you outdid yourselves, I'll be shocked.

With that said, and against OP: I liked (Again, as a very new player) the ridiculous power spike I got at 20 the last time I got there during the previous ED part, and loved that until I learned a bit more, I couldn't solo ANY epic elites, not even impossible demands or BoB.

So yah. It's impossible to please everyone. I like weird spikes when going from hero to legend. But that could change when I have 3,000 hours in the game.

[Drfirewater79]

I ran into the same dilemma. Level 18-19 quests might as well not exist. The XP is ridiculously low. The Kobolds new ringleader, a level 2 quest, will net you nearly as much as level 18 quests.

Just pop on over to epics. Run them on elite or hard until you're leveled up enough to go back for reaper.

Still there are even some quests and chains that would benefit greatly from adding epic/legendary and Reaper difficulties .... Amarath is a great example and same with meridia slayer and quests (we have legendary shroud we should have at least epic meridia) desert slayer should also have an epic difficulty version as well.

of course we always like to hear more content will solve everything ... sometimes re-skinning old quests with new difficulties and gear will make people happy too.

[Chacka_DDO]

Still there are even some quests and chains that would benefit greatly from adding epic/legendary and Reaper difficulties .... Amarath is a great example and same with meridia slayer and quests (we have legendary shroud we should have at least epic meridia) desert slayer should also have an epic difficulty version as well.

of course we always like to hear more content will solve everything ... sometimes re-skinning old quests with new difficulties and gear will make people happy too.

I had once the idea we could even have a quest with 3 versions (heroic epic and legendary) but meanwhile, I think it would be better if quests have only one version because it is a bit odd that you enter basically exactly the same place with the same monsters just only with a different character level.
An even more radical solution would be to have all quests for all character levels (because the monsters scale with the character level)
But again unlike for the items, I would like to see quests designed to do at a specific character level and also for the abilities a character has at that level.

The only exceptions are raids (IMHO) raiding should be something you do at the level cap and for that reason, ALL raid should have ONE version you do at the level cap (and if the level cap increases the raid has to change to that cap which should mostly only a scaling of the monsters)
And of course, you should be able to get items in that raid you can also use after a true reincarnation (aka HTR RTR ITR) just with less power because the items scale with your character level.

[Oxarhamar]

I had once the idea we could even have a quest with 3 versions (heroic epic and legendary) but meanwhile, I think it would be better if quests have only one version because it is a bit odd that you enter basically exactly the same place with the same monsters just only with a different character level.
An even more radical solution would be to have all quests for all character levels (because the monsters scale with the character level)
But again unlike for the items, I would like to see quests designed to do at a specific character level and also for the abilities a character has at that level.

The only exceptions are raids (IMHO) raiding should be something you do at the level cap and for that reason, ALL raid should have ONE version you do at the level cap (and if the level cap increases the raid has to change to that cap which should mostly only a scaling of the monsters)
And of course, you should be able to get items in that raid you can also use after a true reincarnation (aka HTR RTR ITR) just with less power because the items scale with your character level.

Id like to see more quests maps get alternate quests in them

I too am tired or Herioc & Epic bring same quest with maybe slightly different end fight

Just take the map and give us new story on same map PnP modules did this with alternate storys using the same map


I LIKE Haunted Halls but I think it could have had multiple quests not just standard & extended

[Weemadarthur]

Id like to see more quests maps get alternate quests in them

I too am tired or Herioc & Epic bring same quest with maybe slightly different end fight

Just take the map and give us new story on same map PnP modules did this with alternate storys using the same map


I LIKE Haunted Halls but I think it could have had multiple quests not just standard & extended

What I would like to see is more content like HIPS or Invaders where we revisit old maps that we have run before but with different routes, orientation and monster types. I like the familiarity contrasting with the changes in both those quests.

Think of going back to tangleroot but one where the last of Whisperdooms spawn has taken over. She has become such an horrific presence that the hobgoblins have collapsed parts of their cave system and are looking at summoning rituals to bring forth extra planar creatures to combat her with. We then get to try and work a way through the old map but with whole sections collapsed and new sections opened by burrowing spiders. Extra planar creatures abound and as we get closer to the main fortress we get caught up in the middle of an epic 3 way battle between the arachnid menace, the hobgoblins defending their home and the summoned extra planar creatures that have escaped control and are trying to make a bridgehead into our plane of reality.

[Aelonwy]

Id like to see more quests maps get alternate quests in them

Just take the map and give us new story on same map PnP modules did this with alternate storys using the same map



What I would like to see is more content like HIPS or Invaders where we revisit old maps that we have run before but with different routes, orientation and monster types. I like the familiarity contrasting with the changes in both those quests.


This^ and this^. That plus revisiting NPCs with continuous stories is very engaging such as was used in Disciples of Rage series. Also part of what makes Night Revels fun (for me at least) is seeing a repurposed dungeon with a new story and getting to see or use rooms or hallways that weren't in the original quest or were inaccessible in the original quest is exciting. But for me personally, they are over-using quest-givers teleporting us directly into the quest. It makes some sense where going on the quest represents traveling some distance outside Stormreach (although I much prefer clicking on a wagon or caravan to represent that sense of travel) but for the quests that take place within Stormreach it would be nice to see where in the city they are located with physical travel. For instance the new quest Dread Sea Scrolls looks like it takes place in some portion of the harbor or maybe between the harbor and the Inspired Quarter but because we're teleported directly inside the quest it looses any sense of physical substantiality. Unlike for instance the Saltire District which because we have a gate in the harbor to it we have an understanding of where in Stormreach it is located.

For myself, I wish they would make a handful of quests that use the structure of the city areas in conjunction with quest interiors to fully ground the interconnection of city locales while at the same time crafting a story that demonstrates our influence on Stormreach and its citizens. The best example of this is Chronoscope (still my favorite raid because of the awesome storytelling and epic ending) which utilizes both Marketplace exteriors and locales and the interior of the Steam tunnels which is a mini-wilderness zone. So if for instance we had an over-arching harbor based quest using the harbor exterior but also some of the previous interior quest locations in whole or in part or better yet showing where and how the harbor connects to the Night Market or the Dread Sea Scrolls quest it would for me really flesh out the immersion of Stormreach.

[Bjond]

Slayers after all seems like most easy choise to do.
Slayers, EE, EH, or even EN are all options that work to get the character to L21~23. I *just* hit L20 fir the first time on a new character (HCL) and really only L20 was an issue. By L21, my character could easily solo EE. By 22, it was soloing R1. This is an HCL character, too. No tomes. No PL feats. Bad gear.

The difference between the new ED system and the old one is the transition bump @ L20 happens EVERY TIME you hit L20 rather than ONLY ONCE, the first time you hit L20 before you unlock and fill an EDs. How often you run through L20 on a character is a personal taste or play-style issue.

Hitting L20 is very rare for me. I level to 30 then cycle ETRs. On ETR, my character is instantly L23~25 from banked sagas. I avoid heroics as much as possible. They're too easy and you spend your entire time NOT playing the build you want to play. The key features of the new EDs seem to be low enough that there's very little missing @ L23; ie. L20~23 was frustrating on my HCL character because it lacked the features it was built to use. After L23, I'd often forget to drop points into EDs and just do that on levelup -- kinda shows I wasn't badly missing or wanting to buy new features -- more of a smooth powerup from L23 on up than L20->L23.

So, I suppose I agree somewhat with OP. If the new EDs started able to use L23'ish features it would have a smoother transition. And, somewhat disagree that it's much of an issue, since L20 happens very very rarely in my play.

[Oxarhamar]

Slayers, EE, EH, or even EN are all options that work to get the character to L21~23. I *just* hit L20 fir the first time on a new character (HCL) and really only L20 was an issue. By L21, my character could easily solo EE. By 22, it was soloing R1. This is an HCL character, too. No tomes. No PL feats. Bad gear.

The difference between the new ED system and the old one is the transition bump @ L20 happens EVERY TIME you hit L20 rather than ONLY ONCE, the first time you hit L20 before you unlock and fill an EDs. How often you run through L20 on a character is a personal taste or play-style issue.

Hitting L20 is very rare for me. I level to 30 then cycle ETRs. On ETR, my character is instantly L23~25 from banked sagas. I avoid heroics as much as possible. They're too easy and you spend your entire time NOT playing the build you want to play. The key features of the new EDs seem to be low enough that there's very little missing @ L23; ie. L20~23 was frustrating on my HCL character because it lacked the features it was built to use. After L23, I'd often forget to drop points into EDs and just do that on levelup -- kinda shows I wasn't badly missing or wanting to buy new features -- more of a smooth powerup from L23 on up than L20->L23.

So, I suppose I agree somewhat with OP. If the new EDs started able to use L23'ish features it would have a smoother transition. And, somewhat disagree that it's much of an issue, since L20 happens very very rarely in my play.


I agree giving lvl 23 benifits at 20 would smooth things a bit as well I believe lbl 30 stuff should be brought down to lvl 28

Currently lvl 30 stuff only coming at 30 is nothing like heroic trwes which tier 5 comes sooner with more points to fill later

Only having tier 5 at 30 makes tier 5 not even a factor in leveling

Move the whole tier system down 2 levels