What are the new DC requirements for no fail LE?

[krimsonrane]

Fort, reflex, and will? What numbers do I need to attain now?

[Ultinoob]

Fort, reflex, and will? What numbers do I need to attain now?

I did a test after update 50.3 but before the next one. Maybe you can use that. I tested it on sharn archers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VExw7HF1n4A&t=53s

Here are the results.

Reflex saves 98

Fort save 107

Don't have any results for will save...

[krimsonrane]

I did a test after update 50.3 but before the next one. Maybe you can use that. I tested it on sharn archers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VExw7HF1n4A&t=53s

Here are the results.

Reflex saves 98

Fort save 107

Don't have any results for will save...

Wow. I can barely get to a 70 on either.

[voxson5]

Wow. I can barely get to a 70 on either.

What kind of caster are you playing? DC's are normally just gear & grind.

Let's see if I can make a workable 1st life human sorc - might help out with what you may not yet be using?

18 casting stat
7 level ups
14 caster artifact (eg regalport)
6 insightful (eg shattered onyx)
3 quality (eg slavers crafting)
2 main enhancement tree
2 secondary enhancement tree
2 rem. potion
2 yugo potion
2 guildship
2 festive aug
2 savant capstone
2 profane (various items or epic litany aug)
5 tome (5k favour or raid drop)
1 Human tree
1 exceptional (globe of true imperial blood aug)
--
71 casting stat (+30 mod)

19 heightened spell level
9 caster ED (cores + spell school + t5)
2 quality from caster artifact (regalport etc)
2 sacred from gloryborn gloves
2 profane from shattered onyx etc
2 greater evocation aug from gianthold vendors
3 artifact from 2 pc magewrite or 3 pc caster set or 6 pc autumn set
6 equipment from spell focus item (eg lv 30 cannith crafted googles or trinket etc)
3 insightful from insightful spell focus item (eg lv 30 cannith crafted googles or scarlet scale cloak etc)
1 Savant t5
4 scion of plane of fire
--
53
--
83 so far

Add in lots of filigree, spell focus feats, embolden feat, reaper bonuses, different race, paid stuff like +8 tome, and probably things I forgot to add..

Go further with wiz & sorcerer past lives, racial & class completionist

[Ultinoob]

Michele did a dc caster druid found here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/524630-DeathTitan-DC-caster-druid

It has a nice breakdown of how to accomplish 126 earthquake dc. Not sure if you are wisdom based but the breakdown is really nice.

Also i believe he/she has obtained very close to if not the highest possible druid evocation dc.

[drathdragon]

so **** tired of abbreviations ..

every
damned
time

(in game chat)
''hey wanna join LOEE ?''
(and me: 'what the hell is LOEE ?'.. *opening wikiddo to quickly remind me what is it)
''..yes because i have MRR and PRR at max and i suggest you to do the same''
'' ..excuse me, how much is your DC ? just because in LOD you need at least X+5''

..and so, on and on every day a new abbreviation ..is a quest or a feat, if not any of these two
you are in trouble 'cause you must imagine hard what is it.

[Wizard1406]

[...]

--
83 so far

Add in lots of filigree, spell focus feats, embolden feat, reaper bonuses, different race, paid stuff like +8 tome, and probably things I forgot to add..

Go further with wiz & sorcerer past lives, racial & class completionist


Doesn't filligree only give 6 maximum ( 2x +2DC set bonus and if you manage to fit in 4 main stat filigree)? 2 spell focus, 2 embolden; reaper bonus doesn't work on LE

So a first lifer (without paid race & paid tome) could absolute min/max for only ~93 and it's a huge amount of grind to get all the items and you'll sacrifize spellpower and especially survivability by having to prioritize DC items at all costs.

Shouldn't elite mob spell saves be more accessible for casters? It's only difficulty 4 out of 14. (naming was done in a time when it was indeed the highest difficulty, so "elite" is a bit misleading nowadays).

I think mob spell saves are too high. Or maybe it's time to change enemy spell saves, in a way like to hit ratio was chanced way back. A percentage chance instead of D20 which only supports a functional range of 20 DC, when players nowadays can vary 40+ points in DCs.

Newish Melee / ranged player doesn't miss a highly armored mob on any roll but a 20 like a caster with <80 DC would miss a high reflex mob. (more like glancing blows on rolls of 5 or so)


The workaround is using spells where evasion doesn't work, but it makes some specs basically unplayable, as all or almost all of their spells have a reflex save for evasion (ex. lightning sorcerer).

[voxson5]

Doesn't filligree only give 6 maximum ( 2x +2DC set bonus and if you manage to fit in 4 main stat filigree)? 2 spell focus, 2 embolden; reaper bonus doesn't work on LE

So a first lifer (without paid race & paid tome) could absolute min/max for only ~93 and it's a huge amount of grind to get all the items and you'll sacrifize spellpower and especially survivability by having to prioritize DC items at all costs.

Shouldn't elite mob spell saves be more accessible for casters? It's only difficulty 4 out of 14. (naming was done in a time when it was indeed the highest difficulty, so "elite" is a bit misleading nowadays).

I think mob spell saves are too high. Or maybe it's time to change enemy spell saves, in a way like to hit ratio was chanced way back. A percentage chance instead of D20 which only supports a functional range of 20 DC, when players nowadays can vary 40+ points in DCs.

Newish Melee / ranged player doesn't miss a highly armored mob on any roll but a 20 like a caster with <80 DC would miss a high reflex mob. (more like glancing blows on rolls of 5 or so)


The workaround is using spells where evasion doesn't work, but it makes some specs basically unplayable, as all or almost all of their spells have a reflex save for evasion (ex. lightning sorcerer).

Filigree - 3 artifact (2x different raid stat + 1 otto or eye stat) + 9 weapon (same as artifact + 2 different otto/eye + 4 of the other set), this is not a maxed out weapon or using a perfected artifact

3 spell focus (inc. epic spell focus), reaper cores apply outside of reaper so may include +1 caster stat.

Also doesn't include using debuffs, such as hypnotism to reduce will saves, hold to strip evasion and so forth. Solid fog (at choke points) is +5 effective DC on anything with a reflex save by itself!

Almost every monster will have at least one weak save players can target as well - gotta learn to use all of the toolkit, not just the meteorswarm sledge hammer.

But yes, lots of grind for maybe workable, however the design may be that endgame elite might not be suitable for a first lifer.

[Wizard1406]

Filigree - 3 artifact (2x different raid stat + 1 otto or eye stat) + 9 weapon (same as artifact + 2 different otto/eye + 4 of the other set), this is not a maxed out weapon or using a perfected artifact

3 spell focus (inc. epic spell focus), reaper cores apply outside of reaper so may include +1 caster stat.

Also doesn't include using debuffs, such as hypnotism to reduce will saves, hold to strip evasion and so forth. Solid fog (at choke points) is +5 effective DC on anything with a reflex save by itself!

Almost every monster will have at least one weak save players can target as well - gotta learn to use all of the toolkit, not just the meteorswarm sledge hammer.

But yes, lots of grind for maybe workable, however the design may be that endgame elite might not be suitable for a first lifer.


Good tips. For holds, how easy is it to get a workable enchantment save if you are specced into evocation though? (one would hope that evasion mobs have will as their weak save?)

So with filligrees a bit higher DC is possible, but requires raids (few raids in my time zone). And the grind for everything is extremely long, and you'd have to be "carried" as drop rates on hard are horrendous.

It's not just first lifers.
With sorcerer PLs, draconic race and +8 tome, my DCs are still WAY too low as I don't even come close to having every bonus farmed that was listed.

Probably gotta accept half damage against regular mobs most of the time and even lower damage against evasion mobs using non-evasion spells. At least an evoker with some non-evasion spells is in a better shape than an instant killer spec that can't beat the DCs (their nuking damage is usually very low and costs more SP).

[makmakkabab]

Good tips. For holds, how easy is it to get a workable enchantment save if you are specced into evocation though? (one would hope that evasion mobs have will as their weak save?)

So with filligrees a bit higher DC is possible, but requires raids (few raids in my time zone). And the grind for everything is extremely long, and you'd have to be "carried" as drop rates on hard are horrendous.

It's not just first lifers.
With sorcerer PLs, draconic race and +8 tome, my DCs are still WAY too low as I don't even come close to having every bonus farmed that was listed.

Probably gotta accept half damage against regular mobs most of the time and even lower damage against evasion mobs using non-evasion spells. At least an evoker with some non-evasion spells is in a better shape than an instant killer spec that can't beat the DCs (their nuking damage is usually very low and costs more SP).

Your not alone in this. I am also a veteran, not uber veteran, just your plain average veteran, and I can tell you that my main which have +8 tomes, past lives of the caster classes for all those +3 dc, RL/Sharn gear (non raid), still fails the DC's in LE content across the board in all casters forms (sorc, wizard, warlock etc), even the so called "lower" will saves. So many fun DC builds are out of my reach its really a shame. Elite difficulty shouldn't require you to squeeze every little bit of DC stat, that's what Reaper difficulty is for. and you absolutely right, unless you are one of the top percentile, you are not getting a viable DC stat for multiple magic schools.

DC casting is currently either for the top players of DDO or for those who are willing to have their fun on lower difficulty settings.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

OK so now we are post U50/51 and my DC caster I hope the devs are not done tweaking and smashing mob stats because saves are still way too high.

*save**save**save**save**save**save**save**save**s ave*

I hear people are playing R10 and its easier - well that's ultra-fabulous for the tiny fraction of power gamers here who know all the latest meta tweaks -

But what about new players on 1st life toons in 29/30 loot, an artifact, and maybe 1 or 2 raid pieces?

DC casting is not hitting at all on Legendary Elite mobs in Ravenloft, Sharn, Salt, and Feywild content -

I thought the point of all the U50/51 aside from generating long term $$$ was to make the game more accessible for new players and 1st life toons?

[tsotate]

I thought the point of all the U50/51 aside from generating long term $$$ was to make the game more accessible for new players and 1st life toons?
That dev claim was obviously never true, since the stat squish massively increased the proportional value of reaper points, past lives, and fully-upgraded sentient gems.

[kaipan]

I thought the point of all the U50/51 aside from generating long term $$$ was to make the game more accessible for new players and 1st life toons?

If 1st-lifers can get an automatic no-fail DC in endgame Legendary Elite content, it's not very Elite. Do some lives, upgrade some items through filigrees, then come back and do LE content hoping to never fail, no?

[Wizard1406]

If 1st-lifers can get an automatic no-fail DC in endgame Legendary Elite content, it's not very Elite. Do some lives, upgrade some items through filigrees, then come back and do LE content hoping to never fail, no?

Personally I'm not talking about no-fail, but about a "working" DC. So that casting anything that has save or do nothing, not fail so often that is is a complete waste of time and spell points. Failing maybe 10-30% of the time is fine, but 75% to 95% is not.

Also the naming of the difficulties are misleading. Sure elite is not so elite in the original meaning of the word in modern DDO but that goes for other games too (example Low Mythic dungeons are not difficult in WoW, heroic even easier). It's just a fancier way of naming difficulties instead of 1, 2, 3...

Alternative is the devs making normal and hard not a complete waste of time except maybe for first time xp bonuses on xp farm quests. (the drop rate below elite is just too low, and xp drops reaper - elite - hard- normal are harsh too). It used to be like this, because quests could reward named items too.

edit: another problem, elite is too hard but only because you can't hit DCs, yet hard is too easy. No middle ground? I think on elite mobs saves are too high (and thus low reaper too as it's based on elite and then scaled up by skull)

[Bjond]

DC casting is not hitting at all on Legendary Elite mobs in Ravenloft, Sharn, Salt, and Feywild content
My low-life (1? 2? PLs) caster is a PM with DCs built for necro, illusion, and enchant (in that order). He's about DC-15 from U51 nerfs with mob DCs unchanged from what I can tell.

I *just* finished soloing him through Salt & Slavers @ R1. DCs are definitely very painful, but it's not a bricked build. His blasting efficiency has more than doubled. Now, he'll often just color and clobber instead of PK & Finger.

Actual tactics varied more by whim than plan; sometimes I'd charm & hold for a blast. Sometimes I'd spray 'em in the face, Finger/PK the stragglers, then blast the sprayed. Clearing rate was a fair bit faster than it was for my bard soloing the same content.

IMHO, the R1 epic game just became a boring solo faceroll for my caster.


If 1st-lifers can get an automatic no-fail DC in endgame Legendary Elite content, it's not very Elite. Do some lives, upgrade some items through filigrees, then come back and do LE content hoping to never fail, no?

If you can't reach no-fail DC, that particular build or spell is utterly worthless. So, yes, I do think a first life character should be able to hit literally zero fail DCs in R10, but let me qualify that a bit. That's ONLY if you build for it and only for the weak-to DC. Part of DC casting is knowing which mobs to hit with which spells. So, while it may become a one-button win once you know your spells and mobs, it should never be the same button for all targets -- that would just be ridiculous.

It's OK for a game to become a build and/or play test. Those are things that study or experience can overcome. It's not OK to make it a PL test. That's just pay-to-win with a layaway plan. Do that and you will quickly have no game left no matter how much whale-blubber SSG has padding them. Whales get lonely without dolphins to play with and dolphins don't do P2W -- there's no fun porpoise in it.

[Wizard1406]

It's OK for a game to become a build and/or play test. Those are things that study or experience can overcome. It's not OK to make it a PL test. That's just pay-to-win with a layaway plan. Do that and you will quickly have no game left no matter how much whale-blubber SSG has padding them. Whales get lonely without dolphins to play with and dolphins don't do P2W -- there's no fun porpoise in it.

I have to agree...PLs should never be required. I think the problem is the D20 system. 5% increase in efficiency per point is too high and that makes past lifes (and grinding an exteme amount of sentient xp to get every last casting stat filigree slotted) too strong.

D20 was fine when lvl cap was lower and few ppl did PLs.

Now casting D20 is at a place where to-hit was way back (don't remember when it changed ). People that didn't have as much to hit chance for various reasons like dual wield penalty, not full BAB, not having access to all to-hit buffs, were whiffing their attacks.

[voxson5]

DC casting is not hitting at all on Legendary Elite mobs in Ravenloft, Sharn, Salt, and Feywild content

Not sure what to tell you.. I even gimped my DC's lower than the 1st life example I put above (edit - and didn't use any will save debeffs)

https://i.imgur.com/uvtHJdh.jpg

[slarden]

I have to agree...PLs should never be required. I think the problem is the D20 system. 5% increase in efficiency per point is too high and that makes past lifes (and grinding an exteme amount of sentient xp to get every last casting stat filigree slotted) too strong.

The D20 system is fine - casting has always been a high investment proposition requiring extensive game knowledge on high difficulties, but it's much easier now with the U51 ED changes.

Enemies have 3 saves and the key is to try and target the low saves for each enemy with a useful spell.

While past lifes do help, the most important thing for a caster is knowledge of enemy saves and selecting the proper spells.

Removal of magister debuffing took away a fun and interesting part of the game, but there is still quite a bit of useful debuffing available - especially for spells that go against will saves which are often the most useful.

Also, with U51 in most cases casters are better overall with a more balanced build vs a high dc specialization - except for some push raiding edge cases. You have to give up too much to squeeze in those last few DC points which means enemy targeting is more important now than ever.


Not sure what to tell you.. I even gimped my DC's lower than the 1st life example I put above

https://i.imgur.com/uvtHJdh.jpg

Will saves are the easiest to overcome so they should also be the focus of people with lower character investment. In addition, I am not seeing crushing despair symbols and that is something that can be used to further debuff mobs so they can't overcome holds or greater color spray.

Focusing on illusion and enchantment is a really good choice for someone with low character investment as there is so much good synergy with legendary magewright set and scion of the feywild. In addition will saves are the lowest on average and even with an enchantment/illusion focus your finger of death will still be good enough for soft targets like caster/artificers in sharn even on a first-lifer.

[dredre9987]

The D20 system is fine - casting has always been a high investment proposition requiring extensive game knowledge on high difficulties, but it's much easier now with the U51 ED changes.

Enemies have 3 saves and the key is to try and target the low saves for each enemy with a useful spell.

While past lifes do help, the most important thing for a caster is knowledge of enemy saves and selecting the proper spells.

Removal of magister debuffing took away a fun and interesting part of the game, but there is still quite a bit of useful debuffing available - especially for spells that go against will saves which are often the most useful.

Also, with U51 in most cases casters are better overall with a more balanced build vs a high dc specialization - except for some push raiding edge cases. You have to give up too much to squeeze in those last few DC points which means enemy targeting is more important now than ever.



Will saves are the easiest to overcome so they should also be the focus of people with lower character investment. In addition, I am not seeing crushing despair symbols and that is something that can be used to further debuff mobs so they can't overcome holds or greater color spray.

Focusing on illusion and enchantment is a really good choice for someone with low character investment as there is so much good synergy with legendary magewright set and scion of the feywild. In addition will saves are the lowest on average and even with an enchantment/illusion focus your finger of death will still be good enough for soft targets like caster/artificers in sharn even on a first-lifer.

Mind fog is also a great spell for that.