I'm impressed, they got quite a lot right in u51!

[Chilldude]

I rarely play DDO anymore, but I still circle back to the forums every now and again to see what people have been screaming about recently. Just after a quick skim of the forums awhile back I saw so very many tears about the epic destiny changes. Like full blown ugly crying... snot running down their faces, half the things they say not really making much sense, and an occasional eruption here and there like a heavy lid on a pot of boiling water building up pressure and releasing in a chaotic yet slightly mesmerizing rhythmic pattern.

I knew if people were that upset then there must be something good about it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's good that they upset people, I'm saying the game has been almost perfectly backwards for so long that most of the people still playing are playing precisely because it's so flawed. So when people get really up in arms around here it's usually because the developers took something that was really out of whack and made it a little less out of whack.

Most people here have no interest in playing the game, they are solely interested in stringing together a series of exploits to create a win button that allows them to run in circles faster and longer than the next guy. From their perspective, when the devs monkey with the system, if they break even one link in their chain of exploits it renders their entire win button useless. So when they are storming the forums with torches and pitchforks it's usually a pretty good indicator that the devs might have got something right, from my perspective.

I didn't dive in all that deep, but after a cursory glance at the changes to EDs it looked pretty good to me. My problems with the original system weren't as much with the system as it was what it took to progress through the system. Just grinding through all the different destinies was about a hundred times as much grinding as I care to do. Add on that you had to grind through them while actually being in them making it a deal breaker for me on all but one of my characters. To timelords that was nothing, they are going to grind from 1 to 30 dozens and dozens of times on any character they play, maxing out destinies is a natural byproduct of that endeavor. In fact, the old system actually worked for them because every time they hit 20 again they could start with a maxed out ED and an ever increasing pool of fate points to twist in powerful abilities from other destinies.

For someone that just wanted to play the game the struggle was real. Hitting 20 on a fresh toon meant that you had exactly ZERO epic power, and ironically, maxing a destiny meant that you had to lose all that power you just gained in order to grind out another destiny. Some would argue there is nothing forcing you to leave the destiny you just maxed, but that's nonsense as the entire epic destiny system was built around just that. Any argument that suggests that players don't have to follow the progression system dictated by the developers is essentially saying the same thing as you don't ever have to leave Korthos island.

As bad as the ED grind was for a new toon, it was nothing compared to the fate point grind to unlock new and more powerful twist slots. None of my characters aside from my main ever even came close to maxing out their EDs, but even my main never came close to epic completionist, much less maxing out my fate points. Fate points were something that only the timelords got to play with. The old epic destiny system was no different than if timelords were allowed to start with max enhancement points at level 1 in Korthos. Well, even that's not really comparable, you'd have to take out all the level requirements from enhancements to make it truly equivalent. That and toss in a system to where if you are a really big timelord you get a lot more points to spend in the trees.

On the matter of grind reduction alone, u51 was a big win in my eyes, and quite frankly something I never thought I'd ever see in DDO... an actual, honest to goodness reduction in grind... and a significant reduction at that! Oh the times we live in.

So I decided to play...

...well, I didn't decide to play so much as I saw a friend of mine was playing and we hadn't talked in awhile so I decided to catch up with him, so I decided to play with him...

...and it just so happened that I had a level 20 character that I started years ago, long before epic levels, that I'd been working on getting 3 wiz/fvs/sorc pastlives (the BIG grind back in the day) to make him an evoker. He'd been sitting at 20 for quite some time with his pastlives complete and ready, a dragonborn, all that evocation at the ready, but every time I thought about playing him the thought of all that ED grind made me run to the bathroom projectile vomiting the whole way. How fortunate that he was just sitting there in the perfect position to try out the new ED system!

My friend is old school with an emphasis on old. He had every D&D thing (I don't remember what they are called, campaigns?) there was back in the 70's. He's forgotten more about D&D that most people will ever know, yet, he's not a very strong DDO player at all. I think he probably builds toons around ideals that would be good in D&D, Jack of all trades type characters with an ace up their sleeves, and has never been able to fully wrap his head around, much less embrace the idea of min/max win button dungeon destroyer characters. In DDO the best defense is an overpowered offense, the best anything is an overpowered offense, you just simply have to have an overpowered offense. If you don't have OP then you won't get the V!

So he's on a level 22 rogue (first life drow dex based) staff build that he's been soloing normals with and I'm on my level 20 FVS that's never ran an epic quest in his life despite being almost as old as Billy Eyelashes. I decide a good stepping off point would be to just jump all in with a trial by fire, but not Trial by Fire, I'm talking Jungle of Khyber EE. I figure we might not even make it past the first door, but lets go for it. We did make it past the first door, in fact we made it all the way, we had to take our time a bit and think about what we were doing, but it was pretty smooth. We went on to run a bunch of EE quests and everything went rather smoothly. Something was up... in EE LOD the end boss didn't just rip up to shreds in 2 seconds flat!

Turns out there's been an epic elite revamp that I probably didn't hear about over the timelord fallen twist slot tears. I inadvertently play tested a change in the game I didn't even know about and was super impressed!!!

WAY TO GO DEVS!!!

EE FINALLY makes sense! It's not too hard, it's not too easy, it's just right. Players who can't solo heroic elite aren't going to be able to solo epic elite, yet players who can easily solo heroic elite will find soloing EE very approachable. I would say it's still a bigger step up from EH to EE than from HH to HE, but it's still quite doable, and I would hazard to guess that any well balanced party working together as a team is going to be able to get through EE all the way from 20 to 30.

I feel dizzy just thinking about it. DDO went in the right direction, not once, but twice... IN THE SAME UPDATE!

I'm actually thinking about playing again and trying to build up the guild with new players... oh... darn... this is probably a year too late isn't it? Are there any new players left? Oh well, I have to give credit where credit is due, ya did good devs... give yourselves a big pat on the back. Now do some sort of promotion to get an influx of new players in, a Black Friday sale where all that stuff that was free a while back is free again... that'd probably do it.

[Svartelric]

Yep, it was a great update. The people who are "ugly crying", as you very eloquently put it, are the vocal minority that usually don't like changes AT FIRST, but come around eventually.

Before storming the forums I usually give it some time, to get the feel of "the new thing". I remember when MotU hit DDO. People said the game would die within that year. LOL.
Anyways, EE feels pretty good right now, most Destinies are much much better, some are meh, but whatever. Change build guys, ***.

As for you OP, come back, play some content, have fun! All packs are free with the coupon, come and see if you enjoy this latest version of the game.

[erethizon]

This update has been great. I normally don't care much about updates. I don't usually pay too much attention before they arrive and once they do arrive my reaction is rarely more than, "I guess it's nice that we have a new quest pack now." Updates are good for the game in that they usually add content, but that is rarely anything to be excited about (and I include expansion updates in that assessment). Update 50, for example, was a typical update. It was good for the game overall. I was glad they took the nerf bat to those overclocked monsters in Legendary Sharn and Feywild, but overall it was nothing to be excited about, just like update 49, 48, etc..

Update 51 is different. Epic levels are so much more fun now. My character is far more enjoyable to play in epic levels. This was a huge step in the right direction.

[Blerk]

You've painted a pretty unflattering picture of people objecting to the changes in U51 but if you itemised those objections I don't think you'd find many people arguing to keep the karma system or for keeping the game difficult for characters newly entering epics. So the first part of your post seems like a mischaraterisation that has much more to do with your apparent dislike of the community than the reality of what those reservations actually are.

Making the game easier is always going to play well in general and of course those who benefit most from it are going to clap along the loudest. That's not to say reducing the step between EH and EE is a bad thing but presumably this was not done as an act of charity, it was done to increase monetisation opportunities in later game play and set the scene for the level cap raise. So it might be best to save your applause until you see what SSG plans to sell us and how much more grind will be added to the game. If you think this was done out of the goodness of their hearts to help the little guys and girls you are badly mistaken.

[Pensar77]

You've painted a pretty unflattering picture of people objecting to the changes in U51 but if you itemised those objections I don't think you'd find many people arguing to keep the karma system or for keeping the game difficult for characters newly entering epics. So the first part of your post seems like a mischaraterisation that has much more to do with your apparent dislike of the community than the reality of what those reservations actually are.

Making the game easier is always going to play well in general and of course those who benefit most from it are going to clap along the loudest. That's not to say reducing the step between EH and EE is a bad thing but presumably this was not done as an act of charity, it was done to increase monetisation opportunities in later game play and set the scene for the level cap raise. So it might be best to save your applause until you see what SSG plans to sell us and how much more grind will be added to the game. If you think this was done out of the goodness of their hearts to help the little guys and girls you are badly mistaken.

Wow. You find a way to downplay something you see as a positive improvement in the game by suggesting that maybe they will do something bad in the future so the good thing doesn't count. How is this way of seeing things helping you enjoy your time on the game or, more generally, in life?

[erethizon]

Turns out there's been an epic elite revamp that I probably didn't hear about over the timelord fallen twist slot tears. I inadvertently play tested a change in the game I didn't even know about and was super impressed!!!

Now do some sort of promotion to get an influx of new players in, a Black Friday sale where all that stuff that was free a while back is free again... that'd probably do it.

You point out a big problem I had during the build up to update 51. I kept saying, "Twists are going away. You cannot change that. Our discussion should be on the monster revamp because that is what makes the biggest difference in how the game plays and it has not yet been set in stone." Instead people couldn't get over their beloved twists and the monster revamp got almost no attention (to the point that people like you didn't even know it existed).

As for a Black Friday sale where everything is free again, they are doing that now (I think). I don't recall when the free code ends (it may have just ended or it may still be going for a little while longer), but they brought out a new free code a month or two ago that gives all the old free content plus a couple of things that were not included last year. This time Ravenloft is also 99 store points (along with the first two expansions).

I'm really happy with the results of your story. You are exactly the kind of player this EE revamp was for. The forums are so filled with people that play mid-to-high reaper that people like yourself were just not being represented enough during the build up to Update 51. People kept trying to distort the goal of the EE revamp with R6+ in mind when that was never who it was for.

[Blerk]

Wow. You find a way to downplay something you see as a positive improvement in the game by suggesting that maybe they will do something bad in the future so the good thing doesn't count. How is this way of seeing things helping you enjoy your time on the game or, more generally, in life?

I'm not at all convinced that everything about u51 was a positive improvement. There were some benefits and some drawbacks, and at this point we are not in a position to judge all of it because we don't know what is yet to come and what the longer term effect on the game will be. But at no point did I say the benefits didn't count.

My interpretation of what SSG does is shaped by the understanding that they are a business wanting to make money, not a bunch of our friends just here to give us the most enjoyable gaming experience possible. I think this is a realistic way of looking at the situation.

The fact that we had the atrocious karma system in the first place, requiring us to spend so much time levelling in off destinies with methods to bypass that grind conveniently available for sale, is evidence of that and I am not going to cheer the company for removing a bad system they inflicted upon us in the first place. It seems like thanking someone when they stop kicking you in the groin.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Most people here have no interest in playing the game, they are solely interested in stringing together a series of exploits to create a win button that allows them to run in circles faster and longer than the next guy. From their perspective, when the devs monkey with the system, if they break even one link in their chain of exploits it renders their entire win button useless. So when they are storming the forums with torches and pitchforks it's usually a pretty good indicator that the devs might have got something right, from my perspective.


+1 for the analysis of the whole post. U51 is arguably the greatest DDO update and the game is the best it has ever been. Certainly in epics. This part quoted also is dead-on accurate. We are already getting sideways glances from some in the R10 sect. They don't like that epics have been rebalanced. They don't want to share any of the power, wings, and kill count. It remains to be seen whether the Devs stand behind the epic reimaging or if we get R11 - Legendary! that just starts the whole cycle over again.

[Alttab]

I personally like U51 and I had a lot of fun with the new Epic Destinies. They just need to fix a couple of bugs and balances and it will be very good. I do much more damage and all monsters are melting compared to the old system that it was taking me forever to kill monsters. Even though I am a little more squishy, I just need to try some build combinations for defense and offense with the new Epic Destinies to look more similar to my old epic destiny build and I will have a blast :)

[Oliphant]

It remains to be seen whether the Devs stand behind the epic reimaging or if we get R11 - Legendary! that just starts the whole cycle over again.

R11 challenge mode would mean a modest or even no increase in xp compared to R10 without having to rebuff any of R1-R10. Taking it to 11 would mean they could just keep making it harder as needed, no need to keep adding more levels. This is why people specifically requesting a +1, the least aggressive fix possible that does not hurt anyone.

[SpiritofAlba]

A bit collectively harsh on those who don't like the changes - I suspect that the vocal minority is a minority within the stronger players, as well as within the players as a whole. Also, one of the things I like about the game is that there are a lot of generous strong players, who'll at least tolerate people tagging along, and often give help, tips, gear etc. So thanks to all them.

That said, I do basically agree with the OP. I've played for a long time, but pretty casually as I don;t have much time IRL for gaming. I only run one toon, and had filled out about half the destinies. I have been taking different classes in turn 1-30, which takes me months rather than hours, and I've always enjoyed epics less than heroics, as the power step up was so awkward. Now, it is much smoother. and also much more flexible - you can try different destinies, see what works and fits play style. (Obvs you could do that before on destinies you'd filled out, but only then).

There is still the enormous reaper points gap effect, and given how much work people have put into gathering those, can't see any way out of it, but that's a whole other can of worms... Meanwhile, a shout out to those of us who (sometimes) run less than reaper and post them up as PUGs - any level should be fine to group in, and the more diversity the better - so be bold and PUG whether you are new or vet, just tell people what kind of group you are.

[erethizon]

R11 challenge mode would mean a modest or even no increase in xp compared to R10 without having to rebuff any of R1-R10. Taking it to 11 would mean they could just keep making it harder as needed, no need to keep adding more levels. This is why people specifically requesting a +1, the least aggressive fix possible that does not hurt anyone.

R11 is definitely the best solution and if it does not have any extra RXP over R10 then it becomes a challenge mode just for those people that truly find R10 too easy and just want to be challenged. I find that to be a great solution. If it doesn't have any rewards over R10 then we don't find ourselves arguing between the people that want a challenge and the people that just want the reward as easily as possible. I would be very pleased if they kept epics just like they are now and only added an R11 option.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

What is amazing to me about folks who like U51 is how much simpler a system it is than the previous one - literally you get 1 mantle and 1 strike - making DDO so ultra simplified it requires no thought.

The previous system had flaws yes, but the fact that you could have numerous situational abilities, swap into any destiny, with any combo of twists prior to a quest, and at lvl 30 you had something to do by refilling Karma, and that you needed to quest to open all the destinies for the first time -

what is there to do now at 30 if you don't raid? What if you don't want to raid? This U51 has nothing for a lvl 30 to do other than push 1 button, oh and every 5 minutes you can have 20 seconds of something meh.

The old system may have been too complicated and too niche and just flat out too intelligent because there were so many esoteric options but I preferred it to this over simplified dumbed down thing it now is - say what you want - disagree with me, my opinions are my own and I am in a minority - alone here with my desire to preserve the dungeons and dragons apsects of DDO - but U51 and this oversimplification of 1 mantle 1 strike is sooo boring, just flat out way too for my tastes.

PS - this dumbing down and oversimplification is a plague among MMOs in general so DDO is not alone - WoW has done it, ESO, SWToR notoriously ruined their gameplay by dumbing it - really you can name any MMO - the most obvious being Star Wars Galaxies that was killed by this; it may be tempting as a path, but it never leads anywhere good. Players usually do not want over-balanced perfect (ironic because this thread seem to) - because that means ultra-simple. Lotro has suffered from this too. You wait, those of you playing New World, it will happen there too.

From a video game engineering perspective it makes sense - simpler to code, and balance; but the veneer over a simple system then is a simple game.

Dungeons & Dragons was NEVER meant to be simple - there are books and books - to play you need to read and think and use your brain. I remember going to games with gym bags filled with books - having 4 or 5 open in front of me - when I DM'd I'd spend months putting together a campaign researching the very obscure to come up with options for any scenerio the players might have found themselves in - off topic yes, DDO is not ttrpg, but its roots are - I personally, am a dork - yes, a geek - a strange nerd who likes the complex - I enjoy thinking - its probably why I write for a living - I do not like overly simplified or dumbed down. I'll cut to the chase - why is 5e, the most popular system ever? Because it is complex and allows for so many strange variations - basically your imagination is the limit; unlike 4 which was the least liked ruleset ever, not surprisingly, because 4 was the most oversimplified variation.

[ChaosBuddha]

R11 is definitely the best solution and if it does not have any extra RXP over R10 then it becomes a challenge mode just for those people that truly find R10 too easy and just want to be challenged. I find that to be a great solution. If it doesn't have any rewards over R10 then we don't find ourselves arguing between the people that want a challenge and the people that just want the reward as easily as possible. I would be very pleased if they kept epics just like they are now and only added an R11 option.

yeah lets have a system that give no reward to good players its not like ppl r running out of reason to play at end game or anything

[FengXian]

They've got quite a lot wrong too. That's the whole point. Getting stuff right should be the baseline.

All this wait for Legendary Sands' items and THIS is what we get? Uninspired copy pastes and actual nerfs for crit-range outliers, even compared to the already nerfed epic versions?

All praise for the good parts goes out of the window when you treat your players like this. Ofc there will be the half-full glass crowd, but I want a full glass, no halves.

[Steeme]

literally you get 1 mantle and 1 strike - making DDO so ultra simplified it requires no thought.

I don't understand this point. I usually have 2 epic strikes (a better player might have 3) and there is some decision making on which one to use and when as they put each other on varying cooldowns.

This is far more complicated than pre-U51, which was basically GCS / Mass Hold / Dire Charge + hit action boost and mush away. Oh, don't forget the meld god mode to bail you out every couple minutes.

[Dandonk]

They removed or changed beyond recognition fun abilities, took most of the monk out of GMoF, removed flexibility and introduced a system where you can't even see in-game what the other trees do without a non-free reset. Generally use less active abilities now, which is less fun for me.

But yes, they did get come things right: Removal of karma is great. Easing of entry into epics is good. Removal of need to grind EDs out. These could've been done without this revamp, though, so to me this is not something good about the U51 revamp, but long overdue changes that are independent of it.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to call people names or generally belittle them for their real concerns.

[donblas]

Dungeons & Dragons was NEVER meant to be simple - there are books and books - to play you need to read and think and use your brain. I remember going to games with gym bags filled with books.

It was indeed simple - when I started playing there was a small box containing three small books totalling about 100 pages.

When Greyhawk came out we got our 4th class! Another 68 pages.

It was really simple so "never" is really not correct.

[grudgebear]

What is amazing to me about folks who like U51 is how much simpler a system it is than the previous one - literally you get 1 mantle and 1 strike - making DDO so ultra simplified it requires no thought.

The previous system had flaws yes, but the fact that you could have numerous situational abilities, swap into any destiny, with any combo of twists prior to a quest, and at lvl 30 you had something to do by refilling Karma, and that you needed to quest to open all the destinies for the first time -

Playing a freezing bard already puts me in to using 4 abilities - Spinning Ice, Frozen Fury, En Pointe, Bluff if I get one ability more from ED like Dire Charge I have enough of them. Reducing of actives was a good move, at least for some builds.



But yes, they did get come things right: Removal of karma is great. Easing of entry into epics is good. Removal of need to grind EDs out. These could've been done without this revamp, though, so to me this is not something good about the U51 revamp, but long overdue changes that are independent of it.

I'm gonna withhold from giving any praise for this one... Karma and Off Destiny handicap was damaging player's experience in Epics, it's a no brainer that it should have been removed long time ago. Just like adding Wisdom Support for draconic destiny. It's total cheese in this situation to try to make it look like a selling point for this revamp.

[Firebreed]

They got a lot of things right, sure.

But they got about 250 things wrong too.

And if you ask me, 250 wrong things outweigh any amount of good content until they are fixed, IF they are fixed.

[DaviMOC]

I'm impressed too. Last time i felt that way was when they revamped Enhancments. All those new abilities and possibilities so fun and so refreshing.
What I'm also impressed is with the post patch and Devs. I know in the end we are clients/consumer's but is really nice to see patchs coming and fixing the new bugs as also the Devs reports and interactions even after people pointing their torches and pitchforks at them.

I may sound odd but I'm not used to it when we talk about DDO. Thanks devs for evolving and keeping the game renewed .

[Chilldude]

Alright... I was mistaken about something that significantly impacts my impression of this update. I thought they made EE mobs easier, which I've been advocating for a long time. EE mobs had insane saves and insane damage which meant you had to nuke or you die. From day one of epic levels I felt they needed to bring EE mob saves down considerably. The myriad of abilities afforded characters in DDO exist precisely to create alternate avenues of completion beyond merely nuking everything in sight. Yet it was virtually impossible for new characters to obtain an effective DC against EE mobs even when heavily investing in the prerequisite stats, rendering nearly all abilities aside from direct damage worthless.

Before I posted this thread I had played through quite a few quests on EE with a friend on a first life toon that would have been absolutely shredded prior to U51. For some reason I was under the mistaken impression that they had adjusted mobs in EE, but now I understand they adjusted epic mobs in general... which spills over into reaper. I'm not sure that's a good thing, in fact, I imagine that's probably a very bad thing. Reaper should be extremely hard, that was the whole point of it. I am completely unfamiliar with how U51 has impacted reaper, so I can't speak to specifics, but R10 being the most difficult content in the game, I definitely think only the most hardened players on characters chock-full of grindy goodness should be able to complete it.

I in no way advocate for the game to be easier overall, I never have. I have always found the step up from epic hard to epic elite to be ridiculously steep and am happy to see that rectified with this update. For as long as the game uses the extremely flawed D20 system as its foundational cornerstone DDO will forever be a joke. However, lowering EE mob saves allows more people in on the joke. I, personally, am still quite pleased with this update as it fixes 2 of my top 10 complaints about the game... epic destiny grind and the inaccessibility of EE for newer players and characters, but for people who were running high reapers before U51 I can certainly understand their frustration if this update has trivialized high reaper content.

[blarhblarhblarh]

Quick reminder of what I read:


I rarely play DDO anymore,

Most people here have no interest in playing the game, t

I didn't dive in all that deep,

For someone that just wanted to play the game the struggle was real.

As bad as the ED grind was for a new toon,

On the matter of grind reduction alone,
So I decided to play...

...well, I didn't decide to play so much as I saw a friend of mine was playing and we hadn't talked in awhile so I decided to catch up with him, so I decided to play with him...

...and it just so happened that I had a level 20 character that I started years ago, long before epic levels,


I feel dizzy just thinking about it. DDO went in the right direction, not once, but twice... IN THE SAME UPDATE!

this is probably a year too late isn't it? Are there any new players left? Oh well, I have to give credit where credit is due, ya did good devs... give yourselves a big pat on the back. Now do some sort of promotion to get an influx of new players in, a Black Friday sale where all that stuff that was free a while back is free again... that'd probably do it.




Hard to believe in you. If your toon works after 10 years it means the game is too easy or that it haven´t evolved ever since. If you can play without 10 years worth of gear and lots of updates means that you will find the game way too easy when you are well equiped - and I didn´t say greatly equiped since a great equiped toon in HEROIC level 15 can crit for over 2k damage when an epic mob of level 27 can have 1.200 hp. So imagine the gap. Imagine if you kept playing and bought all expansions, VIP membership and had all reincarnations already, how in the world this experience would be valid as a matter of comparison? I can give you an good comparison: before the update 50 hits your toon would be better, more usefull at level 30 and wouldn´t be a drag in high reaper or raids. Today since the gear stats are lower past lifes and reaper points are even more important at endgame at all dificulty ranges, from casual to reaper 10.

Developers keep pating themselfs on the back because they never listen to player feedback and there may be good things about this update but none of them matches with your opinion that is biased by lack of ddo experience with all of it´s pros and cons. It´s too early to say anything or to have an opinion since all balance in the game is broken right now and there are tons of new and old bugs to fix.

[Eme]

im impressed they got so much wrong

[erethizon]

yeah lets have a system that give no reward to good players its not like ppl r running out of reason to play at end game or anything

My point was that high reaper currently is played by people with two different motives. On the one hand you have people that truly desire to be challenged. On the other hand you have people, such as myself, that want high reaper to be as easy as possible because all I want is the RXP. If I could make R10 as easy as R1 I would do it in a heartbeat. That said, a better solution would not be to nerf R10, after all, that setting is for people that like a challenge. A better option would be to make R1 give the same RXP as R10 so that I no longer have the motivation to nerf R10. I don't want R10 to be easy because I am against people having a challenge setting. I want R10 to be easy because I want it to be easy to get R10 amounts of RXP.

While the example in the prior paragraph was intentionally absurd to demonstrate a point, the actual post of mine you quoted was simply saying if you make R11 have better rewards than R10 you will have people, like me, trying to get R11 to be as easy as possible just because we want the R11 rewards. To be clear, it is not just me. It appears the vast majority of DDO players want the game to be as easy as possible. Just look at the reaction every time something gets nerfed compared to how happy they are when they get a power boost. Most of us want DDO to be easy. Since R10 (or in this discussion R11) is a challenge mode made for people that truly want to be challenged, it would be best if it wasn't polluted by people like me that don't desire that. The easiest way to do that is to make it so that people that don't want to be challenged don't want to play R11. It is the RXP that draws a great many of us to high reaper. If the highest reaper setting didn't give more RXP than the second highest setting you wouldn't see so many people trying to make the highest setting easier.

[erethizon]

Playing a freezing bard already puts me in to using 4 abilities - Spinning Ice, Frozen Fury, En Pointe, Bluff if I get one ability more from ED like Dire Charge I have enough of them. Reducing of actives was a good move, at least for some builds.

It is interesting how programming choices influence how I feel about this issue. The main reason I prefer passive abilities (like the Draconic mantle) over active abilities that require hitting a hotkey is that the Warlock blast has a 1 second wind up and wind down when starting and stopping the attack. If I could hold down my left mouse button and use my hotkeys without interrupting my blast I would want as many hotkeys as possible. But since blasting prevents hotkeys from being used and the use of hotkeys prevents the blasting from being used (and since there is an delay between switching from one to the other), I find that I want as much power as possible to be concentrated in the basic blast attack. If they simply made it so that I could hit hotkeys and do that extra damage without stopping my blast attack I would feel completely differently. As it stands now I would prefer that all my power be concentrated in my blast attack and would sacrifice pretty much all of my hotkeys since I can only use one or the other effectively and there has never been enough hotkeys with low enough cooldowns for nonstop hotkey combat to be effective for a Warlock.

[erethizon]

Alright... I was mistaken about something that significantly impacts my impression of this update. I thought they made EE mobs easier, which I've been advocating for a long time. EE mobs had insane saves and insane damage which meant you had to nuke or you die. From day one of epic levels I felt they needed to bring EE mob saves down considerably. The myriad of abilities afforded characters in DDO exist precisely to create alternate avenues of completion beyond merely nuking everything in sight. Yet it was virtually impossible for new characters to obtain an effective DC against EE mobs even when heavily investing in the prerequisite stats, rendering nearly all abilities aside from direct damage worthless.

Before I posted this thread I had played through quite a few quests on EE with a friend on a first life toon that would have been absolutely shredded prior to U51. For some reason I was under the mistaken impression that they had adjusted mobs in EE, but now I understand they adjusted epic mobs in general... which spills over into reaper. I'm not sure that's a good thing, in fact, I imagine that's probably a very bad thing. Reaper should be extremely hard, that was the whole point of it. I am completely unfamiliar with how U51 has impacted reaper, so I can't speak to specifics, but R10 being the most difficult content in the game, I definitely think only the most hardened players on characters chock-full of grindy goodness should be able to complete it.

I in no way advocate for the game to be easier overall, I never have. I have always found the step up from epic hard to epic elite to be ridiculously steep and am happy to see that rectified with this update. For as long as the game uses the extremely flawed D20 system as its foundational cornerstone DDO will forever be a joke. However, lowering EE mob saves allows more people in on the joke. I, personally, am still quite pleased with this update as it fixes 2 of my top 10 complaints about the game... epic destiny grind and the inaccessibility of EE for newer players and characters, but for people who were running high reapers before U51 I can certainly understand their frustration if this update has trivialized high reaper content.

Unfortunately reaper is directly tied to EE. All reaper stats are just EE modified. That said, it didn't trivialize reaper too much. While it did make reaper easier overall (particularly lower level reaper) R10 is still found to be easy by the same people that found it easy before. I'm still noticing quite a bit of deaths in R10 from the people that were not able to handle it before and R10 groups are still only successful when they contain the one or two people that were carrying the group in R10's before the update.

The positive part is that the update not only lessened the gap between EH and EE, it also lessened the gap between EE and R1 and R2. People can now more easily make their way into reaper difficulty which is for the best since people that like to join LFM's very quickly learn that they are going to be playing reaper much of the time whether they want to or not. Some people just don't like leading parties and it is for the best if they are able to fit into a low reaper party more easily.

[Oxarhamar]

Playing a freezing bard already puts me in to using 4 abilities - Spinning Ice, Frozen Fury, En Pointe, Bluff if I get one ability more from ED like Dire Charge I have enough of them. Reducing of actives was a good move, at least for somebuilds .

I wish that there were more passive options

Infact I have long asked for a passive multiselector on any active ability to get some passive option if someone does not want to use the active but my trees will offer so little already without actives both enhancements and destiny

[Chilldude]

Hard to believe in you. If your toon works after 10 years...

I didn't say I haven't played in 10 years, I said I rarely play anymore. I own all the content in the game, and have played all the content in the game a considerable amount, with the exception of the latest expansion which I bought awhile back and then stopped playing before I tried it. I'm extremely familiar with DDO and all of its underlying mechanics. I could probably map out every dungeon from memory, complete with mob spawns. I'm not a new player, or even a casual player, simply a player who rarely plays because I can't stomach the horrendous grind. I've left the game dozens of times, and I've come back dozens of times. Each time I come back it seems like the duration of my stay gets shorter because I simply can't force myself to solo grind more than a single quest before I am so bored I'm about to fall asleep.

I always enjoy playing with friends, even if we're just grinding, but I have very few friends that play with any regularity anymore. In fact, the only reason I've played recently is because of a friend who decided to dust off DDO and take a few laps.


...it means the game is too easy or that it haven´t evolved ever since. If you can play without 10 years worth of gear and lots of updates means that you will find the game way too easy when you are well equiped - and I didn´t say greatly equiped since a great equiped toon in HEROIC level 15 can crit for over 2k damage when an epic mob of level 27 can have 1.200 hp. So imagine the gap. Imagine if you kept playing and bought all expansions, VIP membership and had all reincarnations already, how in the world this experience would be valid as a matter of comparison? I can give you an good comparison: before the update 50 hits your toon would be better, more usefull at level 30 and wouldn´t be a drag in high reaper or raids. Today since the gear stats are lower past lifes and reaper points are even more important at endgame at all dificulty ranges, from casual to reaper 10.

Developers keep pating themselfs on the back because they never listen to player feedback and there may be good things about this update but none of them matches with your opinion that is biased by lack of ddo experience with all of it´s pros and cons. It´s too early to say anything or to have an opinion since all balance in the game is broken right now and there are tons of new and old bugs to fix.

Although I can certainly empathize with those affected, what impact the U51 changes have on R10 is of no concern to me personally. If R10 is too easy now, someone above said it isn't, then they can always adjust reaper scaling. Overall, this update certainly makes the game more accessible, which makes the game a lot more attractive to me, not because it was inaccessible to me before U51, but because I didn't have anyone to play with. In this new U51 world, I could meet a new player in Korthos and know that we could play together today, not 2 years from now after they've circled the block a few dozen times. In the past I've met dozens of new players in Korthos and watched them all quit playing when were confronted with the harsh realities of DDO grind.

Leveling through heroics they're like, "This game is really cool, I like this and that." Get to epics, step in EE, instant death, "What did I do wrong?" Well...

First you need to grind out all your epic destinies so you can twist in vital abilities. This could be done in a few weeks of constant grinding, but you're probably better off just TRing once you hit 30 and leveling from 1 to 30 about 4-5 times to max your destinies.

OK, so max my destinies and then I'm all set?

No, I mean kinda, if you want to healbot, but if you actually want to contribute you're going to need your DC past lives, and heal amp past lives, and HP past lives, and PRR past lives, and MRR past lives, and saves past lives, and...

Wait... hold up... how long is all this going to take?

I'll let you know when I get there.

Before a dozen people start chiming in, "Bu.. buh... but you didn't really NEED all those past lives... yadda, yadda, yadda... I can blah, blah, blah..." The above is an exaggerated oversimplification of a typical scenario that has played out dozens upon dozens of times in the past with new players I've met in game. Yes you didn't absolutely have to have dozens of past lives to get carried through content. You could healbot, you could stand in the back, you could bring buffs, or like many people here on the forums, you could simply delude yourself into thinking you were actually making a difference when the player with 150 past lives and 600 reaper points carried you through content. The simple fact of the matter is without a ridiculously substantial time investment in a character you were not throwing up a high reaper on the LFM and then stepping in to get to work completely carefree of who joined the party, if anyone at all.

Anytime anything remotely encouraging happens in DDO I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop, but the changes brought by U51 are not only great from my perspective, I think they could precipitate a lot of great things happening the future... like more players who actually stick around.

[Weemadarthur]

Unfortunately reaper is directly tied to EE. All reaper stats are just EE modified. That said, it didn't trivialize reaper too much. While it did make reaper easier overall (particularly lower level reaper) R10 is still found to be easy by the same people that found it easy before. I'm still noticing quite a bit of deaths in R10 from the people that were not able to handle it before and R10 groups are still only successful when they contain the one or two people that were carrying the group in R10's before the update.

The positive part is that the update not only lessened the gap between EH and EE, it also lessened the gap between EE and R1 and R2. People can now more easily make their way into reaper difficulty which is for the best since people that like to join LFM's very quickly learn that they are going to be playing reaper much of the time whether they want to or not. Some people just don't like leading parties and it is for the best if they are able to fit into a low reaper party more easily.

I will start with the 2nd paragraph here as that is where I agree very strongly. The lower end of reapers and more importantly the EH to EE jump has actually come out well with U51. Pre U51 I have always agreed with Ere that the jump was too big going from EH to EE or low reaper. Now this feels more like a natural increase that follows close to if not the exact same formula as heroics. This part was a long time coming and even though I personally think the diff increase should be a little higher once characters reach level 24 or so I wouldn't increase the diff by much and am happy for it to be left where it is for the most part. This has in effect been the biggest boon of U51 and the 1 part they got right 100% as far as I'm concerned is the balance at level 20-24 (where the biggest imbalance was pre update).

Now to paragraph one where I could not disagree more (apologies here but expect a lot of back and forth now as Ere seems to have an axe to grind where I'm concerned so will keep trying to justify their opinion here till I give up posting again from boredom) The 1st part about reaper scaling from EE is correct and imo the biggest problem. The recent changes did trivialize reapers though. As Marshal pointed out in a previous thread R4 is now the equivalent of EE and tbf I think he was right. The problem comes when you were good enough (just) to be able to manage high reapers before hand (here I don't mean join a group and get carried through but actually being able to contribute at least or even carry the group with a struggle). For those players the game has now lost any challenge setting. R6-8 are playing now pretty much as R3-4 did before the update. R9 & 10 are now pre U51 R8. Now for those that played under R8 pre U51 this is great and a definite boost. For those that played R8+ this is a problem. There is literally no-where to go. The game has lost all challenge.

Now to put some perspective here I honestly believe this only effects around 20% of the playerbase (although 50% think they belong and contribute in high reapers). This however is 20% of the playerbase that now has zero fun content. This on its own I would say was a problem but to make matters worse this is the same 20% that will have the biggest spenders in (which is how they got there for a significant portion). Lose that 20% and the game overall will be in trouble. Increase difficulty though to put the challenge back top end and we will just go back to where we were before the update with EE being a huge jump again.

The solution though is quite simple. Change how reaper skulls scale. Leave R1 where it is and increase the scaling from there. Double the increase per skull and R10 becomes R5. New R10 becomes the equivalent of R20 and goes back to being challenge mode. R1 is still a good entry level, R2 & 3 will be a challenge for most, R4&5 will become the default challenge setting for RXP and anything above can actually be a challenge.

[Hawkwier]

I will start with the 2nd paragraph here as that is where I agree very strongly. The lower end of reapers and more importantly the EH to EE jump has actually come out well with U51. Pre U51 I have always agreed with Ere that the jump was too big going from EH to EE or low reaper. Now this feels more like a natural increase that follows close to if not the exact same formula as heroics. This part was a long time coming and even though I personally think the diff increase should be a little higher once characters reach level 24 or so I wouldn't increase the diff by much and am happy for it to be left where it is for the most part. This has in effect been the biggest boon of U51 and the 1 part they got right 100% as far as I'm concerned is the balance at level 20-24 (where the biggest imbalance was pre update).

Now to paragraph one where I could not disagree more (apologies here but expect a lot of back and forth now as Ere seems to have an axe to grind where I'm concerned so will keep trying to justify their opinion here till I give up posting again from boredom) The 1st part about reaper scaling from EE is correct and imo the biggest problem. The recent changes did trivialize reapers though. As Marshal pointed out in a previous thread R4 is now the equivalent of EE and tbf I think he was right. The problem comes when you were good enough (just) to be able to manage high reapers before hand (here I don't mean join a group and get carried through but actually being able to contribute at least or even carry the group with a struggle). For those players the game has now lost any challenge setting. R6-8 are playing now pretty much as R3-4 did before the update. R9 & 10 are now pre U51 R8. Now for those that played under R8 pre U51 this is great and a definite boost. For those that played R8+ this is a problem. There is literally no-where to go. The game has lost all challenge.

Now to put some perspective here I honestly believe this only effects around 20% of the playerbase (although 50% think they belong and contribute in high reapers). This however is 20% of the playerbase that now has zero fun content. This on its own I would say was a problem but to make matters worse this is the same 20% that will have the biggest spenders in (which is how they got there for a significant portion). Lose that 20% and the game overall will be in trouble. Increase difficulty though to put the challenge back top end and we will just go back to where we were before the update with EE being a huge jump again.

The solution though is quite simple. Change how reaper skulls scale. Leave R1 where it is and increase the scaling from there. Double the increase per skull and R10 becomes R5. New R10 becomes the equivalent of R20 and goes back to being challenge mode. R1 is still a good entry level, R2 & 3 will be a challenge for most, R4&5 will become the default challenge setting for RXP and anything above can actually be a challenge.

My reservations over U51 are well documented.

That said, I tend to agree with the apparent conclusion that R is easier for levelling being a good thing. I'm puzzled as even at cap, mobs also seem easier, which I didn't think was in scope, and I disagree that at cap R4 becoming the new EE is a good thing. IMO it isn't (I'm being selfish here as cap is pretty much exclusively where I play).

I do have a couple of caveats though...

1. Not all classes or playstyles have been affected equally. For example own burst damage has taken a hit as the new Epic Moments don't give me as much burst DPS as I had in Fury. A simple blanket scaling up of difficulty won't be welcome for those who have benefited less comparatively from U51.

2. There may be no need to scale up in the long run if mob power increase is greater than toon power increase in levels 31-40.

For these reasons I'm against a ramp-up in mob power unless they are addressed/accounted for.

The balance point for U51 was missed by a significant margin in U51. Whilst that is not a good outcome, it is at least in favour of players, and that is by far preferable to it being missed the other way.