For a Fist ful of Flowers

[Tilomere]

nerfed in u57

(offhand versatility, relative tankyness to tanks)

[magaiti]

Ah, apparently another guide for people who can't read, only look at colorful pictures.

[kmoustakas]

Great guide, thank you.

[magaiti]

I like how the profanity filter squelched "ndfu" from to "handful"

[Synthetic]

Is defensive roll kicking in when you have temp hp? I.e. if you have 49% of your hp and get a big temp hp buff you still get the 50% damage reduction.

[Tilomere]

Defensive roll turns off if temp hp brings you over 50%. But that may change in a patch when they fix how EA healing aura also stops healing players that temp hp brings to full.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Moar screenshots !!! Moar screenshots !!!111eleven

[Tilomere]

Moar screenshots !!! Moar screenshots !!!111eleven

You're wish is my command, this build might solo a few legendary raids as well:

https://i.postimg.cc/5bzBHfzt/Screen-Shot-2021-11-16-160052-0.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/fMhxm17f/Screen-Shot-2021-11-16-160059-0.jpg

[Saekee]

hey fun stuff Tilo! I have not tried out the new system with my main yet but I like the idea of pushing Defensive roll (we did this before VKF) and temp hp through sentinel (I did not know Sentinel even had this stuff). Sounds like the centerpiece here of your approach.



I am not sure SWF comes out ahead of TWF since you get all the sneak procs on the offhand with TWF as well as combo daggers like Pain and Suffering
I did a twink ml 21 gearset here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/512468-Assassin-ER-twink-gear?p=6458787&viewfull=1#post6458787) if you are curious. I have not done much endgame so cannot comment yet and mostly lack the right gear.
In the past I would run in Fury not Shadowdancer since I could knock out anything (except bosses) flat and helpless. This worked on reapers too giving me a huge edge. I was thinking that I might try getting the adrenaline knockdown hits and then run in some other setup, maybe SD mantle for faster sneaking etc. but now you got me thinking of this approach. Always the only problem for me was the red named so this seems like the solution.
Carpone should be posting an update to his endgame assassin setup
Skills--Jump is halved while sneaking so good to max; listen allows you to hear mobs that you might not spot (you see red blips where they are standing). I use bluff heavily. I know a lot of folks dump Improved Feint but I like it more than anything mainly because it breaks the TWF attack chain, like old twitch fighting
For some sneaking situations, you might try my weaving in the fade: essentially, use shadowalk scroll and mass invisi; you can move faster, be constantly displaced, and just assassinate stuff. Thread here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/467979). Fun in some circumstances.
You can group mobs too by using noisemakers, flaming spheres, or invisi stepping (the latter if they do not have true sight/see invisi etc.). A quick invisi step will draw them to investigate the sound, then you got them clumped or even just out of the way.

[Tilomere]

Ya improved defensive roll is pretty beastly. It is one of those abilities that grows on you. When you are new and die in 1 hit it is useless, but as you climb Mt. Powercreep, it definitely grows on you.

1 Most of your AoE damage is from chains, which are cleaves, so I think SWF comes out ahead on tanking and dungeon trash mob clearing, but is worse for raids and red names.
2 Ahh, yea that may help others. I don't believe in using assassinate gear. I don't feel 1 or 2 weakest of the weak mob kills every 12 seconds is good enough to warrant building for, especially since you are left with the reapers and DW champions which are the real threats. The weak mobs generally will die to chains damage anyways. In general, I don't feel assassinate and stealth are worth primary hotbar space. I use stealth when solo, but grouped as the tank you have to be fast and in front to be visible to get aggro and move at group speeds. Oh, also need more HAMP and +Lore and Fortification and spell saves, since we are acting as the tank.
3. Dire Charge works on reapers, so you can just use that, now that you have a dex trance to boost the DC to a bajillion due to same stat as dps.
4. Ahh good, then I can retire from my build. I read of paladins unhappy with KoTC, EK unhappy with Fatesinger, monks unhappy with GMoF, and Rogues unhappy with SD, and hybrids unhappy with hybrids, so I am just stepping in to fill a void. There are definitely better rogue assassin players.
5. For solo, bluff and feint do help a lot on red names though. I just usually group, where I can't use them or the mobs I'm tanking will spin and kill the squishies behind them. So I end up just not skilling them or putting them on hotbars.
6. Heh, good tip, but I can't do this solo clearing groups out its too slow, or grouped as the tank. :)
7. Yes, better rogue assassins than I use these other methods. I use unstealthing/restealthing since it uses less hotbar space.

Rogues have a lot of things they can do, I just don't end up finding as much of it fitting hotbar space for a tank playstyle. Probably because rogues weren't designed as tanks. But then U51 hit, and people didn't find dps builds they were happy with. Since only tank, healer, or dps roles are available, and rogues definitely aren't healers, I just sorta crammed them into tank as best I could. With enough grease it seems to sorta fit though.

Now that Legendary Rally +2 multiplier has been fixed, T5 LD as a SWF dps also opens up.

All that being said, my rogue assassin can roll up to a pure combat legendary raid and solo it as a longer quest. Heh. ;)

[VinoeWhines]

Now lets quickly take a break from gearing to share with you the actual best combat use of stealth.

Hey Tillow, your concepts are always appreciated and interesting.
But actually the best combat use of stealth in R10, is sneaking up to a mob, any non deathwarded mob, and assassinating his buddy and sneaking away and having his partner swing around nervously trying to find out what took out his partner, the paranoia in their actions is quite amusing and quite sad as they are next on the menu of being taken out.

Though if for any odd reason, your spotted and "the gig is up" then ya, those chains can be a beast for AOE, with D.C.

They patched cut the strings already but before you were able to dance Reapers, Red Names, Champs and my Rogue would Hell Ball them out of existence in one shot. The whole group, it was their last Dancing With The Stars rendition.


Pre U51, the best use of stealth was to make a shadow puppet, shadow phase and Consume the mobs down and Execute the remaining ones standing.
No rhyme or reason why they nerfed Shadow Dancer the most of all the Epic Destiny Trees, making it the weakest of the bunch. It's just pitiful. If they didn't have the time to do the pass right they should of just left it alone and worked on it, just like they plan to work on E.D's. for Artificer, Warlock and others.

[Tilomere]

Agree to disagree on stealth!


On another post, one of the players said, "Ya I can't sneak around and kill stuff, so I recommend going full into Unyielding Sentinal Tier V, then Legendary Dreadnaught Tier IV Dire Charge aggro every mob in room Dire Charge them and cleave them till there are no more." That doesn't sound like a stealth player, he changed his play to Barbarian/Paladin and threw a cosmetic skin and called it a Rogue. Sounds more like a Fighter/Barbarian/Melee Paladin to me check box playstyle. Oh but wait the icon shows Rogue so The Kids Are Alright...

Heh, I hear ya! Fortunately for me, I happen to like the barbarian playstyle.

[VinoeWhines]

Agree to disagree on stealth!

I'll concede that you disagree; besides... every one is entitled to define a word to mean something else, I think the stealth you speak of is more a Taunt enemies.




Heh, I hear ya! Fortunately for me, I happen to like the barbarian playstyle.

I think it is interesting to bring other playstyles to a class and form it into it's Class Pre's. I enjoy the Casting aspects of builds and was sad to see this go only to a spliced Mechanic Rogue in Artificer(casting) and not get grown into the Mechanic Tree. (we had mechanical dogs before, but ddo gave it to Artificers now only)

Though in looking over your postings, I didn't see specifically a break down in "Tank" studies in what you view is part of the Tank features. I know you weren't looking to possibly dissect this build, but I think it would make a case for an interesting read and case study on why things work with either gear/enhancements/feats and Epic Destinies.

You are proficient in putting together a cobble of theories and would be ideal in the write ups you present.
Requesting this specific part of your build may help others to draw out a part of your build which you aspire to create and play.

What specifically are the "Tank" parts of your build? Do you equip a shield to go along with it?

I guess the breakdown of the Tank part would be -

Which specific parts of this build is put aside for: Tank(synergies?)

Feats:
Enhancements:
Gear:
Weapons:
Epic Destinies:

[Tilomere]

Which specific parts of this build is put aside for: Tank(synergies?)


Feats: Slippery mind to make up for lower will save, Defensive roll explained above, and Scion of Feywild to self-heal better are the defensive feats picked. You master's touch a shield, so shield proficiency isn't needed. Epic Fort and Reflex are tank feats to absorb spell hits and stun attacks.
Enhancements: There is a lot of dodge for tanking built into assassin, less in acrobat talked about above, and some in horizon walker and SDK chains. A key tanking concept here is just stuffing as much as you can in the 50% remaining life of defensive roll.
Gear: Winter 4 set is used to tank, and I show the raid swaps to double MRR vs. reflex and pick up more elemental % absorb when needed. Some tanky augments are used and shown.
Weapons: Weapon was picked due to slowing mobs down, which reduces their damage and ability to move to other players.
Epic Destinies: Unyielding Sentinel is tank, which is more than half the ED points. I talk about how this cuts magic damage in half due to absorb %, and how to start using renewal and the temp hp strike at level 20 against red names. 450% threat from US combined with dire charge into chains AoE really makes aggro simple.

There was planned a follow up build, For a Few Flowers More, that uses a shield full time, but I'm not there yet! This one only uses a shield when it has to deal with evasion-prohibited reflex raid damage. Some raid bosses were intentionally designed to not allow evasion characters to tank them, like the dragon in KT, so for those you have to use a shield. I'm not done testing, but I'll toss my thoughts below this in a separate post if you want to try it.

Generally to tank dungeons, you need to take reduced damage, which we do for both physical and magical hits, and if you are squishier like a pure 20 rogue assassin, it helps to pile in a bunch of AoE CC and burst, which stealth use makes more consistent. You also want a few cooldowns like uncanny dodge and undying vangaurd when you need them. Some healing helps for soloing, which we also have. Good saves, which we also have. Solid hp/prr/mrr which we also have. There is a bug that came out after I put this build up where reaper spell points are giving hp instead, increasing the hp on tanky builds by 800 or so, but that's not in screenshots.

[Tilomere]

nerfed in u57

[Saekee]

Have you experimented with epic assassin’s kiss on the chain attacks? It has an extra multiplier that might make up on the lower damage die

[Tilomere]

Have you experimented with epic assassin’s kiss on the chain attacks? It has an extra multiplier that might make up on the lower damage die

Not at all. The damage is fine on it, and it has assassinate. I just didn't want to spend points to make it sentient, and wanted the CC on kukri as well for tanking.

Updated OP to talk about EDs at 20, and taking draconic for no-fail 1 saves against disintegrate 1 shots. This puts your EDs 20-26 at US/LD/Draconic until you can pick up the Epic Fortitude feat.

Also updated OP to add a trick at end for boss killing speed.

[MalarKan]

Ok in curious... I need a breakdown of your stats lol
Dex96?? Huuuge

[Tilomere]

20 Base
7 Levels
8 Tome
7 Past Lives = 3 Racial + 2 Heroic Completionist +2 Racial Completionist ?
26 Gear = 13 Enhancement + 5 Insight + 3 Quality + 2 Profane + 2 Festive + 1 Exceptional
4 Buffs = 2 Yugo + 2 Guild (Ship)
14 Enhancements = 4 Assassin 4 Acrobat 1 SDK 5 Reaper
10 Sentience

With LD action hero and enhanced bloodrage on kukri your combat stats are a tad higher than pictured.

[VinoeWhines]

...


42212HP in Reaper
2777 out of Reaper
Is this with the Reaper Bug?

where is the 1435HP breakdown from?
Breakdown
PRR?
AC?

Thanks again

[Tilomere]

No bug, the HP adjustments is the 20% Unyielding Sentinel + 25% Epic Defensive Fighting +10% Winter hp adjustment. Oh, and full reaper tree including con bonuses x that adjustment is the difference between reaper and normal. 900 ish reaper hp x 1.55 = 1400 ish.

Here is AC breakdown, this is for For a Few Flowers More, original has more dex and less shield AC and is about the same. Feat bonus is from past lives, Misc bonus is from destiny and enhancement trees, mostly US, and other sources. I don't know the exact breakdown.

https://i.postimg.cc/9mH9grVT/Screen-Shot-2021-12-05-125618-0.jpg

PRR breakdown is:

50 Epic Destiny (15 LSM + 15 C3 LD + 5 C2 GMoF + 5 Divine Bulwark + 10-30 Deific Resilience (Deific Warding Feat)
36 Past Life Divine + PDK
99 Gear: 33 Enhancement + 30 Artifact + 21 Light Armor BaB 21 + 9 Quality + 6 Mythic
5 Greater Shield Mastery
21 Sentience ish
18 Enhancements and misc I have no clue where ish

Updated For a Few Flowers More (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/528353-For-a-Fist-ful-of-Flowers?p=6484516&viewfull=1#post6484516) and put a link in OP! Also updated OP for newer players to not take the +threat, and instead reduce threat.

[Tilomere]

Playability nerfed in 52.1

Taking build down, msg me if you were on it and want a copy to finish your life.

[Tilomere]

Attempt at SD dps caster, build doesn't work, because scaling on paranoia is too low:

https://i.postimg.cc/W2WMv3FN/Screen-Shot-2022-01-08-171514-0.jpg

100 damage sneak x 7 spell power = 700 damage spell, 1500 crit. 4k Shiradi Proc.

[Marcb81]

Attempt at SD dps caster, build doesn't work, because scaling on paranoia is too low:

https://i.postimg.cc/W2WMv3FN/Screen-Shot-2022-01-08-171514-0.jpg

I'm really sorry to hear this. I wanted to try a druid 20 with T5 NW for SA dice and EQ for proccing this along with other stuff. Guess will just stick to RDA, Acid Ring, Stay frosty, etc.

[Tilomere]

nerfed in 52.1

Taking build down, msg me if you were on it and want a copy to finish your life.

[Tilomere]

nerfed in 52.1

Taking build down, msg me if you were on it and want a copy to finish your life.

[Bjond]

To use a shield SWF you need to multiclass to bard, and if you do that you lose the C5 crit multiplier in assassin, so you have to pick up your two multiplier from barb
VKF works instead of FB for similar DPS and more tankiness if you take Mist Stalker V. Whether it's more or less DPS depends on your Melee Power and Double Strike without VKF and whether you can afford a full 41 AP. My builds tend toward VKF.25 < FB (5~8%) and VKF.41 > FB (2~4%). I never have enough for VKF.41, though. :(

This would let you take either more Bard (more spells, longer buff durations), more Rogue (sneak & rogue bonus feats), or replace Barb with Fighter for more general feats and/or splitting AP between VKF & Stalwart.

Another bit to maybe consider is more TMP HP via things like Ice Barrier (cloak of winter) and Demonic Shield (demon consort or baphomet). Both proc frequently enough to be useful when tanking and I don't think TMP HP effects D.Roll trigger. Consort can be perfected, too, but I suspect it might take longer to Tetris it into your gear setup than pulling a nebula (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/529307-Hey-Devs-Please-Adjust-the-Nebula-Fragment-Drop-Rate).

[Tilomere]

VKF works instead of FB for similar DPS and more tankiness if you take Mist Stalker V. Whether it's more or less DPS depends on your Melee Power and Double Strike without VKF and whether you can afford a full 41 AP. My builds tend toward VKF.25 < FB (5~8%) and VKF.41 > FB (2~4%). I never have enough for VKF.41, though. :(

This would let you take either more Bard (more spells, longer buff durations), more Rogue (sneak & rogue bonus feats), or replace Barb with Fighter for more general feats and/or splitting AP between VKF & Stalwart.

Another bit to maybe consider is more TMP HP via things like Ice Barrier (cloak of winter) and Demonic Shield (demon consort or baphomet). Both proc frequently enough to be useful when tanking and I don't think TMP HP effects D.Roll trigger. Consort can be perfected, too, but I suspect it might take longer to Tetris it into your gear setup than pulling a nebula (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/529307-Hey-Devs-Please-Adjust-the-Nebula-Fragment-Drop-Rate).

Doublestrike caps at reaper boost, so not interested in VKF for quick strike/mist V especially since I don't want any more buttons to hit, prefer the +2 passive multiplier from FB and handaxe swashing.

I like the barb for run speed and damage reduction.

I want to redo the gear at some point, to build in permanent spell absorb planned swapping for the melee sets, and temp hp would rock if it also fits in, but that makes the tetris more complex.

[fuzzee]

What are your thoughts on acceptable replacements for the Tharne goggles/bracers for Proczilla? I was thinking Amethyst Loupe and Armbands of the Silenced Ones, respectively. You'd lose the Tharne set bonus but otherwise it seems like these items cover the base stats pretty well. Thoughts?

[Tilomere]

What are your thoughts on acceptable replacements for the Tharne goggles/bracers for Proczilla? I was thinking Amethyst Loupe and Armbands of the Silenced Ones, respectively. You'd lose the Tharne set bonus but otherwise it seems like these items cover the base stats pretty well. Thoughts?

Ya, you could do that. A well-rounded tanky-self-healing melee like the melee rogues in prior posts or a druid bear or paladin or US barb can solo VoD for the runes.

Wallwatch + Saltmarsh would also work, if you wanted to drop out all the raid gear. Most of the damage is procs, so raid gear is just nice, but it doesn't add very much dps.

[Spyder1228]

Is this build still viable? I saw a few posts up that said given recent updates it is not viable. I want to reroll my current steel maiden into something that can tank/off-tank but also do some damage. tired of playing a pure tank and not being able to play anything outside of groups lol. The idea seems like a lot of fun.

[Tilomere]

Is this build still viable? I saw a few posts up that said given recent updates it is not viable. I want to reroll my current steel maiden into something that can tank/off-tank but also do some damage. tired of playing a pure tank and not being able to play anything outside of groups lol. The idea seems like a lot of fun.


The melee builds are fine, but I brought the ranged ones down.

[Bjond]

Is this build still viable?

The melee builds are fine, but I brought the ranged ones down.

My D.Roll builds both still work and one is VERY similar to Tilo's here (just trade FB for Kensei) for CM+1 instead of Barbarian's CM+2. Zero RPLs = not enough AP for Chains & CM+2, but it does have stalwart and more dodge.

For tough stuff, I'd recommend swapping Handaxe for Labrythine. Less DPS (by roughly ~13% iirc), but CON+8 is a pretty tanky buff with close to 100% uptime and the salt proc works with the chain for more certain AE/CC.

It's too bad filigrees aren't glued to the Jewel for a one-kit "en mass" swap between weapons. The way sentient was done rather kills the entire concept of creating alternate gear sets. It would have opened up a whole new set of dialogue lines for the jewels, too -- ripping them out of their home and stuffing 'em in a new place.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

... Reminds me of trying out those flowers from the DDO store as a weapon ...

[Bjond]

(edited by Tilomere; 10-12-2022) nerfed in u57

Ah, what killed it? Looks like you edited between preview-1 and preview-2. I could see preview-1 ripping out it's 25%, but from what I recall, both Flowers had AP in a T5 with a bonus in preview-2. AP was squeaky tight, though. Couldn't afford an extra 2 AP?

[Tilomere]

SSG proposed to nerf this build via dodge changes and then again via reduced % hp in US and then again with reduced % in Ravager. So this type of build is being targeted, which is of minor concern because it is protected by the player base trying to melee.

More concerning, super specialization of tanking by increasing fighter/paladin hp is going to further require super mobs. For example, fighter is getting ~20% tankier:
T5 Stalwart Thick of Battle replaced with a flat passive 100% threat bonus & grants 60 hit points
T5 - Against the Odds grants 60 hit points in addition to it's original effect
Core 4 Stalwart - Stand Fast - grants a 10% quality bonus to hit points in addition to it's original effect
T3 Stalwart Defensive Stance increased to a 25% competence bonus at rank 3.

When fighter and paladin tanks get 20% tankier, mob damage will go up 20% to compensate either directly or by group reaper difficulty selection to remain a threat to such a tank, which means a melee tanky build like this gets wrecked.

Allowing and promoting super tanks is what caused the lack of melee survivability due to requiring super mobs. That led to the creation of this build and running a rogue in US in the first place. Now that they are promoting super tanks even more, which will lead to even stronger mobs, and just because you maintain or give melee a small amount of base HP doesn't mean it isn't going to get even worse for them as a result of this patch. I'm dropping out of melee and going sorc. This build window is closing, and I also took down the rogue assassin framework, because that is closing as well.

I'm also looking at the very interesting logic in which a sorc nuking a group faster than an imbue build can kill a single mob is completely acceptable.

Sorc will allow me the added defense of range, added CC of mass hold, and added spell power to compensate for increased incoming mob damage that will hatch from even more super tanks, while simultaneously allowing bypassing the current idiosyncrasies of player base reasonably expected damage, understanding of melee issue sources, and self-healing penalty.

They nerfed offhand versatility for healing the rogue assassin, so also moving to sorc for more base spell power/crit/multiplier to self-heal. I could have left the S&B version up, but I started moving to sorc anyways 3 patches ago and it doesn't seem like SSG likes this type of build so I'm taking it down.

[Bjond]

SSG proposed to nerf this build via dodge changes and then again via reduced % hp in US and then again with reduced % in Ravager. So this type of build is being targeted, which is of minor concern because it is protected by the player base trying to melee.

More concerning, super specialization of tanking by increasing fighter/paladin hp is going to further require super mobs.

Yeah, I'm worried about melee/tanking fun in general due to these things happening over on Lam. Dodgy DPS tanks are a TON of fun to play. I've played them in every MMO from EQ1 to here. Fat lumps of mitigation that can't do anything other than squat and intimidate are the epitome of "not fun".

The sad part is that D&D has no such thing as a tank. ALL melee are more or less "tanks". They hold the front line. If you look at armor stats, regardless of what type of armor you wear, your total AC ends up the same or perhaps off by at most 1~2 AC.

The more DDO rushes to embrace "squat tanks", the further it gets from real D&D.

All that aside, I do wish you'd left the posts up for historical reference. Lots of very nice ideas in those builds that people could benefit from to make new builds even if the exact ones you had up no longer work.

I wish I had the RAP for a 15x5 D.Roller, but alas, no. So, I made a couple low-PL variants. They're a lot of fun to play and more accessible to the general populace. Just thinking about full build posting triggers my procrastination gene, but here's the gist:

13 Rogue 3 Monk 4 Fighter, D.Roll Stick/16x4, ~50% base dodge. FOTW:T5 SD:T3 GMOF:T3
11 Rogue 3 Swash 6 Fighter, D.Roll H.Axe/15x4, ~42% base dodge. US:T5 EA:T4 SD:T3

Both started with 0 EPL and used slight variations of those builds to acquire 12x EPL. Both are SDK, but if Tabaxi were around when I made the monk, I'd have done that instead. Having displace is "kinda nice" for leveling, but does nothing for high reaper. Both have tanked R10 quests, but the swash is better at it IF it swaps to Labrythine for Salt. Swash's EDs are rigged for R1 "raid tanking". It used FOTW for questing.