View Full Version : The New Epic Destinies.
Azoyhn
11-12-2021, 05:47 PM
I had a chance to level up a few toons, and run a majority of the trees as a major choice. I did not care for some of them, others felt incredibly strong. I have noticed a trend following Lynnabel's trees costing the most out of the others.
The breakdown for each tree following with just the Tier 5 costing is listed here.
Divine Crusader (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's.
Legendary Dreadnaught (Steel's) has a straight cost of 5 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Draconic Incarnation (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 11 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Grandmaster of Flowers (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 12 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Magus of the Eclipse (Steel's) has a straight cost of 7 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Shiradi (Steel's) has a straight cost of 8 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Unyielding Sentinel (Torc's) has a straight cost of 8 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Fatesinger (Torc's) has a straight cost of 7 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Fury (Torc's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Shadowdancer (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Exalted (Steel's) has a straight cost of 11 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Primal Avatar (Torc's) has a straight cost of 12 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Some of the costs are rough, some of them are not. Is there any particular reason Dreadnaught costs 5 while Grandmaster costs 12? Why is there such a big difference for that tree compared to the others. Grandmaster & Primal is also pretty expensive just for the Tier 5's. Could these be toned down somehow, or the other trees need to help match each other. I don't think a really decent tree (i.e Dreadnaught) needs to cost the least out of all the trees. I hope some adjustments are along the way.
droid327
11-12-2021, 06:10 PM
You dont have to, nor probably should you, take all the T5s in your main tree. Its not so much "more cost for all T5s" as much as "more choices to spend your points on"
If you want to compare the value of 1-point vs 2-point vs 3-tier enhancements, you might have more of an argument there
Azoyhn
11-12-2021, 06:44 PM
You dont have to, nor probably should you, take all the T5s in your main tree. Its not so much "more cost for all T5s" as much as "more choices to spend your points on"
If you want to compare the value of 1-point vs 2-point vs 3-tier enhancements, you might have more of an argument there
My only arguments are there are 19-20 crit multis that cost 1 (dreadnaught) and 19-20 crit multis that cost 2 (grandmaster), that's why i'm making a specific post.
droid327
11-12-2021, 07:59 PM
My only arguments are there are 19-20 crit multis that cost 1 (dreadnaught) and 19-20 crit multis that cost 2 (grandmaster), that's why i'm making a specific post.
Yeah that should always be 1 point...they're all identical in practice, at L30 you have one weapon and that's what will get the bonus. Honestly the whole "only certain weapons" conceit is superfluous, you won't be using a tree unless you were using the right weapon style for it anyway
Archfae
11-12-2021, 10:09 PM
Divine Crusader (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's.
Draconic Incarnation (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 11 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Grandmaster of Flowers (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 12 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Shadowdancer (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Lynn's Destinies: Average of 10.75 points with range of 10-12 points.
Primal Avatar (Torc's) has a straight cost of 12 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Unyielding Sentinel (Torc's) has a straight cost of 8 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Fatesinger (Torc's) has a straight cost of 7 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Fury (Torc's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Torc's Destinies: Average of 9.25 points with range of 7-12 points
Legendary Dreadnaught (Steel's) has a straight cost of 5 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Exalted (Steel's) has a straight cost of 11 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Magus of the Eclipse (Steel's) has a straight cost of 7 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Shiradi (Steel's) has a straight cost of 8 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Steel's Destinies: Average of 7.75 points with range of 5-11 points.
Now you might argue that this doesn't matter, that one set of T5s shouldn't have to have the same total cost for all abilities as another T5, but extreme disparities between 5 and 12 should not exist. Each point should roughly carry the same power increment just in different ways and niches.
If the abilities are undercosted (low cost but higher power relative to their cost), then they are the optimal choice until points become plentiful (maybe when cap is 40). When abilities are overcosted (high cost but lower power relative to their cost), then they become suboptimal until the total amount of points becomes plentiful.
If the abilities are fairly costed, then trees with more points available have more choices and a higher ceiling to the amount of power you can squeeze out of them (they also scale better with points available). Personally, I think Torc's trees' T5s are the closest to where they should probably be. Draconic, Primal Avatar, Shadowdancer, Exalted, and Grandmaster all feel horribly overcosted. I mean wings in exalted is a 1 point ability as a T3 core, but it's a 2 point ability in T5 for draconic. The spellpower boost in draconic is 2 points but in magus its more spellpower and only 1 point.
Other tree like magus are weak despite having low costs at T5.
A balance pass is horribly needed after bugs are fixed.
Dark_Lord_Mary
11-12-2021, 10:22 PM
There is no uniformity in the trees despite the skills being all cookie cut from a uniform of WoW
Tank - DPS - Heal
Forget that DDO is Dungeons and Dragons
DC casters, Trappers, CCers don't matter.
Nor does it matter that some epic moments are 20 seconds, some 30, some 40 - or
the point buy to do the lvl 30 most useful and fun stuff, that is completely exclusive now
to 1 destiny, costs who knows what
I do not like this system at all - the old epic destinies felt EPIC - they were fun,
they gave you something to do @ lvl 30 filling Karma, the Twists were key to numerous
strange builds, as was the ability to change your destiny on the fly - and many of the
old trees contained nuggets of greatness in them that are severely missed.
Mass Frog is only lvl 30 now and only if you go T5 in the worst epic destiny ive ever seen - utterly useless; but what if you want frog?
Same thing with the spell Weird - we will never see anyone cast it because it is T5 in Shadowdancer - the second most useless tree ever created. Utterly useless
Evean
11-12-2021, 10:34 PM
I had a chance to level up a few toons, and run a majority of the trees as a major choice. I did not care for some of them, others felt incredibly strong. I have noticed a trend following Lynnabel's trees costing the most out of the others.
The breakdown for each tree following with just the Tier 5 costing is listed here.
Divine Crusader (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's.
Legendary Dreadnaught (Steel's) has a straight cost of 5 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Draconic Incarnation (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 11 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Grandmaster of Flowers (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 12 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Magus of the Eclipse (Steel's) has a straight cost of 7 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Shiradi (Steel's) has a straight cost of 8 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Unyielding Sentinel (Torc's) has a straight cost of 8 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Fatesinger (Torc's) has a straight cost of 7 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Fury (Torc's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Shadowdancer (Lynn's) has a straight cost of 10 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Exalted (Steel's) has a straight cost of 11 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Primal Avatar (Torc's) has a straight cost of 12 points while taking all the Tier 5's
Some of the costs are rough, some of them are not. Is there any particular reason Dreadnaught costs 5 while Grandmaster costs 12? Why is there such a big difference for that tree compared to the others. Grandmaster & Primal is also pretty expensive just for the Tier 5's. Could these be toned down somehow, or the other trees need to help match each other. I don't think a really decent tree (i.e Dreadnaught) needs to cost the least out of all the trees. I hope some adjustments are along the way.
Either I don’t understand, or your “math” makes no sense.
Comparing the number of enhancement points from one tree to another is completely meaningless, without taking into consideration what you’re spending them on.
Which then requires you compare the value of a healing spell, to a damage skill, to a group buff.
This is a perfect example of apples and oranges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges).
———
As an aside, can you please clarify, what differentiates a “straight” from a “rough” from a “not rough” cost?
———
EDIT: Think of it this way; a gun, a bowl of soup, and a plane ticket, all have different dollar values. Trying to “make them cost the same” is impossible.
Azoyhn
11-12-2021, 11:25 PM
Either I don’t understand, or your “math” makes no sense.
Comparing the number of enhancement points from one tree to another is completely meaningless, without taking into consideration what you’re spending them on.
Which then requires you compare the value of a healing spell, to a damage skill, to a group buff.
This is a perfect example of apples and oranges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges).
———
As an aside, can you please clarify, what differentiates a “straight” from a “rough” from a “not rough” cost?
———
EDIT: Think of it this way; a gun, a bowl of soup, and a plane ticket, all have different dollar values. Trying to “make them cost the same” is impossible.
Or, you aren't taking time to read through the handiwork of this thread. If you'd actually read you can understand what I underlined in my response to the first question. Some of the Tier 5s with 19-20 crit multiplier cost 2. Some of them cost one. They need to make it a uniform across the trees that deal with the extra multiplier. In a sense, putting 2 points in some trees and 1 point into others makes absolutely no sense. Hope that helps.
Straight is across the board Tier 5 cost. It is counting the first tier 5 to the last tier 5. Rough is how bad the cost is of the tree, and not rough is how cheap it is to collect the tier 5s. Hope that helps, too.
That analogy absolutely makes no sense in this scenario. :)
Here's my question to you, Evean. If some of the Epic moments are cheaper than others- does this mean they're worse if you're valuing power or usefulness? I can tell you Action Hero is an amazing Epic Moment but has 1 action point? Meanwhile you've got Dragonform that's meh at best that costs 2? Action Hero is 40 seconds, but Turn of the Tide is 20 seconds? What about that shines for an epic moment? Please answer my questions. I get that Tide is for the whole party but should fall under the flatline of 30 seconds. 20 seconds is not enough for that specific ability.
Evean
11-13-2021, 09:20 AM
Or, you aren't taking time to read through the handiwork of this thread. If you'd actually read you can understand what I underlined in my response to the first question. Some of the Tier 5s with 19-20 crit multiplier cost 2. Some of them cost one. They need to make it a uniform across the trees that deal with the extra multiplier. In a sense, putting 2 points in some trees and 1 point into others makes absolutely no sense. Hope that helps.
I understand your initial post, and your first response, just fine. That’s you shifting the goal posts. Comparing the “total cost of one set of tier 5s to another” (original post) is not the same thing as “a specific 19-20 crit skill costs 1 here, and 2 there” (first reply).
Straight is across the board Tier 5 cost. It is counting the first tier 5 to the last tier 5. Rough is how bad the cost is of the tree, and not rough is how cheap it is to collect the tier 5s. Hope that helps, too.
“Straight” makes sense, but it’s not clear what you mean by “how bad the cost is” or “how cheap it is to collect.”
That analogy absolutely makes no sense in this scenario. :)
Then you don’t understand the analogy.
Here's my question to you, Evean. If some of the Epic moments are cheaper than others- does this mean they're worse if you're valuing power or usefulness? I can tell you Action Hero is an amazing Epic Moment but has 1 action point? Meanwhile you've got Dragonform that's meh at best that costs 2? Action Hero is 40 seconds, but Turn of the Tide is 20 seconds? What about that shines for an epic moment? Please answer my questions. I get that Tide is for the whole party but should fall under the flatline of 30 seconds. 20 seconds is not enough for that specific ability.
I’ve already answered this question. You can’t place different things on the same interval scale. You’re essentially asking “How many kilometers per hour is 27 degrees celsius?”
You’re trying to reduce an infinite number of variables to a single unit of measurement, and then rank-order them all on the same scale. It’s both theoretically and mathematically impossible.
On top of that, many of your evaluations are subjective, and therefore meaningless. First, what does “meh” actually mean? Second, what if someone else considers your “meh” to be “lit and woke”?
I’ll try another analogy: Imagine a horse, and a house. One gets you from point A to point B, the other keeps you warm at night. Which is worth more, rapid transit, or a good nights sleep? How many kilometers of travel are equal to one week of comfort?
———
EDIT: I'll expand on the horse:house metaphor, and try to place it in the context of DDO. Imagine a 1 point enhancement that gives you +10% movement speed. And a 2 point enhancement that adds 1d6 force damage to your melee attacks.
It’s not possible to compare one to the other in an effort to equalize their enhancement point cost, as you’re comparing movement speed to melee damage.
I’m not certain I can put it any simpler than that. Hopefully it makes sense now. If not, we can always try again tomorrow!
Azoyhn
11-13-2021, 03:11 PM
I understand your initial post, and your first response, just fine. That’s you shifting the goal posts. Comparing the “total cost of one set of tier 5s to another” (original post) is not the same thing as “a specific 19-20 crit skill costs 1 here, and 2 there” (first reply).
“Straight” makes sense, but it’s not clear what you mean by “how bad the cost is” or “how cheap it is to collect.”
Then you don’t understand the analogy.
I’ve already answered this question. You can’t place different things on the same interval scale. You’re essentially asking “How many kilometers per hour is 27 degrees celsius?”
You’re trying to reduce an infinite number of variables to a single unit of measurement, and then rank-order them all on the same scale. It’s both theoretically and mathematically impossible.
On top of that, many of your evaluations are subjective, and therefore meaningless. First, what does “meh” actually mean? Second, what if someone else considers your “meh” to be “lit and woke”?
I’ll try another analogy: Imagine a horse, and a house. One gets you from point A to point B, the other keeps you warm at night. Which is worth more, rapid transit, or a good nights sleep? How many kilometers of travel are equal to one week of comfort?
———
EDIT: I'll expand on the horse:house metaphor, and try to place it in the context of DDO. Imagine a 1 point enhancement that gives you +10% movement speed. And a 2 point enhancement that adds 1d6 force damage to your melee attacks.
It’s not possible to compare one to the other in an effort to equalize their enhancement point cost, as you’re comparing movement speed to melee damage.
I’m not certain I can put it any simpler than that. Hopefully it makes sense now. If not, we can always try again tomorrow!
I'm on my phone so I'll be responding to the paragraphs via numbers.
#1.) I am not shifting my point of view to certain enhancements, I've simply stated an example of what I'm referring to when it comes to the Tier 5s and the comparisons. If you want me to point out some other differences, let's relay back to my other point, the Epic Moment comparisons. Why does a really good Epic Moment cost 1 point, and others that are good and dull costing twice as much? (2). i.e Steelstar's tree is very good for point usage and how well it blends with the tree. Grandmaster is very expensive, but also flows with monk well, there's a 7 point different between a very good tree, and a very good tree. Both are worth bang for buck, but one of them is cheaper than the other. Yeah?
#2.) Effective Cost vs usage. Am I getting every ounce of usefulness out of an enhancement? Once again, this relates back to the original 19-20 multiplier, I'm obviously not getting my ap worth of a 19-20 out of Grandmaster compared to a 19-20 out of Dreadnaught which is only 1 point. That is "how cheap it is" versus "how bad the cost is". Another example is Tier 5 Draconic, the propelling wings. That is an absolutely awful ability for the cost of it. Every 15 seconds is nothing for 2 destiny points. That is an example of how bad the cost is. Yeah? Are you finally following?
#3.) I did understand the analogy but you're misrepresenting what I've originally posted and followed up on in a previous reply.
#4.) You are absolutely right, you run a negative energy based Dragon form in Draconic and a fire based Dragon form in Draconic and come back to me with which one was better, because shadow ain't getting any usage out of Dragonform being marked the way it is. All of them are different and have different vibes, but some certainly don't flow as well as others. I had to drop 3 of the Epic Moments because they weren't worth the bang for the buck. It's how it goes man, and its how it flows. I was not originally trying to reduce the variables down to a singular strand, you're glossing over the fine print of the differences in point values between the trees.
#5.) This conversation is just going back and fourth and will be ended here as I am not going to follow up on my point of view and points. Have a nice day, Evean.
Evean
11-14-2021, 05:52 AM
I'm on my phone so I'll be responding to the paragraphs via numbers.
#1.) I am not shifting my point of view to certain enhancements, I've simply stated an example of what I'm referring to when it comes to the Tier 5s and the comparisons. If you want me to point out some other differences, let's relay back to my other point, the Epic Moment comparisons. Why does a really good Epic Moment cost 1 point, and others that are good and dull costing twice as much? (2). i.e Steelstar's tree is very good for point usage and how well it blends with the tree. Grandmaster is very expensive, but also flows with monk well, there's a 7 point different between a very good tree, and a very good tree. Both are worth bang for buck, but one of them is cheaper than the other. Yeah?
Nope. First, you’re shifting the goal posts again.
Initial post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/528284-The-New-Epic-Destinies?p=6479502&viewfull=1#post6479502): You’re discussing total cost of tier five.
First response (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/528284-The-New-Epic-Destinies?p=6479527&viewfull=1#post6479527): “My only arguments are there are 19-20 crit multis that cost 1… and 2.”
First response to me (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/528284-The-New-Epic-Destinies?p=6479582&viewfull=1#post6479582): Much of this is still unclear to me, but you appear to be trying to subjectively quantify (paradox) several different things with a single unit of measurement, and then equalize them somehow.
Second response to me (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/528284-The-New-Epic-Destinies?p=6479785&viewfull=1#post6479785): “I am not shifting my point of view to certain enhancements, I've simply stated an example…” Now we’re talking about epic moments, their value, and their cost?
Which is it? The total cost of one group of tier five enhancements compared to another? The cost of 19–20 crit multipliers? The “value” of one skill compared to another? When changing your position, be mindful, there’s written documentation of our conversation only a few inches away.
#2.) Effective Cost vs usage. Am I getting every ounce of usefulness out of an enhancement? Once again, this relates back to the original 19-20 multiplier, I'm obviously not getting my ap worth of a 19-20 out of Grandmaster compared to a 19-20 out of Dreadnaught which is only 1 point. That is "how cheap it is" versus "how bad the cost is". Another example is Tier 5 Draconic, the propelling wings. That is an absolutely awful ability for the cost of it. Every 15 seconds is nothing for 2 destiny points. That is an example of how bad the cost is. Yeah? Are you finally following?
Definitely not following. “Cheap,” “bad,” “awful.” These are subjective evaluations. Different people have different opinions. What you consider to be overpriced and useless, might be someone else’s favourite. You’re trying to quantify your own subjective opinions, and then asserting others should share your point of view. I’m not certain either of these can be achieved.
Also, it’s not clear how comparing Grandmaster to Dreadnaught (19–20 crit) explains “how cheep it is versus how bad the cost is.” My guess is you’re simply trying to say:
“The same skill has different costs in different trees.”
If this is correct, then I apologize for not understanding your initial attempts to explain this simple point.
#4.) You are absolutely right, you run a negative energy based Dragon form in Draconic and a fire based Dragon form in Draconic and come back to me with which one was better, because shadow ain't getting any usage out of Dragonform being marked the way it is. All of them are different and have different vibes, but some certainly don't flow as well as others. I had to drop 3 of the Epic Moments because they weren't worth the bang for the buck. It's how it goes man, and its how it flows. I was not originally trying to reduce the variables down to a singular strand, you're glossing over the fine print of the differences in point values between the trees.
Moot. Subjective interpretation.
#5.) This conversation is just going back and fourth and will be ended here as I am not going to follow up on my point of view and points. Have a nice day, Evean.
And you as well.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.