Monk/Wizard -multiclass advice - 12/8 or 8/12?

[Truthspeaker]

A real quick overview for perspective - I'm a casual player (as evidenced by my post count and the fact that although I have over a dozen characters, not a single level 30 and I've been playing on-and-off for years). I typically build-smith for fun just to see how a particular combination plays, and I've found that a poorly built WF Monk/Wiz (8/12) played well up through 20. I've TR'd him now as a Human, and started w/ Monk to level 6 to see if - by level 6 - I could have Spring Attack and Whirlwind Attack (and if the latter is as bad as some posts say it is).

Bottom line, it is indeed possible, and I'm having fun with him, but here's the dilemma:

- a 12/8 Monk/Wizard combo would give me G2WF and GMoF (as well as access to the improved MA attack in Epic content which requires min. 12 monk). I feel the added damage dice may be needed since they nerfed adding die via leveling (now only plus to attack from what I can tell). I play him almost exclusively as a melee but enjoyed having the ability to teleport or dimension door around. I used the Pale Master tree for Vampire (taking the on crit level drain enhancement), then went Eldritch Knight for the Tensors capstone and Kinetic Burst whirling attack. The downside of this approach is that I'll get far fewer spell points, even if I get Mental Toughness 2x as my Wizard bonus feats. I only really need Death Shroud and Stone Skin for survivability, but at level 8 I'll only get one more level 4 spell. That'd be either Dimension Door or Negative Energy Burst most likely.

- going 8/12 on the other hand I know has more than ample SPs and spells, but misses out on GMoF.

Anyway, I've seen some very good insight in several of the posts I've read, and would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks in advance!

[sebastianosmith]

I've got a dwarf 12/8 monk/wiz built along the same lines. Obviously never going into reaper levels and will likely have trouble in epic, but he's a blast to play. All I have to add is picking up wraith in addition to vampire provides a significant level of survivability when sneaking about. Most of the spells I use are for crowd control, protection or travel with extra points in the PM tree for reducing metamagic costs.

Lately, I've been tinkering with the idea of respecing to see how Vistani Knife Fighter would fair over handwraps at higher heroic levels. I've got a bank toon full of daggers.

Anyhoo, for a flavor build this split is fun to play, pretty easy to gear and an OK solo build.

[Truthspeaker]

I appreciate the quick reply. I am glad to hear that the 12-Monk route is viable.

I am looking forward to chaining WWA and Eldritch Tempest (assuming I can survive once I've wrangled them all around me long enough to fire both off ;)).

What I don't have experience is what will proc off handwraps or UA abilities on these multiple strikes. We shall see!

[Mindos]

https://ddowiki.com/page/Master_of_Forms
https://ddowiki.com/page/Grandmaster_of_Forms
https://ddowiki.com/page/Monk_stances

You only "need" one level of monk, you can take adept, master and GM of forms as regular feats then if you want.
https://ddowiki.com/page/Adept_of_Forms

[voxson5]

I appreciate the quick reply. I am glad to hear that the 12-Monk route is viable.

I am looking forward to chaining WWA and Eldritch Tempest (assuming I can survive once I've wrangled them all around me long enough to fire both off ;)).

What I don't have experience is what will proc off handwraps or UA abilities on these multiple strikes. We shall see!

There's all sorts of fun wiz/monk builds, my personal fav is 18 wiz / 2 monk as with enough past lives, tomes & gear, it can be a somewhat reasonably competent hybrid melee dps and DC caster (necromancy & enchantment are popular focuses).

More wizard levels also means more buffs, more melee DPS via EK's spellsword dice, more healing from death aura, longer buffs etc.

It doesn't matter if you have 1 monk level or 20 monk levels, some idiot dev/manager decided that they'd do the same base damage.

Of course you do get extra [w] dice at 18/20 cores in Shintao, but it also means that the levels of monk are more for feats (including forms feats), abilities like abundant step, fast movement, & so forth.

Also worth considering what enhancement trees you have access to? Harper means you can push pretty much everything into INT, Falconry means you can ignore wizard DC casting but really push your monk stunning fist & special attacks (and upcoming GMoF upgraded strikes).

I'd recommend enjoying a coffee with a notepad and ddowiki - write down all the things that you want out of the toon and plan out what you'd need to get there. Planning when to take feats, when to take various classes, when you'll get the BAB to qualify for stuff like whirlwind, and your AP spend.

AP is generally pretty tight on a wiz/monk. You'll likely want most t5's from EK meaning a minimum of ~37 points, 12 points in harper for INT to hit/damage/stance, 13 in PM for both neg amps & your favorite undead form. This leaves 18 points for stuff like shintao (centred PRR etc), ninga spy (dodge & dodge cap). Heshin is a easy 1 ap speed for a little bit of PRR & MP.

It's a fun class combo :)

[Truthspeaker]

And this would be the reason I keep coming back to DDO - it's such a good, helpful player base. Thanks to both of you for the replies as well.

A couple of thoughts (that I'll continue over that cup of coffee). I really wish the damage dice nerf hadn't occurred. It kind of hamstrings the non-avid player and you're right in that it discourages additional levels. Especially when - as mentioned - the forms mastery can be purchased as additional feats.

However, I'm very feat-poor in my current planned build. Even though will have a total of 13 at level 20 (if I'm adding correctly - regular+human extra+monk bonus+wizard bonus), the only ones in flux are the two wizard bonus feats. The others will purchase all req'd for whirlwind attack, that feat itself of course, power attack, and all the 2WF mastery up to Greater. Since I'll only have 12 levels of Monk, I'll use my last one to buy GMoF. Combat Expertise may not even be useless if I'm in Earth form, we'll have to see.

I think I'll take this fella to 20 as a 12/8 Monk/Wiz and see how badly that handicaps the undead healing. I'll report back when complete with observations. Please feel free to chime in with any additional thoughts, and great gaming regardless!

[voxson5]

IMO extend for all your buffs & auras, and quicken for negative energy burst.

You might also prefer GM ocean stance, pretty easy to tap out to 40% dodge with monk levels, whirlwind qualifiers, ninjaspy enhancements, stance and a bit of gear - add that to displacement & any source of incorporality and you'll have a decent physical defense even before AC. High AC takes a lot of work.

[SpardaX]

My personal current preference is 18 Wizard / 2 Monk.
It only has 1 PL on it, the previous build I did of 12 Monk / 7 Wizard / 1 Fighter for Death Aura and 12 Monk stuff. Back then, you could not choose your shroud, so I was left as a zombie death knight, but since now you can choose your shroud, that build could work too. (1 fighter for an extra feat, but if you want 12/8 that will definitely work too)

But yea now that Iv played 18/2, I would totally recommend that instead. It's my strongest character without more than 1 or 2 PLs, and it is super fun to play. Harper really made it possible.
This is the whole build as it currently exists after self buffing with Wizard buffs:

https://imgur.com/a/tDVeXOp

Feats are the TWF chain, Power attack, Cleave, Adept / Master / GMaster of forms, Insightful Reflexes, Stunning Fist, Improved Critical Bludgeon, Overwhelming Critical, and Epic Reflexes. Wizard bonus feats are: Mental Toughness (not really needed, I barely ever run out of SP), Extend, Quicken, and Eschew Materials.

As I said, the only PL on it is a monk one, which simply gives +1 to damage rolls. So it's not any QoL or anything like that, and the build works great in at least Elite - R1 content or lower.

Note: It has a +1 Racial AP tome, and a +1 Universal AP tome. But losing the point in Feydark, and putting the 2 points that make the +1 Int out of Racial somewhere else would be a small loss. And if you were curious, I run in Water stance personally for Dodge + Saves + Wisdom for Stunning Fist DCs. I basically run in Water stance on every monk I have. The bonus to Dodge and Saves just makes it seem better than the others. Dodge is basically the best avoidance defence in the game.