Question for the devs regarding the state of the Tempest tree

[TFerguson]

Tempest used to be very good, never top anything but always decent. For some reason the baffles my mind their has been a steady stream of nerfs directed at it which doesn't make sense as they were never over performing.

- Dance of death going from 4 targets to 3 - not the big of a deal to be honest since lining up 4 targets was tactically difficult
- Adding strike through to any THFer so the basically have Dance of Death going 24x7 while dealing more damage.
- Off-hand double-strike change nerfed rangers realative to other classes when TWFing (though why they would TWF anyway is a mystery).

With the new Epic Destines anyone can get 100% off-hand attacks. This leaves tempest with just the below:

- Dance of Death - which has been nerfed and isn't that great right now
- Dual Perfection - sure, 100% stat to the off-hand is nice, but compared to a fighter getting 60ish more Melee power?

At minimum please consider adding back the +25% off-hand double-strike in the capstone.

Thank you for your consideration and putting up with use grumpy old farts who don't like change.

[Tilomere]

Nvm.

[Taxidiotis]

I'm with OP's concern for the state of tempests; though I did not interpret your "question" to the devs.

The fact that Tilo's response is to suggest a tempest split build is evidence enough that tempests need alt classes to make a tempest... Every tempest knows that the tempest capstone makes a tempest; and should not be passed up...

New EDs will nullify Meld and Dire Charge; as no tempest in their right mind would go up the new LD tree; and meld will no longer be Meld. Tempests need a golf bag of wep selections to approach various enemy lines; and to limit the LD T5 19-20 multiplier to single wep type is sub-optimal to say the least.

Feywild sets are a terrible set for any light melee (tempests/rogues) since there is no light summer armor; leaving fragmented gear-outs to get to 7-piece summer (that and 7-piece spring is atrocious for both Str and Dex tempests).

Enough on that...my main has been a sexy dexy tempest for many years; and I agree with OP that their value has been observed to be diminishing over the past 5-6 updates and looks to continue with new EDs. Any twf melee will be able to accomplish the same output of today's pure tempest; leaving tempest gone with the way of monks and dinosaurs.

Tempests primary attribute is a lot of small-to-medium sized damaging strikes; versus heavy melee slower but larger sized strikes. This attribute value is diminishing with the new ED structure, as every melee will be able to achieve this.

One way to make existing tempests viable and competitive is to crank out massive PLs, racials and Reaper points to force tempests to perform; but they still struggle to shine. Of course, this leaves new players building tempests far behind the curve and they would naturally gravitate toward a twf fighter; or other.

So to continue with OP's intended "question" to devs;
Have devs observed or acknowledged tempest's reduced value as a pure class?
Do devs have a plan to make a pass on tempest tree to keep up as a viable light melee option (or reducing 2hf strikethru/etc)?
Are devs willing to take any suggestions for advancement to tempests? (How about increasing tempest's offhand doublestrike to ~75%; or splattering more melee power into tree; or increasing W on weps; or increasing attack speed 5-10%)

I hope this thread makes it onto dev's radar...

[Steelstar]

We don't have plans for specific Tempest changes right now. In the last data set we pulled, pure Tempest wasn't the top meta DPS build out there, but it held its own with most other DPS-focused weapon builds, indicating that it was not in need of specific adjustment.

Granted, there have been a few shifts in the game since that data, though smaller checks have suggested that their place in the overall meta should not have changed to a degree that would warrant a change either (especially as other styles experienced similar shifts). Update 51 is going to shift a lot of the Epic sphere as well, so it would be an especially bad idea to make changes to Heroic trees at the moment. That said, when we have time for high-level examinations of builds again after Update 51, Tempest is something we can keep a specific eye on.

[Taxidiotis]

We don't have plans for specific Tempest changes right now. In the last data set we pulled, pure Tempest wasn't the top meta DPS build out there, but it held its own with most other DPS-focused weapon builds, indicating that it was not in need of specific adjustment.

Granted, there have been a few shifts in the game since that data, though smaller checks have suggested that their place in the overall meta should not have changed to a degree that would warrant a change either (especially as other styles experienced similar shifts). Update 51 is going to shift a lot of the Epic sphere as well, so it would be an especially bad idea to make changes to Heroic trees at the moment. That said, when we have time for high-level examinations of builds again after Update 51, Tempest is something we can keep a specific eye on.

Noted with Thanks Steelstar. We are glad you're on the tempest radar; and recognize possible devaluation. I understand resources are not available to look into tempest with upcoming pending events. I will definitely be looking forward to integrating U51 into tempest; as will many other tempest players. I will save this chat once U51 workload settles and re-engage at a later date with any findings.

[Tilomere]

The fact that Tilo's response is to suggest a tempest split build is evidence enough that tempests need alt classes to make a tempest... Every tempest knows that the tempest capstone makes a tempest; and should not be passed up...

New EDs will nullify Meld and Dire Charge; as no tempest in their right mind would go up the new LD tree; and meld will no longer be Meld. Tempests need a golf bag of wep selections to approach various enemy lines; and to limit the LD T5 19-20 multiplier to single wep type is sub-optimal to say the least.

Feywild sets are a terrible set for any light melee (tempests/rogues) since there is no light summer armor; leaving fragmented gear-outs to get to 7-piece summer (that and 7-piece spring is atrocious for both Str and Dex tempests).

DoD makes a tempest, the capstone was never needed. That's why people commonly use paladin as the base class for tempest builds.

Replace Meld with 8 rogue improved uncanny dodge. Use FI to make your weapons invulnerable to damage, then use the same pair with LGS Vacuum/Salt + Gaurdbreaking on everything. Main hand is most of your damage due to chains use, don't worry about losing 19-20 multiplier on offhand.

Feywild summer 7/winter 4 set is amazing for anyone using a weapon, since you use magma armor for anyone using a weapon. There is a light winter, that would open up a spring armor pen belt as alternative gearing.

Follow DC around with ED pass. Mobs can hit for 1 shot range on much tankier uberpletionists, it's a bad idea to allow them attack.

[Taxidiotis]

DoD makes a tempest, the capstone was never needed. That's why people commonly use paladin as the base class for tempest builds.

This is OP's point; 2hf with strikethru are constantly "DoD'ing", effectively devaluing tempests innate DoD with a cooldown to boot. And since new EDs will effectively replace the tempest offhand strikes, why build a tempest? Yes we agree, tempest Core 5+ is not needed. That's the point of OP's concern. A twf 15fighter/5 tempest effectively does what a pure tempest does with more melee power, etc...wheres the value of pure tempest...with monks?


Replace Meld with 8 rogue improved uncanny dodge.

Meld is/will be a global issue, not specific to a tempest's ability; which probably why OP did not call meld out...that's a separate topic reserved for any and all melees. Surely the universal answer to meld is not taking 8 rogue in all melee builds...or get a hold of uncanny dodge somehow? But I digress...


don't worry about losing 19-20 multiplier on offhand.

Feywild summer 7/winter 4 set is amazing for anyone using a weapon, since you use magma armor for anyone using a weapon. There is a light winter, that would open up a spring armor pen belt as alternative gearing.

Follow DC around with ED pass. Mobs can hit for 1 shot range on much tankier uberpletionists, it's a bad idea to allow them attack.

Gear-out is player unique; and doesn't really approach the specific concerns of a devalued tempest. i.e. I know pure rogues that gear out 99% identical gear my tempest does, with great success (and neither one of us could remotely get near to doing what we do in feywilds sets). I do not care to open a new discussion of gear-out optimization as that is reserved for the player's playstyle (same goes for meld). i.e. I guarantee feywild set is missing some damage-dealing attributes that is unacceptable to my aggressive play-style...and yes, I do worry about offhand 19-20 multiplier. Bottom line; regardless of your gear-out or mine; globally, tempests innate abilities in the tree appear to be devalued. OP can chime in, but I believe those are the concerns to diehard tempest players.

[Tilomere]

This is OP's point; 2hf with strikethru are constantly "DoD'ing", effectively devaluing tempests innate DoD with a cooldown to boot.

THF and SWF builds were constantly AoEing with CAF/acrobat extra target strikethrough/fighter defensive sweep extra target strikethrough/cleaves/6 sec holy ret :( well before the strikethrough THF remake. There is no devaluing tempests power because the way SWF and THF AoE changed.

SWF and THF builds used to spam 3 second (cough) CAF, which got nerfed into an ability that is no longer used. THF and SWF had their uniquness nerfed and made to be more like tempest. Uniqueness, absolutely I agree was nerfed. Power, well, melee of any style well built is kinda nutz right now.

The Tempest capstone and C5 wasn't unique though, it was just more raw stats of the type you already had.

DoD has a cooldown, but it also has more strikethrough than THF, and you can fill the cooldown with chainsx2. Should they change it to be passive and add strike through equal to THF of the same feats? Honestly I would support a multiselector that makes every ability in the tempest tree weaker but passive.

Now my reaper clonklock warlock/cleric/monk AoN build, yea, that work of art you can say got devalued. Mechanically, best build ever... :(

[Ganak]

We don't have plans for specific Tempest changes right now. In the last data set we pulled, pure Tempest wasn't the top meta DPS build out there, but it held its own with most other DPS-focused weapon builds, indicating that it was not in need of specific adjustment.

Granted, there have been a few shifts in the game since that data, though smaller checks have suggested that their place in the overall meta should not have changed to a degree that would warrant a change either (especially as other styles experienced similar shifts). Update 51 is going to shift a lot of the Epic sphere as well, so it would be an especially bad idea to make changes to Heroic trees at the moment. That said, when we have time for high-level examinations of builds again after Update 51, Tempest is something we can keep a specific eye on.


Appreciate this engagement!

[TFerguson]

Can somebody translate that gibberish into English?

[Hobgoblin]

Can somebody translate that gibberish into English?

which part did you not get? if steel i can attempt. if tilo, while i speak fluent tilo it makes my head hurt and dont want to think that hard

[noinfo]

We don't have plans for specific Tempest changes right now. In the last data set we pulled, pure Tempest wasn't the top meta DPS build out there, but it held its own with most other DPS-focused weapon builds, indicating that it was not in need of specific adjustment.

Granted, there have been a few shifts in the game since that data, though smaller checks have suggested that their place in the overall meta should not have changed to a degree that would warrant a change either (especially as other styles experienced similar shifts). Update 51 is going to shift a lot of the Epic sphere as well, so it would be an especially bad idea to make changes to Heroic trees at the moment. That said, when we have time for high-level examinations of builds again after Update 51, Tempest is something we can keep a specific eye on.

Putting both crits range and multi in the same tree like every other classes would not be out of line. Forcing heavy into DWS is not really fair and removes any other tree choices.

[Vish]

tempest post top kobold times

dont know what youre talking about

[TFerguson]

tempest post top kobold times



In what parallel universe?

[TFerguson]

which part did you not get? if steel i can attempt. if tilo, while i speak fluent tilo it makes my head hurt and dont want to think that hard

I think you answered your own question :)

[Seph1roth5]

Devs think tempests are in a good place dps-wise. Not sure if "data set" is damage numbers, number of people playing tempest, or what.

Frankly, I didn't like my tempest life at all. It felt weak doing aoe and it was a chore to keep it up every 12 seconds. The only time I felt remotely good was 1 on 1 vs bosses...but that's not tempest at all, that's just haste boost and 2wf. If tempest's niche/strength is being able to do both, it definitely needs some boosting.

It's basically a combat style with near 100% uptime. Imagine having to activate 2hf or centered every 15 sec lol.

[Taxidiotis]

tempest post top kobold times

dont know what youre talking about

I don't believe that for half a second. Was someone trolling you during your kobold beat-down by ranging him off-screen? LOL awesome troll!

[Monkey_Archer]

Tempest used to be very good, never top anything but always decent. For some reason the baffles my mind their has been a steady stream of nerfs directed at it which doesn't make sense as they were never over performing.

- Dance of death going from 4 targets to 3 - not the big of a deal to be honest since lining up 4 targets was tactically difficult
- Adding strike through to any THFer so the basically have Dance of Death going 24x7 while dealing more damage.
- Off-hand double-strike change nerfed rangers realative to other classes when TWFing (though why they would TWF anyway is a mystery).

With the new Epic Destines anyone can get 100% off-hand attacks. This leaves tempest with just the below:

- Dance of Death - which has been nerfed and isn't that great right now
- Dual Perfection - sure, 100% stat to the off-hand is nice, but compared to a fighter getting 60ish more Melee power?

At minimum please consider adding back the +25% off-hand double-strike in the capstone.

Thank you for your consideration and putting up with use grumpy old farts who don't like change.
The DoD nerf was reasonable. The offhand doublestrike proxy nerf was necessary to let non ranger TWFs compete.

The upcoming offhand strike proxy nerf is more complicated.

From a pure dps perspective, its probably unnecessary as tempest is not at the top currently. From a defensive perspective your comparison to fighter is unfounded. Fighters that can compete with tempest dps are complete glass cannons, and will be even more so after meld gets removed. Tempest still has higher standing dodge, evasion, only slighly lower prr/mrr after the stat squish, and more importantly Elaborate parry (not to mention better multiclass options now, namely with rouge as above for even more dodge spamming).

I agree with Steelstar that Ranger is probably not a top priority, but worth monitoring. Personally, I'd be more concerned with TWF as a whole though. TWF dps is generally reliant on turn the tide to compete with adrenaline THFs (adrenaline to offhand strike would help fix this issue :rolleyes:) and general performance is usually reliant on shadowdancer. I haven't found the time to do any in depth testing yet however, and we're still waiting on fatesinger, so its wait and see for now.

[TFerguson]

Devs think tempests are in a good place dps-wise. Not sure if "data set" is damage numbers, number of people playing tempest, or what.


I'd pay real money to see their data.

[Taxidiotis]

I'd pay real money to see their data.

So would the devs...

[Xaxx]

So would the devs...

bazinga?...

[Tilomere]

Can somebody translate ....?

TFerguson: My Tai Chi is old and weak.

Tilomere: Here is a lesson in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

Taxidiotis: Your Kung Fu is Weak Fu, the old way of Shaolin Kung Fu is the only way.

Steelstar: Kung Fu is fine, L2Fu.

Taxidiotis: Other people's Kung Fu is just as strong as my kung fu? That can't be right.

Tilomere: Kung Fu flows like a river, and there was never only one way.

Taxidiotis: Other people knowing Kung Fu makes my Kung Fu less special, and Shaolin Kung Fu is the best!

Tilomere: Yes, other people used to know Tae Kwon Do, but now everyone is Kung Fu fighting!

Ganak: Those cats were fast as lightning!

TFerguson: I don't know the lyrics!

Hobgoblin: Me either.

noinfo: Nerf Kung Fu styles and make them all the same.

Vish: In fact, it was a little bit frightening!

TFerguson: I doubt the expert timing!

Seph1roth5: I doubt everything. Is any of this real?

Monkey_Archer: Hums along melodically while finger drumming desk.

Xaxx: Roll Credits.

[PrinceOfAsphodel]

^ That translation was fantastic.

On a note more relevant to the topic, I think too many different levels exist in this game for them to all be balanced by one change. I'm of the opinion that the game should prioritize balance changes aimed at the highest level of play since that's the area where mechanics will be abused the most. This kind of change can confuse some people if it looks like they're fixing something that wasn't broken to begin with when in reality, it was, just not for the majority of players.

[TFerguson]

So devs . . . take a look at Tempest again. They are the patron saints of mediocrity.

[Taxidiotis]

I think devs inadvertently (or intentionally idk) cast Tempest into the DPS support role.

Their greatest value in raids would be boss debuffing so the big whomp-um dps (barbar & bow-builds) can do bigger whomp-ums. Tempests simply do not have their own whomp-um style that synergizes well with new EDs. Seems like EDs are geared toward ranged, two handed or melee classes that should not inherently do better at twf than a tempest. (Has anyone put together a twf pure kensai fighter? I would love to see the numbers vs a pure tempest. I bet my DDO sub the twf kensai will out-perform.)


Tempest can solo okay, but not great; by controlling the battlefield in a utility-based ED configuration.

In a balanced group, that battlefield control is not needed by a Tempest; leaving them with average (or mediocre as TFerg noted) damage output. With a 400k plat ED changeup, I suppose they could compete...but then once the party disbands, they're left with unbalanced EDs (because Epic Moments share cool-downs between trees)...so they're forced to cough up another 400k plat to return to their utility config. Besides, if ED tree specifically targets the only 2 classes that can cast Ram's Might...it would probably behoove those 2 classes to take advantage...right? Except...

The Tempest tree itself leans Dex. But, as of late, there are not many good finessable weps since the keen crunch update. Strongth weps are superior. And, Fury ED appears to coax tempests into taking the Primal twf line-up vs Adrenaline.

Devs did an OUTSTANDING job of laying down all kinds of traps littered throughout the EDs and latest gearing options. Traversing those land mines has been fun (I have seen grown men break down into shambles falling for the traps!); but I think somehow, not by design, but coincidence; tempests got the short end. They should probably get in the moth ball line with monks.

[Assassination]

I think devs inadvertently (or intentionally idk) cast Tempest into the DPS support role.

Their greatest value in raids would be boss debuffing so the big whomp-um dps (barbar & bow-builds) can do bigger whomp-ums. Tempests simply do not have their own whomp-um style that synergizes well with new EDs. Seems like EDs are geared toward ranged, two handed or melee classes that should not inherently do better at twf than a tempest. (Has anyone put together a twf pure kensai fighter? I would love to see the numbers vs a pure tempest. I bet my DDO sub the twf kensai will out-perform.)


Tempest can solo okay, but not great; by controlling the battlefield in a utility-based ED configuration.

In a balanced group, that battlefield control is not needed by a Tempest; leaving them with average (or mediocre as TFerg noted) damage output. With a 400k plat ED changeup, I suppose they could compete...but then once the party disbands, they're left with unbalanced EDs (because Epic Moments share cool-downs between trees)...so they're forced to cough up another 400k plat to return to their utility config. Besides, if ED tree specifically targets the only 2 classes that can cast Ram's Might...it would probably behoove those 2 classes to take advantage...right? Except...

The Tempest tree itself leans Dex. But, as of late, there are not many good finessable weps since the keen crunch update. Strongth weps are superior. And, Fury ED appears to coax tempests into taking the Primal twf line-up vs Adrenaline.

Devs did an OUTSTANDING job of laying down all kinds of traps littered throughout the EDs and latest gearing options. Traversing those land mines has been fun (I have seen grown men break down into shambles falling for the traps!); but I think somehow, not by design, but coincidence; tempests got the short end. They should probably get in the moth ball line with monks.

Well I hope they do something for tempests and light melee characters soon. Feel we are in a bad spot.

I tried to play my tempest in fury tree, and do what i was being forced to do... play strength base and even barb rage.. It felt awful.

I'm now playing a barb, just got to cap... think i can't stand it... Game is forcing us to go ranged builds... Sickening really.

The keen nerf hit tempests pretty hard, all of our decent longswords and scimmie's had it. That hurt.

I'm tempted to try TWF kensai with a monk splash and go GMOF... I don't know. They hurt my delicate tempest feelings.

Perhaps rangers will be granted the ability to dual wield brooms, and we can sweep up after the real classes of ddo complete raids and content we used to stomp...

TommyFerguson was right, rangers now worship the lord of mediocrity... but they don't have to like it!!!!

[TFerguson]

Well I hope they do something for tempests and light melee characters soon. Feel we are in a bad spot.

I tried to play my tempest in fury tree, and do what i was being forced to do... play strength base and even barb rage.. It felt awful.

I'm now playing a barb, just got to cap... think i can't stand it... Game is forcing us to go ranged builds... Sickening really.

The keen nerf hit tempests pretty hard, all of our decent longswords and scimmie's had it. That hurt.

I'm tempted to try TWF kensai with a monk splash and go GMOF... I don't know. They hurt my delicate tempest feelings.

Perhaps rangers will be granted the ability to dual wield brooms, and we can sweep up after the real classes of ddo complete raids and content we used to stomp...

TommyFerguson was right, rangers now worship the lord of mediocrity... but they don't have to like it!!!!

The 25% off-hand should come back in the capstone. No reason at all for us not to have it.

[spifflove]

(Devs please) Add a Bear to the Tempests tree. Let the bear have 200% threat generation and twf. Every enhancement you get in the tree the bear also gets.

[TFerguson]

(Devs please) Add a Bear to the Tempests tree. Let the bear have 200% threat generation and twf. Every enhancement you get in the tree the bear also gets.

That's a terrible idea.

[spifflove]

I want a bear. V-V

[Enderoc]

Can somebody translate that gibberish into English?
Basically it's another...the content gets harder to solo as I attempt harder content so blame the class/enhancement thread

[TFerguson]

I want a bear. V-V

I don't judge anyone's preference :)

If you want a bear play a druid. Making ranger's druids doesn't fix the tempest problem.

[spifflove]

I don't judge anyone's preference :)

If you want a bear play a druid. Making ranger's druids doesn't fix the tempest problem.

You know that’s not the same thing.