Best weapon for Bard, to Swashbuckle or not to?

[Graceunderpressure]

One of our group has TR'd into Bard and most likely Bard 18 Rouge 2

Trying to help him build for DPS and when I look at the weapons that get crit bonuses with Swashbuckling it seems to me that putting a few points in Tempest and using Scimitar would outweigh any benefit of using any of the lesser weapons even With the improved crit bonuses.

Am I missing something here?

[Discpsycho]

With most Swash-able weapons, Swashbuckling brings their base critical profiles to 18-20 x3 (except Light Picks, which are 19-20 x4). But this is DDO, where the exceptions are exceptional.

First, there are many weapons with natively expanded critical profiles. Unfortunately the previous wiki page is now redirecting to a less useful one, or I'd give you a source rather than a (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skullsmasher_(Level_14)) few (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King) examples (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Assassin%27s_Kiss). Using one of those, your profile expands (duh), depending on which you're talking about.

If your buddy is sticking with 18 Bard / 2 Rogue, he should dig through his bank for one of those. But the other trick is to select a weapon that only a bonus to critical multiplier (rapier, kukri) or critical range (handaxe, light pick) from Swashbuckler. Since this stance provides a competence bonus it won't stack with most other sources, but these other weapon types are the exception, provided you pick up the opposite bonus elsewhere: crit range for rapier and kukri, multiplier for handaxe or light pick. The most common route is to use an exemplary handaxe (Forgotten Axe or Axe of the Unseen Blow) with at least 5 levels of Barbarian for Focused Wrath (FB T5). Kensai grants +1 multiplier with only an 11 point investment, freeing up T5 for Warchanter or another class entirely.

[Scope333]

Swashbuckle with the Magmatic Reaver from the Dryad and Demigod Raid. Dripping Magma, armor piercing and Flamebitten add a lot of extra damage. Going Tiefling Scoundrel adds even more.

[AbyssalMage]

One of our group has TR'd into Bard and most likely Bard 18 Rouge 2

Trying to help him build for DPS and when I look at the weapons that get crit bonuses with Swashbuckling it seems to me that putting a few points in Tempest and using Scimitar would outweigh any benefit of using any of the lesser weapons even With the improved crit bonuses.

Am I missing something here?
Remember Bard's can become proficient with all Martial Weapons through Master's Touch. No need to dip into Ranger (unless that is how they want to play their Bard). Last I knew Hand Axe and Rapier were META for endgame. But I saw more 2H Warchanter Builds because they provided substantially more DPS.

[cru121]

it seems to me that putting a few points in Tempest and using Scimitar would outweigh any benefit of using any of the lesser weapons even With the improved crit bonuses.

No.

What kind of bard is your friend building? How far are you going (1-20, 1-30 or 15-30?). Do you need rogue skills? Do you have fancy universal enhancement trees and exotic races? Do you have cool swashy toys like Tiefling Assassin Blade or Forester Brush Hook?

[FuzzyDuck81]

The most common route is to use an exemplary handaxe (Forgotten Axe or Axe of the Unseen Blow) with at least 5 levels of Barbarian for Focused Wrath (FB T5).

I've run this combo for a while, on a 13bard/5barb/2fighter (add in improved shield bash & a touch of vanguard to boost dps higher & get missile shield & stunning shield, ignore actually using rage completely), running in shadowdancer & it has some great dps as well as decent self healing, avoidance defenses - originally i went with tiefling scoundrel with ash imprisonment for that handy crowd control and it's a lot of fun, though i'm now levelling a version of it as a shadar-kai to have more solid AoE dps with their recently improved chain attack which is looking even better - axe of the unseen blow is positively murderous with this combo in heroics, rocking a basic 15-20/x6 crit profile even before you take into account special attacks & oh hey, there's that swashy attack that gives +12 threat in exchange for -1 multiplier :D

[LightBear]

The buckler in the off hand should have guard breaking on it, also look out for solipsism and put them on a helmet.

Depending on level, a rapier with an alternate profile should give you superb DPS.
Alternatives are short sword when pdk, hand axe when dwarf or a kama when human and you can afford the exotic weapon proficiency.
See to get your fort bypass high enough.

[Fivetigers33]

Am I missing something here?

Neither bard nor rogue has access to the Tempest tree. :p Using a scimitar your crit profile will be 15-20 x2, whereas nearly all the swashbuckling weapons end up at 15-20 x3 when you also take the corresponding improved critical feat. Bards that don't swashbuckle are nerfing their own melee dps.

As mentioned above, the Magmatic Reaver is arguably the best bard endgame weapon. Another strong option is taking the feat Swords to Plowshares and using a Sickle, which will put you at 14-20 x3 (for comparison since you mentioned tempest, this is the same as a Ranger using Scimitars).

[unbongwah]

One of our group has TR'd into Bard and most likely Bard 18 Rouge 2
Okay that eliminates the heavily-multiclassed builds which use fighter 6 or barbarian 5 with handaxes (or light picks) to access stacking crit bonuses.

Trying to help him build for DPS and when I look at the weapons that get crit bonuses with Swashbuckling it seems to me that putting a few points in Tempest and using Scimitar would outweigh any benefit of using any of the lesser weapons even With the improved crit bonuses.
I don't see why you would conclude that. Level 3 Tempest core does make scimitars Swashbuckle-able; however the Swashbuckling stance provides no crit bonuses to scimitars, because they're all weapon-specific. So scimitar would be stuck at 15-20/x2 critical threat range unless you add crit bonuses from other trees. I think I theory-crafted ranger 12 / barb 5 / bard 3 with Focused Wrath + Adv Sneak Attack for 14-20/x4 just to prove it could be done, but there's no good reason to do it that way. EDIT: especially when bard 3 / barb 5 using handaxes is 15-20/x5.

For bard 18 / rogue 2, the only extra crit bonuses besides Swashbuckling which stack are Swords to Plowshares (+1 crit range for sickles and kamas), Destroyer of the Dead (+1 crit multiplier for light maces), Pulverizer (+1 crit range for blunt weapons, does not stack with Exploit Weakness), and Celestial Champion (+1 crit range to anything). Plus the generic "+1 Critical Multiplier on rolls of 19-20" bonuses like Overwhelming Critical, Bladesong, etc.

Alternatively build for daggers + Vistani Knife Fighter to take advantage of the extra doublestrike, Melee Power, etc. in that tree.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Alternatively build for daggers + Vistani Knife Fighter to take advantage of the extra doublestrike, Melee Power, etc. in that tree.

This would be a good option, and the new goldcursed dagger from saltmarsh has that nice "on crit" proc (instead of the more nebulous "a chance") with a solid DC on it for crowd control.

[Fivetigers33]

Alternatively build for daggers + Vistani Knife Fighter to take advantage of the extra doublestrike, Melee Power, etc. in that tree.


This would be a good option, and the new goldcursed dagger from saltmarsh has that nice "on crit" proc (instead of the more nebulous "a chance") with a solid DC on it for crowd control.

I'm in this build right now and I'm not liking it nearly as much as I thought I would from a DPS point of view. TRing back into swashbuckling this weekend.

[CeltEireson]

A couple of things to note:

Exploit weakness tends even things out a little in terms of crit range in that the higher your crit range the less effective it is - if your crit range is only 20 then 90% of the time you will gain an insight bonus to crit range (assuming you only miss on a 1), if your crit range is 15 - 20 then it will add to the stack 65% of the time. I'm sure someone out there could do a mathematical model to work out what it equates to for different weapons but I am not that person. So increasing your crit range by one will not increase the rate of crits by what you'd expect as exploit weakness will go off a little less often.

With perfect single weapon fighting you double your vorpal range so you get more benefit from weapons that have effects that go off on a vorpal - so sovereign vorpal is fairly useful for bard's in epic levels.

[Graceunderpressure]

No.

What kind of bard is your friend building? How far are you going (1-20, 1-30 or 15-30?). Do you need rogue skills? Do you have fancy universal enhancement trees and exotic races? Do you have cool swashy toys like Tiefling Assassin Blade or Forester Brush Hook?

Some really good info from ALL, much appreciated!

Reason I thought Scimitar was how easily 15-20 x 2 can turn into 14-20 x 4 with feats ect. Just wasn't sure How good Swashbuckling was.

He is N/G Elf (likes playing Elfs)

Currently Bard 3/ rouge 1. I was the trapper last life and he wanted to try it this life.

We went all the way in last life, this life will prob depend on how much fun everyone is having with their new builds. If FUN, will prob go to 30+ again. If not so much fun, will prob go 20 then TR.

No fancy trees, no exotic races. He Does have the Tiefling Assassin Blade.

Current stats at L4

Str 23 (+6)
Dex 17 (+3)
Con 15 (+2)
Int 13 (+1)
Wis 15 (+2)
Cha 20 (+5)

He took improved shield bash at L1 before I could talk him out of it lol

Then SWF at L3.

Was thinking of changing his L1 Feat to either Dodge or Shield Mastery.

Now, if he was to cruise along using the Tiefling Blade and wanted to switch up to Rapier later on, he would need martial weapons feat?

At this point I'm trying to get a Character build going for him so he has a guide on what feats/ enhancements to take.

Dodge/ Mobility and all SWF Feats plus Crit feats are obvious ones. Ned to look deeper to see what others to fill in the gaps.

Really appreciate all the input and will answer more specific quotes as we go. Just chose this one for now because I wanted to get more basic info out there on his current status :)

[thedip]

Rogues get rapier prof as a class skill and so your friend will not need to use a feat to get it.

Have you thought about the Feydark illusionist tree to make more of CHA to hit/Damage; especially as the Spell Singer can get Magical Training as a Tier one enhancement.

[Bluenoser]

Fivetigers33 knows Bards, follow his advice :D

[cru121]

Tiefling Assassin Blade is a great news!
Feats: 6 Precision, 9 ISWF, 12 ICrit, 15 GSWF, 18 free
Considering he has Shield Bash, slap 11 AP in swashbuckler asap for buckler use.

[Graceunderpressure]

Rogues get rapier prof as a class skill and so your friend will not need to use a feat to get it.

Have you thought about the Feydark illusionist tree to make more of CHA to hit/Damage; especially as the Spell Singer can get Magical Training as a Tier one enhancement.

Great news on the Rapier. He doesn't have Feywild yet, so no access to tree ATM.

[Graceunderpressure]

Tiefling Assassin Blade is a great news!
Feats: 6 Precision, 9 ISWF, 12 ICrit, 15 GSWF, 18 free
Considering he has Shield Bash, slap 11 AP in swashbuckler asap for buckler use.

So use the Shield Bash over Shield Mastery? Thought Swashbuckling was the one instance where you can use Shield Mastery with SWF and get the Dbl strike?

[droid327]

I'm in this build right now and I'm not liking it nearly as much as I thought I would from a DPS point of view. TRing back into swashbuckling this weekend.

Why can't you swash with a dagger in vkf? Or you just mean at L3 you don't have the ap for both?

I pointed out that DR 10/Adam or whatever the gold skin effect would kinda make goldcurse pointless at low level...

[ianflaer]

before you TR make sure you have done all the Barovia quests on elite to get access to vistani knife fighter. VKF and dagger can be pretty good.

since you are doing rogue anyway why not spec for dex to hit and dam from assassin, then use VKF to increase power and use a single dagger. you can get that +1W damage pretty fast if you want. your CC DC's won't be great but this is a melee build. you want CC go spell singer. low blow is still great and hits almost everything. if you go gnome you can get some extra dodge cap. my guy is a drow and does pretty well. guard breaking on bucklers is very good and there's plenty of them out there but once you get to 30 Von Richten's cane is the way to got for a buckler. I have been using legendary goldcursed dagger to good effect but there are other options.

I ran shortswords and rapiers for a long time and enjoyed it, nothing wrong with them and the T Assassin's is a good one to start with. for epics get a (anything you can swash) of the Drow weapon master from House of Rusted Blades. Raid loot is obviously better but I have a hard time raiding so I don't rely on raid loot for builds. I used to like Legendary Moonwillow but it got it's extra damage taken away in stat squish and now it makes me sad. still trying to figure out a good endgame non-raid weapon. so far goldcurse dagger is winning. if they fix the legendary paralyzing on the SSS weapons envenomed blade could be better maybe but we have to wait for that.

good luck

[ianflaer]

So use the Shield Bash over Shield Mastery? Thought Swashbuckling was the one instance where you can use Shield Mastery with SWF and get the Dbl strike?

this is the way, swap shield bash for shield mastery ASAP and swashbuckle it

[cru121]

So use the Shield Bash over Shield Mastery? Thought Swashbuckling was the one instance where you can use Shield Mastery with SWF and get the Dbl strike?

Both are okay. Shield Mastery adds 3 doublestrike and 3 PRR. Improved Shield Bash grants up to 20% chance of an extra attack - with your shield.

The character won't have much room for improved/greater shield masteries; feats are tight. Maybe with a couple of fighter levels, this would change.

What I would actually do is retrain Improved Shield Bash to Precision and take Extend Spell at level 6, so that at level 9 he can extend those displacements and hastes. Or just stay with Improved Shield Bash. Bards don't have many ways to increase passive shield bashing % chance.


Ah and don't take Dodge. You get 10 "free" dodge from buckler use, few more points from swash cores and t1.. and reaper enhancements, if you guys have those.

[Fivetigers33]

Why can't you swash with a dagger in vkf?


You can definitely Swashbuckle and VKF. It was a poor assumption on my part because I'm currently doing TWF/VKF so that's what's on my brain and I didn't think anyone would use the Goldcursed dagger as their only weapon.

[Graceunderpressure]

With most Swash-able weapons, Swashbuckling brings their base critical profiles to 18-20 x3 (except Light Picks, which are 19-20 x4). But this is DDO, where the exceptions are exceptional.

First, there are many weapons with natively expanded critical profiles. Unfortunately the previous wiki page is now redirecting to a less useful one, or I'd give you a source rather than a (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skullsmasher_(Level_14)) few (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King) examples (https://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Assassin%27s_Kiss). Using one of those, your profile expands (duh), depending on which you're talking about.

If your buddy is sticking with 18 Bard / 2 Rogue, he should dig through his bank for one of those. But the other trick is to select a weapon that only a bonus to critical multiplier (rapier, kukri) or critical range (handaxe, light pick) from Swashbuckler. Since this stance provides a competence bonus it won't stack with most other sources, but these other weapon types are the exception, provided you pick up the opposite bonus elsewhere: crit range for rapier and kukri, multiplier for handaxe or light pick. The most common route is to use an exemplary handaxe (Forgotten Axe or Axe of the Unseen Blow) with at least 5 levels of Barbarian for Focused Wrath (FB T5). Kensai grants +1 multiplier with only an 11 point investment, freeing up T5 for Warchanter or another class entirely.

Balizarde, Protector of the King, that is a Very nice looking Blade! For some reason though, I thought Keen doesn't stack with Swashbuckling?

If Balizarde could work, I would most likely have him build towards getting it :)

[Tilomere]

This would be a good option, and the new goldcursed dagger from saltmarsh has that nice "on crit" proc (instead of the more nebulous "a chance") with a solid DC on it for crowd control.

If you are going to use dagger to make mobs helpless, make a 20 SDK rogue assassin, they have an additional crit multiplier with daggers, and additional sneak die which works on helpless, and better helpless damage from TA tree.

2 + 15 racial SDK Chains
41 Ass Dagger stuffs
12 + 1 Tome HW Dex trance
24 TA Dex/Threat Reduction/Helpless dmg/Dodge
1 VKF

Swash axe is a bit better damage though.

[SpartanKiller13]

If you are going to use dagger to make mobs helpless, make a 20 SDK rogue assassin, they have an additional crit multiplier with daggers, and additional sneak die which works on helpless, and better helpless damage from TA tree.

2 + 15 racial SDK Chains
41 Ass Dagger stuffs
12 + 1 Tome HW Dex trance
24 TA Dex/Threat Reduction/Helpless dmg/Dodge
1 VKF

Swash axe is a bit better damage though.

I suspect someone who doesn't own Feywild probably doesn't have 15 RAP and a UAP tome?

Still, fun build XD

[Graceunderpressure]

Also, and this will prob sound weak! lol

Can someone elaborate on the use of Precision? I have never taken it as a feat, because I assumed it was a single attack like sunder, but with 30 sec cool down which seemed useless.

Starting to think now that it must be a Constant attack mode for 30 second duration that can be cycled every 30 sec?

[Dilbon]

Precision is like Power Attack, when you turn it on it's on.

[Discpsycho]

Balizarde, Protector of the King, that is a Very nice looking Blade! For some reason though, I thought Keen doesn't stack with Swashbuckling?

If Balizarde could work, I would most likely have him build towards getting it :)

Close - Keen doesn't stack with Improved Critical.

Natively, rapiers have a crit profile of 18-20 x2. With Improved Critical that expands to 15-20 x2, and with Swash it becomes 15-20 x3.

Balizarde starts with 15-20 x3. It's Keen, so you can't get +3 range from Improved Critical, but it can still benefit from Swashbuckling's +1 multiplier. A crit profile of 15-20 x4 (before ED modifications) is pretty good.

Good luck finding a CITW group, I know they're pretty sparse on Argo

[FuzzyDuck81]

Also, and this will prob sound weak! lol

Can someone elaborate on the use of Precision? I have never taken it as a feat, because I assumed it was a single attack like sunder, but with 30 sec cool down which seemed useless.

Starting to think now that it must be a Constant attack mode for 30 second duration that can be cycled every 30 sec?

It's a stance.. cant use alongside power attack or greater rage (barbarian rage etc) but it boosts your to-hit & grants 25% fortification bypass, also swashbuckler tier 5 basically adds the benefits of power attack (extra +5 damage per hit, multiplied on crit) while precision is active. It also works with ranged combat. It's a very solid feat that I take on most of my non-raging melee & ranged characters.

[unbongwah]

He doesn't have Feywild yet, so no access to tree ATM.
Feydark Illusionist is now available from the DDO Store for 495 points.

[Graceunderpressure]

Precision is like Power Attack, when you turn it on it's on.

Then I'm really not understanding cooldown times.

If it's like Sacred Defender, turn it on and it remains on, what does cooldown time have to do with anything?

I originally assumed cooldown was the time you have to wait before activating again. Then I used ZotR from D/C destiny and cooldown it was still active, just dropping in Zeal but could reactivate almost immediately

[kmoustakas]

One of our group has TR'd into Bard and most likely Bard 18 Rouge 2

Trying to help him build for DPS and when I look at the weapons that get crit bonuses with Swashbuckling it seems to me that putting a few points in Tempest and using Scimitar would outweigh any benefit of using any of the lesser weapons even With the improved crit bonuses.

Am I missing something here?

Yup you're missing everything, really. Best weapon to swashbuckle with single weapon fighting in heroics is the hand axe from litany with x4 crit, combined with swash bonuses and the tier 5 exploit weakness. For epic, ANY swashbuckling weapon with a different crit profile such as balizarde is enough. At end game an upgraded vol dagger but you need to prep that ahead of time.

[Graceunderpressure]

Ah and don't take Dodge. You get 10 "free" dodge from buckler use, few more points from swash cores and t1.. and reaper enhancements, if you guys have those.

But that "free" Dodge doesn't count towards Mobility right?

[Tilomere]

I'm in this build right now and I'm not liking it nearly as much as I thought I would from a DPS point of view. TRing back into swashbuckling this weekend.

The stat crunch affected different weapons differently. Pain is the most powerful dagger now, since it wasn't keen so it avoided the keen nerfs, has % damage on it from vulnerable, and the vorpal and purple slot for feareater are worth more now that mob hp are squished. You just don't use it TWF anymore, since the set bonus was squished. You use it SWF.

If you take your pure 20 rogue SDK, and swap it to Pain SWF AP as above, SD +6 Dex/meld/grim precision/+19-20 twisting SW, Martial, Running, Tactics, DoF it should do better. Sentience up to ~160 standing fort bypass.

Amusingly, staff of shadows at 28 is also most powerful staff, and Chaosbow is the most powerful bow. Basically pick the pre-keen level 28 weapons. Pretty sure ESoS also beats every 2H in the game other than SoS on a staffy or Tail on a barb. :)

[kmoustakas]

The stat crunch affected different weapons differently. Pain is the most powerful dagger now, since it wasn't keen so it avoided the keen nerfs, has % damage on it from vulnerable, and the vorpal and purple slot for feareater are worth more now that mob hp are squished. You just don't use it TWF anymore, since the set bonus was squished. You use it SWF.

If you take your pure 20 rogue SDK, and swap it to Pain SWF AP as above, SD +6 Dex/meld/grim precision/+19-20 twisting SW, Martial, Running, Tactics, DoF it should do better. Sentience up to ~160 standing fort bypass.

Amusingly, staff of shadows at 28 is also most powerful staff, and Chaosbow is the most powerful bow. Basically pick the pre-keen level 28 weapons. Pretty sure ESoS also beats every 2H in the game other than SoS on a staffy or Tail on a barb. :)

I was actually wondering if with the changes riftmaker was the best two handed for frenzy now too, even though it misses out on the +6 damage.

[Fivetigers33]

The stat crunch affected different weapons differently. Pain is the most powerful dagger now, since it wasn't keen so it avoided the keen nerfs, has % damage on it from vulnerable, and the vorpal and purple slot for feareater are worth more now that mob hp are squished. You just don't use it TWF anymore, since the set bonus was squished. You use it SWF.

If you take your pure 20 rogue SDK, and swap it to Pain SWF AP as above, SD +6 Dex/meld/grim precision/+19-20 twisting SW, Martial, Running, Tactics, DoF it should do better. Sentience up to ~160 standing fort bypass.

Amusingly, staff of shadows at 28 is also most powerful staff, and Chaosbow is the most powerful bow. Basically pick the pre-keen level 28 weapons. Pretty sure ESoS also beats every 2H in the game other than SoS on a staffy or Tail on a barb. :)

I actually just found out that my build is plagued by a known bug. So I've been running around with a 16-20 x2 crit profile lol. That was my main problem. I'm missing ~17% of my DPS.

[Graceunderpressure]

So Warchanter core for Martial Proficiency with Hand Axe? Or is there another option for Bard/ Rogue?

[Fivetigers33]

So Warchanter core for Martial Proficiency with Hand Axe? Or is there another option for Bard/ Rogue?

Bard's can take Master's Touch as one of their level 1 spells. It gives them martial weapon proficiency for the duration of the spell. You have to have the Hand Axe equipped when you cast it though.

[Chai]

Hand ax. 2 crit range from swash and 2 crit multi from FB t5.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Hand ax. 2 crit range from swash and 2 crit multi from FB t5.

The crit threat boost from swashbuckling is doubled for weapons that have their threat boosted by it when you have the appropriate improved criticals feat, in addition to the threat increase from improved crit itself, that's why that combo is especially good.. you end up with a 15-20/x5 on a basic handaxe before special attacks (eg. shadarkai greater chain with it's extra +2 threat & multiplier in a nice AoE with 3 attacks at once, hit adrenaline first for added spice) & any other factors - and it's a combo that'll allow you to get double vorpal range at top levels too :D

[Graceunderpressure]

So buddy is using Tiefling L4 blade right now, crit 15-20 because Keen.

I look at stats while equipt and shows 14-20 x 3 as if it were benefiting from SB +1 range?

Thought nothing stacked with Keen?

[FuzzyDuck81]

So buddy is using Tiefling L4 blade right now, crit 15-20 because Keen.

I look at stats while equipt and shows 14-20 x 3 as if it were benefiting from SB +1 range?

Thought nothing stacked with Keen?

Keen mimics the improved criticals feat to boost your threat range to double what the standard threat on that weapon type would be. Swashbuckler boost grants extra +1 threat to that weapon type which stacks & would actually be doubled with IC:P, but since you don't have the actual feat, you only get the +1 boost.

[Graceunderpressure]

Keen mimics the improved criticals feat to boost your threat range to double what the standard threat on that weapon type would be. Swashbuckler boost grants extra +1 threat to that weapon type which stacks & would actually be doubled with IC:P, but since you don't have the actual feat, you only get the +1 boost.

So whatever bonus SB adds to any weapon type Stacks, very cool!

You're also saying when he gets IC for that weapon type it will also stack? Again, this is contrary to what others have said. I was sure the consensus was that IC does Not stack with Keen?

Or maybe I needed to Read a little Deeper into what you said!

IF he had IC Instead of Keen......

[Graceunderpressure]

So looking ahead now, to future weapon selection;

Seems to fall between Hand axe and Kama (Forester's Brush Hook)

I do have the L15 version of that Kama so could give to him, but it would mean an extra Feat.

In the short term, I'm looking at his Tiefling Blade and seeing that many use it to L10 and even further.

Wouldn't it make sense to just craft a Hand Axe at say L8, rather than wait for the next best thing to come along in game?

I've never really crafted weapons, other than OOze and Rust beaters because usually better weapons to be had in game, but this seems different.

Thinking by L8 the benefit of the x3 on the Hand axe plus higher dmg from enhancements and dmg Aug's Has to be significantly better than L4 Tiefling Blade?

[FuzzyDuck81]

So whatever bonus SB adds to any weapon type Stacks, very cool!

You're also saying when he gets IC for that weapon type it will also stack? Again, this is contrary to what others have said. I was sure the consensus was that IC does Not stack with Keen?

Or maybe I needed to Read a little Deeper into what you said!

IF he had IC Instead of Keen......

IC won't stack with keen since they're basically the same thing & I suspect behind the scenes the swashbuckler enhancement checks for the presence of the actual IC feat to get the double swashy bonus. Keen does have that shiny new "bypass all fortification on vorpal" which is it's own benefit though, even if there's no longer a +W on higher tier ones.

Regarding what weapons to use, the barovian & forgotten handaxes are good for ML10; if you'd already done the ToEE farming i'd recommend the elemental crafted ones from there since the AoE damage is really useful, but it can be a grind to get them. Cannith crafted can be a solid bet, especially if you can get a base item with a special material & augment slot.

[cru121]

Wouldn't it make sense to just craft a Hand Axe at say L8, rather than wait for the next best thing to come along in game?

I've never really crafted weapons, other than OOze and Rust beaters because usually better weapons to be had in game, but this seems different.

Thinking by L8 the benefit of the x3 on the Hand axe plus higher dmg from enhancements and dmg Aug's Has to be significantly better than L4 Tiefling Blade?

Tiefling Assassin Blade is pretty good... Before improved crit, it should be at 14-20x3. Whereas a plain handaxe would be at 18-20x3 (before keen or improved crit).
My recommendation would be not to switch to a different weapon until he get Improved Critical (or the weapon is Keen). But if he crafts a Keen weapon, he cannot have a DPS enchantment so...

Also, I wouldn't really worry about handaxes. Yes, they are better for multiclass bards who can get an extra multiplier with handaxes, for example, from Fighter or Barbarian enhancements, but for an 18/2 elf bard/rogue, there's nothing spectacular about handaxes.

As you said, Forester Brush Hook requires an extra feat, and feats are tight. He could grab Exotic Proficiency at 18 I guess. Or dip some fighter.

Another excellent weapon for swashbuckling is the good old Skullsmasher (15-20/x4 with improved crit and swashbuckling)

Here's a list of old named weapons good for swashbuckling: https://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Exceptional_Swashbuckler_weapons&oldid=414105
Some information can be obsolete (it's an older version of the page; the current version is unfortunately useless).

[ThomasHunter]

I am currently Swashbuckling using Flow from the Strahd raid. I hadn’t considered the hand axe from Dryad. Is that really better than Flow?

My Swashbuckler is 15 bard, 3 fighter and 2 rogue. I love it!

[Graceunderpressure]

Tiefling Assassin Blade is pretty good... Before improved crit, it should be at 14-20x3. Whereas a plain handaxe would be at 18-20x3 (before keen or improved crit).
My recommendation would be not to switch to a different weapon until he get Improved Critical (or the weapon is Keen). But if he crafts a Keen weapon, he cannot have a DPS enchantment so...

He is currently L4 about to go L5 maybe even L6 tomorrow night.

Yes, his Tiefling sword is 14-20x3 Swashbuckled! (15-20x2 normal)

You compared Hand axe at 18-20x3 but would actually be 18-20x4 Without IC and 15-20 (or 14-20?) x4 With IC, No? Or am I confusing Hand axe with Kama, as I thought Hand axe got +2 range/ +1 mult?

I do get that the Hand axe doesn't make sense till he has IC, or I put Keen on it.

[Graceunderpressure]

I am currently Swashbuckling using Flow from the Strahd raid. I hadn’t considered the hand axe from Dryad. Is that really better than Flow?

My Swashbuckler is 15 bard, 3 fighter and 2 rogue. I love it!

I have no answer for you, but am seriously considering getting him to take 3 levels of fighter.

[cru121]

You compared Hand axe at 18-20x3 but would actually be 18-20x4 Without IC and 15-20 (or 14-20?) x4 With IC, No?


No.
Normal Handaxe is 20x3
Keen is +1 threat: 19-20x3
Swashbuckling is +2 threat: 18-20x3.
Swash (+2) + Keen (+1) is +3 threat: 17-20x3
Improved crit doubles the effect of swashbuckling (+4) + improved crit (+1) is +5 threat: 15-20x3

Swashbuckling does not modify the multiplier for handaxes (and light picks). Therefore, if you pick up extra multiplier from other class, handaxes start being fun. Third core of Kensai adds +1 multiplier (requires Fighter 6). Tier 5 of Frenzied Berserker adds +2 multiplier (requires Barb 5 and it's a tier 5..). There are also other classes/trees give +1 multiplier, for example, Eldritch Knight.

There's a single named hand axe that has x4 multiplier (Axe of the Unseen Blow).

[Graceunderpressure]

No.
Normal Handaxe is 20x3
Keen is +1 threat: 19-20x3
Swashbuckling is +2 threat: 18-20x3.
Swash (+2) + Keen (+1) is +3 threat: 17-20x3
Improved crit doubles the effect of swashbuckling (+4) + improved crit (+1) is +5 threat: 15-20x3

Swashbuckling does not modify the multiplier for handaxes (and light picks). Therefore, if you pick up extra multiplier from other class, handaxes start being fun. Third core of Kensai adds +1 multiplier (requires Fighter 6). Tier 5 of Frenzied Berserker adds +2 multiplier (requires Barb 5 and it's a tier 5..). There are also other classes/trees give +1 multiplier, for example, Eldritch Knight.

There's a single named hand axe that has x4 multiplier (Axe of the Unseen Blow).

Thank you, and If I'm following this, the Hand axe would be 17-20x3 (Keen added) vs the Tiefling blade at 14-20x3 Both with SB.

So, clear to me now that the Hand axe is a ways down the road and no benefit at lower levels.