Horizon Walker Marked Target Suggestion

[BlueLiger]

Having played around with Horizon Walker on my Ranger, the Marked Target ability felt clunky.

In the time it took to Mark a Target then fire 1 shot you could've of shot 2 shots and against creatures in Epic Elite+ I'd rather the extra shot and anything less than Epic Elite 1-2 shots kills most mob creatures.

Whilst I don't mind the ability overall and the intention behind it, I feel it would be more suited to to be able to 'TAB' to the the next target and it sets the mark on them without having to click and extra button to activate the mark. This would allow for smoother gameplay for archers as I currently feel Marked Target is best left for boss creatures and end fight monsters and even then I'm already clicking Mark of the Hunted, Hunts End then a bow shot on them.

Keen to hear what are others thoughts on the Mark Target and overall of Horizon Walker Tree?

[droid327]

Yeah, when I was playing around with it, it only made sense if you Mark a target and then open with Opening Shot for the double force, and then follow up with Corner. HW is all about the clicky attacks, without nearly the auto-attack filler that other ranged builds have. You're pretty much on a rotation of Mark, Opening, Corner, with Manyshot and whatever your class trees give you.

That means you're effectively on a 4-6 second cycle between targets, since you need to restart the cycle fresh each time...which is going to feel a lot slower than other ranged builds, since like you say that's well more than you need to kill a single trash mob. Flipside, you can really burst down champs and Reapers and bosses fast and consistently. That's kinda what HW does, they're a priority-target specialist.

I very much doubt they're ever going to just make whatever you have tab-targeted count as Marked. For one, it forces you into hard targeting, and no other build has any specificity about how you target mobs. For two, they clearly intend HW to be an active-button playstyle.

[Oxarhamar]

Yeah, when I was playing around with it, it only made sense if you Mark a target and then open with Opening Shot for the double force, and then follow up with Corner. HW is all about the clicky attacks, without nearly the auto-attack filler that other ranged builds have. You're pretty much on a rotation of Mark, Opening, Corner, with Manyshot and whatever your class trees give you.

That means you're effectively on a 4-6 second cycle between targets, since you need to restart the cycle fresh each time...which is going to feel a lot slower than other ranged builds, since like you say that's well more than you need to kill a single trash mob. Flipside, you can really burst down champs and Reapers and bosses fast and consistently. That's kinda what HW does, they're a priority-target specialist.

I very much doubt they're ever going to just make whatever you have tab-targeted count as Marked. For one, it forces you into hard targeting, and no other build has any specificity about how you target mobs. For two, they clearly intend HW to be an active-button playstyle.

Active attack & clicky play has been the shift for some time I wish they would consider passive options instead of burst

[Chai]

I like it. More APM + actual decision making = higher skill ceiling. It also allows for selectively raising DPS against a single mob with larger HP pool, without raising the damage dealt for everything like a passive ability would, which is part of what gets them into these balance messes. This game does have some selections where you can play it by holding the attack button down and circle strafing, but every single new thing shouldn't have to follow that low skill floor model.

[Oxarhamar]

I like it. More APM + actual decision making = higher skill ceiling. It also allows for selectively raising DPS against a single mob with larger HP pool, without raising the damage dealt for everything like a passive ability would, which is part of what gets them into these balance messes. This game does have some selections where you can play it by holding the attack button down and circle strafing, but every single new thing shouldn't have to follow that low skill floor model.

The opposite is true and has been for a long time the game doesn’t reward strafing & holding attack it has long been a game of cool downs and burst mashing the skill ceiling is the same for these 2 play types only one plays more like a caster rotating spells

What gotten in the balance mess is the high spikes of damage that has to be balanced against the base damage

It’s the same thing with builder spender it’s just busywork to make the player feel like they are doing something that rewards them with big spikes for it all damage has to be balanced against the big spikes

[Chai]

The opposite is true and has been for a long time the game doesn’t reward strafing & holding attack it has long been a game of cool downs and burst mashing the skill ceiling is the same for these 2 play types only one plays more like a caster rotating spells

The game has always "rewarded strafing" due to AI never "figuring it out" and cutting the corner to attack the PC. This has been the case since 2006 and is the case in 2021. This isn't the main point however.

The skill ceiling is much higher when players have to make correct decisions for when to burst, as well as understand the optimal order of operations for DPS rotations. Passive 100% "always on" DPS removes decision making as well as does not enforce any type of order of operations - this is a much lower skill ceiling playstyle.


What gotten in the balance mess is the high spikes of damage that has to be balanced against the base damage

-nah. What got them into this balance mess is listening to feedback from folks who refuse 2APM increase to add class themed buffs and demand passive-always-on DPS where max DPS of the character is attained 100% of the time. Even when there were bursts they were "push one button and go ham for 20 seconds" type bursts where adding .5 APM (1 button push per every 2 minutes) to be uber was causing the issue.

Players who went **slightly** out of their way to learn play-optimization **appeared** to "unbalance" the game because they can achieve more than folks who refuse to learn order of operations and rotations, and instead of acknowledging they might have more to learn about a specific archetype, couch their feedback in terms of "lack of balance" and demand playstyle homogenization.


It’s the same thing with builder spender it’s just busywork to make the player feel like they are doing something that rewards them with big spikes for it all damage has to be balanced against the big spikes

Its not even remotely close to the same thing.

Players who feel bad about other players making better decisions being able to hold their own in higher settings demand everything to be toned down to sleep walking as a playstyle, which leads to class homogenization as flat line "always on max DPS" is then tuned to same / similar values. You end up playing Gauntlet with slightly better graphics, where the elf shoots twice as fast as the wizard casts, but does half as much damage per hit. Both spam the same one button and strafe. The only choice the player makes is the "skin" of the character. Does it look like a stereotypical wizard with a white beard or a stereotypical ranger with a green hooded cloak.

The good news here is DDO has options for players who want what you want. There are classes / builds which play like you are asking. They just aren't rewarded like understanding order of operations + more APM playstyles are, refuting your first claim here, which is why you are against more of this entering the game.

DDO is still behind other games in understanding how more APM + more decision making and understanding rotations contributes to balance, but it is catching up. Please add more of this. It isn't just the build optimizing (statting/feating/gearing) which is fun, but the learning of the optimal play as well. This differentiates the classes/AP lines. I don't want my HW to play like my AA or my INQ, which is what passive "always on" DPS does in game systems. When 85% of warlock play looks exactly like ranger play, there aren't enough differences in optimizing the playstyle (not to be confused with build optimization).

[Oxarhamar]

The game has always "rewarded strafing" due to AI never "figuring it out" and cutting the corner to attack the PC. This has been the case since 2006 and is the case in 2021. This isn't the main point however.

The skill ceiling is much higher when players have to make correct decisions for when to burst, as well as understand the optimal order of operations for DPS rotations. Passive 100% "always on" DPS removes decision making as well as does not enforce any type of order of operations - this is a much lower skill ceiling playstyle.



-nah. What got them into this balance mess is listening to feedback from folks who refuse 2APM increase to add class themed buffs and demand passive-always-on DPS where max DPS of the character is attained 100% of the time. Even when there were bursts they were "push one button and go ham for 20 seconds" type bursts where adding .5 APM (1 button push per every 2 minutes) to be uber was causing the issue.

Players who went **slightly** out of their way to learn play-optimization **appeared** to "unbalance" the game because they can achieve more than folks who refuse to learn order of operations and rotations, and instead of acknowledging they might have more to learn about a specific archetype, couch their feedback in terms of "lack of balance" and demand playstyle homogenization.



Its not even remotely close to the same thing.

Players who feel bad about other players making better decisions being able to hold their own in higher settings demand everything to be toned down to sleep walking as a playstyle, which leads to class homogenization as flat line "always on max DPS" is then tuned to same / similar values. You end up playing Gauntlet with slightly better graphics, where the elf shoots twice as fast as the wizard casts, but does half as much damage per hit. Both spam the same one button and strafe. The only choice the player makes is the "skin" of the character. Does it look like a stereotypical wizard with a white beard or a stereotypical ranger with a green hooded cloak.

The good news here is DDO has options for players who want what you want. There are classes / builds which play like you are asking. They just aren't rewarded like understanding order of operations + more APM playstyles are, refuting your first claim here, which is why you are against more of this entering the game.

DDO is still behind other games in understanding how more APM + more decision making and understanding rotations contributes to balance, but it is catching up. Please add more of this. It isn't just the build optimizing (statting/feating/gearing) which is fun, but the learning of the optimal play as well. This differentiates the classes/AP lines. I don't want my HW to play like my AA or my INQ, which is what passive "always on" DPS does in game systems. When 85% of warlock play looks exactly like ranger play, there aren't enough differences in optimizing the playstyle (not to be confused with build optimization).

It’s always been the spike that’s been OP everything else is balanced against

You did a good job of explaining the problems with the big spike method. It’s very much like builder spender going thru your button rotation to get the spike

The homogenization is the moving to copy other mmo play styles

Options would be better

being possible doesn’t mean that the game rewards when it’s not efficient.

[Chai]

It’s always been the spike that’s been OP everything else is balanced against

You did a good job of explaining the problems with the big spike method. It’s very much like builder spender going thru your button rotation to get the spike

The homogenization is the moving to copy other mmo play styles

Options would be better

being possible doesn’t mean that the game rewards when it’s not efficient.

One spike hit for pushing one button every (insert cooldown time here) is not the issue. There are plenty of reasons this is balanced, including the fact that it won't always hit, won't always crit, isn't god mode for all mobs, etc...so the player must decide when to use it to make it most effective. This introduces a playstyle META rather than just a build META - which adds a layer of intricacy to the game which did not previously exist.

The issue was pushing one button every 2 min (.5 APM lol) and getting 20 seconds of crushinator-room-clearing-machine-gun god tier DPS which can stack with other multiplier abilities (fury + many shot for example). To see an example of the difference, compare many shot now vs how it used to work.

Options are granted in the new system. You can choose which tier to build to in order to get which ability you want to add to your DPS rotation. Melee has played like this for a long time now. Barbarian fighter hybrids who understand their DPS rotations and order of operations grin when they see threads like this. The best of them been playing like this for 3-5 years now. Monks have been played like this for much longer.

Playstyle Homogenization is when a warlock plays 85% like a Inquis. You might need completely different gearsets, but the play is pew pew and strafing. Now you can build both differently and decide to push specific buttons in a specific order to optimize results depending on what mobs need clearing, and that's a higher skill ceiling. Those who advocate for low skill floor playstyles to be the only option get mad when they see someone else built their DCs up/twists up/CCs up etc and have mastered their rotations to optimize clearing dungeons. Couching this in terms of lack of balance is incorrect, as higher skill ceiling play being rewarded more is in fact, balanced. This is typically done to cover up a lack of desire for more intricate play - which is ironic in a crowd who loves a game due to intricate character building.

People get to add 2x FE damage to their marked target. Having this just be auto-magical on tab turns it into low skill floor play. The need to decide when to use it, as well as the fact that this does not allow you to rotate through targets making them all take your FE damage is what balances this out. Its a good ability for sniping champs/reapers etc...things which are more dangerous to the party, because....those potentially do more spike damage to the party. Managing spike damage is part of game balance. Flattening DPS is homogenization.

[Oxarhamar]

One spike hit for pushing one button every (insert cooldown time here) is not the issue. There are plenty of reasons this is balanced, including the fact that it won't always hit, won't always crit, isn't god mode for all mobs, etc...so the player must decide when to use it to make it most effective. This introduces a playstyle META rather than just a build META - which adds a layer of intricacy to the game which did not previously exist.

The issue was pushing one button every 2 min (.5 APM lol) and getting 20 seconds of crushinator-room-clearing-machine-gun god tier DPS which can stack with other multiplier abilities (fury + many shot for example). To see an example of the difference, compare many shot now vs how it used to work.

Options are granted in the new system. You can choose which tier to build to in order to get which ability you want to add to your DPS rotation. Melee has played like this for a long time now. Barbarian fighter hybrids who understand their DPS rotations and order of operations grin when they see threads like this. The best of them been playing like this for 3-5 years now. Monks have been played like this for much longer.

Playstyle Homogenization is when a warlock plays 85% like a Inquis. You might need completely different gearsets, but the play is pew pew and strafing. Now you can build both differently and decide to push specific buttons in a specific order to optimize results depending on what mobs need clearing, and that's a higher skill ceiling. Those who advocate for low skill floor playstyles to be the only option get mad when they see someone else built their DCs up/twists up/CCs up etc and have mastered their rotations to optimize clearing dungeons. Couching this in terms of lack of balance is incorrect, as higher skill ceiling play being rewarded more is in fact, balanced. This is typically done to cover up a lack of desire for more intricate play - which is ironic in a crowd who loves a game due to intricate character building.

People get to add 2x FE damage to their marked target. Having this just be auto-magical on tab turns it into low skill floor play. The need to decide when to use it, as well as the fact that this does not allow you to rotate through targets making them all take your FE damage is what balances this out. Its a good ability for sniping champs/reapers etc...things which are more dangerous to the party, because....those potentially do more spike damage to the party. Managing spike damage is part of game balance. Flattening DPS is homogenization.

Spike damage is certainly the balance issue


Flatting DPS is not homogenization coping the same spike damage play style as melee & caster & other MMOs that is

Monk has been like that long time Many shot was & is still one of the stacking burst effects

I don’t find anything intricate about selecting a target & hitting a combination of attacks I’ve tried other MMOS that’s what they do

Again you are proving that it’s not balanced and you show how it’s balanced with the spike

I don’t think it too much takes skill hit buttons in order it is tedious

[Enderoc]

I splashed HW on my Melee cleric for the fort bypass. All I do is next target, mark, attack and its pretty smooth.

[Chai]

Flattening the capabilities so everyone is just as capable as everyone else with no unique push button activate-able items is homogenization in DDO. When your character does the exact same thing when there are 8 mobs with 10kHP each vs when there is one mob with 300kHP thats also homogenization. When you demand ALL other characters are like this, that is also homogenization.

Look, you guys who want characters to have ONLY passives and just do the same things with zero range of other capabilities to address encounter dynamics already have that option right now in DDO. This can be (and often is) built for. You guys who want this do not lose out when there is ALSO the ability to build more complexity into the play of the character, to address different situations. You can already play what you want. Lowering the skill ceiling for everyone else creates a boring game play for those who enjoy this part of system mastery.

[Oxarhamar]

Flattening the capabilities so everyone is just as capable as everyone else with no unique push button activate-able items is homogenization in DDO. When your character does the exact same thing when there are 8 mobs with 10kHP each vs when there is one mob with 300kHP thats also homogenization. When you demand ALL other characters are like this, that is also homogenization.

Look, you guys who want characters to have ONLY passives and just do the same things with zero range of other capabilities to address encounter dynamics already have that option right now in DDO. This can be (and often is) built for. You guys who want this do not lose out when there is ALSO the ability to build more complexity into the play of the character, to address different situations. You can already play what you want. Lowering the skill ceiling for everyone else creates a boring game play for those who enjoy this part of system mastery.

The options is there and as you have demonstrated it is balanced against the spike damage which has been the move of more & more combat homogenization just like in other mmos

What it feels like to me is like playing a caster or like you said a monk with the combo and finishing moves

[Chai]

The options is there and as you have demonstrated it is balanced against the spike damage which has been the move of more & more combat homogenization just like in other mmos

There are zero situations where "always on 100% max DPS" is balanced against "spike DPS" in DDO. What has happened in some cases in DDO is they removed a "hit one button and be god emperor for 20 seconds" ability and provided multiple abilities in return where pushing one button provides 1-3 spike hits per push, and this is balanced against having charges and cooldowns - not against other "always on" abilities.


What it feels like to me is like playing a caster or like you said a monk with the combo and finishing moves

Good.

Anyone who wants to play the "hold the attack button down and strafe FTW" ranged build has rogue mechanic GXbow. Warlock can also be built like this. I see people leveling these all the time. I dont see them at end game as often because those who optimized their builds who also enjoy optimizing their play are rewarded wit higher DPS than those who optimized their builds but refuse to optimize their play - which makes perfect sense.

[Oxarhamar]

The options is there and as you have demonstrated it is balanced against the spike damage which has been the move of more & more combat homogenization just like in other mmos

What it feels like to me is like playing a caster or like you said a monk with the combo and finishing moves


There are zero situations where "always on 100% max DPS" is balanced against "spike DPS" in DDO. What has happened in some cases in DDO is they removed a "hit one button and be god emperor for 20 seconds" ability and provided multiple abilities in return where pushing one button provides 1-3 spike hits per push, and this is balanced against having charges and cooldowns - not against other "always on" abilities.



Good.

Anyone who wants to play the "hold the attack button down and strafe FTW" ranged build has rogue mechanic GXbow. Warlock can also be built like this. I see people leveling these all the time. I dont see them at end game as often because those who optimized their builds who also enjoy optimizing their play are rewarded wit higher DPS than those who optimized their builds but refuse to optimize their play - which makes perfect sense.

That’s exactly what It’s balanced against you go up on of those trees take none of those abilities see what you are left without

[Chai]

Precisely why its NOT balanced dynamically for different situations. The players with 92 AP worth of push button = spike damage hit abilities dominate raids and high skull reaper currently. The players who refuse to optimize their play and prefer to use that same 92 AP on passive stuff are not optimized for that content. They built for ease of play, which allows them to clear trash mobs well, but boss DPS suffers greatly.

Marked target in HW being the way it is makes it an excellent raid ability. It makes it excellent for taking out champions. It makes it excellent for boss tier reapers - all of whom the "passive ability" builds cannot handle, because they play the same way against 10 mobs each having 10k HP as they do against 1 mob that has 300k HP, and those encounters do not work the same.

This ability should not be changed in the way that makes it work differently for those who refuse to optimize gameplay. Sure, they should fix the hitching that occurs due to desync of cooldowns. Allowing players to simply tab through mobs passively adding all the debuffs and +FE damage Marked Target provides would overperform if allowed to exist as a passive. Requiring the player to activate it and making them choose which mob to use it on is what keeps this balanced - and in line - something that won't require a nerf later on.

[Enoach]

For me I'm still adjusting but where I find the most issue for me is Marking and Opening Shot abilities. Solo it is not as difficult outside of remembering to mark first before you shoot, but for some reason when you add an effect to a mob it seems to attract other players to attack the "shiny" :)

I'm running on a level 30 that has been an AA, so I'm going to chalk this up to first needing to relearn the character. But before I finalize how I feel about HW I want to run from level 1.

My initial thoughts though would be something that combines Marking with Opening Shot as an option to apply Hunters Mark. Marking does seem to have some good benefits if you have invested so it might be good that these are not tied together.

[Oxarhamar]

Precisely why its NOT balanced dynamically for different situations. The players with 92 AP worth of push button = spike damage hit abilities dominate raids and high skull reaper currently. The players who refuse to optimize their play and prefer to use that same 92 AP on passive stuff are not optimized for that content. They built for ease of play, which allows them to clear trash mobs well, but boss DPS suffers greatly.

Marked target in HW being the way it is makes it an excellent raid ability. It makes it excellent for taking out champions. It makes it excellent for boss tier reapers - all of whom the "passive ability" builds cannot handle, because they play the same way against 10 mobs each having 10k HP as they do against 1 mob that has 300k HP, and those encounters do not work the same.

This ability should not be changed in the way that makes it work differently for those who refuse to optimize gameplay. Sure, they should fix the hitching that occurs due to desync of cooldowns. Allowing players to simply tab through mobs passively adding all the debuffs and +FE damage Marked Target provides would overperform if allowed to exist as a passive. Requiring the player to activate it and making them choose which mob to use it on is what keeps this balanced - and in line - something that won't require a nerf later on.

passive ability is where it is because the game is balanced in that way against the spike damage

requiring activation doesn’t make it balanced

[Chai]

passive ability is where it is because the game is balanced in that way against the spike damage

The game is not balanced in that way. No 100% passive damage builds are coming close to anything that requires active play optimization. You have the option to build and play that way by preference, but you choose to be suboptimal when doing so.

If Im wrong youll be able to show me the 100% passive damage build which is top DPS (sits next to kensai/VKF & rogue/VKF hybrids in DPS race style encounters).


requiring activation doesn’t make it balanced

It most certainly does. Its an opportunity cost having to actively choose which mob to use it on exclusively. Must optimize for best payout, which will not be a standard trash mob. Allowing a player to tab through and just get the FE damage and all those debuffs on every mob until it dies and then it re-ups on new target would be OP. There would be zero downtime, zero opportunity cost, and zero balance.

[Oxarhamar]

The game is not balanced in that way. No 100% passive damage builds are coming close to anything that requires active play optimization. You have the option to build and play that way by preference, but you choose to be suboptimal when doing so.

If Im wrong youll be able to show me the 100% passive damage build which is top DPS (sits next to kensai/VKF & rogue/VKF hybrids in DPS race style encounters).



It most certainly does. Its an opportunity cost having to actively choose which mob to use it on exclusively. Must optimize for best payout, which will not be a standard trash mob. Allowing a player to tab through and just get the FE damage and all those debuffs on every mob until it dies and then it re-ups on new target would be OP. There would be zero downtime, zero opportunity cost, and zero balance.

Making a different play style suboptimal isn’t balance

That’s exactly how the game is balanced currently thanks for that

Choosing when to drop the spike isn’t opportunity cost

Having it be passively dropped would be a net loss already so not sure why you have a problem with it

You want to take it to the extreme of the OP effect being on every hit