Petition to Save Twists of Fate

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Twists of Fate

are an iconic unique part of DDO. They are very popular. As such they are important to preserve. They are threatened with being completely obliterated - deleted in the new U51 gate--

This is a petition to have them carried over into the new system.

Unfortunately a gating mentality that has taken hold at SSG and will likely not be swayed by our protestations over the ED redesign as a whole, however, perhaps, we can urge preservation of a part of the existing ED system and keep our twists of fate and their system intact.

The present Twist of Fate system works and is very fun. People love it. It makes hitting level 20 and going into epics exciting and the Bonus slot for having Epic completionist makes being epic completionist fantastic and worth grinding epic past lives for.

Having our system changed, nuke, gated to where our twists vanish and all become points converted into points that are just points - what is proposed for the U51 is lackluster at best, boring at worst - save our Twists of Fate!

Please, fellow gamers, DDO lovers, and D&D nerds, of which I am the biggest, help me - please - let SSG know - the U51 gate is opening and within is the ruin of our beloved Twists -

a Petition to Save Twists of Fate

Do not let U51 DDO-Gate orbital nuke this very iconic and unique part of DDO that we have come to love after all these years - Twists of Fate deserve to be preserved!

[kmoustakas]

Not even feather of the sun managed to get the community so riled up. I'd sign a petition to bring feather back as executive producer. They can't possibly be worse than the existing. I'll take ghostbane over new destiny system every day.

[Shadospawn]

I’m with you that we need to retain some flexibility but I think they can do better than twists and also let us switch out between different destiny profiles. That’s my vote.

[LittleLexi]

Can't really say I love Twists of Fate all that much. And particularly for players new to epics — it is a long slog to get to where they can upgrade their Twists to be more useful. There are also lots of useless abilities in destinies, along with others that are far superior to Twist in; some might even say mandatory. So the choices are limited. That's not interesting, healthy, or fun. I don't think having powerful higher tier Twists at level 20 is a positive thing either — even though I benefited from this myself. It's also immersion breaking for an archetype to use wildly different abilities.

It's tough to say, at this point, whether the new system is actually an improvement.

[cru121]

Yes, twists are gone in the new system.
What probably should be mentioned is that you can now invest your epic destiny points in three destinies simultaneously.
This serves a very similar purpose as twists - get abilities from other trees.

Just because things are different, they don't have to be bad.

[Iriale]

Yes, twists are gone in the new system.
What probably should be mentioned is that you can now invest your epic destiny points in three destinies simultaneously.
This serves a very similar purpose as twists - get abilities from other trees.

Just because things are different, they don't have to be bad.
It is much less flexible than before, and it also comes with the aggravated addition that you have to use those secondary trees to regain the lost power with your main tree. For example, before you got all the melee power with the cores of your only active ED, now to get the melee power you had before you need the cores of the three trees, so if you take a core from a non-martial tree (for example, cocoon), you're already losing. It is impossible for the system as proposed to match the flexibility of the twists. Also, those trees are full of filler enhancements in the lower tiers.

Anyway, they should create profiles even with the old system, which was flexible for EDs but not for heroic enhancements. It's annoying having to change the enhancements of a fvs, for example, to take Beacon of Hope tier 5 for raids and go back to Angel of Vengeance for solo quests.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Since the new system is designed in such a manner that twists of fate can't be saved (due to the design paradigm), I'm not sure how much traction you're going to get here. Another large (perhaps larger) loss in flexibility is now we won't be able to run in US for tanking/survivability (such as in LVoD) versus running in a DPS destiny for other quests. I will miss that.

[Nim123]

Don't bargain with SSG. That just tells them that you are about to give in. U51 needs to be fully trashed.

[Hawkwier]

/signed

(Unless they increase the accessible trees to 6)

They need to bin the gdawful builder mechanic nonsense too.

[AustrianDeathMachine]

It is pretty much a done deal. They can't walk this back. They can't revamp the system to include twists.

It won't look good in a budget report to show you had to spend x amount of dollars to radically redesign your new system before you even launch it.

to those saying it is better that the twist system. I can twist from 5 different trees other than my current active destiny on live now. How does limiting my choices to 3 trees make my diversity greater?

A new player can max out a tree by level 23. Now they can't until 30. How is that better.

Currently I can swap to a different destiny and change my twists to focus my character to better handle the content I am about to run for free. How does adding a plat cost add diversity?

I have 35 million+ plat on my account so it does not bother me. But to the plat starved new players, you all are so worried about. Where does that leave them? They won't have the money to swap their points as readily.

I do not like a system where you have to build charges. With the current lag and dry firing of hot bars, it is going to be a mess.

"You have to hit this button every 8 seconds or in 10 seconds you loose all your charges" I hit the button but the effect did not go off. or my character had to stop to do a climb animation on uneven ground. or whatever.

There is a lot of things that don't work right in this game to make a system like this unfavorable.

But as it is on the preview server it is pretty much a done deal.

So I am doing the only thing I can do to protest in a way that they will listen. I will stop giving them money. I am just glad they previewed this before update 50.

[Strider1963]

Don't bargain with SSG. That just tells them that you are about to give in. U51 needs to be fully trashed.

/signed..... Unfortunately, the devs have already made up their minds. It should be obvious to all people here that for some reason they just like taking the fun out of the game. Apparently if you're having fun, you're op and have to be nerfed. No matter what they do, you can always try to adapt, but if you're really not having fun anymore, whats the point?

[Iriale]

It is pretty much a done deal. They can't walk this back. They can't revamp the system to include twists.

It won't look good in a budget report to show you had to spend x amount of dollars to radically redesign your new system before you even launch it.
They have spent time, which is money, but I doubt that it is so much money that they have lost, especially compared to what they could lose if there is an exodus of paying customers with these changes. There are ample examples of what happens when devs design based on their grandiose ideas rather than what players like. Today several forumites were commenting that SGW went from 250K to 100K players for a change like this. And this is just one example, but it is worth remembering that some changes can be too expensive. In my country we say that a withdrawal on time can be a victory, because there are victories that cost more than they are worth.


It to those saying it is better that the twist system. I can twist from 5 different trees other than my current active destiny on live now. How does limiting my choices to 3 trees make my diversity greater?
Even if you had access to six trees the system would still be less flexible than twists, because of the number of points you need to get up the trees and all those enhancement fillers at the lower tiers.


A new player can max out a tree by level 23. Now they can't until 30. How is that better.
Most people are going to hate this, many of us find it more fun to have skills to play with throughout epics than to wait for 30 to get them. Those who are saturated with grind also appreciate having the EDs set to 20. Those in low dps classes are going to hate leveling epics without the help of the tools of the old EDs, because for sure the enemies will still be bags of hps and the Epic ward will still be in full effect. But what a few find fun is gaining things at each level, and those are going to support that change.


Currently I can swap to a different destiny and change my twists to focus my character to better handle the content I am about to run for free. How does adding a plat cost add diversity?

I have 35 million+ plat on my account so it does not bother me. But to the plat starved new players, you all are so worried about. Where does that leave them? They won't have the money to swap their points as readily
This is a huge loss, but those who defend the system probably don't care about raiding or filling roles in groups. Even if the change cost zero platinum, relocating all points is time consuming..


I do not like a system where you have to build charges. With the current lag and dry firing of hot bars, it is going to be a mess.

"You have to hit this button every 8 seconds or in 10 seconds you loose all your charges" I hit the button but the effect did not go off. or my character had to stop to do a climb animation on uneven ground. or whatever.
It is somewhat difficult to understand that according to the devs the procs produce lag but the charge system do not, when both systems rely heavily on the calculations. In any case, I guess if the charge/builder go live, they will have to remove that system within a year. And the devs will manage to blame the players for it.

[Enoach]

The issue I'm seeing in this thread is that it is stating we should save the twists, but it is not outlining examples of what is being lost. There is the vague indicator that "we need more trees available".

Maybe outline the different twists used? What trees they come from? What Tier Level (4, 2, 1 / 3, 3, 1, 1)? Is this based on 3 twists, 4 twists or 5 twists?

Since they are revamping each of these EDs into "Enhancement Trees" based on the new structure (I know not all trees are available in preview yet, so this may be unknown) can we achieve similar results? (not necessarily exact, but equivalent)

Personally, I think it is too early to make such a call. I'm seeing possible advantages for some of my characters in the new system being able to leverage both defensive abilities, CC and DPS. Once all the trees are out in preview I may adjust my thinking based on getting the full picture. But at this time I'm more curious as to where they are going.

My reading of the changes seemed to point out that we are not losing the fate points, but instead they are being added to the pool that we will be pulling from in the "Epic Enhancement Tree" Which will mean for those that have them more options early on.

[arminius]

/signed. But I agree with poster above who basically says that even raising this as a bargain is a signal that our next stage is acceptance.

Mine is not. Or rather, my acceptance will be acceptance that DDO no longer exists in my life

[Aelonwy]

Also, those trees are full of filler enhancements in the lower tiers.

Everyone saying three trees is all the flexibility you need are ignoring this point. Just like heroics you are going to be spending some of your precious DP on filler to get what you really want.

And there are plenty of examples of people explaining how they take twists - ALL from different trees if you read the threads.

I TRed her recently but my cleric was in EA with twists from Unyielding (Divine Energy Res for QoL), Primal Avatar (Tsunami), Magister (Unearthly Reactions, QoL but also all I can afford), and Fatesinger (Arcane Hymm), and if I had Epic completionist and could afford unlocking a 5th slot I would probably have twisted from either Draconic (Energy Sheath) or Shiradi (Stay Frosty).

I think at cap she has 25 fate points so I went with a 3, 3, 1, 1 option. I remember I just couldn't finagle it last time in epics for her to afford Spell School Specialist from Magister so I went with Unearthly Reactions to get out of trouble if I got surrounded.

3 Trees just doesn't cover that.

[Chilianna]

Disagree.
Trees are flexible.
And they have WAY less fillers than current trees.
And they are useful fillers compared current.

The only issue i have with the new system is that the
amount of points given might not be enough.

[Tebaco]

Disagree.
Trees are flexible.
And they have WAY less fillers than current trees.
And they are useful fillers compared current.

The only issue i have with the new system is that the
amount of points given might not be enough.

Its wrong. It is not only issue. Another issue is that with twist u can twist from any ED. But with new system u limited to 3 trees only. Hope u see the difference.

[devashta]

Don't bargain with SSG. That just tells them that you are about to give in. U51 needs to be fully trashed.

Not going to happen. You should just check their thought process in discord chat - they are happy with their changes and think its all for the better. Any criticism or questioning will be dumped into "people do not like change" bucket. U51 is coming soon (R).

[Nim123]

Not going to happen. You should just check their thought process in discord chat - they are happy with their changes and think its all for the better. Any criticism or questioning will be dumped into "people do not like change" bucket. U51 is coming soon (R).Perfectly aware that SSG will never walk this back on their own. Growing a spine, not begging, bargaining and pleading and voting with our wallets is the only way to get Enad7s attention. It's a long shot.

"If you're falling of a mountain, you may as well try to fly".

[Enoach]

Everyone saying three trees is all the flexibility you need are ignoring this point. Just like heroics you are going to be spending some of your precious DP on filler to get what you really want.

And there are plenty of examples of people explaining how they take twists - ALL from different trees if you read the threads.

I TRed her recently but my cleric was in EA with twists from Unyielding (Divine Energy Res for QoL), Primal Avatar (Tsunami), Magister (Unearthly Reactions, QoL but also all I can afford), and Fatesinger (Arcane Hymm), and if I had Epic completionist and could afford unlocking a 5th slot I would probably have twisted from either Draconic (Energy Sheath) or Shiradi (Stay Frosty).

I think at cap she has 25 fate points so I went with a 3, 3, 1, 1 option. I remember I just couldn't finagle it last time in epics for her to afford Spell School Specialist from Magister so I went with Unearthly Reactions to get out of trouble if I got surrounded.

3 Trees just doesn't cover that.

^^ This right here is the constructive criticism that is needed (thank you Aelonwy for a good example)

Now above you have a mentioned trees that have not yet been released for preview, but based on the above example you have something to compare. So as the trees come out, can your character reach the same potential with the 3 tree system? Do they need to consider allowing more trees like the heroic system that allows up to 6?

I personally have characters where I seem to have twists from only 1 or 2 different trees, but I also have characters that branch out further

I'm not fully convinced either way, but that is because we don't have all of the trees and feat changes to work with. But if we don't outline specifically how we are using twists we will lose that flexibility.

[awar1234]

Man oh man you never stop ..

Please stop trying to save the old DDO.
We are changing stuff and your old way of doing things will need to change.

Get over it man.

[amessi1]

copying form another thread...but fits nicely here:

Losing the twist system will, in my opinon, lead to less build diversity within the DDO community & I'll feel a loss for what was earned with epic past lives. (I know we're getting more points, but how they're spent is dramatically less diverse which will cause fewer unique builds in DDO and you're forced into only 3 trees)

IDEA: how about a set amount of points to spend in 3 tress that all have upon reaching 30 (few per level), no trees are locked and epic past lives contribute to twists. the twists operate similarly to today in that you must spend more points to unlock higher tiers, though in the new system you wouldn't be required to unlock a feat with points to be able to twist it in. This lowers the entry barrier, while driving epic past lives benefit. You could still allow people to use three trees, but epic past lives are something truly special that lead to twists across all trees.

[Chilianna]

Its wrong. It is not only issue. Another issue is that with twist u can twist from any ED. But with new system u limited to 3 trees only. Hope u see the difference.

Yea i see it, but you don't.
With the current system you are limited to 3 slots, +1 for Epic Comp, +1 for level 30.
With the new system if you filled a tree all the way to T5 you can still fill up a second tree all the way up
To T4 and still have few points left to put into a 3rd tree.
That's way more than what you get with Fate Slots, especially considering
most of the stuff that people like to twist have been put in lower tiers.
Like Meld for ex is now T2.

[Ishkaldur]

copying form another thread...but fits nicely here:

Losing the twist system will, in my opinon, lead to less build diversity within the DDO community & I'll feel a loss for what was earned with epic past lives. (I know we're getting more points, but how they're spent is dramatically less diverse which will cause fewer unique builds in DDO and you're forced into only 3 trees)

IDEA: how about a set amount of points to spend in 3 tress that all have upon reaching 30 (few per level), no trees are locked and epic past lives contribute to twists. the twists operate similarly to today in that you must spend more points to unlock higher tiers, though in the new system you wouldn't be required to unlock a feat with points to be able to twist it in. This lowers the entry barrier, while driving epic past lives benefit. You could still allow people to use three trees, but epic past lives are something truly special that lead to twists across all trees.

:confused:
Build diversity comes from Class not epic destinies... at least now.
In endgame players are all using the same epic destiny with the same twists, or 1 or two differences
depending on the amount of points they have...

Diversity alright :rolleyes:

[boredGamer]

:confused:
Build diversity comes from Class not epic destinies... at least now.
In endgame players are all using the same epic destiny with the same twists, or 1 or two differences
depending on the amount of points they have...

Diversity alright :rolleyes:

At least someone gets it. Everyone twisting meld / tsunami on every build because they're broken / ridiculous is really great for build diversity.

[L2Marshall]

Riiiiiight because: build, build, build, spend is creating more build diversity? After this update every single character is being played the exact same way with a different cosmetic skin over it.

[Belzidar]

As much as I hate to say it, it doesn't matter what the players think. They (SSG,ENAD7 or whatever the current ownership is) have already decided the outcome of epic destinies.
Our opinion doesn't much matter to them. Past history supports this.
It's rather sad really that the customers(us) have little to no say in the way our game, that many of us love, will progress.
I haven't fully read and studied the changes that are being proposed to epic destinies but it the end it really doesn't matter if I have. The changes will happen. I will, like many will, take the changes and probably keep playing.
I have asked multiple times on the official thread about chat related issues and an update on the fix. No answers since September of last year. This is how ownership treats there customers.
This is how a poorly run company treats their customers.
You may ask "if its that bad why do you keep coming back?" The friends I have made here keep me coming back every day.

[Hawkwier]

:confused:
Build diversity comes from Class not epic destinies... at least now.
In endgame players are all using the same epic destiny with the same twists, or 1 or two differences
depending on the amount of points they have...

Diversity alright :rolleyes:

Nonsense!

It simply undermines your case when you use blatant falsehoods to make it.

According to this, is everyone running in Fury at end game like I am then?

I don't think I've been in even one group of six at any point when that is the case. Even in melee there are folks who prefer to run in Shadow or Fate or Dreadnought or Crusader, depending on their build, whilst I plod along in Fury. Heck I've switched to LD and back myself over the years. That doesn't even touch what ranged casters or healers run in. I often switch from Fury to Unyielding if we need a tank in a PUG raid. So ED isn't even a constant on a single toon, never mind everyone, as you would have it.

As for twists, the one pretty constant twist I'm aware of is meld... For many folks, me included, the extreme damage output in high reaper means the best way to survive is not to get hit. For melee in particular that can obviously be tricky, so something like meld becomes almost mandatory to take for a lot of folks for emergencies. For many, going up against a doom reaper in R10 without meld isn't much fun without it! So meld is a very popular choice, driven in significant part by such necessity. Extrapolating that very particular point to argue there is no diversity in current EDs as a whole, is however highly disingenuous, and wholly inaccurate.

Meld aside, I've reconfigured my own twists several times in the past year. So that's 4 out of 5 twists that have changed at least once, some 3-4 times this past year to support build and gear variations. That's on a single toon. According to your argument everyone else is doing exactly the same at the same time, as we're all the same? LOL!

If you're going to make a point, please at least try to do it honestly?

[Kebtid]

I like the new system, I just want all abilities to work and to see new abilities and rest of trees, see no point to invest myself until i can see the clear picture.
Change is good, i like change.

[donblas]

I like the new system, I just want all abilities to work and to see new abilities and rest of trees, see no point to invest myself until i can see the clear picture.
Change is good, i like change.

Likewise. Chaos is a ladder!

No more levelling in useless destinies, no more trying to navigate the fate points/twists system. Just simple tree like we've already been using in heroics.

Streamlined and simple.

[boredGamer]

As for twists, the one pretty constant twist I'm aware of is meld... For many folks, me included, the extreme damage output in high reaper means the best way to survive is not to get hit. For melee in particular that can obviously be tricky, so something like meld becomes almost mandatory to take for a lot of folks for emergencies. For many, going up against a doom reaper in R10 without meld isn't much fun without it! So meld is a very popular choice, driven in significant part by such necessity. Extrapolating that very particular point to argue there is no diversity in current EDs as a whole, is however highly disingenuous, and wholly inaccurate.

Meld aside, I've reconfigured my own twists several times in the past year. So that's 4 out of 5 twists that have changed at least once, some 3-4 times this past year to support build and gear variations. That's on a single toon. According to your argument everyone else is doing exactly the same at the same time, as we're all the same? LOL!

If you're going to make a point, please at least try to do it honestly?

I like how you don't think it's a problem everyone takes meld. Or that everyone can tank r10 doom reapers regardless of build.

So enlighten us on these amazing twist changes you have used to show us this amazing build diversity.

[Iriale]

I like how you don't think it's a problem everyone takes meld. Or that everyone can tank r10 doom reapers regardless of build.

So enlighten us on these amazing twist changes you have used to show us this amazing build diversity.
Meld does not allow r10 dooms to be tanked to any toon. Currently it lasts too short (and with long cooldown) for that, for non-tank characters it is just an escape ability that gives you a bit of time to get away or let the tank take the aggro. Only tanks have the stamina to resist the doom for as long as it takes to kill it.

I don't think you understand how meld is currently used by non-tanks (as an escape ability, which has a long cooldown). All games have some emergency ability similar to this when they have high damage spikes.

Almost everyone takes meld (not everyone, don't think so) because it is the only skill of this style that exists in DDO. In pnp there are spells, feats or prestige abilities that provide the same result, if DDO had more variety of sources of certain abilities instead of making them unique (for example, that casters received spells, melees enhancements or feats, etc) , people would not have to go all to the same abilities.

[lronEnema]

Every time there is a change made/proposed to the game the 'I-don't-want-this-help-stop-it' brigade comes out. Often the same people.

Let the changes happen people - it's just a game and we're all along for the ride. If you are still playing then past changes must have been successful. Have some faith that future ones will be too.

[Iriale]

I am not opposed to change itself. I am opposed to bad changes.

[Hawkwier]

I like how you don't think it's a problem everyone takes meld. Or that everyone can tank r10 doom reapers regardless of build.

So enlighten us on these amazing twist changes you have used to show us this amazing build diversity.

LOL! Coming from someone that apparently thinks a disingenuous post is "getting it" I feel zero compulsion to justify anything to you. But I am happy to illustrate my earlier point around the flexibility twists have afforded me.

Nor, to clarify your latest attempt to twist facts, does saying I'd struggle with an R10 doom without meld means everyone can tank it. On the contrary, I perhaps have more chance than some (high con barb in Fury) and am not always successful (as no doubt team-mates will readily attest! :)), but meld at least gives me a decent shot. Stating this means I think everyone can or should tank an R10 doom, is, like your fellow poster, being wholly inaccurate. What is true is quite a lot less of us will do so successfully without it. That's not our fault. Or maybe you think it is?

Nothing amazing about my twists either, beyond perhaps being fortunate enough to have access to full 40 twist points, but quite a lot of folks do too - off the top of my head I've variously had Martial Hymn, CAF, Grim Precision, Meld, Haste Boost, Lay Waste, Momentum Swing, Lithe, Hail of Blows, Running with the Wind, Consecration, Sacred Ground, Stand and be Judged, Cocoon, Brace, Constitution, Leg Tactics, Extra Action Boost, Dance of Flowers. And I usually twist Primal Scream when switching to Unyielding if I'm tanking a PUG raid. I'm sure there are a few I've missed but can't be bothered trawling the ED trees to find.

Currently (for past 2-3 weeks) running with Martial Hymn, Meld, Lithe, Running with the Wind, and Dance of Flowers.

Not sure what any of that proves, beyond confirming I've used a fair few, nor how it would be considered amazing, but you feel free to knock yourself out on that score if it helps. Might help you calm down. :)

[Hawkwier]

Every time there is a change made/proposed to the game the 'I-don't-want-this-help-stop-it' brigade comes out. Often the same people.

Let the changes happen people - it's just a game and we're all along for the ride. If you are still playing then past changes must have been successful. Have some faith that future ones will be too.

By that measure, the constant stream of supposedly successful past changes must surely have resulted in zero population loss and by extension a steady population increase then... Oh, hang on!

I'll resist the urge to apply a pejorative group label to those using erroneous information to make their argument. As Brian said, we are all individuals... :)

[Chai]

Disagree.
Trees are flexible.
And they have WAY less fillers than current trees.
And they are useful fillers compared current.

The only issue i have with the new system is that the
amount of points given might not be enough.

New system is less flexible. Before I could be a tank in US and a DPS in LD/FotW. New system no one is going to respec all those points to fill another role, then spec all the way back for questing again.

We are losing flexibility, not gaining as often claimed.

[Chai]

Every time there is a change made/proposed to the game the 'I-don't-want-this-help-stop-it' brigade comes out. Often the same people.

You notice its the same people because there are fewer and fewer people repeating it more loudly, debunking the often posted (usually the same people) claim that the game is still here therefore all must be fine.


Let the changes happen people - it's just a game and we're all along for the ride. If you are still playing then past changes must have been successful. Have some faith that future ones will be too.

If that were true the recent concurrency would be parallel to or higher now than it was in 2012.

Lights are still on and you're still here =/= old revamps were successful.

[Enderoc]

Disagree.
Trees are flexible.
And they have WAY less fillers than current trees.
And they are useful fillers compared current.

The only issue i have with the new system is that the
amount of points given might not be enough.

Thats also my only grudge.
Three trees with ten levels to earn points is not enough...
So I am assuming the level cap is going to be raised sooner rather than later.

[boredGamer]

Meld does not allow r10 dooms to be tanked to any toon. Currently it lasts too short (and with long cooldown) for that, for non-tank characters it is just an escape ability that gives you a bit of time to get away or let the tank take the aggro. Only tanks have the stamina to resist the doom for as long as it takes to kill it.

I don't think you understand how meld is currently used by non-tanks (as an escape ability, which has a long cooldown). All games have some emergency ability similar to this when they have high damage spikes.

So, player 1, intim, meld.
Player 2, intim, meld.
Player 3, intim, meld.
Player 4, intim, meld.

How long can we tank an r10 doom reaper? Also, many groups I'm in take down r10 doom reapers on a single intim/meld. How long does it take your groups by experience?

Ok - I know most groups don't have the coordination to do it, but it is crazy that it is even possible. Aren't R10 doom reapers supposed to kill a party that isn't working together?

[superevbully]

New system is less flexible. Before I could be a tank in US and a DPS in LD/FotW. New system no one is going to respec all those points to fill another role, then spec all the way back for questing again.

We are losing flexibility, not gaining as often claimed.

Jeez thanks finally short sweet and to the bloody point ....bangt on

[boredGamer]

Martial Hymn, CAF, Grim Precision, Meld, Haste Boost, Lay Waste, Momentum Swing, Lithe, Hail of Blows, Running with the Wind, Consecration, Sacred Ground, Stand and be Judged, Cocoon, Brace, Constitution, Leg Tactics, Extra Action Boost, Dance of Flowers. And I usually twist Primal Scream

Might help you calm down. :)

Nothing I've said hasn't been calm. Generic ad hominem trolling isn't against the rules around here?

Let's roll -

generic numbers buffs:
martial hymn - +1 to Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom, +2 Sneak Dice, +20 Maximum Hit Points, +10 Physical and Magical Resistance rating, +5 Armor Class, and +10 Melee and Ranged Power
Bypass [5/10/15]% enemy fortification and [1/2/3]% enemy dodge.
lithe - Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus
Hail of Blows: You gain +3% chance to doublestrike on your melee attacks and +3 damage with weapons
Running with Wind: You gain Electricity resistance [4/8/12], and a +[10/20/30]% Enhancement bonus to Movement speed. You also gain +[2/4/6]% chance to Doublestrike on your Melee attacks
Brace for Impact: Passive Bonus: +[20/40]% fortification. +[1/2] Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws
consitution?
A Dance of Flowers: You gain +[0.25/0.5/1][W] to weapon attacks. Note: works on shields.
Primal Scream

haste boost - can get this anywhere if you want

meld - basically exploitable and universal
caf - assuming when it was exploitable?

healing, *maybe* I'd buy "build diversity", but everyone uses the same ones:
cons/sacred
cocoon

"build diversity":
action boosts
Stand and be Judged - a stun, should I file this under bug or no? otherwise it's a stun?
lay waste/momentum swing - cleaves made better - I guess this is diversity
tactics

So of all these twists, 4ish + 2 (surprised you didn't throw in tsunami, that are dubious / exploits), actually define your build, 1 of which basically everyone takes, or should at end game. And this is "build diversity" ? And really lay waste / momentum swing is the only thing that is "build defining".

I'm still not buying this incredibly diverse ecosystem outside of people wanting to twist the same few core abilities. Nor that if such abilities existed in a new system that you couldn't take them in your 2nd or 3rd tree. Just because you've *used* those twists doesn't really make them game defining, nor that the tree 2/3 thing won't cover some / all of those things.


Aside from all of this, I do agree tree switching should be easier, and the build/spender thing, at least from this vantage point, looks annoying at best.

[MistaMagic]

So, player 1, intim, meld.
Player 2, intim, meld.
Player 3, intim, meld.
Player 4, intim, meld.

How long can we tank an r10 doom reaper? Also, many groups I'm in take down r10 doom reapers on a single intim/meld. How long does it take your groups by experience?

Ok - I know most groups don't have the coordination to do it, but it is crazy that it is even possible. Aren't R10 doom reapers supposed to kill a party that isn't working together?

Why tank a Doom Reaper?, its just 1 of the 2 that DO NOT have true seeing, invis, sneak or whatever past it and leave it to grow mouldy :)

[Hawkwier]

Nothing I've said hasn't been calm. Generic ad hominem trolling isn't against the rules around here?

Let's roll -

generic numbers buffs:
martial hymn - +1 to Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom, +2 Sneak Dice, +20 Maximum Hit Points, +10 Physical and Magical Resistance rating, +5 Armor Class, and +10 Melee and Ranged Power
Bypass [5/10/15]% enemy fortification and [1/2/3]% enemy dodge.
lithe - Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus
Hail of Blows: You gain +3% chance to doublestrike on your melee attacks and +3 damage with weapons
Running with Wind: You gain Electricity resistance [4/8/12], and a +[10/20/30]% Enhancement bonus to Movement speed. You also gain +[2/4/6]% chance to Doublestrike on your Melee attacks
Brace for Impact: Passive Bonus: +[20/40]% fortification. +[1/2] Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws
consitution?
A Dance of Flowers: You gain +[0.25/0.5/1][W] to weapon attacks. Note: works on shields.
Primal Scream

haste boost - can get this anywhere if you want

meld - basically exploitable and universal
caf - assuming when it was exploitable?

healing, *maybe* I'd buy "build diversity", but everyone uses the same ones:
cons/sacred
cocoon

"build diversity":
action boosts
Stand and be Judged - a stun, should I file this under bug or no? otherwise it's a stun?
lay waste/momentum swing - cleaves made better - I guess this is diversity
tactics

So of all these twists, 4ish + 2 (surprised you didn't throw in tsunami, that are dubious / exploits), actually define your build, 1 of which basically everyone takes, or should at end game. And this is "build diversity" ? And really lay waste / momentum swing is the only thing that is "build defining".

I'm still not buying this incredibly diverse ecosystem outside of people wanting to twist the same few core abilities. Nor that if such abilities existed in a new system that you couldn't take them in your 2nd or 3rd tree. Just because you've *used* those twists doesn't really make them game defining, nor that the tree 2/3 thing won't cover some / all of those things.


Aside from all of this, I do agree tree switching should be easier, and the build/spender thing, at least from this vantage point, looks annoying at best.

I honestly don't care what you buy or otherwise. You seem quite comfortable with casual misrepresentation of fact to suit your purpose, so how you choose to interpret matters is pretty much irrelevant at this point as far as I'm concerned. As I said already, I owe you zero justification.

Breaking down those twists by ability as some sort of critique is an excercise in what, exactly, as you have, to be fair understandably, no knowledge in terms of context and how they applied or worked with other elements? I've used all of those twists, and likely a few others, over the past year. There are a fair few of them from a pretty wide range of EDs. The plain fact of the matter is that's a level of build diversity that won't be available after U51 as matters stand. End of story.

That fact may not suit your unfounded argument that such diversity doesn't exist, supposedly supported by the "fact" everyone was/is doing exactly the same thing (meld and tsunami), or your evident support of others making similarly unfounded claims that we're all running round in the same destiny, that's just too bad though. Most reasonable folks can draw their own conclusions on how ridiculous or otherwise they deem that sort of stuff to be.

[AbyssalMage]

Twists of Fate

are an iconic unique part of DDO. They are very popular. As such they are important to preserve. They are threatened with being completely obliterated - deleted in the new U51 gate--

This is a petition to have them carried over into the new system.

Unfortunately a gating mentality that has taken hold at SSG and will likely not be swayed by our protestations over the ED redesign as a whole, however, perhaps, we can urge preservation of a part of the existing ED system and keep our twists of fate and their system intact.

The present Twist of Fate system works and is very fun. People love it. It makes hitting level 20 and going into epics exciting and the Bonus slot for having Epic completionist makes being epic completionist fantastic and worth grinding epic past lives for.

Having our system changed, nuke, gated to where our twists vanish and all become points converted into points that are just points - what is proposed for the U51 is lackluster at best, boring at worst - save our Twists of Fate!

Please, fellow gamers, DDO lovers, and D&D nerds, of which I am the biggest, help me - please - let SSG know - the U51 gate is opening and within is the ruin of our beloved Twists -

a Petition to Save Twists of Fate

Do not let U51 DDO-Gate orbital nuke this very iconic and unique part of DDO that we have come to love after all these years - Twists of Fate deserve to be preserved!
Twists are gone. The faster you come to accept that the developers have made their decision the better it will be for you. The preview server is strictly that. A preview. It is rarely used to find bugs. Players do use it to find exploits but we aren't supposed to talk about it like, "Fight Club." ED's are being nerfed so the developers can soothe their egos. The sheer amount of nerfs they are releasing is game shattering. They are basically making DDO2 without telling us. So look at the last few updates and probably the next two years as a slow conversion to DDO 2.0. Personally I signed up for DDO and I feel like I am playing WoW Lite :( Maybe it's LotR Lite? Really didn't like that game either.

[DRoark]

The new system looks pretty bad. Less flexibility, and swopping over to an "enforced" ER-system, so you can get SOME of your flexibility back?

This is basically a game root-canal, with no novocaine. They could have gone in a dozen directions to improve the game. DOWN wasn't a choice.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Everyone saying three trees is all the flexibility you need are ignoring this point. Just like heroics you are going to be spending some of your precious DP on filler to get what you really want.

And there are plenty of examples of people explaining how they take twists - ALL from different trees if you read the threads.

I TRed her recently but my cleric was in EA with twists from Unyielding (Divine Energy Res for QoL), Primal Avatar (Tsunami), Magister (Unearthly Reactions, QoL but also all I can afford), and Fatesinger (Arcane Hymm), and if I had Epic completionist and could afford unlocking a 5th slot I would probably have twisted from either Draconic (Energy Sheath) or Shiradi (Stay Frosty).

I think at cap she has 25 fate points so I went with a 3, 3, 1, 1 option. I remember I just couldn't finagle it last time in epics for her to afford Spell School Specialist from Magister so I went with Unearthly Reactions to get out of trouble if I got surrounded.

3 Trees just doesn't cover that.

Yes well said Aelonwy, I completely agree which is why I started this petition - the system we have now is fun and extremely flexible and very useful - I can twist things from anywhere and as an Epic Completionist I can have 5 - from any trees - and can change them before each quest, along with my destiny, based on what I am doing -

the new system is much much much much much worse, gated, not fun looking at all - just looks grindy, nerfed, and sadly, twist-less.

We need Twists preserved for fun, for their iconic DDO place in ddo history, and to preserve some semblance of being able to create completely broken strange epic builds that make no sense but completely work. I do not want builder/spender; i do not want to be locked into 3 'trees' when now I have all to choose from @ lvl 20.

this NGE reminds me of what EA did to SWToR when they ruined it. I went from GMing a 1000 person guild with a full raid schedule and conquest competion to cancelling 2 subs and quitting over the course of 60 days after EA pulled an NGE that obliterated the gear, raised the level, and mashed the skills into one new game experience - it was awful






SAVE TWISTS OF FATE!!!!!!!!!!

NO NGE
SAVE DDO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

To keep this thread on point

the way to save our Twists is to keep them exactly as they are

just let us twist tier 1-4, same as it is now from any of the trees as it is now,
even if the tree is not active, or has any buys in it. Just as it is.

this allows them to keep their present u51 and import the twist system as it exists.

This would allow for build diversity and for flavor beyond the 3 locked trees.

New players would need to unlock the points to twist and earn more points, exactly
as it is now - and there is no worry about twists from inactive trees because the new
system works different than the old system - this would preserve the old twists
and the new system.

There is no buy required to twist from an active or inactive tree beyond having the fate points
for the twist

easy pezy

PS - removing specific ED buys because people are using them in R10 is not a reason to remove them.

[Anuulified]

Twists of Fate

are an iconic unique part of DDO. They are very popular. As such they are important to preserve. They are threatened with being completely obliterated - deleted in the new U51 gate--

This is a petition to have them carried over into the new system.

Unfortunately a gating mentality that has taken hold at SSG and will likely not be swayed by our protestations over the ED redesign as a whole, however, perhaps, we can urge preservation of a part of the existing ED system and keep our twists of fate and their system intact.

The present Twist of Fate system works and is very fun. People love it. It makes hitting level 20 and going into epics exciting and the Bonus slot for having Epic completionist makes being epic completionist fantastic and worth grinding epic past lives for.

Having our system changed, nuke, gated to where our twists vanish and all become points converted into points that are just points - what is proposed for the U51 is lackluster at best, boring at worst - save our Twists of Fate!

Please, fellow gamers, DDO lovers, and D&D nerds, of which I am the biggest, help me - please - let SSG know - the U51 gate is opening and within is the ruin of our beloved Twists -

a Petition to Save Twists of Fate

Do not let U51 DDO-Gate orbital nuke this very iconic and unique part of DDO that we have come to love after all these years - Twists of Fate deserve to be preserved!

Hard to save under the new system. You would be double dipping into other EDs if you did at this point. Not that I like the new system.

[Stoner81]

/signed!

Stoner81

[donblas]

the system we have now is fun and extremely flexible and very useful

Spending most of one's time levelling useless destinies to get fate points so one can twist in a limited number of useful destiny abilities is fun?

Or it's fun once one has spent all that time and already has those fate points?

[myliftkk_v2]

Spending most of one's time levelling useless destinies to get fate points so one can twist in a limited number of useful destiny abilities is fun?

Or it's fun once one has spent all that time and already has those fate points?

I distinctly remember how fun it was running ID until my eyes bled. ;)