U51 = another massive sorc nerf

[Tebaco]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

2.) Mass frog feat
This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

3.) Spell critical chance

4.) Spell critical damage


Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

[LurkingVeteran]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

2.) Mass frog feat
This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

3.) Spell critical chance

4.) Spell critical damage


Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

I don't even understand what you are talking about. They have only previewed half the new EDs yet, and only one primary caster destiny: Primal Avatar. If you pick that, you would get Mass Frog at T5. You can also get access to more heals, and evasion (if you actually want that). You can also get better DCs overall with the new system (or at least that was their intention).

Spell crit damage and % were super rare in the old system also. Since other caster-oriented EDs aren't out yet, it's difficult to know how powerful casters will be when they can put points in up to three EDs. I would at least wait to see them. I will say that many of the spell-based spenders in the current EDs looked weak for being epic and charged attacks. Due to gear tetris, anybody wanting a spell-based attack will be a caster and have access to better spells already from L14.

[Grunthorno]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

2.) Mass frog feat
This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

3.) Spell critical chance

4.) Spell critical damage


Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?


In terms of spell critical chance/damage, the devs (Lynnabel specifically, if I remember), has said that the Epic Spell Power feats are being adjusted to have either chance or damage (I can't remember which), and they also mentioned putting more spellpower in the trees themselves?

They've also talked about scaling mobs down, so the difference in DCs doesn't matter because the mobs are losing a similar amount to their saves.

And if you REALLY need mass frog, it'll scale with your CHA now (I think), so you should be happy you don't need to do a WIS swap or gear WIS to make it work (or just use circle of death or weird (new mass PK) or wail or other instakills like prismatic?)

[slarden]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.


I don't think many (if any) sorcs maxed out their charisma in draconic, there were too many other good choices.

You should easily gain on DCs. With the new system epic resilience is removed which reduces targets saves by 6 which is effectively a boost of 6 DC. You get +3 universal DC in every casting core and +3 universal DC in every tier 5. Then you will be able to take a minimum of +3 DC to schools of your choice - say evocation and necromancy or evocation and enchantment. That alone will make your DCs for your primary and secondary school better than you had with draconic - even if you did max out charisma in draconic.

With the old system you had the following bonuses if you maxed out charisma in DI which nobody did

Evocation
3 - 6 ranks of charisma
2 - Precise Evocation
3 - Evocation Twist from Magister
3 - Draconic Cores

11 Total

Necromancy or Enchantment
3 - 6 ranks of charisma

With the new system

Evocation
6 - Effective DC gain from removal of epic resilience
3 - Universal DC in cores
3 - Universal DC in tier 5
3 - Evocation DC in a tier 3
4 - Scion of Fire (which every sorc took - )

19 Total

Necromancy or Enchantment
6 - Effective DC gain from removal of epic resilience
3 - Universal DC in cores
3 - Universal DC in tier 5
3 - Necromancy or Enchantment DC in a tier 3
2 - Scion of Fire (which every sorc took - )

17 Total

You are definitely losing DPS on your heroic spells if you were a fire sorc in draconic with scion of fire and empyrean magic twisted. It's unknown if something in Draconic will make up for this - the only thing that has been dropped about draconic is that something there will buff ruin and greater ruin with an equal amount of elemental damage (which of course gets buffed with more vulnerability).

The new system moves most casters to more of a generalist with DC and DPS build choices homogenized in the trees and legendary feats. It appears DC casters will be obsolete as there will be very little DC difference between a build that maxes DC and maxes DPS. Arcane warrior builds are getting a significant boost with the universal DC boost + removal of epic resilience + hybrid trees making those builds much more viable and much better at end game as they will have the same DC potential and still get martial dps support from hybrid trees.

It will take quite a bit of testing but the best single-target dps sorc will likely be an arcane warrior. An arcane warrior in a tier 5 martial tree will still have better DCs than a typical sorc does today as long as they go tier 3 in one casting or hybrid tree.

Casting AOE dps at end game will largely depend on what is provided in the new trees - which is unknown. As a point of reference the aoe dps of the dc warlock build in my sig is fine for soloing R6 and fine in R10 groups and I don't run in draconic, don't take scion of fire and don't twist empyrean magic, but 2 big parts of my aoe rotation are energy burst (draconic twist) and arcane tempest (magister) and it's unknown if I will lose one or both of those. The main reason I prefer dc warlock over nuking sorc is that the utility spells with a higher dc help me clear a dungeon faster compared to sorc which has terrible secondary dcs in draconic or poor survivability. It's really more of a playstyle preference than anything else - I like the mcgyver style of warlock over blasting with a smaller spell selection.

Sorc DPS has always been much better even in Magister but magister boxes you into one school. With the upcoming changes, I will have to test, but I suspect sorc will be significantly superior to warlock at clearing dungeons as dps is decidedly better and with a huge gain to all my secondary spells I should be able to match the utility of my existing warlock build with better functioning support spells.

Much will depend on the tier 5s of the unknown trees. None of the tier 5s of the known caster trees are compelling to me on a pure caster because there is not enough dps support to make up for arcane tempest and energy burst which are the 2 biggest parts of my aoe rotation.

[mikarddo]

You should easily gain on DCs. With the new system epic resilience is removed which reduces targets saves by 6 which is effectively a boost of 6 DC.

The +6 reduction is only for mobs with 100% hp. So the +6 boost is important but situational and often the boost will be smaller.

[Epicsoul]

We've not even seen the Draconic ED yet...

[slarden]

The +6 reduction is only for mobs with 100% hp. So the +6 boost is important but situational and often the boost will be smaller.

Yes I understand that, but when trying to land cc, necromancy and illusion spells I usually lead with that when the mob is at full hp. So I wouldn't call it situational - at least the way I play. I would be getting that bonus almost all the time. And as far as reflex saves once the mob is helpless they are getting massive reduction to saves - so being able to land spells that generate helplessness also helps with dps and dc on damage due to the massive reduction in reflex saves.

It's rare I would beat down a mob and then cast finger of death or hold. Usually by the time mobs are beaten down a bunch are dead already and the threat has been reduced. So yes I am comfortable with saying this is boosting my effective dc by 6.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

on EE/LE/LR try to hit something on a caster in Sharn, Ravenloft, or the Feywild - any of the new content without min/maxed DCS and watch the mobs make evasion reflex saving throws and take 0 damage.

you have to spam spells at them, dump your mana, and that's in the first room of the quest. Good luck to caster dps wanting to solo. SSG's answer is 'we sell spell point potions, did you know?'

On a warlock its worse because while you're not being hit over the head to purchase spell point potions, you are being force to kite monsters for hours to make your way to a boss that will take you 45 minutes to kill because you have awful dps.


The only good news so far is that in update 50 there is a change to address misfiring spells / spells that do nothing - lets hope

[awar1234]

More nerfs the better!!!!! I hope lots more power is lost!!!! I hope R1 is failed 80% of the time by pugs!!!
And R10 should be ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE EVEN FOR THE BEST GEARED AND BEST LEAD GRUOPS.
Get rid of reaper trees
More more more nerfs!!!!! To everyone and everything.

[Iriale]

Yes I understand that, but when trying to land cc, necromancy and illusion spells I usually lead with that when the mob is at full hp. So I wouldn't call it situational - at least the way I play. I would be getting that bonus almost all the time. And as far as reflex saves once the mob is helpless they are getting massive reduction to saves - so being able to land spells that generate helplessness also helps with dps and dc on damage due to the massive reduction in reflex saves.

It's rare I would beat down a mob and then cast finger of death or hold. Usually by the time mobs are beaten down a bunch are dead already and the threat has been reduced. So yes I am comfortable with saying this is boosting my effective dc by 6.
For me it is situational many times. Especially with the alts, who do not have many past lives and therefore less DC, my strategy is to launch a simple attack that minimally damages the mob and with that their saves are much more reasonable for both CC and instantkill. Again, if all they do is remove epic resilence, this is a nerf for the alts. It is also a nerf for assassins and other melees.

[rabidfox]

We've not even seen the Draconic ED yet...

Exactly. Other than liking the chance to apply cocoon on heals in Primal Avatar & the nifty AoE cocoon + fire damage ability(albeit not working right), I didn't have much to say as a divine caster this time around. I really liked some of the new flavor/abilities they added but how things will be in the end for my heals/DPS/DC's will have to wait for the next preview when they add the missing trees; could be horrible but I expect it'll be fine with some fun new toys like primal brought in.

[niknight]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

2.) Mass frog feat
This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

3.) Spell critical chance

4.) Spell critical damage


Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

As it currently exists, Draconic gives +9 DC to your choice of Conjuration or Evocation, and +6 to the other. Under the newly announced paradigm (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/524813-U51-Early-Preview-Epic-Destiny-Revamp-Design-Paradigm), what you get is even better: You get +3 to all DC's in tier 5, +3 to all DC's from the cores, and +3 to your choice of Conjuration or Evocation from a tier 3. For a total of +9 to either Conjuration or Evocation, and +6 to every other school. This is in addition to whatever you'd get from your other ED's. In addition, they're going to be removing Epic and Legendary Resilience from mobs, which drops their saves even lower.

[LightBear]

Most of the "wait a minute, this is not good for my build" kinda feeling in this thread comes from dev talk in one of the live streams.

And yeah, what was said there basically boiled down to "see this hammer sorcs?"

[slarden]

For me it is situational many times. Especially with the alts, who do not have many past lives and therefore less DC, my strategy is to launch a simple attack that minimally damages the mob and with that their saves are much more reasonable for both CC and instantkill. Again, if all they do is remove epic resilence, this is a nerf for the alts. It is also a nerf for assassins and other melees.

For a blaster even without epic resilience your effective dcs are up across the board. DPS is down. Most of the arcane trees are unknown so it's hard to assess how casters will be impacted at this point.

I think people will need to mix up their strategies a bit. At least for me the way to push skulls on a caster is by expanding your toolkit as much as possible. It's hard to push skulls blasting through a dungeon- you are much more impacted by minor dps nerfs with this approach as well.

The change to epic reslience is not a nerf for assassins or melees because it has no impact on them at all.

[Iriale]

For a blaster even without epic resilience your effective dcs are up across the board. DPS is down. Most of the arcane trees are unknown so it's hard to assess how casters will be impacted at this point.

I think people will need to mix up their strategies a bit. At least for me the way to push skulls on a caster is by expanding your toolkit as much as possible. It's hard to push skulls blasting through a dungeon- you are much more impacted by minor dps nerfs with this approach as well.

The change to epic reslience is not a nerf for assassins or melees because it has no impact on them at all.
precisely, they lose stats like everyone else, but if the only thing devs do with the npcs is remove epic resilence, it is a nerf for their abilities.

At the moment I do not speak with the development of the arcanes because we have not seen the arcane trees. I can only say that I don't like the level-gated system, that I like the builder-carges system even less, and that the fact that the paths in primal avatar are exclusive seems like a slap in the face to the concept of a druid that can change seasons. They have been designing in this direction for a while and it is really annoying that they end up consolidating themselves in the wrong way. Since it is the basic design of the EDs that repels me, I do not expect a result that brings me fun,

[slarden]

precisely, they lose stats like everyone else, but if the only thing devs do with the npcs is remove epic resilence, it is a nerf for their abilities.

At the moment I do not speak with the development of the arcanes because we have not seen the arcane trees. I can only say that I don't like the level-gated system, that I like the builder-carges system even less, and that the fact that the paths in primal avatar are exclusive seems like a slap in the face to the concept of a druid that can change seasons. They have been designing in this direction for a while and it is really annoying that they end up consolidating themselves in the wrong way. Since it is the basic design of the EDs that repels me, I do not expect a result that brings me fun,

There are a few arcane/hybrid trees available and the philosophy on DC for all trees was clearly stated. Every caster tree will have +3 universal in cores, +3 universal in tier 5 and +3 to various schools multiselector in tier 3. This will not stack with other destinies but when when combined with epic resilience is more than what was available in magister previously.

Almost all casters should end up with higher relative dcs except a few high DC magister builds - max dc illusionist, conjuration and evocation builds due to the ability to twist additional stacking dc from draconic on top of the 12 points in magister and 2.5 from stats. That is compared to 9 in the caster tree + 6 from epic resilience - except you don't need to be in magister to get that.

For me the key is not DC which is clearly a win for almost everyone. What aoe damage will I have to replace arcane tempest and energy burst twist which I currently have on my magister builds? Will there be single-target dps improvements so casters can fill dps roles in raids? We can't comment on that until we see the next preview with more caster trees.

[TedSandyman]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

2.) Mass frog feat
This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

3.) Spell critical chance

4.) Spell critical damage


Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

Yeah, but this change isn't aimed at ONLY sorcs and I doubt it affects sorcs worse than any other class.

It affects everyone. I'm sure all classes can point to some high tier item and cry nerf.

[silinteresting]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

2.) Mass frog feat
This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

3.) Spell critical chance

4.) Spell critical damage


Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

some of draconic too come has been mentioned,
you need to watch some chats with the devs that
are out.

your friend sil :)

[Singular]

on EE/LE/LR try to hit something on a caster in Sharn, Ravenloft, or the Feywild - any of the new content without min/maxed DCS and watch the mobs make evasion reflex saving throws and take 0 damage.

you have to spam spells at them, dump your mana, and that's in the first room of the quest. Good luck to caster dps wanting to solo. SSG's answer is 'we sell spell point potions, did you know?'

On a warlock its worse because while you're not being hit over the head to purchase spell point potions, you are being force to kite monsters for hours to make your way to a boss that will take you 45 minutes to kill because you have awful dps.


The only good news so far is that in update 50 there is a change to address misfiring spells / spells that do nothing - lets hope

I play an AOE dps sorc in Shiradi and can solo Fey R3s fairly well. Definitely not R4s though.

[Tebaco]

Yeah, but this change isn't aimed at ONLY sorcs and I doubt it affects sorcs worse than any other class.

It affects everyone. I'm sure all classes can point to some high tier item and cry nerf.

As U50 changes introduced it clear that sorcs and other casters are nerfed much more than other classes. It looks like DDO will die soon.

[Lonnbeimnech]

hopefully the draconic tree has a few ways of reducing spell point cost or regen sp, or large temp sp on crit or all of the above

something to allow sorcs to contribute in raids

[Anuulified]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

2.) Mass frog feat
This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

3.) Spell critical chance

4.) Spell critical damage


Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

This is a player nerf, not just sorc nerf. The results are tbd, but not a fan yet myself.

[slarden]

This is a player nerf, not just sorc nerf. The results are tbd, but not a fan yet myself.
That doesn't appear to be the case. It's a stat squish where they want to flatten the curve of stats in advance of the next level increase.

The plan is to do this with players and enemies so it ends up being a wash with no impact on difficulty.

Of course it won't go perfect and will take a few releases to get all the issues worked out, but I haven't seen any indication their goal is to nerf players.

[Tebaco]

That doesn't appear to be the case. It's a stat squish where they want to flatten the curve of stats in advance of the next level increase.

The plan is to do this with players and enemies so it ends up being a wash with no impact on difficulty.

Of course it won't go perfect and will take a few releases to get all the issues worked out, but I haven't seen any indication their goal is to nerf players.

Impact is clear. DPS casters loosing more than other builds. Loosing crit sources that actually matters. And have already sux cd spells. Meaning they do about half damage of average melee player.
And there is bonus announcement that they plan to keep mobs buffed in reaper just for challange. So in this point of view caster couldnt be viable in reaper so that player who like playing caster exit game.

[rabidfox]

Impact is clear. DPS casters loosing more than other builds. Loosing crit sources that actually matters. And have already sux cd spells. Meaning they do about half damage of average melee player.
And there is bonus announcement that they plan to keep mobs buffed in reaper just for challange. So in this point of view caster couldnt be viable in reaper so that player who like playing caster exit game.

Still haven't seen the u51 caster trees yet, in which I hope those help balance everything out; but it may be an annoying few months between u50 and u51 for us with changes vs other DPS types.

[slarden]

Impact is clear. DPS casters loosing more than other builds. Loosing crit sources that actually matters. And have already sux cd spells. Meaning they do about half damage of average melee player.
And there is bonus announcement that they plan to keep mobs buffed in reaper just for challange. So in this point of view caster couldnt be viable in reaper so that player who like playing caster exit game.


That isn't until U51 and we don't yet know the full picture as the arcane trees haven't been previewed.

What we know for sure there is a slight dps nerf and a massive DC gain for dps sorcs. I don't see how the massive dc gain doesn't translate to a win for most players.

[Tebaco]

That isn't until U51 and we don't yet know the full picture as the arcane trees haven't been previewed.

What we know for sure there is a slight dps nerf and a massive DC gain for dps sorcs. I don't see how the massive dc gain doesn't translate to a win for most players.

1.) In u51 thread dev wrote that in ed is no crits so dont try to fool us
2.) it is not slight dps nerf but huge and it is not dc gain but dc lose. Stop lie in this thread and read official forum or better do some play tests.

[mr420247]

And still no word on a single sorc tree pass so they at least had some slas that idk work

AMs in dire need of a pass too

[Matuse]

Impact is clear. DPS casters loosing more than other builds.

The impact is not the least bit clear, and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Instead you are just doomsaying out of total ignorance about the changes to literally all caster EDs.

[Karthunk]

1.) In u51 thread dev wrote that in ed is no crits so dont try to fool us
2.) it is not slight dps nerf but huge and it is not dc gain but dc lose. Stop lie in this thread and read official forum or better do some play tests.

Good and if you don't like the power creep reduction you should quit.

[slarden]

it is not dc gain but dc lose. Stop lie in this thread and read official forum or better do some play tests.

I am not sure where you are getting your information from, but the DC information we know for sure and the new trees will have the same exact DC approach according to the release notes:

With the old system you had the following bonuses if you maxed out charisma in DI which nobody did

Evocation
3 - 6 ranks of charisma
2 - Precise Evocation
3 - Evocation Twist from Magister
3 - Draconic Cores

11 Total

Necromancy or Enchantment
3 - 6 ranks of charisma

With the new system

Evocation
6 - Effective DC gain from removal of epic resilience
3 - Universal DC in cores
3 - Universal DC in tier 5
3 - Evocation DC in a tier 3
4 - Scion of Fire (which every sorc took - )

19 Total

Necromancy or Enchantment
6 - Effective DC gain from removal of epic resilience
3 - Universal DC in cores
3 - Universal DC in tier 5
3 - Necromancy or Enchantment DC in a tier 3
2 - Scion of Fire (which every sorc took - )

17 Total

We haven't seen the arcane trees so we don't yet know what those will have - aside from DC which is standardized across all caster trees.

[zooble]

My biggest gripe is that changes like spell crit chance reduction will be implemented under the guise of a "mobs will be balanced to match". Quite frankly that is false since to do that, you wouldn't be adjusting spell crit chance at all (or doublestrike). I've said it before (in different words) and I'll say it again, if a crit could 1 shot a mob before, and giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming it still can in the future, but won't do it as often anymore (spell crit chance reduction), how is that preserving the status quo?

That alone is a nerf regardless of whether the remaining player nerfs match mob nerfs (or even balance caster and non-caster nerfs for that matter).

The game has been centered around big crits for as long as I can remember and now it's changing? Remember auto-crit firewalls? Crits are **** fun. There's nothing less fun than using a big ability and it has no impact on the fight.

Or maybe people are right in that 31+ will have them bring back whatever they took away. Since if you were already at 100% double strike what's the point of more double strike on 31+ gear?

[Arctigis]

If you don't like it, don't play or play but keep your money in your wallet. Forum posts
don't do anything.

[Tebaco]

Good and if you don't like the power creep reduction you should quit.

What power creep on sorcerers? All i remember are nerfs that come in many waves. Sorc do 1/2 or half of melee dps.

[Tebaco]

I am not sure where you are getting your information from, but the DC information we know for sure and the new trees will have the same exact DC approach according to the release notes:

With the old system you had the following bonuses if you maxed out charisma in DI which nobody did

Evocation
3 - 6 ranks of charisma
2 - Precise Evocation
3 - Evocation Twist from Magister
3 - Draconic Cores

11 Total

Necromancy or Enchantment
3 - 6 ranks of charisma

With the new system

Evocation
6 - Effective DC gain from removal of epic resilience
3 - Universal DC in cores
3 - Universal DC in tier 5
3 - Evocation DC in a tier 3
4 - Scion of Fire (which every sorc took - )

19 Total

Necromancy or Enchantment
6 - Effective DC gain from removal of epic resilience
3 - Universal DC in cores
3 - Universal DC in tier 5
3 - Necromancy or Enchantment DC in a tier 3
2 - Scion of Fire (which every sorc took - )

17 Total

We haven't seen the arcane trees so we don't yet know what those will have - aside from DC which is standardized across all caster trees.


Its off because u dont listen. In reaper they leave mobs buffed. And other point is that u advertise gated option for additional dc that is off u bacause you compare apples and oranges and also source of this dc boost is unknown since there are no casters eds for preview yet. And lastly we loose twisted stats and stats in eds alone that help dc too.

[slarden]

Its off because u dont listen. In reaper they leave mobs buffed. And other point is that u advertise gated option for additional dc that is off u bacause you compare apples and oranges and also source of this dc boost is unknown since there are no casters eds for preview yet. And lastly we loose twisted stats and stats in eds alone that help dc too.

The issue isn't that I am not listening - you appear to be completely lost and didn't do your homework on these changes before complaining. You need to read this: U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Design Paradigm - Page 3 (ddo.com) (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/524813-U51-Early-Preview-Epic-Destiny-Revamp-Design-Paradigm?p=6438026&viewfull=1#post6438026)

The dc boost in U51 ED trees is fully known and explained in the U51 release notes. The caster trees not yet previewed will have the same philosophy for DC per the notes.

All changes being made to elite are applied to reaper mode. The only thing potentially not changing is the reaper scaling and you haven't provided any data points that demonstrate it's as big of a problem as you claim.

[Oxarhamar]

That doesn't appear to be the case. It's a stat squish where they want to flatten the curve of stats in advance of the next level increase.

The plan is to do this with players and enemies so it ends up being a wash with no impact on difficulty.

Of course it won't go perfect and will take a few releases to get all the issues worked out, but I haven't seen any indication their goal is to nerf players.

The results are yet to be seen even if enemies are adjusted downwards which has been said about lower level epics what of the higher levels if they stay the same it’s still a nerf

Even if the enemies are adjusting down in a balanced way with players power it will still feel like a nerf just on the face with lower numbers

All yourn maths are purely speculative at this point in time

[Oxarhamar]

If you don't like it, don't play or play but keep your money in your wallet. Forum posts
don't do anything.

Incorrect feedback on U51 has been heard we will see what the next wave of changes will be

[Hobgoblin]

The issue isn't that I am not listening - you appear to be completely lost and didn't do your homework on these changes before complaining. You need to read this: U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Design Paradigm - Page 3 (ddo.com) (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/524813-U51-Early-Preview-Epic-Destiny-Revamp-Design-Paradigm?p=6438026&viewfull=1#post6438026)

The dc boost in U51 ED trees is fully known and explained in the U51 release notes. The caster trees not yet previewed will have the same philosophy for DC per the notes.

All changes being made to elite are applied to reaper mode. The only thing potentially not changing is the reaper scaling and you haven't provided any data points that demonstrate it's as big of a problem as you claim.

lynn did say something about that.......

i dont have the quote handy (will look for after i finish this post lol) but they said there were flat increases in reaper that arnt going away and will probably make reaper harder in that fashion. how much harder? that is hard to tell for sure and will need to be tested.


This is largely correct.

Reaper mode does a few things to monsters. Some of those things are proportional, some are flat. What this means that in some ways, Reaper mode will in fact be getting harder, because the flat bonuses are not changing. If the base value of the bonus goes down proportionally, but the flat reaper mode stuff stays the same, then yes, this does weirdly enough put us in a situation where NOT adjusting Reaper mode's rules will make it effectively proportionally more difficult.


found the quote and sorry if you have already seen it as they were responding to you

[slarden]

The results are yet to be seen even if enemies are adjusted downwards which has been said about lower level epics what of the higher levels if they stay the same it’s still a nerf

Even if the enemies are adjusting down in a balanced way with players power it will still feel like a nerf just on the face with lower numbers

All yourn maths are purely speculative at this point in time

The math isn't speculative, everything in there is directly stated in the release notes and everything not confirmed was not put in the U51 #s. Sure it's possible things can change but I am showing math based on what is listed in the release notes or direct dev comments.

The base of a reaper quest reflects all the downward enemy adjustments. Only the reaper scaling and reaper enemies is not adjusted (and may not be). We've been crushing these adjustments for years and I think that little aspect is being over-played.

[Oxarhamar]

The math isn't speculative, everything in there is directly stated in the release notes and everything not confirmed was not put in the U51 #s. Sure it's possible things can change but I am showing math based on what is listed in the release notes or direct dev comments.

The base of a reaper quest reflects all the downward enemy adjustments. Only the reaper scaling and reaper enemies is not adjusted (and may not be). We've been crushing these adjustments for years and I think that little aspect is being over-played.

pure speculation

Your own response proves your concept wrong

If reaper is not adjusted down while player damage is that’s is simply a nerf

& again even if reaper was adjusted down when players get smaller damage numbers that will make a difference

[merlinfire1]

I hoped that with some new cool update I could eventually return to game but it is not happening.

So what is happening is just another nerf and now it pretty big.

So what we sorcs lose?

1.) DC
There are not ED stats to spent. And with all changes we lose about 3DC? Correct me if u can.

2.) Mass frog feat
This is another big nerf for raiding adventures.

3.) Spell critical chance

4.) Spell critical damage


Yet there are no news about new abilities or spells to use in epics for sorcs.

So will you continue playing or look for another game or just wait till more news come?

Ya'll need to quit freaking out when you don't even know the whole story here. Go watch Strimtom's talk with the devs about how this is being done, it will explain. TLDR: it's boring to have ED boxes that are just straight stats, so they're reworking it so that those DC's come from other places in the trees. Overall, the intent is to be just as powerful but with more flexibility.

Also, your concern about Frog, if you look over Primal Avatar, you'll see that it will be a good sorc tree now.

[dunklezhan]

pure speculation

Your own response proves your concept wrong

If reaper is not adjusted down while player damage is that’s is simply a nerf

& again even if reaper was adjusted down when players get smaller damage numbers that will make a difference

Reaper is supposed to be stupid hard, the most challenging content for the most well equipped and skilled players. So very likely this will just mean people are dropping down a skull level or two for a while and the very highest reapers would only be doable based on best gear *and* best skill. How's that a bad thing? Surely that's just increasing the challenge & extending the lifespan of R1-10 in epics?

Beyond that:
- Heroic players see literally no change.

- Epic players see smaller numbers, but the smaller numbers go proportionally further, the intention is that this is actually at worse net-zero in terms of player effectiveness, and I pity people who lack the imagination to see beyond 'smaller numbers'.

So what exactly is the problem? That the stupid-hard, intended to be unfair difficulty level is going to be stupid hard, and unfair?

I genuinely don't understand the objection if you are a regular Reaper player: at worst they simple made reaper mode more... well... reaper. And even then, only in epics.

[mr420247]

Couldn't care less bout reaper finished my trees what most peeps care about is having some of there favorite classes nerfed from orbit into oblivion

Thats not fun and why do we game to have fun everything else is just grind which is fine too

DC casters are getting a small some what power boost with this at least 1 aoe insta kill frog or weird

and Trap the soul spell component so you don't have to waste your time at the stone of change epic win there

what are DPS casters getting nothing but nerfs and more nerfs not very balanced is it

[AbyssalMage]

Reaper is supposed to be stupid hard, the most challenging content for the most well equipped and skilled players. So very likely this will just mean people are dropping down a skull level or two for a while and the very highest reapers would only be doable based on best gear *and* best skill. How's that a bad thing? Surely that's just increasing the challenge & extending the lifespan of R1-10 in epics?
Increasing it for who? The people who have already completed most of their grind or the players who have yet to break the 50% mark?

I agree "Reaper is supposed to be stupid hard" but that shipped sailed when they refused to listen to people, like me, who said the only reward should have been cosmetic. Instead they gave players HP's, DPS, and Defense. They gave players power creep. The they released itemization to assist you in Reaper. They then updated XP so the only way you can get full credit for an adventure is by playing Reaper. The game has been developed for Reaper. The. Ship. Has. Sailed.

Difficulty is static thanks to limited AI. That is why we got Reaper (and bad NPC density from developers). Excluding the fact we don't know much about the caster trees we know non-casters are losing flexibility thanks to the re-engineered trees and feats. We can assume the same thing will happen to casters. I didn't look at you join date but we don't need a return to "Shroud and ToD" gating.


Beyond that:
- Heroic players see literally no change.
They can only release so many nerfs at once. I fully expect them to "circle around." They've also "painted" themselves into a corner for Heroic loot.


- Epic players see smaller numbers, but the smaller numbers go proportionally further, the intention is that this is actually at worse net-zero in terms of player effectiveness, and I pity people who lack the imagination to see beyond 'smaller numbers'.
Oh, I am fine with "smaller numbers." What I am not fine with is keeping the inflated numbers on NPC's. I'll wait to see if they keep this part of the promise. The last two years shows they don't have a positive track record. But some individuals like being fooled.


So what exactly is the problem? That the stupid-hard, intended to be unfair difficulty level is going to be stupid hard, and unfair?

I genuinely don't understand the objection if you are a regular Reaper player: at worst they simple made reaper mode more... well... reaper. And even then, only in epics.
A) They made Reaper the META. That (could be/is) a source of contention.
B) "Gating" the community causes players to quit: ToD, Shroud, CitW (bring SP potions), and FoT (ranged option or you sat out for someone who could). Honestly the last time they gated players was FoT from memory. Ravenloft they ensured everyone had Silver/Holy.
C) You believe the development team will stop at just "epic's" is just amusing to me. They will get around to heroics too. They just can't do everything at once. They need "Cheerleaders" for cover.

[Oxarhamar]

Reaper is supposed to be stupid hard, the most challenging content for the most well equipped and skilled players. So very likely this will just mean people are dropping down a skull level or two for a while and the very highest reapers would only be doable based on best gear *and* best skill. How's that a bad thing? Surely that's just increasing the challenge & extending the lifespan of R1-10 in epics?

Beyond that:
- Heroic players see literally no change.

- Epic players see smaller numbers, but the smaller numbers go proportionally further, the intention is that this is actually at worse net-zero in terms of player effectiveness, and I pity people who lack the imagination to see beyond 'smaller numbers'.

So what exactly is the problem? That the stupid-hard, intended to be unfair difficulty level is going to be stupid hard, and unfair?

I genuinely don't understand the objection if you are a regular Reaper player: at worst they simple made reaper mode more... well... reaper. And even then, only in epics.

I don't disagree in concept thou it's still a nerf & while the thread was mainly about Sorc that has not been the only nerf

For me I'd perfer smaller numbers at the top in the big damage spikes but, increase in overall consistency of damage but, thats just me.

A nerf is a nerf and if the mobs aren't all scaled to meet the nerf than it's a nerf no matter the math.

[slarden]

pure speculation

Your own response proves your concept wrong

If reaper is not adjusted down while player damage is that’s is simply a nerf

& again even if reaper was adjusted down when players get smaller damage numbers that will make a difference

Nonsense. The dc bonuses in U51 are known - fact.

The existing reaper scaling already exists, is known and easily overcome - fact.

The stat squish impact was available on lamannia and known - fact.

It's not hard to put all the pieces together and understand people peeing their pants over reaper scaling are over-reacting. Especially people with alot of past lifes and reaper points benefiting from those things not getting stat squished.

Sure reaper scaling is staying the same while stats are going down a little. But reaper tree and past life benefits are not changing either and if they adjusted reaper scaling by the same % as the stat squish they would need to also apply the stat squish to past lifes and reaper trees. Be careful what you ask for. There is a high correlation between players that participate in high skulls and have alot of past lifes and reaper points. So high skulls should be fine, reaper rewards are beyond ridiculous.

So if elite is scaled so that player power and monster power are changed by the same amount it's all good. Reaper scaling isn't change and neither is player power from past lifes and reaper trees. Seems very unfair to lower reaper scaling to me except at lower skulls where people tend to have less of that unchanged power.

The reason why I think giving some relief to low skull players (via adjusting reaper scaling for r1-r4 only) deservers consideration is they tend to have less power from past lifes and reaper trees (which aren't getting stat squished) so are more impacted by this change.


A nerf is a nerf and if the mobs aren't all scaled to meet the nerf than it's a nerf no matter the math.

No, the math matters significantly and the devs have always said they don't balance to reaper - so there is no obligation to change anything.

[Oxarhamar]

Nonsense. The bonuses in U51 are known - fact.

The existing reaper scaling already exists, is known and easily overcome - fact.

The stat squish impact was available on lamannia and known - fact.

Sure reaper scaling is staying the same while stats are going down a little. But reaper tree and past life benefits are not changing either and if they adjusted reaper scaling by the same % as the stat squish they would need to also apply the stat squish to past lifes and reaper trees. Be careful what you ask for. There is a high correlation between players that participate in high skulls and have alot of past lifes and reaper points. So high skulls should be fine, reaper rewards are beyond ridiculous.

The reason why I think giving some relief to low skull players deservers consideration is they tend to have less power from past lifes and reaper trees (which aren't getting stat squished) so are more impacted by this change more.

That nonsence is yourn & it's still a nerf.

Don't tell me to "be careful" for something I haven't asked for speak for yaself instead.

[mr420247]

The dif is instakills will still work as always if your 3x everything if not good luck butter cup

but epic aoe dps will still be garbage and not able to kill anything no matter how much blue bar u blow

Thats current now after the nerfs good luck

[slarden]

That nonsence is yourn & it's still a nerf.

Don't tell me to "be careful" for something I haven't asked for speak for yaself instead.

Again, you claim things 100% known are speculation, please do your homework.

[mr420247]

Wail implosion weird frog is like 1 kill for 5 mobs so on r10 10-50k that works almost no fail on r10 vs all other epic dps caster options which there are none that even

come close so thats 100k dps for maxd out fvs and pms every 90 secs vs what exactly and its a hell of alot cheaper blue bar wise then dps casts

Trash only but ok

[Oxarhamar]

Again, you claim things 100% known are speculation, please do your homework.

Do you own homework instead of putting words in others mouths

nerf is a nerf

You speculate all that you like I play tested 51 on Lama there is definitely nerfs even if you trivialize the effect it will have its noticeable in the numbers right away.


The final level of nerfs won’t even be know until after the second pass of testing assuming that we get a second pass since it was given earlier & the Devs acknowledge that they are taking feedback into consideration when the final changes come to the regular server then we will know

that is why players are giving feedback now.

Here is Lynn's direct responce to you


This is largely correct.

Reaper mode does a few things to monsters. Some of those things are proportional, some are flat. What this means that in some ways, Reaper mode will in fact be getting harder, because the flat bonuses are not changing. If the base value of the bonus goes down proportionally, but the flat reaper mode stuff stays the same, then yes, this does weirdly enough put us in a situation where NOT adjusting Reaper mode's rules will make it effectively proportionally more difficult.

^^ nerf

[mr420247]

When even TIL is gonna quit after u51 and he can build you almost anything out of anything i just don't know anymore

[Seph1roth5]

- Epic players see smaller numbers, but the smaller numbers go proportionally further, the intention is that this is actually at worse net-zero in terms of player effectiveness, and I pity people who lack the imagination to see beyond 'smaller numbers'.

.

Having a net zero change in player effectiveness would be great, but that's not what we got on the last lam build. A lot of people tested various builds and all were reporting like...20-40% loss in dps. And since the enemy HP didn't go down, that's a huge net NON-zero.

I don't have all the math handy, but basically spellcasters were getting multi-smacked down. Loss of spellpower, loss of spell critical chance, loss of spell critical damage, and this being a lam build with the soon-to-be changed epic destinies. So when the new ED come out there'll be even less of those things.

Devs SEEM to think that it's just small changes and should be fine, but not looking at all the small #s add/multiply together.

I did some testing myself using my pale master on live/lam, running EE/r1 no refunds in Sharn. My damage was definitely lower. It wasn't a gigantic overwhelming difference like going from EN to R1 or anything, but every enemy/mob took 1-3 more spells to kill. That doesn't SOUND like a lot, but if every single mob you fight takes longer to kill...it's clearly a big nerf to dps.

They keep hawking how lower saves means your spells will land more, and while that IS true, they definitely saved less often vs. my spells, that didn't really make a big difference.

Now in a party yeah having CC land more is always good, but that's not a good tradeoff. There's been a lot of nonsensical balancing in u50-51. Taking things away we ALREADY HAVE and replacing them with the option to use things you DON'T HAVE/have to spend pts on is not equal!

[mr420247]

And yet dc casters still don't lose a single dps point at all at r10 but its so balanced and fair

2-3 pks fod wail weird and trap the soul and PWK rinse repeat where is the dps options at

We got a usless hell ball that costs a 100 sp and won't kill jack on r1

And this garbage costs an epic feat like seriously

[Tebaco]

When even TIL is gonna quit after u51 and he can build you almost anything out of anything i just don't know anymore

I dont clearly understand what do you mean by that message. Pls translate

[Tebaco]

And yet dc casters still don't lose a single dps point at all at r10 but its so balanced and fair

2-3 pks fod wail weird and trap the soul and PWK rinse repeat where is the dps options at

We got a usless hell ball that costs a 100 sp and won't kill jack on r1

And this garbage costs an epic feat like seriously

Yes it seems like they changing game to barbarian only runs with some support or healbot maybe and maybe casterbot for land some cc. Because its fun to run bots.

[mr420247]

Yes welcome to the new DDO

pally w no dire charge or barb or

FVS PM ALCH bots or take it up the A with no lube

Tilomere great builder even he is probably done after this epic train wreck

[slarden]

You speculate


You can continue to call things directly from the release bulletin and dev statements "speculation" if you wish - it will never make it right. Lynnabel confirmed what I was saying - that all the monster stat squish changes on elite will apply to reaper and the only thing not changing in reaper mode is reaper monster stats (carnage, doom, etc.) and reaper scaling.

Everything I listed was right from the release notes and dev quotes.

The devs are balancing player and enemy stats on elite. They aren't currently adjusting reaper scaling and steelstar said that was under discussion on the livestream but it was his personal opinion that reaper is too easy for players - statements on the forums would seem to support this.

They aren't adjusting reaper scaling AND they aren't adjusting reaper enhancement AND they aren't adjusting past life benefits. The latter being example of things not being changed with the stat squish that benefits players.

If you run reaper you should already understand how reaper scaling works through R10 and how easily players are overcoming those buffs/debuffs. This is something players that run reaper regularly have known since the last time they updated reaper difficulty and scaling - it's not new and not speculative. I know very well how changes work from R4 to R6 and then to R8 and R10.

You can call it a nerf, but I find that type of comment useless and unhelpful. If someone wants to provide meaningful feedback they should run the same quests on the same difficulty on live and then lamannia and note if a specific enemy or encounter seems out of balance. The devs have already announced many tweaks based on useful feedback from players.

As I said and many others have also said, R1-R4 would be the place to make downward adjustments in reaper mode if the devs want to help players trying to make the jump from elite to reaper without all the reaper points, past lifes, etc. R5+ is fine and I seriously doubt any of this will change what skull I run at - and if it does that is fine with me. It's a challenge mode.

[Arctigis]

You can continue to call things directly from the release bulletin and dev statements "speculation" if you wish - it will never make it right. Lynnabel confirmed what I was saying - that all the monster stat squish changes on elite will apply to reaper and the only thing not changing in reaper mode is reaper monster stats (carnage, doom, etc.) and reaper scaling.

Everything I listed was right from the release notes and dev quotes.

The devs are balancing player and enemy stats on elite. They aren't currently adjusting reaper scaling and steelstar said that was under discussion on the livestream but it was his personal opinion that reaper is too easy for players - statements on the forums would seem to support this.

They aren't adjusting reaper scaling AND they aren't adjusting reaper enhancement AND they aren't adjusting past life benefits. The latter being example of things not being changed with the stat squish that benefits players.

If you run reaper you should already understand how reaper scaling works through R10 and how easily players are overcoming those buffs/debuffs. This is something players that run reaper regularly have known since the last time they updated reaper difficulty and scaling - it's not new and not speculative. I know very well how changes work from R4 to R6 and then to R8 and R10.

You can call it a nerf, but I find that type of comment useless and unhelpful. If someone wants to provide meaningful feedback they should run the same quests on the same difficulty on live and then lamannia and note if a specific enemy or encounter seems out of balance. The devs have already announced many tweaks based on useful feedback from players.

As I said and many others have also said, R1-R4 would be the place to make downward adjustments in reaper mode if the devs want to help players trying to make the jump from elite to reaper without all the reaper points, past lifes, etc. R5+ is fine and I seriously doubt any of this will change what skull I run at - and if it does that is fine with me. It's a challenge mode.

U50 v1 on Lammania only had scaling for mob saves in epic and a removal of
the T2 Legendary buff (Sharn+). HP and damage was the same. I don't know
what the final version will be but discussions on discord did not make me very
confident that the stats squish will be net neutral as is being promulgated.

[slarden]

And yet dc casters still don't lose a single dps point at all at r10 but its so balanced and fair

2-3 pks fod wail weird and trap the soul and PWK rinse repeat where is the dps options at

We got a usless hell ball that costs a 100 sp and won't kill jack on r1

And this garbage costs an epic feat like seriously

I think more accurately DC casting as a specialty is effectively eliminated in U51 since all trees have the same DC stats and no option exists to max out stat pt instead of taking other things.

With U51 DPS and DC spellcasters can effectively be grouped into a single category - Pure Casters. The only differentiation will be which Tier 5 ability a caster wants and I think players will quickly gravitate towards one or two tier 5 trees - whatever the top dps tree and whatever tree has the best R10 DC support.

I think the intriguing thing with U51 is the hybrid trees which allows an arcane or divine warrior to have both reasonable martial dps combined with top-tier dcs. This is a whole new set of builds to explore and optimize and even without maxing martial dps - beating caster dps is an extremely low bar to beat currently so there seems to be tremendous potential unless casting dps gets a boost. A warchanter with really good dcs + everything is nothing + party buffs + fatesinger dps support sounds really good to me.

[Oxarhamar]

You can continue to call things directly from the release bulletin and dev statements "speculation" if you wish - it will never make it right. Lynnabel confirmed what I was saying - that all the monster stat squish changes on elite will apply to reaper and the only thing not changing in reaper mode is reaper monster stats (carnage, doom, etc.) and reaper scaling.

Everything I listed was right from the release notes and dev quotes.

The devs are balancing player and enemy stats on elite. They aren't currently adjusting reaper scaling and steelstar said that was under discussion on the livestream but it was his personal opinion that reaper is too easy for players - statements on the forums would seem to support this.

They aren't adjusting reaper scaling AND they aren't adjusting reaper enhancement AND they aren't adjusting past life benefits. The latter being example of things not being changed with the stat squish that benefits players.

If you run reaper you should already understand how reaper scaling works through R10 and how easily players are overcoming those buffs/debuffs. This is something players that run reaper regularly have known since the last time they updated reaper difficulty and scaling - it's not new and not speculative. I know very well how changes work from R4 to R6 and then to R8 and R10.

You can call it a nerf, but I find that type of comment useless and unhelpful. If someone wants to provide meaningful feedback they should run the same quests on the same difficulty on live and then lamannia and note if a specific enemy or encounter seems out of balance. The devs have already announced many tweaks based on useful feedback from players.

As I said and many others have also said, R1-R4 would be the place to make downward adjustments in reaper mode if the devs want to help players trying to make the jump from elite to reaper without all the reaper points, past lifes, etc. R5+ is fine and I seriously doubt any of this will change what skull I run at - and if it does that is fine with me. It's a challenge mode.

Incorrect it is your feedback who calls it what you like like the nerf if in the notes & you dismiss it despite players having run on Lama

Including myself already stated as such but you ignore that and give what if statements



You are still wrong & there is still a nerf as per the devs statements & players testing so far

I don’t think that you listen to anything other than what you choose there are more players in this thread that have stated they tested and there is a nerf



Nerf is nerf & sorc ain’t the only thing being nerfed

Lynn confirmed what you said & also confirmed that there was a nerf again you can pick only the part of Lynn statement that you like but that doesn’t change it



I tested on Lama and there is no need to test it vs live as already play there and it is 100% noticeable there are nerfs

I have given already feedback that “overwhelming majority” (quote Cordo) of players agreed with the devs have confirmed that they are working changes on now so we have no idea what will be the next iterations yet

The feedback is unhelpful only to you

Here is some more


on EE/LE/LR try to hit something on a caster in Sharn, Ravenloft, or the Feywild - any of the new content without min/maxed DCS and watch the mobs make evasion reflex saving throws and take 0 damage.

you have to spam spells at them, dump your mana, and that's in the first room of the quest. Good luck to caster dps wanting to solo. SSG's answer is 'we sell spell point potions, did you know?'

On a warlock its worse because while you're not being hit over the head to purchase spell point potions, you are being force to kite monsters for hours to make your way to a boss that will take you 45 minutes to kill because you have awful dps.


The only good news so far is that in update 50 there is a change to address misfiring spells / spells that do nothing - lets hope

[Oxarhamar]

U50 v1 on Lammania only had scaling for mob saves in epic and a removal of
the T2 Legendary buff (Sharn+). HP and damage was the same. I don't know
what the final version will be but discussions on discord did not make me very
confident that the stats squish will be net neutral as is being promulgated.

Thanks for adding that but all evidence already has been made and already ignored or dismissed you can lead a horse to water & all

[slarden]

Incorrect it is your feedback who calls it what you like like the nerf if in the notes & you dismiss it despite players having run on Lama

Including myself already stated as such but you ignore that and give what if statements

You are still wrong & there is still a nerf as per the devs statements & players testing so far

I don’t think that you listen to anything other than what you choose there are more players in this thread that have stated they tested and there is a nerf

Nerf is nerf & sorc ain’t the only thing being nerfed

Lynn confirmed what you said & also confirmed that there was a nerf again you can pick only the part of Lynn statement that you like but that doesn’t change it

I tested on Lama and there is no need to test it vs live as already play there and it is 100% noticeable there are nerfs

I have given already feedback that “overwhelming majority” (quote Cordo) of players agreed with the devs have confirmed that they are working changes on now so we have no idea what will be the next iterations yet

The feedback is unhelpful only to you

Here is some more

The devs intent is for the player stat squish and enemy stat squish to offset each other on elite and below - not to make dungeons harder and not to nerf players. They already explained the reason - it's needed to prepare for the level cap change coming next year. They don't now and never have balanced for reaper since day 1.

So the only things not changing are past life benefits, reaper tree benefits, reaper scaling and reaper monster stats (carnage etc). Those things are all known facts and offset each other in my experience - arguably the grind benefits are much stronger at least in my case. If they nerfed reaper tree and past lifes, but not reaper scaling you might have a valid point. At least currently there are some aspects of player power that are also not being reduced by the stat squish.

If they bow to demands and spend alot of time adjusting reaper scaling and reaper monster stats (carnage, etc.) they would also have to apply the stat squish to reaper trees and past lifes. That seems like alot of unnecessary work for things that largely offset each other for most people running R5+.

On the other hand, making some tweaks to R1-R4 might make sense to help people trying to make the transition from elite to reaper without all those grind benefits.

Hey, we don't agree and never will. No big deal. It's ultimately up to the devs but if they adjusted reaper scaling based on the #s I know today using the same percentages as the stat squish it seems like a small difference.

There are some valid things people brought up such as intimidate requirements not changing on lamannia combined with tanks losing epic skill focus intimidate in U51. That valid feedback needs to be looked at closer and is much more impactful than applying a stat squish formula to reaper scaling, reaper trees and past life benefits which are unaffected by these changes currently.


U50 v1 on Lammania only had scaling for mob saves in epic and a removal of
the T2 Legendary buff (Sharn+). HP and damage was the same. I don't know
what the final version will be but discussions on discord did not make me very
confident that the stats squish will be net neutral as is being promulgated.

The epic resilience change doesn't happen until U51 at the same time as the ED changes when most casters get a massive DC buff except for a few high DC magister builds with draconic DC twists (mostly illusion really, but possibly a few evocation and conjuration builds) which are largely obsolete as of U51.

[Oxarhamar]

don't agree and never will. No big deal.

At least you can admit that despite all the evidence that proves the opposite it was painfully obvious already

Nerf is still nerf

Multiple players tested and confirmed including myself


Snip~
If they bow to demands and spend alot of time adjusting reaper scaling and reaper monster stats (carnage, etc.) they would also have to apply the stat squish to reaper trees and past lifes. That seems like alot of unnecessary work for things that largely offset each other for most people running R5+.

More speculations you got a Dev quote confirming this ?

[Arctigis]

The epic resilience change doesn't happen until U51 at the same time as the ED changes when most casters get a massive DC buff except for a few high DC magister builds with draconic DC twists (mostly illusion really, but possibly a few evocation and conjuration builds) which are largely obsolete as of U51.

I'm not sure you've been spending much time on the Lammania discord. According to Lynnabel, epic mobs
lost -6 from their saves and will lose ANOTHER 6 when epic resilience is removed.

[slarden]

I'm not sure you've been spending much time on the Lammania discord. According to Lynnabel, epic mobs
lost -6 from their saves and will lose ANOTHER 6 when epic resilience is removed.

I am not following the discord, but getting updates from a guildy that keeps up on it. They confirmed epic resilience removal is scheduled to be removed with U51 as part of the ED pass.

The changes with U50, including the save changes, are part of the stat squishing in prep for the level cap change and are intended to offset the reduction in player stats.

The net effect of U50 is that players should be able to land spells roughly the same as they can today. I am sure there will be anomalies and issues that get worked out over time, but that is the goal they are working towards.

With U51 DCs for most casters that weren't already magister DC specialists should see a significant increase in effective DC. I detailed the U51 math earlier in the post since it's more quantifiable than the stat squish changes which are intended to be break even. I only included epic resilience since all the other save adjustments are part of the U50 stat squish and offset by changes to player stats.

[Oxarhamar]

I am not following the discord, but getting updates from a guildy that keeps up on it. They confirmed epic resilience removal is scheduled to be removed with U51 as part of the ED pass.

The changes with U50, including the save changes, are part of the stat squishing in prep for the level cap change and are intended to offset the reduction in player stats.

The net effect of U50 is that players should be able to land spells roughly the same as they can today. I am sure there will be anomalies and issues that get worked out over time, but that is the goal they are working towards.

With U51 DCs for most casters that weren't already magister DC specialists should see a significant increase in effective DC. I detailed the U51 math earlier in the post since it's more quantifiable than the stat squish changes which are intended to be break even. I only included epic resilience since all the other save adjustments are part of the U50 stat squish and offset by changes to player stats.

not even as powerful as it was between 20-28 back when the cap was 28 with full ED's active do to the recent nerf rounds

You think more nerfs & level lock out of ED will bring that to balance ?

[Arctigis]

I am not following the discord, but getting updates from a guildy that keeps up on it. They confirmed epic resilience removal is scheduled to be removed with U51 as part of the ED pass.

Yes, I know. I have been following the discord.



The changes with U50, including the save changes, are part of the stat squishing in prep for the level cap change and are intended to offset the reduction in player stats.

Yes, I know. The point that a lot of players made is that it's NOT just above saves. I haven't done
the calculations myself but others posted that the gear nerf has reduced optimized melee DPS by
20 - 25% and optimized elemental nuking by 35-40% (the reduction in spellpower, spell crit% and
spell crit damage obviously being multiplicative). The biggest impact seems to be to healing
efficiency. Unless they reduce monster stats such as HP and damage then there won't be an
equivalency with the game as it is on live now. I ran EE What Goes Up on Lammania and there
no noticeable changes to mobs (I was a L27 Barbarian with nerfed LTS Breastplate)



The net effect of U50 is that players should be able to land spells roughly the same as they can today. I am sure there will be anomalies and issues that get worked out over time, but that is the goal they are working towards.

Well, I believe optimized DC caster were down 12 DC. They should perform better in T2 legendary difficulty
but worse in epic until epic resilience is removed.



With U51 DCs for most casters that weren't already magister DC specialists should see a significant increase in effective DC. I detailed the U51 math earlier in the post since it's more quantifiable than the stat squish changes which are intended to be break even. I only included epic resilience since all the other save adjustments are part of the U50 stat squish and offset by changes to player stats.

We'll have to wait and see.

[Tlorrd]

not even as powerful as it was between 20-28 back when the cap was 28 with full ED's active do to the recent nerf rounds

You think more nerfs & level lock out of ED will bring that to balance ?

Level lockout is bad. I think the current way of EDs to give access to all tiers and cores up front is fine. I think the stat squish was probably how the stat progression should have been originally once levels were expanded past 20. Reordering and revamping epic feat access is fine. Allowing increased EDPs with each epic past life is good along with the past life feat of choice. There should be stat progression in EDs as well, whether in cores or enhancements ...maybe in the last three cores yet seen will have +2/core. The overall homogenization of stats across different parts of named items is fine, it allows greater build variety. The equipment set bonuses are the hampering part as min/maxers will be stuck using those over certain equipment.

[Arctigis]

Level lockout is bad. I think the current way of EDs to give access to all tiers and cores up front is fine. I think the stat squish was probably how the stat progression should have been originally once levels were expanded past 20. Reordering and revamping epic feat access is fine. Allowing increased EDPs with each epic past life is good along with the past life feat of choice. There should be stat progression in EDs as well, whether in cores or enhancements ...maybe in the last three cores yet seen will have +2/core. The overall homogenization of stats across different parts of named items is fine, it allows greater build variety. The equipment set bonuses are the hampering part as min/maxers will be stuck using those over certain equipment.

Well, leveling current EDs is a boring, horrible grind. Effectively 12 x 1,979,999 XP or just
under 3 full 1 - 30 runs. We must remember that one *IS* level gated whilst doing this. The
reward for getting it done is that you don't have to do it again. The U51 system requires you
to unlock everything every life. I personally didn't mind the U51 preview (assuming that the
issues with it such as the builder/spender plate spinning is revised) but we shouldn't forget
that existing EDs are not autogrant at L20.

[Oxarhamar]

Well, leveling current EDs is a boring, horrible grind. Effectively 12 x 1,979,999 XP or just
under 3 full 1 - 30 runs. We must remember that one *IS* level gated whilst doing this. The
reward for getting it done is that you don't have to do it again. The U51 system requires you
to unlock everything every life. I personally didn't mind the U51 preview (assuming that the
issues with it such as the builder/spender plate spinning is revised) but we shouldn't forget
that existing EDs are not autogrant at L20.

This is true still the power back when cap was 28 felt more correct from 20-28 with gear being the major power increase

Now thou just feels no progress until legendary gear after the nerfs we already had

I agree about Builder/Spender and having tested those they are horrible
there is no way to know what will be when they changes those until the next round.

[Tlorrd]

Well, leveling current EDs is a boring, horrible grind. Effectively 12 x 1,979,999 XP or just
under 3 full 1 - 30 runs. We must remember that one *IS* level gated whilst doing this. The
reward for getting it done is that you don't have to do it again. The U51 system requires you
to unlock everything every life. I personally didn't mind the U51 preview (assuming that the
issues with it such as the builder/spender plate spinning is revised) but we shouldn't forget
that existing EDs are not autogrant at L20.

I agree ... Epic XP curve should be severely reduced. Access to EDs should be autogrant ... Or have one time $ fee or store points to get access to all of them across all servers and characters.

[slarden]

Yes, I know. I have been following the discord.


Yes, I know. The point that a lot of players made is that it's NOT just above saves. I haven't done
the calculations myself but others posted that the gear nerf has reduced optimized melee DPS by
20 - 25% and optimized elemental nuking by 35-40% (the reduction in spellpower, spell crit% and
spell crit damage obviously being multiplicative).
For U50 what really matters is the comparison between player stat decreases and enemy stat decreases. If they could add an NPC to fill our monster manuals on Lamannia that would help alot with that comparison in the next preview.

I would be interested in seeing the math to arrive at the percentages above. My expectation would be that martial and casting dps loss would be the same in U50 and that enemy stat changes matched.

For U51 some things like DC, crit damage boost and crit damage % are known. The exact content of the arcane trees and 2 divine trees is not yet known.

[zooble]

I would be interested in seeing the math to arrive at the percentages above. My expectation would be that martial and casting dps loss would be the same in U50 and that enemy stat changes matched.

I don't know about that guy's method but I did a calculation of my own numbers along with some assumptions and ended up at around -29% for my Sorc.

I plugged in various end game numbers and it all hovers around that -29% to -33% area. It didn't matter if it was somewhat poorly geared or glass cannon min-maxing those stats, relatively to the previous dps, the dps falls similarly.

I took into account crit chance losses of down to -23% (u50 "squish", my base loss is -17%), -25% crit multi (u51 destiny changes) and equipment spellpower (u50 squish using dev value). The rest of the u50 spellpower I didn't take note of on llama i.e. insightful, quality, alchemical, implement, spellsight etc so I've assumed to add up to -73spellpower (combined equalling the same loss as equipment, with insight and quality worth roughly 3/4 of that on live it sounds reasonable and any deviations from this shouldn't affect those numbers too much).

Another thing I'm not sure about is crit multi from gear (e.g. Dryad/LGS/LGS Set/Autumn Set) since I also didn't check when llama was up. I've kept those values the same but if that is also being reduced, then increase the loss more.


Further, keep in mind this is main element dps loss, secondary element dps loss is far more due to feat/destiny crit dmg multi changing to single element.

Further again, this excludes any sort of u51 Draconic shenanigans which would result in even more loss of dps (other than what we already know about crit) compared to live.

Another note is what I mentioned elsewhere, a dps loss and crit chance loss will most likely increase the number of casts to kill trash, which can increase the effective dps loss substantially more.

HOWEVER, if DCs have a net increase, then there is a dps gain to offset some of the losses from wherever a mob was taking 50% or 100% damage reduction. Now, this is very hard to calculate since it's highly dependent on whatever your DC is, difficulty you run, and what quests you run. But essentially the more mobs are saving on live, the better off you will be (but not necessarily "better"). This alone will make it hard to compare to melee/range.

Further some more, I don't really know how viable everything will be come u51 without actually playing it. For example, will dps casters still be inclined to run Ottos/Eye for Evo DC or can they now use the spellpower filis without repercussion in high-end content with evasion mobs, clawing back some spellpower?

And finally, of course that means nothing on its own since as you say, it should match the melee/ranged percentages and match mob debuffs, which I haven't even looked at.

In any case, I'm trying to bang out some goals before u50 hits since although it could be better, or the same, it could be far worse and the devil you know is always a solid choice.

[Singular]

The epic resilience change doesn't happen until U51 at the same time as the ED changes when most casters get a massive DC buff except for a few high DC magister builds with draconic DC twists (mostly illusion really, but possibly a few evocation and conjuration builds) which are largely obsolete as of U51.

I guess players who don't read the forums will wonder why all their stats and EQ have been nerfed, then feel like everything is overpowered until update 51 comes out.

[Merrillman]

As it currently exists, Draconic gives +9 DC to your choice of Conjuration or Evocation, and +6 to the other. Under the newly announced paradigm (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/524813-U51-Early-Preview-Epic-Destiny-Revamp-Design-Paradigm), what you get is even better: You get +3 to all DC's in tier 5, +3 to all DC's from the cores, and +3 to your choice of Conjuration or Evocation from a tier 3. For a total of +9 to either Conjuration or Evocation, and +6 to every other school. This is in addition to whatever you'd get from your other ED's. In addition, they're going to be removing Epic and Legendary Resilience from mobs, which drops their saves even lower.

I’d just like to point out that... WHO CARES about a difference of 6 DC?!?!?! As a NUKING DPS, I want CRITICAL DAMAGE MULTIPLIERS. THAT, and not DC, is what kills mobs. I don't have to worry about DC or spell resistance with evocation. So what you made your reflex save! I have a 90% Crit chance and a +55 damage percentage. You’re dead even at half damage. THAT is what’s getting destroyed. DC is far less important. I don’t know why everyone going nuts over DC in the elemental damage conversation.

1-2-3 is mass hold (kills reflex save), BOGW (freeze, kills reflex save), Meteor Swarm, and Iceberg. If secondary DC is your concern then enchantment gets better.

The Q is how is it OVERALL at clearing dungeons.

[slarden]

The rest of the u50 spellpower I didn't take note of on llama i.e. insightful, quality, alchemical, implement, spellsight etc so I've assumed to add up to -73spellpower (combined equalling the same loss as equipment, with insight and quality worth roughly 3/4 of that on live it sounds reasonable and any deviations from this shouldn't affect those numbers too much).

Another thing I'm not sure about is crit multi from gear (e.g. Dryad/LGS/LGS Set/Autumn Set) since I also didn't check when llama was up. I've kept those values the same but if that is also being reduced, then increase the loss more.

Everything is being reduced in U51. LGS 5 piece goes from 36% to 16%. The new formula appears to be 1 + 1 per augment for LGS.

I did a deep dive on the impact on my warlock here: U50 Preview 2: Endgame Itemization Adjustments (ddo.com) (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/525416-U50-Preview-2-Endgame-Itemization-Adjustments?p=6447491&viewfull=1#post6447491)

What I found with U50 is that my dps is down roughly 29% and monster enemy hp are down 25% so I would expect things to be slightly harder, although it's in the ballpark. Since these #s include alot of past life grind it would be a little worse for someone without any of those.

Since R6 is my comfortable ceiling for soloing and my dps is down relative to monster changes and there is no change to reaper scaling (making reaper slightly harder on top of that), I may find R6 too hard to solo and may need to drop down to R5 or R4. That's not in line with the stat squish originally promised to be break-even, but I am also not all that worried about it. I might be able to make up for some of this with re-gearing an re-spec'ing to optimize based on the new reality. I am not looking forward to all the jeweler kits I will need to go through to re-gear.

As far as U51 the DC/DPS trade-off could end being a net win for me - too early to tell.

[kpak01]

Hey, it's true there are massive nerfs coming, but it's not like Sorc is being singled out. Everybody is getting massive nerfs.

[merlinfire1]

Looking forward to all the changes. Most people complaining aren't looking at the whole picture.

[Merrillman]

Here is the deal.

1. Spell point pools will be a LOT lower with stat crunch. That means, unless spell COSTS are adjusted down proportionally, spells are more expensive relative to their available pool.

2. Spell crit (no trees avail, so “as of now.”) percentage is down. Crit chance should not matter, if all else is equal, it’s the same chance to Crit before and after even if damage is lower. That’s not happening. That means fewer Crit hits. Unless there is something that increases Crit on monster side, that’s less damage, even if damage overall and hit points on monster side are equally nerfed. This is an ADDITIONAL NERF. Period.

3. Combine higher spell cost and fewer Crit hits and that means it is massively more expensive to get the same overall damage (even if monster HP adjusted downward) as a % of HP. In percentage terms, if it’s all equal, percentages should be unchanged.

4. Crit multipliers are going down. That means not only will you get fewer Crits at relatively higher cost per spell, you’ll need to cast FAR, FAR more spells to whittle down mobs or bosses at the same rate.

5. If adventures take longer, your XP, lives, and all tasks take longer. This means if you have an hour to play (typical for me) per day, and an hour long adventure now takes 90 minutes, I can’t actually complete it. That means EPL all take a lot longer to achieve.

I don’t understand why no one is talking about the relatively higher spell costs (again, no word on caster trees, so to be fair, this could all be restored in the end).

That’s the biggest nerf of all!!!



Reaper is supposed to be stupid hard, the most challenging content for the most well equipped and skilled players. So very likely this will just mean people are dropping down a skull level or two for a while and the very highest reapers would only be doable based on best gear *and* best skill. How's that a bad thing? Surely that's just increasing the challenge & extending the lifespan of R1-10 in epics?

Beyond that:
- Heroic players see literally no change.

- Epic players see smaller numbers, but the smaller numbers go proportionally further, the intention is that this is actually at worse net-zero in terms of player effectiveness, and I pity people who lack the imagination to see beyond 'smaller numbers'.

So what exactly is the problem? That the stupid-hard, intended to be unfair difficulty level is going to be stupid hard, and unfair?

I genuinely don't understand the objection if you are a regular Reaper player: at worst they simple made reaper mode more... well... reaper. And even then, only in epics.

[slarden]

Here is the deal.

1. Spell point pools will be a LOT lower with stat crunch. That means, unless spell COSTS are adjusted down proportionally, spells are more expensive relative to their available pool.

2. Spell crit (no trees avail, so “as of now.”) percentage is down. Crit chance should not matter, if all else is equal, it’s the same chance to Crit before and after even if damage is lower. That’s not happening. That means fewer Crit hits. Unless there is something that increases Crit on monster side, that’s less damage, even if damage overall and hit points on monster side are equally nerfed. This is an ADDITIONAL NERF. Period.

3. Combine higher spell cost and fewer Crit hits and that means it is massively more expensive to get the same overall damage (even if monster HP adjusted downward) as a % of HP. In percentage terms, if it’s all equal, percentages should be unchanged.

4. Crit multipliers are going down. That means not only will you get fewer Crits at relatively higher cost per spell, you’ll need to cast FAR, FAR more spells to whittle down mobs or bosses at the same rate.

5. If adventures take longer, your XP, lives, and all tasks take longer. This means if you have an hour to play (typical for me) per day, and an hour long adventure now takes 90 minutes, I can’t actually complete it. That means EPL all take a lot longer to achieve.

I don’t understand why no one is talking about the relatively higher spell costs (again, no word on caster trees, so to be fair, this could all be restored in the end).

That’s the biggest nerf of all!!!

I agree, the major things I noted on Lamannia were:

1) Force damage with no mitigation (MRR, save, etc.) in quests like Best Laid plans seemed like it barely dropped but my hp dropped. The damage there which always seemed high relative to other damage in the chain seems worse now.
2) My dps on my warlock dropped 29% compared to a 25% hp drop in enemy hit points so it will take more spells to take down bosses. My spell point pool is dropping sharply so I will require more spells to take down bosses with fewer spell points. This wouldn't be as much of a problem on a warlock if arcane pulse, greater creeping cold and greater ruin weren't needed in my rotation due to exceptionally weak warlock dps.

With that said spell points aren't an issue every quest and the main impact of less spell points means I will stop throwing greater ruins once I am low. Entire nations have survived worse. I will probably just end up lowering skulls on the force damage quests if they are still overtuned when released. Blown Deadline I already drop down to R4 for, but I may have to dros skulls on quests like no refunds as well.

Just like I need epic spells to complete quests on a warlock, the same is true for aoe - energy burst and arcane tempest are key to my mob rotation and magister is going away. So that is my main concern with U51 - will I still have 2 viable aoe from epic destinies so make up for weak warlock dps?

[Arctigis]

Here is the deal.

1. Spell point pools will be a LOT lower with stat crunch. That means, unless spell COSTS are adjusted down proportionally, spells are more expensive relative to their available pool.

2. Spell crit (no trees avail, so “as of now.”) percentage is down. Crit chance should not matter, if all else is equal, it’s the same chance to Crit before and after even if damage is lower. That’s not happening. That means fewer Crit hits. Unless there is something that increases Crit on monster side, that’s less damage, even if damage overall and hit points on monster side are equally nerfed. This is an ADDITIONAL NERF. Period.

3. Combine higher spell cost and fewer Crit hits and that means it is massively more expensive to get the same overall damage (even if monster HP adjusted downward) as a % of HP. In percentage terms, if it’s all equal, percentages should be unchanged.

4. Crit multipliers are going down. That means not only will you get fewer Crits at relatively higher cost per spell, you’ll need to cast FAR, FAR more spells to whittle down mobs or bosses at the same rate.

5. If adventures take longer, your XP, lives, and all tasks take longer. This means if you have an hour to play (typical for me) per day, and an hour long adventure now takes 90 minutes, I can’t actually complete it. That means EPL all take a lot longer to achieve.

I don’t understand why no one is talking about the relatively higher spell costs (again, no word on caster trees, so to be fair, this could all be restored in the end).

That’s the biggest nerf of all!!!

Well, they're cutting power creep. Unless you're talking about the new filigree sets which go
on sale tomorrow.

[blarhblarhblarh]

Not only the sorcerer is being nerfed but the party role as a whole.

Why play a nuker glass cannon if:
an alchemist have evasion and can heal everyone? with a higher burst damage.
an melee deals more damage and have more AC, PRR and Heal Amp?
an wiz can insta kill, nuke, self heal and tank? why bother with spellpower if you can instakill worring only about DC?
an spellsinger can cast spells non stop while you have a huge delay in spells?
an favored soul got a close DPS and can still heal full raids?

Only because we are D&D players and fireball is the most famous spell of the game. Love and will play it even if it´s sub par but we play DDO and not a generic neverwinter nights that have only 5 spells and all the classes feel the same. If all the classes deal the same damage we will go for the one that heal the group or survival more, if the glass cannon don´t have the higher damage why play it? or why make the party roles not dndish? still D&D online or I am missing something?

[mr420247]

Warlocks are already dead in the water been that way for awhile so there only going to get worse

Cleric druid casters not many left at all sorcs either just too many nerfs

And just rerolled a alchemist bot and spell points and hp is def an issue on some quests like epic ghs those reds just have way too much hp

Did 1 etr on it almost capd and geared it and dcs were almost decent in evoc n conj thats probably dead in the water now too and thats with

an updated gear set reaper hat and sw artifact setup 3 esoteric, 4 ice, 2 autumn, 1 lgs, and when 50 hits dump con aug it and profanity and a touch of power set

That gets you 100 spell power back from the 200 we lost will test more after i re cap

Sorcs and arch mage trees are completely outdated un fun who wants to play with trees with useless slas come on they need a pass and sorc still doesn't even have a decent iconic

[bryanmeerkat]

The results are yet to be seen even if enemies are adjusted downwards which has been said about lower level epics what of the higher levels if they stay the same it’s still a nerf

Even if the enemies are adjusting down in a balanced way with players power it will still feel like a nerf just on the face with lower numbers

All yourn maths are purely speculative at this point in time


It's 100 per cent the high end level legendaryepics that are being nerfed .

Stuff that has historically been level 32 but clearly level 40 difficulty will be needed down to 32

[mr420247]

Arcanes so need a half decent spell pass like lets compare

Alch gets Heal and Harm like *** when an Alch gets a Harm but a PM cannot i have to wonder

Gold skin not bad Arcanes get a useless outdated stoneskin that what won't stop 1 hit ok

50 percent run speed so op compared to useless haste that will not stack with anything ok

And tons more

[Oxarhamar]

It's 100 per cent the high end level legendaryepics that are being nerfed .

Stuff that has historically been level 32 but clearly level 40 difficulty will be needed down to 32

That’s not how the notes read

But the notes also don’t read the way monster power had been discussed before either


Before it was said monster power in epics would be rebalanced but only thing in epics to change was saves

So to monster power and HP bloat in epics will persist while EDs get the level gate nerf


And to exactly to my point it was speculation till we seen what was released


Stat squishy may balance the top end but ED level gate will bring the Epics from 20-29 out of balance

[Oxarhamar]

Everything is being reduced in U51. LGS 5 piece goes from 36% to 16%. The new formula appears to be 1 + 1 per augment for LGS.

I did a deep dive on the impact on my warlock here: U50 Preview 2: Endgame Itemization Adjustments (ddo.com) (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/525416-U50-Preview-2-Endgame-Itemization-Adjustments?p=6447491&viewfull=1#post6447491)

What I found with U50 is that my dps is down roughly 29% and monster enemy hp are down 25% so I would expect things to be slightly harder, although it's in the ballpark. Since these #s include alot of past life grind it would be a little worse for someone without any of those.

Since R6 is my comfortable ceiling for soloing and my dps is down relative to monster changes and there is no change to reaper scaling (making reaper slightly harder on top of that), I may find R6 too hard to solo and may need to drop down to R5 or R4. That's not in line with the stat squish originally promised to be break-even, but I am also not all that worried about it. I might be able to make up for some of this with re-gearing an re-spec'ing to optimize based on the new reality. I am not looking forward to all the jeweler kits I will need to go through to re-gear.

As far as U51 the DC/DPS trade-off could end being a net win for me - too early to tell.

Finally admitted that it’s too early to tell

It’s one thing to balance endgame but it’s the epic levels that will be more effected than the end game when ED become level gate the epic mobs need to be balanced to the new reality that EDs doesn’t come at full power at 20 now

This was exactly what the concern was rebalancing the end is one thing but removed power from players in the middle and not rebalancing the middle is a problem

[Zretch]

With that said spell points aren't an issue every quest and the main impact of less spell points means I will stop throwing greater ruins once I am low. Entire nations have survived worse. I will probably just end up lowering skulls on the force damage quests if they are still overtuned when released. Blown Deadline I already drop down to R4 for, but I may have to dros skulls on quests like no refunds as well.

Just like I need epic spells to complete quests on a warlock, the same is true for aoe - energy burst and arcane tempest are key to my mob rotation and magister is going away. So that is my main concern with U51 - will I still have 2 viable aoe from epic destinies so make up for weak warlock dps?

Or just stop fighting it and stop nuking. Insta-kills don't care what your spellpower is, your spell crit is, your spell crit damage is, and it's the same mana cost to kill 1 mob on normal difficulty as it is on R10. Let the melee and ranged deal with the death warded / red named mobs. From what I've seen of the changes made to casters in the last few years, the people responsible for caster balance seem to be swinging blindly. I don't really think update 51 is going to be that big a nerf, the vast majority of caster power comes from gear and update 50 pretty much nuked spell-power far more than could ever be gotten from destiny trees.

The way reaper is structured, you can't make an effective R10 nuker without being a literal god in R1. You can't solve that without reducing spell costs as you reduce damage output.

[slarden]

Finally admitted that it’s too early to tell

It’s one thing to balance endgame but it’s the epic levels that will be more effected than the end game when ED become level gate the epic mobs need to be balanced to the new reality that EDs doesn’t come at full power at 20 now

This was exactly what the concern was rebalancing the end is one thing but removed power from players in the middle and not rebalancing the middle is a problem

You are once again resorting to misleading commentary. I am saying the same thing I've always said which is that the DC changes are known and announced and a huge win for DPS casters combined with other announcements on saves. The DPS is unknown because those trees weren't yet previewed so we only know about the feat changes and a few details. So for the complete picture it's too early to tell and always has been.

The devs intention is to make the curve more smooth.

[Oxarhamar]

You are once again resorting to misleading commentary. I am saying the same thing I've always said which is that the DC changes are known and announced and a huge win for DPS casters combined with other announcements on saves. The DPS is unknown because those trees weren't yet previewed so we only know about the feat changes and a few details. So for the complete picture it's too early to tell and always has been.

The devs intention is to make the curve more smooth.

The picture is yet unknown there are other factors that haven’t been revealed

Nothing misleading about that’s what I said from the start you didn’t have the complete picture

[slarden]

Or just stop fighting it and stop nuking. Insta-kills don't care what your spellpower is, your spell crit is, your spell crit damage is, and it's the same mana cost to kill 1 mob on normal difficulty as it is on R10. Let the melee and ranged deal with the death warded / red named mobs. From what I've seen of the changes made to casters in the last few years, the people responsible for caster balance seem to be swinging blindly. I don't really think update 51 is going to be that big a nerf, the vast majority of caster power comes from gear and update 50 pretty much nuked spell-power far more than could ever be gotten from destiny trees.

The way reaper is structured, you can't make an effective R10 nuker without being a literal god in R1. You can't solve that without reducing spell costs as you reduce damage output.

My play is about 1/3 soloing R4-R6, 1/3 short-manning R8-R10, 1/3 raiding (mix of casual LH and reaper raiding with some push raiding but not at the level other servers are doing it).

I really like arcane tempest from magister and that destiny is going away entirely. I twist in energy burst and it's unknown where that will be in the new tree system. For aoe damage I rely on that one-two punch on mobs and it's unknown whether I will have 2 solid AOE epic destiny spells moving forward. Wail of the Banshee has a long cooldown. Mass frog only works on limited mobs and is going away (and ironically working on things that wail doesn't work on - constructs and undead).

I still like having multiple ways to deal with mobs and even in R10s the damage is impactful even if martial biulds are doing most of the heavy lifting - it's especially helpful when short-manning with only one dps character. Our 3-man r10 group is a tank, dc caster and one ranged dps (so they can cross-heal without the restrictions of epic defensive fighting). Getting some dps is helpful and sometimes the martial dps character dies but we still need to deal with the mobs.

The difference between dc casting and dps is that dc casting is pass-fail and that test effectively is different as you move up skulls. So the important thing is to find spells that works against all the mobs and knowing what their high saves are. As long as a player has this knowledge and a decent spell selection DC casting scales well up skulls. As you say DPS of all type scales - caster and martial- but casters have the additional constraint of spell points to consider.

What make U51 intriguing to me is that with DC being handed out for free - you can build a nuker that scales well to higher skulls as long as they know how to use the rest of their spellbook. In addition, arcane warriors look viable and even if martial dps of an arcane warrior lags behind a pure martial character - the bar for beating casting single-target dps is very low.

What I care about most is the impact on soloing and short-manning and that will largely be impacted by the content of the trees and epic destiny spells I get with U51 compared to now. We've only seen a few trees and there wasn't much casting dps in those trees. I need something equal to arcane tempest + energy burst which I have now.


The picture is yet unknown there are other factors that haven’t been revealed

Nothing misleading about that’s what I said from the start you didn’t have the complete picture

You absolutely did say something untrue - you said exactly "Finally admitted that it's too early to tell" as if I ever said anything different. I've made observations about things that are known/previewed with U51 but never claimed I knew the full picture. It's always been an early preview and too early to draw any sort of full conclusion.

[Oxarhamar]

My play is about 1/3 soloing R4-R6, 1/3 short-manning R8-R10, 1/3 raiding (mix of casual LH and reaper raiding with some push raiding but not at the level other servers are doing it).

I really like arcane tempest from magister and that destiny is going away entirely. I twist in energy burst and it's unknown where that will be in the new tree system. For aoe damage I rely on that one-two punch on mobs and it's unknown whether I will have 2 solid AOE epic destiny spells moving forward. Wail of the Banshee has a long cooldown. Mass frog only works on limited mobs and is going away (and ironically working on things that wail doesn't work on - constructs and undead).

I still like having multiple ways to deal with mobs and even in R10s the damage is impactful even if martial biulds are doing most of the heavy lifting - it's especially helpful when short-manning with only one dps character. Our 3-man r10 group is a tank, dc caster and one ranged dps (so they can cross-heal without the restrictions of epic defensive fighting). Getting some dps is helpful and sometimes the martial dps character dies but we still need to deal with the mobs.

The difference between dc casting and dps is that dc casting is pass-fail and that test effectively is different as you move up skulls. So the important thing is to find spells that works against all the mobs and knowing what their high saves are. As long as a player has this knowledge and a decent spell selection DC casting scales well up skulls. As you say DPS of all type scales - caster and martial- but casters have the additional constraint of spell points to consider.

What make U51 intriguing to me is that with DC being handed out for free - you can build a nuker that scales well to higher skulls as long as they know how to use the rest of their spellbook. In addition, arcane warriors look viable and even if martial dps of an arcane warrior lags behind a pure martial character - the bar for beating casting single-target dps is very low.

What I care about most is the impact on soloing and short-manning and that will largely be impacted by the content of the trees and epic destiny spells I get with U51 compared to now. We've only seen a few trees and there wasn't much casting dps in those trees. I need something equal to arcane tempest + energy burst which I have now.



You absolutely did say something untrue - you said exactly "Finally admitted that it's too early to tell" as if I ever said anything different. I've made observations about things that are known/previewed with U51 but never claimed I knew the full picture. It's always been an early preview and too early to draw any sort of full conclusion.

& you have finally admitted that much

[QUOTE=Oxarhamar;6442838]The results are yet to be seen even if enemies are adjusted downwards which has been said about lower level epics what of the higher levels if they stay the same it’s still a nerf

Even if the enemies are adjusting down in a balanced way with players power it will still feel like a nerf just on the face with lower numbers

All yourn maths are purely speculative at this point in time[/QUOTE

With the notes now it’s looking like only high epics are being adjusted & when the ED level lockout comes that with throw off Balance all the in between levels

[Zretch]

pic destiny spells I get with U51 compared to now. We've only seen a few trees and there wasn't much casting dps in those trees. I need something equal to arcane tempest + energy burst which I have now.

And I think that having nukers of all classes relying on the same epic destiny skills for their damage is very poor design. You're so concerned about those two AoEs because you are playing a nuking class that has had its DPS nerfed into the ground. Balance nuking casters into epics, don't just hand everyone 2 long cooldown nukes and call it a day. But as I stated before, I don't think there's a good vision of how to balance spell DPS in this game at this time.