Now that Sorcs are no where to be found, since no one play them anymore...

[Miahoo]

...Can we have our Meteor cooldown back?
Pwietty pwease? UwU

[droid327]

People still play sorcs

Just because EVERYone doesn't play them anymore does not mean NO one does. Right now the meta is a lot closer to balanced than it has been in a while...there's a lot of diversity among the current "best" tier.

And so no, you can't have your one button win button back :P. You're just gonna have to build a rotation and manage it like the rest of us.

[cadaverash]

Yeah, I TR'ed into a warlock after that nerf.

For the record, I was an acid sorc.

I don't regret leaving the sorc life behind, but I miss the DPS it had.

:(

[nobodynobody1426]

Post 20 Fire Sorc still best caster DPS by a very large margin, Meteor Swarm is just that good. The difference between now and then is that others are in the same league though still far behind. I mean everyone else's best AoE spell is approximately Delayed Blast Fireball tier.

[Miahoo]

People still play sorcs

Just because EVERYone doesn't play them anymore does not mean NO one does. Right now the meta is a lot closer to balanced than it has been in a while...there's a lot of diversity among the current "best" tier.

And so no, you can't have your one button win button back :P. You're just gonna have to build a rotation and manage it like the rest of us.

bruh...
the sorcs I encounter in the last month were either new players or people who got stuck with sorc life. both of them didn't understand what they're doing wrong with the 'easy button op class'.

still viable? maybe... but why go sorc when u can go fvs, have x2 hp and resists, self heal and more dps (with way less mana consume)?


Post 20 Fire Sorc still best caster DPS by a very large margin, Meteor Swarm is just that good. The difference between now and then is that others are in the same league though still far behind. I mean everyone else's best AoE spell is approximately Delayed Blast Fireball tier.

even if.... so you're taking away the ONE spell the class is good with ?
I see nothing wrong with a gimpy heavy mana reliable with barely any defenses class to have one good spell which make it different from other classes.

[Gniewomir]

Yeah, I TR'ed into a warlock after that nerf.

For the record, I was an acid sorc.

I don't regret leaving the sorc life behind, but I miss the DPS it had.

:(

Let me make sure that i understood you correctly, you TRed from (even nerfed one) sorc to warlock for more dps? xD

[Steeme]

Is this only an issue on high skulls?

I got my Sorc (Fire nuker) back up to cap on the weekend and played for a bit at cap (Sharn Part 3 sans Soul Survivor and Ravenloft saga).

Solo with Bard and Pally boxed accounts giving me buffs, target was R4.

At level 29, with my old gear setup (flamecleansed + other non-raid pieces), it was a little too risky for my taste. However I when I reached 30 I completely re-geared into a 6-piece Autumn / 4-piece Winter which was a significant improvement.

Contrary to the popular push-button Sorc, I take Master of Fire, Scion of Air, Greater Color Spray, and run in Magister. This makes a wider variety of spells "useful", which makes more buttons "available" during meteor's cooldown.

Fully adapting to the spell rotation, I noticed that I'm using CC more reliably and I'm paying more attention to which alternative spells work on specific mobs.

Pre-nerf, maybe you drop some CC (BoGW, Color Spray, Mass Hold), maybe not, but then just mow everything down with MS and DBF... or just MS.

Post-nerf, analyze mob composition, use Color Spray and/or BoGW (or both), launch Meteor, then decide whether to go into a damage cycle or alternate cycle:
-> Damage cycle - Meteor -> DBF -> Fireball SLA -> Fireball -> DBF -> Meteor -> DBF -> Scorch SLA? -> Fireball? -> DBF -> Meteor
-> Alternate cycle - Prismatic Spray?, PK or FoD on specific mobs?, Undeath to Death?, refresh Color Spray and/or BoGW?

That's my personal experience. The balance changes feel Ok outside of raids and soloing R4. If the issues are specific to higher skulls that should be noted - I don't feel like Sorc needs to be buffed at lower difficulties.

[Kebtid]

DC caster sorc.

[OfElectricMen]

Guess I imagined the 3 Sorcs in the group I was in yesterday.


bruh...
but why go sorc when u can go fvs,
Because you need a Sorc past life?
Because you like playing Sorcerers?

[nobodynobody1426]

bruh...
the sorcs I encounter in the last month were either new players or people who got stuck with sorc life. both of them didn't understand what they're doing wrong with the 'easy button op class'.

still viable? maybe... but why go sorc when u can go fvs, have x2 hp and resists, self heal and more dps (with way less mana consume)?



even if.... so you're taking away the ONE spell the class is good with ?
I see nothing wrong with a gimpy heavy mana reliable with barely any defenses class to have one good spell which make it different from other classes.

Wuh.... so much wrong with those statements.

For heroics Air Sorc still crush's everything flat without worrying about immunity bypass. 20+ Fire Sorc crush's everything else flat because the one thing holding it back ceases to exist then. Meteor Swarm + Delayed Blast Fireball will wipe out every group of monsters from level 20 to level 30. And I know you haven't played FVS because it has the same 6s recast on Firestorm, which does less the Meteor Swarm, doesn't have immunity bypass and has targeting issues if you don't carefully plan your approach. And where did you get the "way less mana consume" from? Both classes pull their primary damage spells from spell lists and not SLA's.

I'm thinking your confusing Cleric and FVS casters, Clerics in Fire Domain can get very cheap nukes on a longer timer, but the DD tree suffers from several other issues that make it terrible after 20.

[nobodynobody1426]

Guess I imagined the 3 Sorcs in the group I was in yesterday.


Because you need a Sorc past life?
Because you like playing Sorcerers?

Sorc has better overall damage, FVS and Cleric have better utility, Cleric can be good in heroics depending on domain.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

since no one play them anymore...

Wrong.

I'm still playing a Sorc, and having fun with that. My Sorc is part of an very successful alts group within "my" guild. Still a bit slow and squishy because first-lifer, but otherwise still fun. We recently did Necro4. (Level : 16 by now.)

I was never part of a crowd who did characters based on powah - and that's why I remain. :)

[Miahoo]

Guess I imagined the 3 Sorcs in the group I was in yesterday.


Because you need a Sorc past life?
Because you like playing Sorcerers?

already got all 3.
I do like my sorc. and it seems so off rn. anything wrong with it?

[Miahoo]

(Level : 16 by now.)


thats not the point of the op. nor the level i was referring to.

[droid327]

anything wrong with it?

No, just probably with your expectations.

You're just suffering from OP hangover....happens to every class that's over tuned :)

Inqui had to detox after their big endgame nerf but they're happily doing their thing now.

[Miahoo]

Is this only an issue on high skulls?

I got my Sorc (Fire nuker) back up to cap on the weekend and played for a bit at cap (Sharn Part 3 sans Soul Survivor and Ravenloft saga).

Solo with Bard and Pally boxed accounts giving me buffs, target was R4.

At level 29, with my old gear setup (flamecleansed + other non-raid pieces), it was a little too risky for my taste. However I when I reached 30 I completely re-geared into a 6-piece Autumn / 4-piece Winter which was a significant improvement.

Contrary to the popular push-button Sorc, I take Master of Fire, Scion of Air, Greater Color Spray, and run in Magister. This makes a wider variety of spells "useful", which makes more buttons "available" during meteor's cooldown.

Fully adapting to the spell rotation, I noticed that I'm using CC more reliably and I'm paying more attention to which alternative spells work on specific mobs.

Pre-nerf, maybe you drop some CC (BoGW, Color Spray, Mass Hold), maybe not, but then just mow everything down with MS and DBF... or just MS.

Post-nerf, analyze mob composition, use Color Spray and/or BoGW (or both), launch Meteor, then decide whether to go into a damage cycle or alternate cycle:
-> Damage cycle - Meteor -> DBF -> Fireball SLA -> Fireball -> DBF -> Meteor -> DBF -> Scorch SLA? -> Fireball? -> DBF -> Meteor
-> Alternate cycle - Prismatic Spray?, PK or FoD on specific mobs?, Undeath to Death?, refresh Color Spray and/or BoGW?

That's my personal experience. The balance changes feel Ok outside of raids and soloing R4. If the issues are specific to higher skulls that should be noted - I don't feel like Sorc needs to be buffed at lower difficulties.

Finally a worthy post!
let me get into details. but first, tldr: its about raids, high reaper end game and evasion mobs.

I did manage to get kinda equally dps to the pre-nerfs - but it took x2 mana to get so, with throwing different types of cc, fireballs and other stuff in between the cooldowns.

but lets start over - ofc i'm talking high skull end game (and not heroic, i mean, you only get your meteor at the end there and i'm pretty sure u use the SLAs, which in epics the mobs hp is too high and the SLAs are too weak and has too much of a cooldown to rely on).

so heroic is not what i'm referring with the op (and it seems you're the only one who passed the common-sense DC of this thread).

now let's compare sorcs to other classes:
- CC: wiz and bards will ALWAYS be better than a sorc. can you build a cc-dc sorc? ofc... have fun doing so. but efficiency will always be on the wiz side.
- Survivability: you get NOTHING that other classes cannot have or use a clicky/scroll. no, that displacement is long ago not that special, and lots of high end mobs just bypass it. Actually, sorc is the class with the least survivability currently on... even with a shield and heavy armor, every other class be 1 step ahead of you.
- DPS: sorcs burst DPS is amazing... or at least was. evasion mobs are pain, and getting your dc high enough, in some quests, is impossible. This is why Meteor was a key spell, not only for fire sorcs, as the bludgeon damage has no save on it.

Can you go around it? yeah... with x3 of the mana.

as I already said, I dont see sorcs as op as everyone think. only people who roll bad toons will say that. and the early heroic levels has nothing to do with the meteor anyway.

the end game of a sorc is pretty bad rn, i dont see why the meteor nerf was necessary - people just happy those buffon sorcs who blast the screen away in their heroic runs got nerfed, without even thinking what the nerf even impact.

[Miahoo]

No, just probably with your expectations.

You're just suffering from OP hangover....happens to every class that's over tuned :)

Inqui had to detox after their big endgame nerf but they're happily doing their thing now.

read the thread above. sorcs are not op (or at least anything with the meteor involved).

no , i'm not talking about heroic catacombs or heroic necro1-2-3-4, or heroic anything.
sorcs get meteor at level 18, not 4.

[cadaverash]

Let me make sure that i understood you correctly, you TRed from (even nerfed one) sorc to warlock for more dps? xD

Yeah, you don't understand that correctly.

I never said I TR'ed into a worlock for more DPS.

I said I TR'ed into a warlock after the nerf.

Reread the original post and let me know if you understand it, I can repeat if you need me to.

Cheers.

[Valerianus]

please i'm playing sorc right now, just let the nerf crowd think they won against a non-existant imaginary foe

[Alizar]

Yeah, you don't understand that correctly.

I never said I TR'ed into a worlock for more DPS.

I said I TR'ed into a warlock after the nerf.

Reread the original post and let me know if you understand it, I can repeat if you need me to.

Cheers.

Warlocks are so lame... I trd out of water sorc due to being too op. Its all about iceberg and thundrstroke. Maximize that baby for the best boss beater in the game. Fire sorc is lame too glad it was nerfed. Too many meteors being spammed on my head.

[adamkatt]

Warlocks are so lame... I trd out of water sorc due to being too op. Its all about iceberg and thundrstroke. Maximize that baby for the best boss beater in the game. Fire sorc is lame too glad it was nerfed. Too many meteors being spammed on my head.

Why are warlock so lame?

[Alizar]

Why are warlock so lame?

What can they do??? Instakill and CC?? Thats about it.... DPS is king. Everyone can CC...

[Justicesfury]

...Can we have our Meteor cooldown back?
Pwietty pwease? UwU

Play a cleric or FVS. Try it for week you won't miss your sorc. You get piles of hp and more damage. Better ac and prr and mrr.

The devs have no clue, take advantage of it.

[Alizar]

Play a cleric or FVS. Try it for week you won't miss your sorc. You get piles of hp and more damage. Better ac and prr and mrr.

The devs have no clue, take advantage of it.

Umm no not even close to same boss dps..who cares about trash. Also, I should add that end game fvs and cleric fall behind even with trash clearing.

[blarhblarhblarh]

First:

Sorcerer never was a 1 win button. It´s a nuker and should have damage of a nuker. Will die in any trap, will die with 2 or 3 hits, can´t self heal, don´t have evasion but should be the non stop caster and it´s not.

They took the fun out of the sorcerer when they raised the cooldown. The spell rotation is not a problem, the HUGE cooldown is. These days a spellsinger cast as a sorcerer used to cast and this is not the way D&D intended. Sorcerer is suposed to cast faster than anything. SSG told people that they wouldn´t touch the cooldown and THEY DID. Not a single apologies. They just lied and it makes harder to trust in them. As the belt: they took it out and just released a new staff to give some spellpower back but seens like they forgot we had paid for the burnscar sarsh when we bought ravenloft.

But ok, for the topic: Just go to DDO audit: Sorcerer was one of the classes less played even BEFORE the nerf. Now with the nerf sorc still a sorcerer in heroics, or in r1 endgame. Raise the reaper and the sorcerer is gone even filled with raid items and green steel. A barbarian easily can do 4x more damage than a sorcerer and IT`S NOT A NUKER.

So SSG´s staff should pay attention to party roles and respect it. It´s dungeons and dragons online, not gurps online, shadowrun online. Use the base material when you guys have doubts, simple as that.

[Azoyhn]

What can they do??? Instakill and CC?? Thats about it.... DPS is king. Everyone can CC...
Excuse you. I play a very fancy warlock, it has all the weapon debuffs in the game from dust, ooze, ash to even affirmation. I can dual wield debuffs of ooze and ash, use Consume and get the Taint the Aura debuffs. That's a -35 + -10 + -10 for a total of -55 prr debuff, that's critically huge in end game raiding. That's quite the stuff going on. Best debuffers, good cc users, some dps. My icelock is doing 300 per blast (these are Reaper 10 numbers). about 200 ice and 100 force on a good day, with ash and ooze it's even higher!

Cheers,
Azo

[slarden]

The problem with these discussions is there are 3 very different games

- Leveling
- End game reaper questing
- End game Raiding

The loudest voices are always the people focused on leveling that think this class or that class should be nerfed based on perceived over-performance in R1 leveling (despite people running several skulls below where there character power would put them). Many many builds do fine leveling and with enough past lifes and reaper points you can literally make any class shine.

At least from my experience a wide variety of builds, including casters, can contribute to successful high end-game reaper runs. Sorcs are fine. Warlocks are fine. Wizards are fine. My small 3 person static group 3-mans high reapers with old school approach - one tank, one caster with cc/aoe and one martial dps build.

Raiding is very different. 8-9 of the roles are dps and solid dps is limited to melee builds and some ranged builds and the focus is primarily single-target dps. Several raids have punishing mechanics if you don't have good enough dps (aka dps test). Casters are subpar to fill a dps role and it really doesn't matter what casting class you are talking about as the best casters are subpar dps for raids. Alchemists and sorcs could fill that role pre-nerf but still didn't match top-tier martial dps builds. Casters are highly under-represented in raids other than having one for salted aoe, dancing spheres or instakill. Raiding is where I see a major lack of roles for casters since casters can't fill the dps spots adequately.

[adamkatt]

What can they do??? Instakill and CC?? Thats about it.... DPS is king. Everyone can CC...

You seem to have forgotten they can tank and/or fire from range and help the team with temp hp(if they stay close).. your view of a warlork seems very narrow minded.

[AbyssalMage]

Play a cleric or FVS. Try it for week you won't miss your sorc. You get piles of hp and more damage. Better ac and prr and mrr.

The devs have no clue, take advantage of it.
They have a clue. Go back and look at the forums prior to the nerf. It was evident that the developers were literally pushing players to FvS and players were trying to understand why. There was no response from the developers. If you are a Sorc, play Ice for the CC and single target DPS and run in groups/raids. Fire Sorc is for people unwilling to let go of the past.

The new caster META is FvS for at least for another update. My personal theory is it will get nerfed probably around the time they need to sell Horizon Walker. They are going to claim it is "Over Performing" and they have been oblivious about it. You know because they "accidentally" skipped the conversations about why they were buffing FvS while kneecapping Sorc.

Anyways, I agree with you. FvS is the only caster you really want in your group ATM. Otherwise you are better off with THF melee abusing Strike Through. Man SSG has destroyed this game in the last 12 months :(

Hope they have their resume's updated and no one has a new mortgage.

[AbyssalMage]

You seem to have forgotten they can tank and/or fire from range and help the team with temp hp(if they stay close).. your view of a warlork seems very narrow minded.
They can Tank about as well as a Bard. Bard is better DPS while "Tanking."

Temp HP is wasted with NPC damage output. Good for lower difficulty stuff though.

Range DPS. Meh, I guess it is still ok. Same DPS penalty as all the ranged builds now so... I'll give you that one.

Nope, not narrow. Just a class that was nuked from orbit because forumites hate everything they don't play. It went from an above average class that people liked at end game to pretty worthless at end game except to take the spot of the wizard. Honestly a Wizard and Warlock are almost interchangeable. I give the Wizard a slight advantage...slight.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The problem with these discussions is there are 3 very different games

- Leveling
- End game reaper questing
- End game Raiding

The loudest voices are always the people focused on leveling that think this class or that class should be nerfed based on perceived over-performance in R1 leveling (despite people running several skulls below where there character power would put them).

Personally, I don't believe so.
As I see it, the loudest voices are always end game folks, but they alsways assume that everyone els is - like them - talking about end game, which is why they don't even bother to make it clear that they exclusively mean end game.

Thus, they merely sound as if they were levelling, but in fact they are in Epic and Legendary end game levels (everything from level 21 on is "end game" in my definition).

They don't even care if everything which is not end game gets nerfed or nuked, because they don't touch that territory anymore. They are a bit like people who live in the proverbial ivory tower.


Warlocks are so lame...

Warlock is in the lowest levels so VASTLY OVERPOWERED that it isn't fun anymore to play them.

But, nobody bothers to see that, because everyone is playing end game. Start game doesn't matter to the loudest folks at all.

[Malleable]

...Can we have our Meteor cooldown back?
Pwietty pwease? UwU

Who says no-one is playing sorc? My main is still a fire Sorc and although meteor swarm is not as powerful as it was previously, it still does pretty decent damage. There is also more to Sorc than meteor swarm!

[Kebtid]

DC caster sorc.

DC caster sorc.

(find it sad i need to quote myself on the most obvious answer)

[Gniewomir]

Yeah, you don't understand that correctly.

I never said I TR'ed into a worlock for more DPS.

I said I TR'ed into a warlock after the nerf.

Reread the original post and let me know if you understand it, I can repeat if you need me to.

Cheers.

I'm afraid no matter how many times you'll repeat it, it doesnt make sense.

Firstly, sorc after nerf is still strong. On ee/r1 my 1st life sorc alt still one shot everything with meteor swarm. If you expect to 1 shot everything on r10 then indeed you might "miss the dps", but then im not sure if any class in ddo will suit you.

Secondly, if you miss dps so much, TRing into warlock makes no sense at all, cause it's (imo, but also in opinion on many other players) one of worst dps classes. Either you care about good dps or not, if not - then tring from sorc makes no sense, cause everything else lock does sorc can do too (cc/insta).

Thirdly, if in one post you talk about:
a) nerfing sorc
b) missing sorc dps cause it got nerfed
c) tring from sorc to lock
people might (now huge suprise) assume there's a connection between stuff you're saying. Usually people don't talk like: "oh, i have to peel potatoes for dinner cause my garage needs additional layer of paint".

[TedSandyman]

Again with this. These exact same threads over and over again.

High kill class gets reeled in. Some people hate it. Some people like it. Someone ALWAYS says "Not worth playing anymore" or "No one plays it now".

The truth is, every time I have seen a nerf over the past 10 years it is the same old arguments and this question pops up again.

Is the class worth playing?

It really depends on your approach to this game.

Both sides are correct because both sides are playing the class for different reasons.

If all you care about is having the highest DPS and killing the most, then you don't really care that much about the class itself and are only using it because it offers the correct combination of attributes to get a DPS that outstrips most of the other classes.

These people will feel the nerf made the class unplayable because they do not want to play a class that isn't THE TOP class.

If you really enjoy the class and how it works. If you enjoy the dynamics and options and play style it affords, then you will feel the class is still very viable. You will work around the nerf and realize that the class is still fun and fun is what you are after.

I have seen this to be true on every single class nerf.

Some people are going to reject the changes and quit the class. Some people are going to accept the changes and look to see how to work around it and make it work for them.

The post-nerf class is still viable, still playable, still fun. If you want to play it, you should and you will be very happy.

The post-nerf class isn't the most powerful anymore. If that is what you want, you should move on. Something else is most powerful now. Find it.

But all this arguing between the two isn't really going to change anything.

Both sides have valid points. Every one of you have valid points. You are both right, but that doesn't necessarily mean the other side is wrong.

[PurpleSerpent]

I'm afraid no matter how many times you'll repeat it, it doesnt make sense.

Firstly, sorc after nerf is still strong. On ee/r1 my 1st life sorc alt still one shot everything with meteor swarm. If you expect to 1 shot everything on r10 then indeed you might "miss the dps", but then im not sure if any class in ddo will suit you.

Secondly, if you miss dps so much, TRing into warlock makes no sense at all, cause it's (imo, but also in opinion on many other players) one of worst dps classes. Either you care about good dps or not, if not - then tring from sorc makes no sense, cause everything else lock does sorc can do too (cc/insta).

Thirdly, if in one post you talk about:
a) nerfing sorc
b) missing sorc dps cause it got nerfed
c) tring from sorc to lock
people might (now huge suprise) assume there's a connection between stuff you're saying. Usually people don't talk like: "oh, i have to peel potatoes for dinner cause my garage needs additional layer of paint".

Let me lay it out differently. What the post you're talking about said comes down to this:

* After sorcerer was nerfed, Cadaverash TRed into a warlock.

* Now that they have done so, they slightly miss the DPS they had as a sorcerer.

What they are not saying is that they TRed into Warlock to get DPS, or because Sorcerer lost its DPS. From the sound of it, they TRed into warlock because they weren't enjoying sorcerer much.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

P.S. And no, Sorcerer can't do everything a Warlock can better. Warlocks can be exceptionally powerful, they're just somewhat harder to build correctly.

[Oliphant]

I have not had more class focused fun since they nerfed sorcs. Of all classes, the free, OG sorc must not made into some garbage and my attitude is I refuse to accept that and I'm going to see for myself. Them supposedly nerfing sorcs was a call to pick sorc up again and I'm finally enjoying my last sorc life (last sorc PL actually). After a decent season of doing racial PLs I've recently played sorc through to end game and parked there doing raids and figuring out build approaches.

The idea of building a high reaper endgame dps sorc is counter intuitive to me. I guess the hidden implication is you need cc to protect yourself when you fail to one shot everything and catch aggro. My natural inclination is to max out Enchant, Necro and Illusion and to the extent feasible Evocation, then max out hp. Once you get over a certain DC hurdle, a functioning DC sorc is about on par with a DC wiz, just different trade offs (e.g. more spells vs faster cool downs, efficiency vs spell points). I like to be air sorc for the flying leap ability but tend to be 41 AP in FI with a mix of EK stuff and petty CHA and HP from racial and universal trees - higher DCs and more HP. I totally understand people taking meteor but now I'm taking Thunderstroke and Mass Hold for more group utility and personal safety (i.e no AOE hate). It's working fantastically in R10 quests and the raid diffs on Ghallanda PUGs. Sorc is a skilled based class. The skill is playing it well without totally spoiling everyone's fun; it takes A LOT of practice.

[Artos_Fabril]

The spell rotation is not a problem, the HUGE cooldown is. Sorcerer is suposed to cast faster than anything.
They didn't increase the cast time. You can still throw just as many spells per minute, just fewer of them are meteor storm. So it absolutely is the rotation.

[Matuse]

Like a couple seconds (literally) of cooldown on 1 spell is make or break for the entire class. These arguments based entirely on ludicrous hyperbole are tiresome.

[Atali]

Am missing a bit of spell power from Ravenloft belt nerf but it dosn't seem huge. Level 1 : map sonic burst to my mouse gaming key 1. That's the only crowd control needed to 30. 2nd key gets mapped to best aoe damage spell at level up to chain lightning. When i hit 20 I have to use two or three number keys to cast my draconic damage spells but since they do 4-20 times the damage of my chain lightning guess worth the hassle. Few points in EK tree and a shield keeps you alive and lets you run through most traps etc with the wind dance. Still seems a solid solo build for low/mid reaper. Scroll and hire healing can be a pain but you wont often get hit at all. Warlock is silly pre level 10 when you can easily outrun the reapers. Try rolling a first life life blaster lock and kiting around a doom reaper in Borderlands for giggles. So guess in response to original post sorc is no longer the main choice for fast levelling as pretty much all classes are now good. Depending on build and gear of course. Inquisitor still probably my favorite as get all the trap xp, can cope with most combat and works with all races/classes for easy past lives. Also when gets bit grindy can scroll forward your camera and turn DDO into a first person shooter. :)

[Miahoo]

Like a couple seconds (literally) of cooldown on 1 spell is make or break for the entire class. These arguments based entirely on ludicrous hyperbole are tiresome.

yeah ridiculous... and to think a little doublestrike and doubleshot change will make builds unplayble. people are crazy.... :rolleyes:

[cadaverash]

What they are not saying is that they TRed into Warlock to get DPS, or because Sorcerer lost its DPS. From the sound of it, they TRed into warlock because they weren't enjoying sorcerer much.



^^This^^

[Oliphant]

I have not had more class focused fun since they nerfed sorcs....

To clarify, I mean since they adjusted sorcs, I've been playing sorc and getting deeper into classed focused fun than I can remember in a long time.

[Kebtid]

Alright let me write it again!


Dc sorc.


Heroic is moot, sorcs spells since dice rework demolish heroic, sorc is viable solo up to r8 in most heroic content once it picks some spells up, when i was doing racials i did quite a few on r10 solo just for the fun of it, as a hybrid dc / damage caster, this was after the charm fix in reaper.
Early epic levels to middle, who cares, you get to 29 in a couple hours if you know what you are doing.
@cap and r10, high reaper raids, a sorc nuker brings nothing, it brought nothing , never will bring nothing beside pointless kiting.
A guildie did do most quests on r10 as sorc nuker but it was something akind personal challenge and to showcase power of sorc before nerf, when we were partying with him it affected our completition runs (slower average).

So i have another guildie who is doing opposite, playing it as dc caster, and he was a crucial part in completing some high skull raids (The nerf that hit him the most due to how complex gearing is was the spellpower nerf to positive, as he cannot serve as r10 healer incombat for melees now).

But when we party with a proper dc caster sorc, everything goes smoother, holds, necro, make the quests enormously faster.


Problem people have with that is really really simple.
To get to the point where your DC-s lands, requires time/effort and work put into a character as opposed to a fire sorc, which does not require as much.
Fire nuker sorc was brilliant for mid skulls to low skulls where most players gravitate to, same reason why favored soul is popular now, you have enough damage to finish fights, and you have enough selfhealing to heal yourself, and your dcs can work at most times.

People like low effort no investment builds with high return , same reason why alchemist was so popular, low effort, some bugs (cloack edf) and viola, brilliant for them.


That is ok, but imho if you want builds like that, lower skulls to your appropriate skill level, do not ask the game developers to make the builds viable in skulls you want them to be viable.

Again, dc sorc, is brilliant in high skull reapear runs.
I have never seen a run go slower with 1 brilliant dc sorc player.

This is not a alternative to playing the class, it is how it was played since the start.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

From a role-playing perspective - as a Newbie - I liked fire based spells in the first place much more than for example cold spells. I really do not like Winter in Real Life as much as I like Spring or Autumn, so fire has alwys been a natural choice for me.

From that role-playing perspective, I think it is fine to give Newbies exactly that : Fire. especially because of the proverbial Fireball spell. EVERYONE playing fantasy games knows the Fireball !

Snowballs are known from Real Life as well, but rather as something small, or as something BIG / HUGE rolling down from a mountain ...

The other spells are ... less good for immersion, like ( my names ) "Acid Ball" or "Force Ball" or ... "Electricity Ball", which on the other hand probably even exists in Real Life ...

So, from that perspective, it is totally okay for me, to give especially Newbies ith fire based spells something they can easily imagine. From experience from Real Life. (Or from movies.)

[KoobTheProud]

Again with this. These exact same threads over and over again.

High kill class gets reeled in. Some people hate it. Some people like it. Someone ALWAYS says "Not worth playing anymore" or "No one plays it now".

The truth is, every time I have seen a nerf over the past 10 years it is the same old arguments and this question pops up again.

Is the class worth playing?

It really depends on your approach to this game.

Both sides are correct because both sides are playing the class for different reasons.

If all you care about is having the highest DPS and killing the most, then you don't really care that much about the class itself and are only using it because it offers the correct combination of attributes to get a DPS that outstrips most of the other classes.

These people will feel the nerf made the class unplayable because they do not want to play a class that isn't THE TOP class.

If you really enjoy the class and how it works. If you enjoy the dynamics and options and play style it affords, then you will feel the class is still very viable. You will work around the nerf and realize that the class is still fun and fun is what you are after.

I have seen this to be true on every single class nerf.

Some people are going to reject the changes and quit the class. Some people are going to accept the changes and look to see how to work around it and make it work for them.

The post-nerf class is still viable, still playable, still fun. If you want to play it, you should and you will be very happy.

The post-nerf class isn't the most powerful anymore. If that is what you want, you should move on. Something else is most powerful now. Find it.

But all this arguing between the two isn't really going to change anything.

Both sides have valid points. Every one of you have valid points. You are both right, but that doesn't necessarily mean the other side is wrong.

This post should be pinned with a note to everybody to read it before they post about how a class was ruined by changes.

[Gniewomir]

Let me lay it out differently. What the post you're talking about said comes down to this:

* After sorcerer was nerfed, Cadaverash TRed into a warlock.

* Now that they have done so, they slightly miss the DPS they had as a sorcerer.

What they are not saying is that they TRed into Warlock to get DPS, or because Sorcerer lost its DPS. From the sound of it, they TRed into warlock because they weren't enjoying sorcerer much.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

P.S. And no, Sorcerer can't do everything a Warlock can better. Warlocks can be exceptionally powerful, they're just somewhat harder to build correctly.

Like i said, usually what people say in one sentence does make sense and is connected, not just babbling about random things. He said (quote) "Yeah, I TR'ed into a warlock after that nerf. " Either it's 1:1 000 000 chance of coincidence that suddenly right after nerf someone would find out that "nah, i never liked sorc, im gonna tr no matter if there'll be nerf or not" or there's connection between stuff he's saying. I'll repeat: we're talking about stuff said in the same sentence. And even assuming it's coincidence - why bother to even talk about it? If he tred without any reason related to the matter discussed in this thread, then who cares? It brings nothing to the conversation, it's just offtopic that might cause confusion for reasons i mentioned above.

Now, assuming it's not coincidence: if someone say he tr'ed from sorc after and (if it's not coincidence) cause of nerf, and then he say that he don't regret it, it's perfectly logical to assume it was right decision. With such assumption the statement "I miss the DPS it had" sounds more like "i miss the dps sorc had before nerf, thats why i decided to tr after nerf and i don't regret it cause now im doing better" rather than "i miss the dps sorc had after nerf but i don't regret it cause now my dps is even worse".

If someone tred into warlock cause he was not enjoying sorc and then he add "tred after nerf"... Well, i'm really surprised someone is surprised that someone else might think it's the reason why he tred.

PS: I'm not saying warlock can't be powerful. I didn't said sorc can do everything better. I said there's nothing lock can do that sorc can't. If you think otherwise name one thing that only warlock can do and it's impossible for sorc. And please, don't say anything like "lock can get +1 necro dc" when players can achieve dc high enough that +10 makes little difference cause your dc is high enough to make your spells almost no save anyway.

[HuneyMunster]

PS: I'm not saying warlock can't be powerful. I didn't said sorc can do everything better. I said there's nothing lock can do that sorc can't. If you think otherwise name one thing that only warlock can do and it's impossible for sorc. And please, don't say anything like "lock can get +1 necro dc" when players can achieve dc high enough that +10 makes little difference cause your dc is high enough to make your spells almost no save anyway.

Taint the Aura "Against targets marked by your Consume attack: Your melee, ranged and Eldritch Blast attacks reduce the Spell Resistance, PRR and MRR of the target by -2 for 10 seconds. The effect stacks up to 5 times."

[Singular]

Alright let me write it again!


Dc sorc.


Heroic is moot, sorcs spells since dice rework demolish heroic, sorc is viable solo up to r8 in most heroic content once it picks some spells up, when i was doing racials i did quite a few on r10 solo just for the fun of it, as a hybrid dc / damage caster, this was after the charm fix in reaper.
Early epic levels to middle, who cares, you get to 29 in a couple hours if you know what you are doing.
@cap and r10, high reaper raids, a sorc nuker brings nothing, it brought nothing , never will bring nothing beside pointless kiting.
A guildie did do most quests on r10 as sorc nuker but it was something akind personal challenge and to showcase power of sorc before nerf, when we were partying with him it affected our completition runs (slower average).

So i have another guildie who is doing opposite, playing it as dc caster, and he was a crucial part in completing some high skull raids (The nerf that hit him the most due to how complex gearing is was the spellpower nerf to positive, as he cannot serve as r10 healer incombat for melees now).

But when we party with a proper dc caster sorc, everything goes smoother, holds, necro, make the quests enormously faster.


Problem people have with that is really really simple.
To get to the point where your DC-s lands, requires time/effort and work put into a character as opposed to a fire sorc, which does not require as much.
Fire nuker sorc was brilliant for mid skulls to low skulls where most players gravitate to, same reason why favored soul is popular now, you have enough damage to finish fights, and you have enough selfhealing to heal yourself, and your dcs can work at most times.

People like low effort no investment builds with high return , same reason why alchemist was so popular, low effort, some bugs (cloack edf) and viola, brilliant for them.


That is ok, but imho if you want builds like that, lower skulls to your appropriate skill level, do not ask the game developers to make the builds viable in skulls you want them to be viable.

Again, dc sorc, is brilliant in high skull reapear runs.
I have never seen a run go slower with 1 brilliant dc sorc player.

This is not a alternative to playing the class, it is how it was played since the start.


I play an AOE air/cold sorc nuker and this rings true for me. In low reaper, my sorc clears mobs easily. In higher reaper, my sorc's dps is essentially meaningless and the melees are carrying me. In shiradi I can add a touch of CC through nerve venom that helps the melees out, but that's about it. And weak spot heals. And then I get one shotted and someone has to rez me.

Nuker sorcs aren't very effective in high reaper. I really love playing it though, but it kinda sucks that it just doesn't work in high reaper.

[nobodynobody1426]

I play an AOE air/cold sorc nuker and this rings true for me. In low reaper, my sorc clears mobs easily. In higher reaper, my sorc's dps is essentially meaningless and the melees are carrying me. In shiradi I can add a touch of CC through nerve venom that helps the melees out, but that's about it. And weak spot heals. And then I get one shotted and someone has to rez me.

Nuker sorcs aren't very effective in high reaper. I really love playing it though, but it kinda sucks that it just doesn't work in high reaper.

That is because all damage, including melee damage, is reduced by -92.4% at R10 and -89% at R8. The only "damage" that isn't reduced is stuff that deals 100% of a monsters max HP rendering it instantly a 0HP monster.

[adamkatt]

They can Tank about as well as a Bard. Bard is better DPS while "Tanking."

Temp HP is wasted with NPC damage output. Good for lower difficulty stuff though.

Range DPS. Meh, I guess it is still ok. Same DPS penalty as all the ranged builds now so... I'll give you that one.

Nope, not narrow. Just a class that was nuked from orbit because forumites hate everything they don't play. It went from an above average class that people liked at end game to pretty worthless at end game except to take the spot of the wizard. Honestly a Wizard and Warlock are almost interchangeable. I give the Wizard a slight advantage...slight.

Tank as a bard, thats just strange. I love playing a warlock tank, its fun. :)

[Ausdoerrt]

I play an AOE air/cold sorc nuker and this rings true for me. In low reaper, my sorc clears mobs easily. In higher reaper, my sorc's dps is essentially meaningless and the melees are carrying me. In shiradi I can add a touch of CC through nerve venom that helps the melees out, but that's about it. And weak spot heals. And then I get one shotted and someone has to rez me.

Nuker sorcs aren't very effective in high reaper. I really love playing it though, but it kinda sucks that it just doesn't work in high reaper.

Granted, I don't play high skulls, but from the discussion it seems like it's not a sorc-specific problem. If "all damage is reduced by -92.4%", this will make any nuking more or less useless. Conversely, instakills, CC (including tanking) and debuffs would become more useful. It's a design thing.

This kinda reminds me of pre-MOTU days when good CCers were worth their weight in gold in epic quests and raids (but required inordinate amounts of grind to be successful). And sorcs specced for holds and charms rather than DPS.

Granted, this may not be the way most people would like to play their sorcs, but then again, lots of things that work in low skulls don't work in high skulls. Reaper is very limiting like that, which is why it's not everyone's cup of tea.

[LurkingVeteran]

Granted, I don't play high skulls, but from the discussion it seems like it's not a sorc-specific problem. If "all damage is reduced by -92.4%", this will make any nuking more or less useless. Conversely, instakills, CC (including tanking) and debuffs would become more useful. It's a design thing.

This kinda reminds me of pre-MOTU days when good CCers were worth their weight in gold in epic quests and raids (but required inordinate amounts of grind to be successful). And sorcs specced for holds and charms rather than DPS.

Granted, this may not be the way most people would like to play their sorcs, but then again, lots of things that work in low skulls don't work in high skulls. Reaper is very limiting like that, which is why it's not everyone's cup of tea.

DCs also go up a bit in reaper and high-end nuking also requires grinding, last I looked a LGS set was the only way to get the most important stat - crit damage. Further, Air/Water Sorcs weren't impacted as much by the changes, they have always been mediocre AoE nukers. If you want max AoE burst, you need Meteor + Acid Well + DI SLAs, ideally on held mobs with No Mercy from Falconry. Getting the crit and DCs for this is very grindy though.

[Oliphant]

...last I looked a LGS set was the only way to get the most important stat - crit damage

Hard to fit in enough HP but I like 7 pieces of the Feywild Autumn set more than many people seem to. Autumn 7-set provides +15% legendary crit damage. People often say its no good but I think something like this work pretty well (not necessarily the best though):

Cloak of Autumn, Strap of Autumn Leaves, Celestial Insignia, Nocturne Ring, Gloryborne Gloves, Cladding of Dead Leaves (or other Autumn armor), Bottled Rainstorm. Sharn craftables like Collective Sight and Sunken Slippers can fill out the CHA and CON. Gear DCs from this are not maxed but still decent.

[AbyssalMage]

Tank as a bard, thats just strange. I love playing a warlock tank, its fun. :)
Strange, but I have been seeing more of them. Well more Bard's in general thanks to the Fey Tree, THF, and recent nerfs. Them and FvS have been the rage when I decide to join groups.

[slarden]

Hard to fit in enough HP but I like 7 pieces of the Feywild Autumn set more than many people seem to. Autumn 7-set provides +15% legendary crit damage. People often say its no good but I think something like this work pretty well (not necessarily the best though):

Cloak of Autumn, Strap of Autumn Leaves, Celestial Insignia, Nocturne Ring, Gloryborne Gloves, Cladding of Dead Leaves (or other Autumn armor), Bottled Rainstorm. Sharn craftables like Collective Sight and Sunken Slippers can fill out the CHA and CON. Gear DCs from this are not maxed but still decent.

Min/Max advice is reasonable for a dedicating raiding character. When it comes to questing since you run with different people with different playstyles min/max advice doesn't always work. Definitely go by how things work vs. what people say.

The 1-piece LGS is the key item which gives a very solid return for one gear slot (35%). The return on upgrading the once piece item to the 4-piece lgs is much lower because you are only get 24% more for those next 3 pieces unless people found a way to get more out of it than I get. This is because you only have 9 of the 12 augments material opposition and the other 3 are the once piece co-mingled.

I do mostly short-manning and soloing so I like to go into the quest with high hp, high prr, high mrr, but still with good dps. I am not currently running a sorc because I was mainly using my sorc for dps in raids and while it's a decent dungeon clearer the dps won't come close to a martial build for raids. I Tr'd because I quite simply had too many casters and most roles in a raid are dps.

Post-nerf I was running magewright + glass heart docent + chained elemental rings + 4 piece winter + 2 piece summer + 1 piece lgs and ash/ooze/salt offhand and it worked really well for me. I definitely noticed the drop off in dps from the change in rotation mostly (cooldown was biggest impact). I swapped my tier 1 and 2 ash LGS stick so my net loss was only 113 spellpower - painful but not the end of the world. At least for me the balance between dps, dc and survivability is the key when soloing or short-manning. Building for raids is different because teamwork offsets some of the build weaknesses that would crush you short-manning or soloing. The sorc felt redundant with my warlock and although sorc still has better dps 48.4 narrowed that gap a little and I like the overall toolset of warlock better for everything before boss fights so I kept my warlock. I generally don't bring my warlock to raids unless they happen to specifically need it for a role.

[Frezar14]

I still play my sorc, for now anyway. It certainly is weaker. People point out the cool down and/or belt. I think people tend to forget that this was a 3 prong nerf:

- no more belt spell power
- MS cool down increase
- MS maximum level decrease

Any one of these would be manageable but when you take all three it was a VERY significant nerf IMO. One I’m still trying to adjust to.

[Artos_Fabril]

I still play my sorc, for now anyway. It certainly is weaker. People point out the cool down and/or belt. I think people tend to forget that this was a 3 prong nerf:

- no more belt spell power
- MS cool down increase
- MS maximum level decrease

Any one of these would be manageable but when you take all three it was a VERY significant nerf IMO. One I’m still trying to adjust to.
It seems weird (not really, it's pretty clear from objective standpoint) that 2/3rds of "the sorc nerf that made them unplayable" affected one spell. Almost as if that one spell was clearly better than any of their other spells, and tellingly so much better than their other level 9 damage spells that it being brought back it line with them make sorcs "unplayable". It seems like if the whole class was held up by the crutch of a single spell, instead of railing against bringing that spell in line with the others, you'd want the class to be fixed.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

DPS sorcs are dead - we lost our spell power, the max caster lvl of MS, and the result was elemental sorcs were then murdered by the spell timer changes for EE/LE/LR - meteor swarm now takes forever, my old fire sorc rotation was MS + DBF + MS + DBF now it is MS + DBF + DBF + MS - this may seem equal but it is not, because of mobs saves - most mobs make their saves vs DBF and take 0 dmg, MS has a bludgeon that cannot be resisted by a reflex save - also, the max caster level being lowered makes it deal significantly less dmg, so what happens is mobs are alive much much longer. The only other viable element is ice and again, mobs save and take 0 dmg, no other spell 9th lvl has MS bludgeon - acid well, nope. way too long to cast if you're a nuker.

Look - its hard for people to understand but that's it: MS has 2 parts the fire and the bludgeon from the actual rocks hitting, because they're flaming meteor fragments. The fire part is resistable via reflex saves - everything saves vs it and most mobs in LE/EE/LR have improved evasion and take 0. The bludgeon cannot be resisted via a reflex save, only PRR would absorb it, so spamming MS chews away at groups of mobs that reflex save vs everything else, unless you single target them with a spell that has no reflex save, like finger or hold monster.

So sorc elemental nukers are dead - what people are playing now is Feydark DC casters which is a constant *sigh* - likely you will not see many sorcs in raids or high skull R, and if you do they'll be mass hold moster, finger, WotB, PK, and circle of deathing, not nuking.

I am playing a feydark sorc on HCL and I am one of the only lvl 30 sorcs on the server. Its exceedingly lame. But we have 50million paladins

This is not a surprise - paladins are immune to the 2 special champ disease/fear effects that are murdering everyone.

But it is exceedingly depressing sorcs are back on the 'special bus' with monks and warlocks and wizzy archmages, (oh and the bus driver is a drow bc they are the worst race to play presently)

[Artos_Fabril]

I am playing a feydark sorc on HCL and I am one of the only lvl 30 sorcs on the server. Its exceedingly lame. But we have 50million paladins
Disclaimer: This is a single snapshot at 22:03 PDT today, and is clearly not representative of the total, but it's also pretty clear that the class disparity is not nearly so extreme as your claim.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/464986814508433410/842990849596194867/unknown.png

[AbyssalMage]

Disclaimer: This is a single snapshot at 22:03 PDT today, and is clearly not representative of the total, but it's also pretty clear that the class disparity is not nearly so extreme as your claim.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/464986814508433410/842990849596194867/unknown.png
All I am going to say about HCL is that it has its own extremely specific META. The way you play. The way you approach a dungeon. Everything is drastically different.

[AbyssalMage]

It seems weird (not really, it's pretty clear from objective standpoint) that 2/3rds of "the sorc nerf that made them unplayable" affected one spell. Almost as if that one spell was clearly better than any of their other spells, and tellingly so much better than their other level 9 damage spells that it being brought back it line with them make sorcs "unplayable". It seems like if the whole class was held up by the crutch of a single spell, instead of railing against bringing that spell in line with the others, you'd want the class to be fixed.
MS > Other level 9 spells for a simple reason, 3 x AoE DD. Acid Splash is its closest competitor but is Conjuration (lol) and a single hit. Lit and Ice are single target /Frown.

Most Ice Sorc's that I know go this way because they still have best single target DPS which is all you have when they nerf you from orbit. But you have to cycle a lower level ice to break immunity unlike MS which breaks immunity on the first rock you hurl while the 2 x that follow deal increasing damage. Now it's slightlly more balanced on which Sorc you should play. Too bad the best answer was to buff the other 2 elements and do a complete revamp on Acid. But SSG needed revenue so the easiest way to do that is nerf everything people are playing so they switch classes/builds.

[nobodynobody1426]

It seems weird (not really, it's pretty clear from objective standpoint) that 2/3rds of "the sorc nerf that made them unplayable" affected one spell. Almost as if that one spell was clearly better than any of their other spells, and tellingly so much better than their other level 9 damage spells that it being brought back it line with them make sorcs "unplayable". It seems like if the whole class was held up by the crutch of a single spell, instead of railing against bringing that spell in line with the others, you'd want the class to be fixed.

They still screaming without realizing that every other high powered nuke on dedicated casters is 6s and 20 MCL. Like all the dev's did was bring Meteor Swarm down to the same standard power level that other level 8/9 spells have while keeping it's ridiculous damage dice intact. They also fixed a pseudo-bug where Meteor Swarm was being counted as both a fire and an earth spell and therefor losing 3CL/MCL from Capstone, so the effective reduction on Max Caster level is 7 not 10. The AoE immunity stripping on the first rock still works, the no-save force damage from the rocks till works and it still has the damage higher of any other heroic spell in the game, except possibly the other Wiz/Sorc spell Acid Well (21.5 damage per CL) which has it's own issues. The recent introduction of Fusible Scepter of Combustion and Impulse make dual element spellpower stupid easy to do now, just one in each hand and call it a day for element specific gearing.

Meteor Swarm: 1D3+1 Fire + 1D2+1 Blunt per CL per rock. We get 12 Fire and 10 Blunt or 22 damage per CL. That is crazy huge, almost double of what anyone else gets. Divines big spells are FireStorm (11.5 damage per CL), Ice Flowers (13 damage per CL) and Flame Strike (11 damage per CL) though both Flowers and Strike have MCL of 15.

To give an idea on the raw damage those huge damage dice make I'm going to compare it to the current King of MCL increases, FVS Firestorm.

Fire Sorc Meteor Swarm (6s recast)
Base: 20
Fire Savant: +3
Draconic Knowledge: +3
Dragonborn: +2 (will do seperate)
Total: 26/28
26 * 22 = 572 base damage, 28 * 22 = 616 base damage

FVS Firestorm (6s recast)
Base: 20
AoV: +15 (but only +9 CL)
Draconic Knowledge: +3
Dragonborn: +2 (separate)
Total: 38/40, I'm not sure I can actually hit 40 but I know I can get to 38 (20+9+5+3+1) and interesting note is that the extra 5 CL's from EA gives about the same ~15% damage increase as the +Crit from DI, but we'll go with it for now.

38 * 11.5 = 437 base damage, 40 * 11.5 = 460 base damage.

Druid Firestorm (6s recast), yes these guys get this spell, get immunity bypass and some CL/MCL's.
Base: 20
Herald: +3
Elemental Form: +3
Draconic Knowledge: +3
Dragonborn: +2 (separate)
Total: 29/31

29 * 11.5 = 333.5 base damage, 31 * 11.5 = 356.5 base damage


This is why anyone claiming "DPS Sorc is dead" has no idea what they are talking about. It is still far ahead of all other casters, it's just not an "easy button win" anymore like it was before. Previously all problems were solved by pressing Meteor Swarm once, maybe twice. Now Fire Sorcs have to actually think about the situation and possibly plan out an approach, like every other player / build in the game, instead of just pressing one button.

[Miahoo]

snip
All I understand from your post is that you have no idea how sorc is performing and you probably never played one.
You cannot compare it to other classes (fvs, druid, wiz..) the way you do as you don't get the versatile of spells, feats, defenses and playstyle as them.
I just wonder how you react when find out that sorc cast twice as fast as them... *shocking*

sorcs are easy button in some r1 heroic. that's it. but i guess that's all what people are doing nowadays...
(and still, meteor has nothing to do with it).

[nobodynobody1426]

All I understand from your post is that you have no idea how sorc is performing and you probably never played one.
You cannot compare it to other classes (fvs, druid, wiz..) the way you do as you don't get the versatile of spells, feats, defenses and playstyle as them.
I just wonder how you react when find out that sorc cast twice as fast as them... *shocking*

sorcs are easy button in some r1 heroic. that's it. but i guess that's all what people are doing nowadays...
(and still, meteor has nothing to do with it).

The only thing they reduced was Meteor Swarm, and did so to be in line with other high level spells... and you didn't get Meteor Swarm until level 18 in Heroics and it's 30 MCL didn't come into play until epics. Heroic Sorc before U48.4 is exactly the same as post U48.4, so... logic fail there buddy.

And before you say "buh muh belts!!!101010101", that effected all elemental casters and actually effected Sorc the least as it had the highest spell power to begin with. Going from 1300 to 1100 is a smaller hit (18.1%) then going from 1200 to 1000 (20%).

[rabidfox]

To give an idea on the raw damage those huge damage dice make I'm going to compare it to the current King of MCL increases, FVS Firestorm.
...
This is why anyone claiming "DPS Sorc is dead" has no idea what they are talking about. It is still far ahead of all other casters, it's just not an "easy button win" anymore like it was before. Previously all problems were solved by pressing Meteor Swarm once, maybe twice. Now Fire Sorcs have to actually think about the situation and possibly plan out an approach, like every other player / build in the game, instead of just pressing one button.
Nice math. I think people look at certain level brackets for other classes hitting hard and assume that they're strong at all level brackets which so isn't the case; especially in epics/end game.

[Miahoo]

The only thing they reduced was Meteor Swarm, and did so to be in line with other high level spells... and you didn't get Meteor Swarm until level 18 in Heroics and it's 30 MCL didn't come into play until epics. Heroic Sorc before U48.4 is exactly the same as post U48.4, so... logic fail there buddy.

And before you say "buh muh belts!!!101010101", that effected all elemental casters and actually effected Sorc the least as it had the highest spell power to begin with. Going from 1300 to 1100 is a smaller hit (18.1%) then going from 1200 to 1000 (20%).

please go back and read some of this thread. u clearly skipped it all and posted without reading any of it.

[nobodynobody1426]

Nice math. I think people look at certain level brackets for other classes hitting hard and assume that they're strong at all level brackets which so isn't the case; especially in epics/end game.

Well it's people complaining that their clearly over powered button isn't clearly overpowered anymore and then lashing out in hysteria. This was actually a convo with the devs, they are tracking metrics on builds and it's only a small portion of the population that keeps jumping builds every update. To them anything that isn't mechanically broken is "dead to them", which is the vast majority of builds in the game.

[Alled78]

They still screaming without realizing that every other high powered nuke on dedicated casters is 6s and 20 MCL. Like all the dev's did was bring Meteor Swarm down to the same standard power level that other level 8/9 spells have while keeping it's ridiculous damage dice intact. They also fixed a pseudo-bug where Meteor Swarm was being counted as both a fire and an earth spell and therefor losing 3CL/MCL from Capstone, so the effective reduction on Max Caster level is 7 not 10. The AoE immunity stripping on the first rock still works, the no-save force damage from the rocks till works and it still has the damage higher of any other heroic spell in the game, except possibly the other Wiz/Sorc spell Acid Well (21.5 damage per CL) which has it's own issues. The recent introduction of Fusible Scepter of Combustion and Impulse make dual element spellpower stupid easy to do now, just one in each hand and call it a day for element specific gearing.

Meteor Swarm: 1D3+1 Fire + 1D2+1 Blunt per CL per rock. We get 12 Fire and 10 Blunt or 22 damage per CL. That is crazy huge, almost double of what anyone else gets. Divines big spells are FireStorm (11.5 damage per CL), Ice Flowers (13 damage per CL) and Flame Strike (11 damage per CL) though both Flowers and Strike have MCL of 15.

To give an idea on the raw damage those huge damage dice make I'm going to compare it to the current King of MCL increases, FVS Firestorm.

Fire Sorc Meteor Swarm (6s recast)
Base: 20
Fire Savant: +3
Draconic Knowledge: +3
Dragonborn: +2 (will do seperate)
Total: 26/28
26 * 22 = 572 base damage, 28 * 22 = 616 base damage

FVS Firestorm (6s recast)
Base: 20
AoV: +15 (but only +9 CL)
Draconic Knowledge: +3
Dragonborn: +2 (separate)
Total: 38/40, I'm not sure I can actually hit 40 but I know I can get to 38 (20+9+5+3+1) and interesting note is that the extra 5 CL's from EA gives about the same ~15% damage increase as the +Crit from DI, but we'll go with it for now.

38 * 11.5 = 437 base damage, 40 * 11.5 = 460 base damage.

Druid Firestorm (6s recast), yes these guys get this spell, get immunity bypass and some CL/MCL's.
Base: 20
Herald: +3
Elemental Form: +3
Draconic Knowledge: +3
Dragonborn: +2 (separate)
Total: 29/31

29 * 11.5 = 333.5 base damage, 31 * 11.5 = 356.5 base damage


This is why anyone claiming "DPS Sorc is dead" has no idea what they are talking about. It is still far ahead of all other casters, it's just not an "easy button win" anymore like it was before. Previously all problems were solved by pressing Meteor Swarm once, maybe twice. Now Fire Sorcs have to actually think about the situation and possibly plan out an approach, like every other player / build in the game, instead of just pressing one button.

Firestorm is the best dps spell for fvs and cleric???
Never used it before the last divine spell pass... Now do you like it?

[rabidfox]

Firestorm is the best dps spell for fvs and cleric???
Never used it before the last divine spell pass... Now do you like it?

The targeting use to be really bad on it; it targets nicely now. There's still the issue that there's a slight delay after casting it before it lands (true with cometfall and flamestrike too) so if someone pulls/kites the pack while you're casting you pretty much hit nothing with the back to back to back AoE burst rotation.

[nobodynobody1426]

Firestorm is the best dps spell for fvs and cleric???
Never used it before the last divine spell pass... Now do you like it?

It's damage was still good (for a divine spell which isn't saying much) back then, just it's targeting was so bugged you had to cast at your feet. Now it's really good AoE fire damage and the targeting has been completely fixed, there is a still a 1s flight time though. On that note, most Divine AoE nukes aren't projectiles like Fireball but instead summon an effect above the target and then drop the effect on their heads. Instead of a 1s flight time from your hands to the target that the target can run into, it's a 1s time from above them downwards that they can run out of. CC and controlling monsters positioning is really important if you don't want half of your AoE attacks to miss completely.