New manyshot vs. Old manyshot

[IlIllI]

I tested the new manyshot to try and understand what is really happening.
Method used to measure: consumable arrows. Secondary stats: 15% ranged power (nerfed from 20% preU49).

Over a 60 second timed period:

New Manyshot = 7 clicks (3 to start with + 4 recharges) = 75 arrows used

Without manyshot = 68 arrows used.

This is consistent with the idea that the New manyshot isn't actually shooting 3 arrows (to replace 1) - it is actually shooting 3 arrows to replace 2 because the clickie takes 2 seconds to proc.

If the clickie had no effect on "normal" arrow firing - i.e. was a straight overlay - we should see a larger consumed arrow difference unless the manyshot clickie doesn't use arrows (which is not true, tested and new Manyshot consumes 3 arrows).

So the new Manyshot is actually only adding 1 extra arrow per click to output - however, the 3 arrows it shoots are +1 crit range and +1 crit mult and can doubleshot. Side note: doubleshot apparently does not consume extra arrows. Tested with 90.5% doubleshot; 5 arrows shot consumed...5 arrows.

Comparing to pre-U49 using the above consumed arrow throughput numbers:

1 minute

Old Manyshot: 72 base shots per minute. 120 DS added by Manyshot for 20 seconds = 28.8 arrows on top of that = 100.8 arrows . 52.8 of these arrows with 4xBAB ranged power

New Manyshot: 69 base shots per minute (base/feat based ranged alacrity reduced). 7 extra arrows added by 7 clickie manyshots (3 to start plus 4 recharged) = 76 arrows. 21 of these arrows have +1 crit range and crit mult.
So extra arrows depends on level:
L1 = 77.14 arrows. 21.32 of these arrows have +1 crit range and mult.
L10 = 87.4 arrows. 24.15 of these arrows have +1 crit range and mult.
L20 = 98.8 arrows, 27.3 of these arrows have +1 crit range and mult.

2 minute

Old Manyshot: 72 base shots per minutex2 = 144 arrows. 120 DS added by Manyshot for 20 seconds = 28.8 arrows on top of that = 172.8 arrows. 52.8 arrows with 4xBAB ranged power

New Manyshot: 69 base shots per minute (base/feat based ranged alacrity reduced) x2 = 138 arrows. 12 extra arrows added by 12 clickie manyshots (3 to start plus 4 recharged). All of these 150 arrows are doubleshot +1.5xBAB.
So extra arrows depends on level:
L1 = 152.25 arrows. 36.54 of these arrows have +1 crit range and mult.
L10 = 172.5 arrows. 41.4 of these arrows have +1 crit range and mult.
L20 = 195 arrows. 46.8 of these arrows have +1 crit range and mult.

As you can see here - a PreU49, pre Epic ranger would output more arrows over all scenarios except L20/2 minute combat. Ranged power adds, overall, are likely higher at low levels with old Manyshot but higher at higher levels for new Manyshot.

What about the BABx4 vs. +1 crit range mult?

For BAB 20 = L20:
PreU49 - the +80 ranged power is .8 more damage x3 (base bow multiplier) = 5.4x crit damage.
PostU49 - 1.5xBAB added to ranged power x4 multiplier = 5.2x crit damage

So crit damage per arrow (new vs. old manyshot) is fairly close, but the old Manyshot would yield more arrows in almost every scenario outlined above.

But my inescapable conclusion is that for under 20 - the new Manyshot is a major nerfing in every possible respect: worse burst damage, worse overall damage, fewer arrows in most scenarios etc.

Why? 2 reasons:

1) If you're low level, you aren't confirming the criticals all the time. Is it 50%? Less? either way, the confirmation percentage would affect overall damage dramatically. And vs. critters with fortification - the crits go away completely at low levels (undead, constructs etc). New Manyshot is heavily dependent on crit mult increases.

2) If you're higher level: because you could stack effects with the old manyshot. While old manyshot was active, you could have a guaranteed extra arrow with an extra 20% chance for a 3rd arrow - tacked onto the bonuses for sniper shot, aimed shot, executioner's shot, etc etc. The new manyshot: you cannot stack anything with it whatsover. Yes, you get a little back (presumably) with increased doubleshot, but the increased doubleshot is, at best, +45% at L30 vs. +120% with old Manyshot. Clearly better for long fights, clearly worse for burst and short fights. And burst will make for shorter fights, in general.

3) For super optimized, L29+ characters, the overall higher doubleshot and ranged power of old Manyshot was only an incremental benefit. If you have 350+ ranged power and 110%+ doubleshot to start with - +80 RP and +120 DS for 20 seconds isn't a big deal vs. +45 RP and +45 DS all the time with the new Manyshot clickie - and your high confirmation/high W/high base damage+bonus/high forti bypass damage benefits enormously from the many extra +crits.
More importantly: If you're doing R10 and/or raids and the bosses have millions of hps - the ability to put out 20 seconds of massive destruction doesn't really matter.

I'm building a spreadsheet to get a sense of what the actual numerical deltas might be - incorporating Cannith3b numbers as stand-ins for item +DS, RP etc and adding in feat and stat damage impact. That will be upcoming.

In the meantime - please let me know if I've made mistakes in the above or feed back on the crit confirmation area. Documentation on how precisely crit confirmation works is really scanty.

[anticlimax]

Comparing manyshots old and new is difficult because they have completely different roles now. That and the damage of old MS has been spread across the rest of bow combat so that needs to be recognised in comparisons. Also the changes to combat in general make the comparison even harder.

My opinion is that losing my bursts for a small increase in basic dps isn't worth it.

That said there is an interesting point you've brought up:



This is consistent with the idea that the New manyshot isn't actually shooting 3 arrows (to replace 1) - it is actually shooting 3 arrows to replace 2 because the clickie takes 2 seconds to proc.


This is an effect not uncommon where active abilities are concerned so maybe it's not a failing of MS but actives in general but basically there will be a point where using MS might actually reduce dps because the loss of an attack is not made up for by the damage the ability produces. Only the first shot of manyshot can doublestrike.

The point that this crossover happens is again hard to calculate but roughly speaking if doubleshot is 100% then manyshot will produce 4 shots with +1 threat & multiplier vs 4 shots for auto attack so already manyshot only has the +1 threat & multiplier as an advantage and at 150% doubleshot manyshot does 4.5 shots with +1 threat & multiplier vs 5 shots for auto attack.

Given that crit multiplier reaches some quite high levels already at cap, and that 2 seconds is slightly more than 2 attacks, 150% doubleshot may be enough to make MS a dps loss. Proving this needs some serious number crunching though.

So for pure dps MS may only be useful in conjunction with furyshots.

All this is on paper though and because of the features of ranged combat: constant whiffs & IPS requiring constant repositioning, I've found the new MS to be useful but not fantastic.

MS is better for non damage proc effects since those don't get multiplied by doubleshot.

btw... barcode, SC2 fan?

[mikarddo]

I tested the new manyshot to try and understand what is really happening.
Method used to measure: consumable arrows. Secondary stats: 15% ranged power (nerfed from 20% preU49).

Over a 60 second timed period:

New Manyshot = 7 clicks (3 to start with + 4 recharges) = 75 arrows used

Without manyshot = 68 arrows used.

This is consistent with the idea that the New manyshot isn't actually shooting 3 arrows (to replace 1) - it is actually shooting 3 arrows to replace 2 because the clickie takes 2 seconds to proc.

If the clickie had no effect on "normal" arrow firing - i.e. was a straight overlay - we should see a larger consumed arrow difference unless the manyshot clickie doesn't use arrows (which is not true, tested and new Manyshot consumes 3 arrows).

....


Much appreciate the work done here with a very clear presentation, thank you.

This part I would really like a Dev to comment on. It seems unintended that getting 3 arrows rather than 1 is negatively migitated by a delay so its actually only 3 arrows instead of 2.

I really hope that this is a mistake and further that it can and will be fixed.

[Steelstar]

To clarify: Manyshot's animation is intended to fire 3 arrows in 1.16x the amount of time a standard attack takes to fire 1 arrow, scaling with attack speed. (It should be slightly longer than a standard attack, but nowhere near twice as long as a standard attack).

That said, it's definitely doing that while moving, but it looks like the standing-still version may not be scaling properly with attack speed - We'll take a look at that.

[TitusOvid]

snip

Thx for the work, appreciated.

+1

Cheers,
Titus.

[WaxLyrical]

To clarify: Manyshot's animation is intended to fire 3 arrows in 1.16x the amount of time a standard attack takes to fire 1 arrow, scaling with attack speed. (It should be slightly longer than a standard attack, but nowhere near twice as long as a standard attack).

That said, it's definitely doing that while moving, but it looks like the standing-still version may not be scaling properly with attack speed - We'll take a look at that.

Just wondering if there are some other strange things going on with bows. I have a 6 ranger 1 rogue who fires 60 arrows in a minute with an ordinary longbow and exactly the same 60 arrows using sapphire sting with 10% ranged alacrity. Is that WAI please?

[Kielbasa]

Just wondering if there are some other strange things going on with bows. I have a 6 ranger 1 rogue who fires 60 arrows in a minute with an ordinary longbow and exactly the same 60 arrows using sapphire sting with 10% ranged alacrity. Is that WAI please?

good point. I thought the whole point of the adjustments was that speed adjustments, alacrity etc would boost the whole animation and give you the boost they claim to give rather than how they used to boost only half the animation.

[rabidfox]

Just wondering if there are some other strange things going on with bows. I have a 6 ranger 1 rogue who fires 60 arrows in a minute with an ordinary longbow and exactly the same 60 arrows using sapphire sting with 10% ranged alacrity. Is that WAI please?

Just checking, you don't happen to have a quiver of alacrity equipped, do you?

[WaxLyrical]

Just checking, you don't happen to have a quiver of alacrity equipped, do you?

Nope, I unequipped everything. Then I tried the same test equipping a 5% speed boost cloak and still 60 arrows in one minute for both bows. I just cant figure out what is going on.

[Coffey]

Just wondering if there are some other strange things going on with bows. I have a 6 ranger 1 rogue who fires 60 arrows in a minute with an ordinary longbow and exactly the same 60 arrows using sapphire sting with 10% ranged alacrity. Is that WAI please?

A 10% alacrity increase used to add 3 shots/min. Now it should be 6 shots/min if the new animation holds true.

[WaxLyrical]

A 10% alacrity increase used to add 3 shots/min. Now it should be 6 shots/min if the new animation holds true.

There does seem to be quite a gap between expectations and reality. I was surprised when some people said bow was good after U49, I guess the issue I have is that I am not brilliant at this game... When I used to hit Multishot I could kill most mobs and reapers in a room. Post U49 I can take down some mobs but if two or three reapers spawn or a champ or two, the chances are that I'll be quickly overwhelmed... and errr well dead.

[Alfhild]

Nope, I unequipped everything. Then I tried the same test equipping a 5% speed boost cloak and still 60 arrows in one minute for both bows. I just cant figure out what is going on.
Something someone might want to test.
Do the same test on a character who does NOT have rapid shot.
If Heroic Sapphire Sting does increase the rate of fire then that would indicate that Rapid Shot and Ranged Alacrity are no longer stacking which is a possibility since they did make a change to Rapid Shot.

Edit:
Just tried with and without Pinion on a naked L24 Ranger
Ordinary Bow: 61 shots/min
Pinion: 72/min
which is about the 20% increase expected

[Coffey]

There does seem to be quite a gap between expectations and reality. I was surprised when some people said bow was good after U49, I guess the issue I have is that I am not brilliant at this game... When I used to hit Multishot I could kill most mobs and reapers in a room. Post U49 I can take down some mobs but if two or three reapers spawn or a champ or two, the chances are that I'll be quickly overwhelmed... and errr well dead.

Yea it will take some getting used to especially if you havent practiced stance dancing.

Dont worry too much about it and just Dance! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-lpVPu4nDU)

[IlIllI]

Comparing manyshots old and new is difficult because they have completely different roles now. That and the damage of old MS has been spread across the rest of bow combat so that needs to be recognised in comparisons. Also the changes to combat in general make the comparison even harder.

My opinion is that losing my bursts for a small increase in basic dps isn't worth it.

Agreed - comparisons are hard hence my attempt to quantify the differences.

I do think for L29+, feat/tree/gear optimized - the changes are net positive because the +DS and +RP of manyshot is a fraction of the base capability. In this case, a higher permanent DS with comparable RP is a win particularly with the multiple added +crit multipliers.

But again, the problem is that it really seems that this is at the expense of making heroic and low level Epic weaker because the +DS and +RP of old Manyshot is proportionately a bigger impact.


MS is better for non damage proc effects since those don't get multiplied by doubleshot.

Supposedly all 3 shots of the new Manyshot are DS capable - according to the release notes.


btw... barcode, SC2 fan?

No, I started playing online games in the 1980s. Back then, one of the MUDs I would frequent was the UTexas pk MUD - and having a difficult to read name was a major benefit, especially if you changed it regularly ;)

[IlIllI]

To clarify: Manyshot's animation is intended to fire 3 arrows in 1.16x the amount of time a standard attack takes to fire 1 arrow, scaling with attack speed. (It should be slightly longer than a standard attack, but nowhere near twice as long as a standard attack).

That said, it's definitely doing that while moving, but it looks like the standing-still version may not be scaling properly with attack speed - We'll take a look at that.

Thank you.

The tests were performed while standing still thus is consistent with what you noted.

If 3 arrows are to be shot in 1.16 seconds vs. 1 second/arrow unmodified, then for the 1st minute/7 Manyshot clicks, there should be 73 arrows with 0 ranged alacrity and 84 with the 15% ranged alacrity used in the test.

So the delta is non-trivial.

[IlIllI]

There does seem to be quite a gap between expectations and reality. I was surprised when some people said bow was good after U49, I guess the issue I have is that I am not brilliant at this game... When I used to hit Multishot I could kill most mobs and reapers in a room. Post U49 I can take down some mobs but if two or three reapers spawn or a champ or two, the chances are that I'll be quickly overwhelmed... and errr well dead.

As I noted above: I think the new system is better for L29+ maxed out chars but is worse for L25 and below - and particularly bad for mid/low heroic.

Combined with the power-downs for adrenaline, it is catastrophic.

I really don't see any point in playing bow/dex ranger anymore - it is clear that 2wf ranger or melee is much better.

Time will tell if the changes affect actual usage. I've gone in 20-ish legendary raid groups and have seen exactly 1 other bow/dex ranger out of the 220+ slots - for that matter, that was the only ranger period besides myself.

20-ish isn't a huge number but 1 out of 220+ seems pretty low. But to be fair, there weren't many crossbow users either.

It just may be that ranged outside of alchemist suck for raids.

[IlIllI]

Yea it will take some getting used to especially if you havent practiced stance dancing.

Dont worry too much about it and just Dance! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-lpVPu4nDU)

I'm assuming you're referring to Improved Precise vs. Archer focus?

I do that already; the +RP of Archer focus is pretty critical but it doesn't change the fundamentals. Carryover of AF stacks is great - it is one reason I use Aimed Shot rather than Merciful as it adds +3 AF stacks.

[anticlimax]

Agreed - comparisons are hard hence my attempt to quantify the differences.

Indeed and I should give credit to you for doing that, thanks.

I will say that pre-49 87 shots/min was the cap and when the changes were on preview people posted that the max attack speed without action boost attack speed was 76, so you getting 68 shots/min now seems very low, and something even more troubling is that the release notes state that we should be able to hit 87 with just rapid shot and ranged alacrity 15%. Maybe something is bugged.


I do think for L29+, feat/tree/gear optimized - the changes are net positive because the +DS and +RP of manyshot is a fraction of the base capability. In this case, a higher permanent DS with comparable RP is a win particularly with the multiple added +crit multipliers.

It really depends on build. For me as a L20 monk I've lost a lot more than has been given back. The manyshot change was compensated for but the loss of 10k stars wasn't (furthermore 10k stars was a lot more powerful for a pure monk than it was for other monkchers).


But again, the problem is that it really seems that this is at the expense of making heroic and low level Epic weaker because the +DS and +RP of old Manyshot is proportionately a bigger impact.

Agreed.


Supposedly all 3 shots of the new Manyshot are DS capable - according to the release notes.

Ah ok & yes you're right, tested this today. I missed the change from the preview where the devs were seemingly adamant that only the first shot of the 3 would be DS capable.


No, I started playing online games in the 1980s. Back then, one of the MUDs I would frequent was the UTexas pk MUD - and having a difficult to read name was a major benefit, especially if you changed it regularly ;)

Wow, now that's oldschool. Respect.

[Coffey]

I'm assuming you're referring to Improved Precise vs. Archer focus?

I do that already; the +RP of Archer focus is pretty critical but it doesn't change the fundamentals. Carryover of AF stacks is great - it is one reason I use Aimed Shot rather than Merciful as it adds +3 AF stacks.

Its a high paced play style to say the least but it is challenging and fun when everything clicks.

Ranger is overly complicated now with the stances. Aimed Shot is great to get the ball rolling on AF RP. Tried it yesterday for the first time and it makes life a lot easier.

Merciful Shot is a good because it scales with RP and it adds to the damage output although it is situational.