New doublestrike system - things you haven't thought about

[stricek]

Hi,

New doublestrike system has been implemented so that we get less additional hits and effects because they cause lag.
You thought of a way that would make final output the same but with less actions and that is to multiply the damage when doublestrike happens.
And that's pretty much correct.
So whatever I mention below is not about the damage.

What you failed to think about is that this game offers SOOOO MANY other things on hit that are not just damage.
Let me name several things that I can think of from the top of my head and can you tell us how you'll fix these things so we don't feel nerfed...
Nerfing = people losing interest and leaving(I'm having trouble finding parties as it is, don't just add to it)


I think that everything can be summed up into 2 groups:

1. Procs that happen on hit - math should be very simple, just multiply the effect when doublestrike happens
Examples:
1.1. Stat draining on hit - should be multiplied same as damage
1.2. Applying stuff like Vulnerable on hit - stacks should be multiplied

2. Procs that happen on crit or on vorpal or those "there's small chance that * will happen on hit" - this is where math gets a bit trickier
Examples:
2.1. Effects that have short time - solution might be to prolong the time for a bit
Examples : Balanced attacks(make the enemies tripped for 3 instead 2 seconds)
Improved deception, Shadow mastery on roll 20 - either prolong it or make it happen even on roll 19?
And many more...
2.2. Effects that apply something or stacks - stat draining, applying vulnerable, etc... If someone crits 15-20 they will feel quite a big loss not having
that additional attack.
Examples : Everything already mentioned before

3. Things that I can't think of at this moment...?


As mentioned at the beginning, a reply from the staff would be very nice.
Just inform us whether you have taken all this into account but you haven't had the time to make all the changes...
Or you didn't really think about it(it happens)...
Or you did think about it but you don't plan to make any changes...

Thank you!

[ChrisTOTG]

What you failed to think about is that this game offers SOOOO MANY other things on hit that are not just damage.


EVERYONE thought about it and there have been endless threads here and on reddit. That's why it's already been fixed.


Oh, hang on... I'm verifying that... Sorry! Apparently everyone knew about it and posted on forums but it's NOT being fixed. Hope you didn't like procs cuz they are no longer viable for characters with any significant amount of doublestrike.

Proc-based gameplay is now only available on Youtube.

[stricek]

Everybody should just calm down.

If any of you come from the coding world you would know that things like this happen.
Let's all be humans and let's give devs our input so they can take all things into account.

It's not devs' intention to screw things up.

They are trying to make things better for us cause we all complain about the lag, etc...
They didn't just come up with an idea let's nerf doublestriking just so we can give ourselves more to do...

And this thing with procs is easily corrected, you just increase the % or multiply the values.

So people, let's not give them hard time.

Fighting and arguing is never the solution...

[FengXian]

Everybody should just calm down.

If any of you come from the coding world you would know that things like this happen.
Let's all be humans and let's give devs our input so they can take all things into account.

It's not devs' intention to screw things up.

They are trying to make things better for us cause we all complain about the lag, etc...
They didn't just come up with an idea let's nerf doublestriking just so we can give ourselves more to do...

And this thing with procs is easily corrected, you just increase the % or multiply the values.

So people, let's not give them hard time.

Fighting and arguing is never the solution...

They already said increasing the % is off the table since they need less procs overall to fix lag.

Why values didn't get multiplied beats me though (wouldn't have fixed it all but would have helped).

Also, it's generally good to find a solution before going live with the update...

[ChrisTOTG]

Everybody should just calm down.

If any of you come from the coding world you would know that things like this happen.
Let's all be humans and let's give devs our input so they can take all things into account.

It's not devs' intention to screw things up.

They are trying to make things better for us cause we all complain about the lag, etc...
They didn't just come up with an idea let's nerf doublestriking just so we can give ourselves more to do...

And this thing with procs is easily corrected, you just increase the % or multiply the values.

So people, let's not give them hard time.

Fighting and arguing is never the solution...


I do come from that world, and I understand the issues as described by the devs.

But there are two main problems here:

First: non-damage procs ranging from vorpal to negative levels have been nerfed by the amount of doublestrike that's been lost. At high levels that's quite a lot - easily half, and much more with twf. Some of those can easily be fixed by increasing the magnitude of the effect (more negative levels?) but some can't (either you do or don't land that vorpal hit, or CC, or improved deception, etc!).

Second: The procs that need fixing actually have to be fixed. There are ample cases of bugs and excessive nerfs that are never, ever fixed. Of course there are many reasons for this, such as the size of the team and their need to make new content. But as a player, I don't care about that. I care about my gameplay experience!



So here's a very realistic situation: I want to land more improved deception hits because that's how my ranged rogue works. At my current level I can get 50% doubleshot. That means I have 1.5 chances to proc deception every time I shoot someone. Now I only have 1 chance. That will reduce my damage significantly. Now add tendon cut. It's great to slow people down and also have sneak attacks - but now instead of 1.5 chances to proc tendon cut I again have only 1 chance.

Now there are ways to adjust those procs, like increasing the chance significantly and adding a cooldown (so they happen sooner but also less frequently). But I haven't seen any response from a dev explaining if or when those changes will occur.

[Thar]

Everybody should just calm down.

If any of you come from the coding world you would know that things like this happen.
Let's all be humans and let's give devs our input so they can take all things into account.

It's not devs' intention to screw things up.

They are trying to make things better for us cause we all complain about the lag, etc...
They didn't just come up with an idea let's nerf doublestriking just so we can give ourselves more to do...

And this thing with procs is easily corrected, you just increase the % or multiply the values.

So people, let's not give them hard time.

Fighting and arguing is never the solution...

Some of us do come from a professional coding world and... there is always QA to catch these sort of things. it's no excuse, sorry. And some people have provided technical solutions for better data compression, etc.

[Alizar]

I think this could be good for the game. Everything needs to be scaled back as it was out of control. You can always scale back difficulty right?

[Zennez]

EVERYONE thought about it and there have been endless threads here and on reddit. That's why it's already been fixed.


Oh, hang on... I'm verifying that... Sorry! Apparently everyone knew about it and posted on forums but it's NOT being fixed. Hope you didn't like procs cuz they are no longer viable for characters with any significant amount of doublestrike.

Proc-based gameplay is now only available on Youtube.

Sounds like someone badly needs a Proc-tologist... better get that smelly thing checked.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Actually someone did think of this. The devs mentioned they recognized this was an issue.
I (not a dev) explicitly talked about it as well.


I've noticed a recurring concern about the significant nerf to non damage procs (shiradi, neg lvl, paralysis, vorpal/banishing/smiting, etc).

These attacks seem to fall into three categories:
1. Things that proc some arbitrary % of the time (shiradi)
2. Things that proc on all hits (paralyzers etc)
3. Things that proc some of the time based on attack roll (on crit or vorpal etc)

Each of these probably require a different adjustment to address the nerf.

1. Things that proc some arbitrary % of the time proc more often based on multiattack probabilty. eg. 100% multiattack gives shiradi 13.5% proc chance. (.93^2).
2. Things that proc on all hits get additional procs added to the queue based on multiattack %. While this is exactly what you're getting rid of, the fact this may be a smaller quantity may keep it below a problem threshold.
3. Things that proc some of the time based on attack roll... mmm... uhh... I got nothing.

Not that it's NOT a problem, just highlighting that just because it's unresolved, doesn't mean thought hasn't been given to it.

[valkrei]

Hi,

New doublestrike system has been implemented so that we get less additional hits and effects because they cause lag.
You thought of a way that would make final output the same but with less actions and that is to multiply the damage when doublestrike happens.
And that's pretty much correct.
So whatever I mention below is not about the damage.

What you failed to think about is that this game offers SOOOO MANY other things on hit that are not just damage.
Let me name several things that I can think of from the top of my head and can you tell us how you'll fix these things so we don't feel nerfed...
Nerfing = people losing interest and leaving(I'm having trouble finding parties as it is, don't just add to it)


I think that everything can be summed up into 2 groups:

1. Procs that happen on hit - math should be very simple, just multiply the effect when doublestrike happens
Examples:
1.1. Stat draining on hit - should be multiplied same as damage
1.2. Applying stuff like Vulnerable on hit - stacks should be multiplied

2. Procs that happen on crit or on vorpal or those "there's small chance that * will happen on hit" - this is where math gets a bit trickier
Examples:
2.1. Effects that have short time - solution might be to prolong the time for a bit
Examples : Balanced attacks(make the enemies tripped for 3 instead 2 seconds)
Improved deception, Shadow mastery on roll 20 - either prolong it or make it happen even on roll 19?
And many more...
2.2. Effects that apply something or stacks - stat draining, applying vulnerable, etc... If someone crits 15-20 they will feel quite a big loss not having
that additional attack.
Examples : Everything already mentioned before

3. Things that I can't think of at this moment...?


As mentioned at the beginning, a reply from the staff would be very nice.
Just inform us whether you have taken all this into account but you haven't had the time to make all the changes...
Or you didn't really think about it(it happens)...
Or you did think about it but you don't plan to make any changes...

Thank you!

I was able to do a quick test with my twf ranger that used blitz. I used to be able to get blitz to max 10 stacks very quickly, now not so much if at all. The changes really put the hurt on that capstone destiny. The best fix would be to start at a higher count on blitz and add time it stays on that count before it lowers. This was already a little bit of an issue because on a lot of quests there are moments with dramatic down time in which you could loose the whole count. VOD, Dryad, High Reapers and lots more.

multiplying some of those stacks you mention above would be the best fix. There are a lot of melee abilities that need rebalanced or worked. Most enhancement or destinies do not give you enough PRR or hit points.

Other fix recommendations not related to patch..

Old chain quests, where you ran outside back inside ect ect, can those not be fixed or changed in some way? On hardcore I get *** out of a few favor or end reward because of that.

[Singular]

Rats. I thought this thread was actually going to be about something I haven't thought about.

[Deathlylife]

I kind of like how the changes give the different ranged combat styles a new definition and balances them out somewhat. Doubleshot inflation has lead to one ranged style dominating over the others without any clear trade-offs.

Old:
Bows were burst dps if at all relevant beyond flavor with low procs (~2-3 procs)
Throwers were the clear winners for high damage and solid proc chances (~3-4 procs)
GXBow was good damage but low procs (~2-3 procs)
Inquisitive was good damage with low/good procs but mostly for a non-damage class to get damage (~2-4 procs)
Repeaters, wait did these even exist beyond level 4? (~3-6 procs)

New:
Bows are TBD, too many changes to know how they will fall overall (1 proc)
Throwers will be high damage with low proc rate (1 proc)
GXBow will be good damage with low proc rate (1 proc)
Inquisitive will be good damage with good proc rate (2 proc)
Repeaters now have a niche of lower damage with the highest proc rate (3 proc)

This looks to be a very good thing of reigning in the thrower overlords and making each ranged combat style a little unique. Non-damage procs aren't dead, they now require a playstyle choice to obtain. Throwers seem the most affected, they don't lose their highest damage but lost their good proc rate. They are no longer the clear winner with the best of both worlds. Now there will be a trade-off, damage or procs per attack cycle based on combat style choice. People seem focused on what they are playing and not how it affects the entire field. I think it is an overall Nerf to throwers (personal opinion that it is deserved) but a relative buff to repeaters and to a lesser extent inquisitive and GXBow (no longer a clear loser on proc chance while also lacking dps). I also think it is an overall buff to bows but not quite sure were they will end up until a lot more play testing is done. This brings the playing field together so hopefully one style does not continue being so clearly dominate over the others.

I focus on ranged here because that seems to be the loudest group speaking out against the multi-hit changes (nerve venom seems to be the focus/rally point but not the only one affected).

[ChrisTOTG]

Rats. I thought this thread was actually going to be about something I haven't thought about.

Nope. It's the same thread that a hundred people have posted: "Hey wait a minute, isn't this going to massively nerf core gameplay for a ton of builds?"

[Tsutti]

First: non-damage procs ranging from vorpal to negative levels have been nerfed by the amount of doublestrike that's been lost. At high levels that's quite a lot - easily half, and much more with twf.[/I]
I don't think this is quite correct, in order for the nerfing to be by half you would need 100% doublestrike. A twf cannot attain 100% for mainhand AND offhand, therefore it is less of a nerf for twf than other styles and for it to be nerfing by 50% for other melees, said melee must have 100% doublestrike.

Also while it nerfs procs compared with previously, it does buff repeating xbows and twf relative to other styles because they will now be much better for stacking procs compared with other styles than they were before.



I was able to do a quick test with my twf ranger that used blitz. I used to be able to get blitz to max 10 stacks very quickly, now not so much if at all. The changes really put the hurt on that capstone destiny. The best fix would be to start at a higher count on blitz and add time it stays on that count before it lowers. This was already a little bit of an issue because on a lot of quests there are moments with dramatic down time in which you could loose the whole count. VOD, Dryad, High Reapers and lots more.
At least legendary dreadnought is already a suboptimal dps destiny so it's not a huge concern because not many people are running it, but they definitely need to do something so blitz at least makes the destiny viable. I doubt they will until the full on destiny pass though because at this point, it's more or less pointless to try to do much fiddling with destinies when we're supposedly so close to a complete destiny reinvention.

They did alter adrenaline and hunt's end for U49, but these were primary destinies people are currently running and they were adjusting only the numbers of these specific abilities so they hopefully don't become too strong for melee with the doublestrike changes, where I imagine that fixing blitz at this point would require more than just number changes.

[Stormraiser]

Some of us do come from a professional coding world and... there is always QA to catch these sort of things. it's no excuse, sorry. And some people have provided technical solutions for better data compression, etc.

Agree Thar.

I think this was very obvious when the early patch notes removed offhand doublestrike and didn't mention what would be in place of them for enchantments and past lives that provided that benefit. When you have these huge changes announced, you are always very careful to mention everything that will be impacted by it and how it will be addressed. This is done to prevent and mitigate a lot of the negative backlash by already having answers ready. As seen in the first patch notes that feature these changes, many of the basic downstream impacts were no mentioned at all.